Kansas abortion doctor killed in church

Once again the true face of religion bears it's ugly head. Like the pedophile priests of Ireland, the murderer will probably get an easy time and treatment like a hero.

Moderator: References to pedophile priests are of course irrelevant to this discussion. Another poor contribution from you.

you can have your own opinion on abortion but those "christian" fanatics are no better than talibans...

Like the pedophile priests of Ireland, the murderer will probably get an easy time and treatment like a hero.

Sure, just Paul Hill, the murderer of an abortion doctor in Pensacola, Florida, in 1994. Oh, that's right; you can't. He was executed in the state's electric chair.

So much for the hero's treatment.

The above should read: "Sure, just ASK Paul Hill..."

It used to be thought of that church was a place of sanctuary.

This is why the term "pro-life" should not be applied to the movement that inspires killers such as the ones who seek out and kill doctors and staff who provide abortions.

Just as important, those who provide abortions must now be seen as extremely courageous, in light of the crazed radical ultra-conservatives who target them.

This has got nothing to do with pro-life. This is pro-choice vs anti-choice.

You've got to love a philosophy that aims to "save lives" by taking the lives of others. Talk about a messed up ideology. Can't blame "Christian fanatics" either, because those sort of actions certainly aren't following any Christian teachings. This is just fundamentalism, based on 'pro-life' and devoid of all other reasoning. As Franz75 put it, no better than the Taliban.

franz75 at 07:32 AM JST - 1st June you can have your own opinion on abortion but those "christian" fanatics are no better than talibans...

You are correct, I am so sick and tired of these fanatical christians and their murderous ways. All those types need to be labeled as terrorist and hunted down.

The insanity of the far right religious murders need to end!

This terrorist will be hailed as a hero by the far right. He and those that support him need to be put away for the rest of their sick lives!

Pukey2 at 08:10 AM JST - 1st June This has got nothing to do with pro-life. This is pro-choice vs anti-choice.

These terrorist are sick pro-lifers that need to be hunted down. These are the extreme wing of the far right religious pro-life movement. Just like the extreme fanatics of Islam.

This needs to end!

All those types need to be labeled as terrorist and hunted down.

The man who killed this doctor was not operating as a complete loner. He was known by others in the so-called "pro-life" community. He had to draw some inspiration from some of these arch-conservatives. I have no doubt that some people will come forward and say that this guy had expressed his desire to take out Doctor Tiller -- more than once.

The United States legal authority needs to go after these guys and the folks that support and charge them with Conspiracy charges. The more of these nutz that are hunted down and prosecuted the better America will be.

I bet you that there would be some high ranking far right wingers caught up in the arrests.

When doctors are totally intimidated, we can expect more babies with Downs and other birth defects, more babies born to unwed teen mothers, more conceived through rape or incest, etc. These kids will come into the world with six strikes against them. People need to remember what things were like before the Supreme Court ruled on Rowe vs. Wade -- back-alley abortions and self-performed D&Cs with coat hangers where women died of infection, bled to death or were rendered permanently sterile. As opposed to the US with its hillbilly-style justice, even countries with Catholic majorities in Europe have adopted sensible laws concerning abortion.

As opposed to the US with its hillbilly-style justice, even countries with Catholic majorities in Europe have adopted sensible laws concerning abortion.

That, coupled with statist cradle to grave welfare policies means each and every one of them is staring at reproduction rates which will effectively leave control of Europe to its recent Mohammedan immigrants within a hundred years time.

deta.

Murder is murder. Premeditated murder warrants the death penalty.

That, coupled with statist cradle to grave welfare policies means each and every one of them is staring at reproduction rates which will effectively leave control of Europe to its recent Mohammedan immigrants within a hundred years time.

Yes. This is probably why blacks are in such firm control in the US.

Seriously, though, I can't see that this has much to do with the killing of Dr. Tiller. This man died because some idiot with a gun believed he was on a mission from God. Maybe your God. Not mine, if I have one. Probably not Dr. Tiller's.

Whether God exists or not, we choose our gods and our gods tell us what we want to hear and what we think we need to hear. The miscreant in this case chose a god that gave him license to kill.

Can't blame "Christian fanatics" either, because those sort of actions certainly aren't following any Christian teachings. This is just fundamentalism...

Yes, but the fanatics believe they are following scripture, as they interpret it.

His murder was a crime. and I hope the murderer is punished accordingly. There is no place in the christian theology that accepts this kind of behavior and anyone that thinks differently needs to carefully read the words of Jesus as recorded in the new testament.

That being said, Mr. Tiller was no hero, nor was he brave and courageous. He was a murderer in his own right, routinely taking the lives of perfectly viable babies due to the weak and anemic laws of america that fail to protect our most vulnerable members. It is the height of hypocrisy when a society charges the murderer of an unborn baby with 2 murders and allows men like Mr. Tiller to snuff those lights out with impunity.

Oh my, the leftist loonies are out in force today.

So one murder, which is not excused by anyone, and the whole pro-life movement is "no better than the Taliban".

Yeah, right. Emotion and hysterical slogans over reason and facts.

The democratic land of the free & land of the brave, a land where a woman’s choice to safely terminate a pregnancy is being curtailed by religious lunatics. This lunatic was free to believe in his chosen religion & was also free to buy a gun, but he didn’t believe women should have the freedom to make their own choices, he believe that Dr. Tiller had a freedom to believe what he was doing was right. I just wish that Americans could stand outside their defensive positions for once & see their country as we do. The saviours of the world come from a land that is out of control. Ironic to say the least.

I wonder if this man yelled out "God is Great" when he blasted the poor doctor away. By the sounds of some of the posts here he did. Actually I believe he just is so against abortion that committing this crime he was justified. At least he didn't suicide belt it and take out other non involved parties. But still the man is a jerk for killing because of what he believed in. I hope this suspect is the right guy and they hang him.

A SS soldier killed a Gestapo one.

Evil brings more evil. Hatred creates more hatred. Only way to stop this cycle of violence is to put on things like peace, love, joy, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, patience and self control, within ourselves and in interacting with one another. It is promised that victory belongs to those who follow such advice. Murder of any kind is an evil act. No one has a right to choose to murder.

This is probably why blacks are in such firm control in the US.

Planned Parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger, openly espoused racist views.

Maybe you should look into her writings.

And then see what black pro-lifers have to say about the issue.

Since African-American women are something like 6 times more likely to avail themselves of an abortionist's services it is your side that has to answer to the charges of "genocide."

Since African-American women are something like 6 times more likely to avail themselves of an abortionist's services it is your side that has to answer to the charges of "genocide."

Isn't this thread about a murder of a doctor whose patients sought out his services? And what's your source?

According to Center for Disease Control statistics, blacks account for 13% of the population in the U.S. and black women make up 37% of women who undergo abortions.

this is sick. first of all, I am pro-choice, but I still have respect for those who are pro-life because basically what they want is not really a bad thing, unless however you are a young girl stuck with an unwanted baby.

Today however, I have decided that if this person is to be treated as a hero, I'll drop my support for the pro life crowd.

You know, Obama said it best and that is to see what we can do to stop young girls from getting pregnant in the first place.

You know, Obama said it best and that is to see what we can do to stop young girls from getting pregnant in the first place.

Skipthesong, that's just a handy throw-away line mouthed by a politician, and the same thing political candidates have been saying since this issue became a hot potato. Teen pregnancies fluctuate, but there are still millions of them (including the daughter of the governor of Alaska). But it's not just kids -- there are married women whose husband got laid off last Friday when his company went bust, and just realized that they can't afford a kid any more -- let alone put food on the table. I don't think there's a big difference, when it's all said and done, with the policy permitting "economic abortion" in Japan (ostensibly illegal but widely practiced) and what goes on in the U.S.

Sez,

This man died because some idiot with a gun believed he was on a mission from God.

I will not be at all surprised if we hear that from the shooter after he is caught. I can't help but wonder, however, if the guy really believed to be on a mission from God, why did he run away afterward?

Taka

I will not be at all surprised if our boy Obama uses this to try and repeal the 2nd Amendment,close down churches, and outlaw pickup trucks.

There. Excitable enough for everbody?

Reports say the killer was wanted by the FBI, is an ex-con and member of an anarchist, anti-gov't group.

But I'm sure the Left is gonna play fast, loose and very selective with all of that.

teleprompter,

Maybe I should look into Margaret Sanger's writings, but I doubt that they have much to do with the killing of Dr. Tiller, albeit perhaps slightly more than your idle speculation on the Islamic take-over of Europe.

I don't think "my side" has to argue charges of genocide. But I would be curious to know what you think my side is. If I have a side, I sure would like to know.

I believe that lives inside the womb are not persons. However, I think that society is free to define them as such--based on some criteria regarding viability outside the womb. I would stipulate, however, that in order to do so, society must be able and willing to pay the medical costs and the costs for future child care if women do not want their children. To do otherwise forces women into positions in which not only must they bear children, they must parent them as well. When a woman is punished for daring to conceive an unwanted child, the unwanted child grows up as a punishment.

Now what are the sides again and which side am I on? And why do you persist in dichotomous argumentation?

Taka313,

I suppose he ran away to escape man's punishment, to find some safe harbor to await The Rapture.

But I'm sure the Left is gonna play fast, loose and very selective with all of that.

Well maybe they can learn a trick or two from your posts, then again probably not.

I read this about Dr. Tiller:

When George Tiller was young he dreamed not of being one of the most visible and strident advocates for abortion rights, but of becoming a dermatologist.

The 67-year-old physician, who was shot and killed Sunday in his church, had said his path was altered by a 1970 plane crash that killed his father, mother, sister and brother-in-law.

The former Navy flight surgeon was left with his father's family practice in Wichita, and he soon learned a secret. One of his father's patients asked him whether he, like his father, would perform abortions.

At first, Tiller said, he did not believe his father had risked his medical license by performing then-illegal abortions. But after the Supreme Court's landmark Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortions in 1973, Tiller began providing them.

If abortion were outlawed, it's reasonable to presume those seeking to terminate their pregnancies would again seek out the services of an illegal provider. Certainly Dr. Tiller could have moved his practice to a safer locale, but that would have left pregnant women in Kansas and surrounding states, since I read he had patients from Oklahoma as well, with no licensed health care professional to tend those who did not wish to carry their pregnancies to term.

I don't want to play fast and loose with statistics like others, but a woman's own health is one reason why she might seek a late-term abortion. Now endangering a mother's life might not be a sufficient reason for the male shooter to find abortion permissible, but then he's never going to walk in her shoes.

teleprompter,

Reports say the killer was wanted by the FBI, is an ex-con and member of an anarchist, anti-gov't group.

But I'm sure the Left is gonna play fast, loose and very selective with all of that.

Can you define the Left or does it just represent everything you disagree with? Are you sure your reports have not already played fast, loose and selective with the facts? What in the world do you think playing fast, loose and very selective would look like?

You cannot blame religion for this -- the man was a nut, and clearly not all Christians are nuts. Likewise, and I think the point many are making when they compare this guy with the Taliban (or Muslims), is that you cannot blame all of Islam for the actions of a few (and how they interpret what they believe in).

This guy was sick, and he'll be charged accordingly. Sadly for him, he's probably made a martyr of this doctor, and people are going to be eyeing the 'pro-LIFE' side a little more closely, and sympathizing with 'pro-choice'.

The comparison between the talibans and the christian fanatics is the distortion of the scriptures to fit their own agenda. Just kill, terrorize, it's easy. Remember, 1 commandment is "You shall not murder" but that's OK. Kill anyways that's for a good cause. You'll be forgiven. That is convenient.

WilliB: The leftists love abortion. They have abortion clubs, they even gather together and exchange pictures from their last abortions. You should come once. That's super fun! (end of sarcasms)

Its amazing no one on the left has blamed Hannity or Limbaugh yet. I'm sure its coming, it just takes time for it to pop up on the dailykos and then repeated here.

Betzee there is more : "George Tiller...had aborted tens of thousands of fetuses since the 1970s and believed in what he was doing...His Women's Health Care Services in Wichita is one of three clinics in the nation that perform abortions after the point when a fetus is generally considered able to survive outside the womb." Imagine tens of thousands of these babies who were able to survive outside of the womb...No one has a right to choose murder as a solution to a problem including the shooter.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-05-31-abortiondoc_N.htm

I just hope that we as a society build structures to aid those who find themselves faced with realities they rather not be. I would hope Dr. Tiller himself counseled his clients that if they waited a few years the clients might find that indeed they were blessed but could not see it at the moment. If you asked my Mom which of the ten children she would have aborted she of course would have said me (kidding). She loved them all dearly even though at the time of pregnancy she might have had other thoughts (how to afford another, health, work, just tired) along with the excitement of a new life. I hope Dr. Tiller explained these things to his clients.

My deepest sympathies to Dr Tiller's family, he was a great man with a difficult occupation and he will be missed. To make a point, do any of the pro-life commentators here actually understand what a late-term abortion is? It would involve choosing to abort a child at 5 plus months of pregnancy. Do you truly believe that most women would choose this for reasons that aren't related to her health? For fun? for no reason at all? If that's your belief, I feel sympathy for you people, having to go through life with such a bleak view of a woman's nature. I hope more young interns will follow in the footsteps of Dr. Tiller, choosing a path that truly does save life. A woman's existing life, which means far more to me than any clump of cells ever will.

Do you truly believe that most women would choose this for reasons that aren't related to her health?

there might be some. would that be wrong?

This guy who shot the doctor is not a hero. I am a Christan, and it seems odd that the guy who is supposedly so against abortion would choose to kill the guy who does perform them (legally since it is the law) in a church, where I believe the killer believes it is his "moral right" right to protect the innocent.

Having been a Christan, I have all ways been told that God knew me before I was ever born, and knows what path my life will take. With his infinte knowledge, I am sure that he knows which "innoncent children" will go through the abortion, and I am sure that He in his infinte wisdom will reward them for their loss.

Having said that, I do realize that this does not mean that one can just go out willy-nilly and have abortions, since God will take care of it in the end. No, both parties (something that is really not being said that it takes two people to get a woman pregnant, having pre-martial sex is still a sin, and if you really want to end abortions, just make pre-maritial sex illegal) are responsible, and I do believe that when your life is over, you will have to answer for what you have done here. If you have had abortions, then you (both man and woman) will have to answer to Him for that. The problem with most religions, is when we try to put our same limitations on God. I have never understood, if God (or Allah if you so believe) can make the world, and then tell you that you can't eat certain types of meat. If all the earth is made by Him, then wouldn't it be that there should be nothing that is banished from eating (other than being poisonious to consumption)? This is what I have a problem with in my religion when they try to put these "controls" on people, that seem to contridict what I believe God is trying to tell us.

If you have such an aversion to abortion, then don't get one. If you don't want to harm the unborn children, then instead focus your efforts on preventing sex outside of marriage (I do realize that some married couples choose to have an abortion, but they both have made that decision), or better still, if "octomom" can have 14 kids without being married, then those who say we should support adoptions, should then begin to adopt as many children as possible to back up their beliefs.

Just my thoughts.

flatearther,

I largely agree with you. However, at 5 plus months, the life involved is much more than a clump of cells and I think that is the point on which turns the argument of those who oppose late-term abortion (but not all abortion).

I don't think most women would choose late-term abortion on a whim or as a method of birth control. And I think it would be wrong to deprive those who would choose it for physical or psychological reasons for the sake of shutting the door on whimsical abortion. However, the gestating life is a recognizable human form and while I would say that it is not a person, I think society is within its right to accord it some protections.

I totally agree that a woman's existing life is to be valued more than the child's. I think this is what Dr. Tiller was about. The lunatic who shot him was, in and of himself, no different from many the individual religious radicals we are fighting all across the globe. Perhaps, however, it is time that we began fighting them at home, too.

Alphaape, Give them a chance. The pro-life folks will tell you that this perp was justified of his killing of Tiller because he can't murder any more children. It's all worth the cause. < :-)

The lunatic who shot him was, in and of himself, no different from many the individual religious radicals we are fighting all across the globe.

Sorry, but the doctor's killer can in no way ever claim he was emulating the historical figure known as Jesus Christ.

Radical Mohammedans, on the other hand, revere the founder of their cult in part because he was a ruthless killer.

Alphaape : I am Catholic and you know the stance of the church regarding abortion. It is condemned. The Murder of Dr. Tiller is also condemned. What happens to those whose life is snuffed out early and the consequences for history? Why do these things happen? Only God knows but we can speculate. Ideally we would all make the right decisions for we are free agents. But being free we don't always make the right decisions. Now what? We have the words of Christ saying "...forgive them Father for they do not know what they do..." How very true.

I think that indeed history is altered by our actions. In fact all of creation (new Heavens and Earth promised) reflects humankinds interaction with the Universe (we have global warming!). This drama is being played out. Dr. Tiller may have believed in the rightness of his path and I can only say this about him and all the individuals who are involved: http://www.euthanasia.com/vatican.html ".... Although in these cases the guilt of the individual may be reduced or completely absent, nevertheless the error of judgment into which the conscience falls, perhaps in good faith, does not change the nature of this act of killing, which will always be in itself something to be rejected..." These are some very complex issues and I would stay with the church of Christ on issues of Faith and Morality. I do believe that the pro-choice crowd also wish to save life and we have common ground. Dr. Tiller was at church so he certainly would have worked to save lives of both the mother and the children. At least my church would.

teleprompter: "Sorry, but the doctor's killer can in no way ever claim he was emulating the historical figure known as Jesus Christ."

I don't know of a single radical Christian who does this. On the other hand, I don't know of any Muslims who say, "Mohammed told me to do it", or, "Mohammed speaks to me through my dog", unlike what some Christian nuts say God told them to do this or that, and/or that he speaks to them.

In either case, the point is quite clearly lost on you -- you can blame the nuts, but you can't blame the religion. If you blame the religion with Islam, you must also blame all of Christianity for the actions this man (and others like him). You should know that it's wrong to label all based on the acts of one, or of a few.

Great thing religion isn't it.

I can't describe how much this makes me sick. Glad they caught this retard. He's certainly not a hero, and I'm pretty sure somethings not right upstairs in his head.

There is no justification for this murder.

pro-life are just fundamentalist with a strange name. Was it against the law when he did abortions?

It is a FEMALES RIGHT to choice to have an abortion, it is her body and her life that is effected so it is 100% her choice, and others should mind their own business when it comes to this. Drs that help these women should be praised, if not these women would try other means of abortion and could end up dead. These Pro-Life groups are nothing more then christian or catholic TERRORIST scum trying to force their religious beliefs and views on to others. The shooter of this Dr needs to be put to death for murder!

OneForAll:

I think that indeed history is altered by our actions. In fact all of creation (new Heavens and Earth promised) reflects humankinds interaction with the Universe (we have global warming!).

I agree with you on some points, but history as we know it may be altered by out actions, but God still knows the overall plan. So no matter what we do here, He knows the answers as to how it will play out. I believe nothing is going to surprise Him. So if that is the case, then a fetus that is aborted is all ready known to God, and I believe that He will be the one who takes care of the soul for those who believe that they have them.

Also, we both believe that God created everything, so how can our driving and SUV really destroy the earth? True we need to be better stewards of our environment, we are not going to kill off the planet. The same goes with this debate in my opinion. Unfortunately some will choose abortion, and we don't know if we are missing out on the next Einstein or Jeffry Dahmer. The same can be said for adoption; some kid who will never get adopted could have been with the proper family upbrining could be then next great hope or could be the next mass murderer. That is the wonder of creativity.

Bottom Line: Killing Tiller will not stop an abortion. If you want to stop the abortions, then just do away with sex, only to be used for procreation and not recreation.

"Mohammed speaks to me through my dog",

smithinjapan, I doubt if his dog would tell them, since Muslims believe dogs are unclean and Somali cabbies in Minnesota will not take passengers in their cars with seeing eye dogs.

But I get your point.

It is a FEMALES RIGHT to choice to have an abortion

Blackops, no it is both parties right. Why is it that she can decide to have an abortion, but if she decides to keep the child, then the man is hit with "child support?" It takes two people to make a child, if the woman is pregnant by some non consensual sex (i.e. rape, incest, etc) then by all means she has the right to terminate. But, in some cases, women who become pregnant do get abortions (and I don't have the numbers) by their own choice in not telling the partner. That should not be fair for the male. If he has demonstrated that he wants the child, then he should be allowed to take care and assume full custody once it is born. But in America, the way the laws are written that will not happen.

So, yes a woman can get an abortion on her own, but it is not a "right" that she has in regards to what the other partner wants. If this were the case, then like I said, the child support laws should be scrapped. A man could say "Hey, I didn't want the kid, so why should I have to pay" using your argument.

Kansas abortion doctor killed in church

Wow, he must have had some wild busines cards "George Tiller, M.D., Abortion Doctor." Or perhaps the headline is editorializing. Here's Wiki:

George Richard Tiller (August 8, 1941 – May 31, 2009[1][2]) was a physician from Wichita, Kansas in the United States. He was the medical director of a women's health care clinic in Wichita

"Women's health care director" doesn't make as good copy.

alpha ape..you sound more like a fatalist than a christian.

teleprompter,

No, he can't claim he was emulating Christ, but he can claim that he was furthering God's will.

Sorry.

So much for the misnamed Right to Life crowd. These people are murderers and terrorists. Dr. Tiller is only the latest of many victims.

This gang of thugs needs to put the Right to Life people in the same category as al Qaeda.

Whoever this murderer is, there can be no doubt that he was inspired by the climate of hate generated by the so-called Right to Life crowd--which includes the Catholic Church.

The Right to Lifer terrorists are armed and dangerous and dangerous fanatics.

i love the richard dawkins post that, according to the pro-life crowd...

abortion is murder, therefore abortion should not be allowed contraception also prevents the possibility of the "gift of life" being passed on, therefore should not be allowed therefore abstinence also potentially prevents the "gift of life" being passed on so in fact all pro-lifers ought to be anti-abstinence and we should all be copulating 24/7 so as to make sure no opportunities for the "gift of life" to be passed on are missed!

sounds like fun to me!

I do know of someone who did have a late-term abortion (back in the 1960s). The married mother of one, who went on to have two more children, she'd had meningitus (?) and there was a good chance the fetus had been affected. Some may disagree with that decision. But I think bringing a disabled child into the world represents an enormous responsibility that should be left to the discretion of the parents who will have to consider who will care for the child after they are gone.

In China late-term abortions have been routinely performed on women against their will. This is wrong and the Chinese government deserves to be condemned for such practices.

Bento, I don't think I am a fatalist, I may sound like it but I am not. I just try to understand this simple fact about Christianity. I am forgiven of my sins. However, that does not give me to have "carte blance" and do whatever I feel like, and then jsut confess and get into Heaven. But, I have to work hard at trying to do the right thing, and treating everyone fairly, and acknowledging that I am not perfect and that I am still sinful, but at least I know that there is a perfect way for me out there to try to achieve.

I feel that the anti-abortion rights groups sometimes forget that point. Is abortion wrong, yes I believe so, and I would not want to practice that as a birth control method. But if some others do, well, in the end they are the ones who have to answer to that. All I can do is tell them why I think it is wrong, and hope that they will understand. But, I do respect thier choice to go ahead with the procedure, nor do I think that we should take it on ourselves to kill those who perform that are properly licensed to do so.

Alpha ape: Let us assume the Earth came into existence 13.5 Billion years ago with a big bang. Let us also assume there is intelligence in the Universe for its creature have it. This intelligence senses a moral order. Let us make a big assumption and say that if those clumps of cells that look like babies and can survive by themselves outside the womb are in fact humans, tightly bonded to its Mother. Perhaps the Universe cries for each one aborted as well as for all who "...do not know what they do...". The Universe may just not support our life anymore because it can no longer bear it. Dr. Tiller, I believe, did not realize the gravity of his actions nor do those who support such things. But the Universe knows and Karma may be a wisdom of the past but we know that random acts of kindness can counter random acts of violence. Dr. Tiller would not be against Project Rachel that is there to help: http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/rachel/. We all must move to a culture of life for the survival of our species. Big deal people have sex. They have babies. Let us all help in caring for each other. I think Obama has the right approach and Dr. Tiller probably would have been for this approach.

You lost me in the second sentence, both semantically and grammatically.

Blackops: It is a FEMALES RIGHT to choice to have an abortion, it is her body and her life that is effected so it is 100% her choice

Words you'll never hear at a child support hearing....

That's to say I disagree. If you want to give women all the rights then fine, but with that must come the acceptance that men should no longer be responsible in any way for children that they fathered since they have no choice at all.

Sorry cleo. "... there is intelligence in the Universe, for its creatures have it..." Is that better? Not perfect Intelligence do those creatures have, I dare say, it is mixed with freedom and emotions. Makes for a great drama. It is very sad for Dr. Tiller and his family. The Catholic Church speaks of the whole Universe being raised (some say to a higher level of functionality - perhaps with another big bang - we can only speculate) of which Dr. Tiller and all of us are a part. We always effect others with our choices. No one is an island.

but with that must come the acceptance that men should no longer be responsible in any way for children that they fathered since they have no choice at all.

They have the choice not to sleep with a woman with whom they are not in a committed partnership.

A man could say "Hey, I didn't want the kid, so why should I have to pay" using your argument.

Until DNA testing came along, men had the ability to walk away, deny paternity and shrug off the financial consequences which come with it. I'm sure some of the women who sought out Dr. Tiller's father services, which could have gotten his medical license yanked and made him eligible for a stint behind bars, were pregnant and alone.

Biology did not create an equal division of labor. Yet I've never heard a woman complain, "It's unfair men don't assume 50 percent of the responsibility for gestation and childbirth."

There is no justification for the killing of Dr. Tiller. None. < :-)

Bill O'Reilly, who made repeated references to "Tiller the baby killer" may find himself in court, not for child support, but as an accomplice in a wrongful death civil lawsuit filed on behalf of Dr. Tiller's family.

On June 12, 2007, O'Reilly said, "Yes, I think we all know what this is. And if the state of Kansas doesn't stop this man [Tiller], then anybody who prevents that from happening has blood on their hands as the governor does right now, Governor Sebelius."

There's the case of Larry Hillblom, who founded the courier company DHL and "retired" to Asia.

Hillblom has had an extravagant afterlife.

Its principal source proved to be his vigorous taste for young, often very young Asian women. Several — from Micronesia, Vietnam, the Philippines — stepped forward to say Hillblom fathered their children. A paternity suit ensued, involving stealthy quests for Hillblom’s DNA — his bathroom was mysteriously scoured with acid after his death and his every possession buried — and years of transcontinental litigation.

“He cut a wide swathe through the Pacific,” Barry Israel, a lawyer who represented Junior Larry Hillblom, the oldest of four children ultimately recognized, told me. Each of the penniless Asian kids received about $50 million, after tax, from the $600 million Hillblom estate.

Bill O'Reilly, who made repeated references to "Tiller the baby killer" may find himself in court, not for child support, but as an accomplice in a wrongful death civil lawsuit filed on behalf of Dr. Tiller's family.

As yelling "Fire!" in a public place is an example of speech that is not protected, so might the yelling of "baby killer!" in order to incite some random persons to commit violence be also unprotected.

The New Republic asks an intriguing question of the so-called "pro-life" crowd: "If abortion truly is what the pro-life movement says it is -- if it is the infliction of deadly violence against an innocent and defenseless human being -- then doesn't morality demand that pro-lifers act in any way they can to stop this violence? I mean, if I believed that a guy working in an office down the street was murdering innocent and defenseless human beings every day, and the governing authorities repeatedly refused to intervene on behalf of the victims, I might feel compelled to do something about it, perhaps even something unreasonable and irresponsible. Wouldn't you?

"This is the radicalizing logic of pro-life rhetoric. Which brings me to my question for pro-lifers: Who is the better, truer member of your movement? The man who murdered serial "baby killer" George Tiller? Or Robert George and other (comparative) moderates, who reject the use of violence to save the innocent?"

Yabits,

The silence is really deafening here. The same posters who are quick to denounce Muslim terrorists as having given up all claim to their cause by resorting to violence, instead shift this thread into a discussion of male paternity rights. Can't have it both ways...

I hope the guy that killed Doctor Tiller in cold blood gets the death penality.

The same posters who are quick to denounce Muslim terrorists as having given up all claim to their cause by resorting to violence, instead shift this thread into a discussion of male paternity rights.

Ever observant and perceptive you are, Betzee!

Yabits, Betzee,

Does the killer of Dr. Tiller deserve the death penalty, if he is convicted of this? Or Life in Prison? Your thoughts?

I'd be satisfied if the killer sits in solitary confinement till the day he dies. I don't want to see another needless death that will do nothing except cost taxpayers millions of extra dollars.

Isolation from humanity is enough for me. He can't hurt anybody else. < :-)

yabits/Betzee, I have not stop denouncing the far Right Loon who did this. But unlike the muslim radicals sad to say that this guy had a specific target. Now if he went and just bombed the entire church where Tiller was at, then that would be a differnt story. Killing for your religious belief should not be tolerated, no matter what your viewpoints are.

But the Universe knows and Karma may be a wisdom of the past but we know that random acts of kindness can counter random acts of violence.

OneforAll: that sort of goes along with what I have been trying to get across. If you believe that an innoncent child was lost from an abortion, then sooner or later as you are saying that karma will come back to the child as something better, and to the woman and the man who decided something worse. In the end, it is both those individuals who had sex, that made the decision to abort to face the consequences of their actions.

Betzee: They have the choice not to sleep with a woman with whom they are not in a committed partnership.

The rights have to match the responsibility.

Does the killer of Dr. Tiller deserve the death penalty, if he is convicted of this? Or Life in Prison? Your thoughts?

Prison. If he ever gets the point were he regrets what he did, he should write essays from his prison cell on why what he did was wrong, and why he would never have done it, if given the chance. Maybe that could have some influence over another person considering violence.

But, since he's 51 and pretty much convinced of his own righteousness, I doubt he would ever express any regrets.

The rights have to match the responsibility.

The rights cannot match the responsibility. It's a biologic impossibility.

Taka

Christians never cease to amaze me. I believe Jesus once said, "If we keep taking an eye for an eye, soon we'll all be blind." But there they are, using violence to achieve what they think is right. If I remember correctly, Jesus was also called the Prince of Peace. I don't know how people who commit these violent acts can still call themselves a Christian.

yes, the wingers are posting away on the sotomayer thread trying to prevent a pro-choice woman from being on the SCOTUS but nothing here from them on this thread at all.

What Pro-Life means is fetus support and after you are born, we do not care. And if you are a doctor we kill you. That is Pro-Life, pure and simple. Barbarian. And yet the wingers wrap themselves up in the bible and presume to be more moral than muslims or any other group. Its a psychosis really. A sickness that leads to the deaths of millions in useless wars and religious strife. Iraq, example A lead by the born again bush.

Bill O'Reilly is certainly an instigator. The creep ought to at least be taken off the air. But the real culprit is Operation Rescue, which has established itself as an ipso facto terrorist organization targeting abortion clinics and doctors. They are the Christian version of Al Qaeda.

It is very easy to see how people who foster the viewpoint that "abortion is murder" can incite some people who are well-meaning in their heart to do anything to stop the "murder." Even if it means taking another human life.

Abortion is an evil. No doubt in my mind about it. But it is a lesser evil. The remedies that would be put into place to end abortions by law would be far greater evils. To sin or not to sin is always a matter of choice. And so, to remove the ability of a fully-developed human being to choose, must be one of the greatest of all evils.

Taka: The rights cannot match the responsibility. It's a biologic impossibility.

Legally speaking, they can.

Operation Rescue, which kept a "Tiller watch" on its website, issued a strained denunciation of the killing. But the words of its founder, Randall Terry, were not so measured. "George Tiller was a mass murderer," said Terry. "We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions."

Pretty sad that people resort to violence like this. I am no fan of Dr. Tiller's three plus decades of infanticide - but killing him is wrong.

I have found it surprising that some far right wing news outlets are a bit silent on the murder of Doctor Tiller. Take the Washington Times, it has very little on the Doctors killing. It seems that Rev Moon told his far right servants to stay quiet for now.

Rev. Moon's UPI is also very quiet on Doctor Tiller's murder also.

Wonder why the far right is trying to censor the news of his murder?

A group that needs to be heavily watched is the "Army of god" freaks. This far right religious terrorist organization is one that supports and advocates the murder of Doctors.

Any group that supports murder and an end needs to be classified as a terrorist organization.

I hope the Congress tackles this issue with the same fervor they have tackled Islamic terrorism.

But I for one believe that there are those in Congress who support these types of groups and will fight any legal action against them.

A group that needs to be heavily watched is the "Army of god" freaks. This far right religious terrorist organization is one that supports and advocates the murder of Doctors.

I just listened to an extremeist pro-lifer on CNN who "cheered" the news of the death of "serial killer" Tiller. Dan Holman of the Army of God. It is a shame these people couldnt direct their incredible level of passion and devotion to their cause to a more beneficial means in society and there are plenty of worthy causes in need.

army of god... what bullshit, no wonder they killed somebody, they are already crazy. ...army of god haha thats a good one. But i do agree with flammen they should of done something for society instead of becoming killers, umm.. i thought god doesnt like killing? lol but just prooves even the "devoted" people towards god are off there head crazy lol or can be. not saying they all are >.< just most xD

This is so upsetting. An abortion doctor in a church? Shooting during a service? What on earth is going on???

But unlike the muslim radicals sad to say that this guy had a specific target.

Or unlike Timothy McVeigh who dismissed the day care attendees who died when he blew up the Okla City Federal Building as "collateral damage."

But I don't recall that distinction counted for much when Bill Ayers, who never killed anyone, was denounced as a "domestic terrorist" by prominent Republicans and here on this site, harsher words than "far Right Loon" which refers to a man who is being held for murder.

Operation Rescue and those that support it are the American Taliban.

Pretty sad that people resort to violence like this. I am no fan of Dr. Tiller's three plus decades of infanticide - but killing him is wrong.

Also pretty sad that people resort to untruths to slander Dr. Tiller even in his death. Could you give us the name of even one "infant" that Dr. Tiller killed? Infanticide is the killing of a young child. None of Dr. Tiller's terminations were children. This is "baby-killer" in its five-dollar word version.

"Tiller's three plus decades of infanticide"

I'm amazed JT let's the resident fanatics continue to blubber these un-truths.

I believe Jesus once said, "If we keep taking an eye for an eye, soon we'll all be blind."

Jesus was quoting Gandhi.

the faith-based crowd is drinking champagne tonight after the murder of a doctor legally practicing his trade in Kansas. Despite their fake sentiment about how this murder is wrong everything their leaders like O'Reilly and the Operation Rescue taliban types said leading up to this murder was inciting people to violence in the unhinged set of tea bagger wingers. This was a hate crime and I hope Obama puts the FBI on these out there groups of zealots like Clinton did after several murders by them in the 90s.

The faith-based wingers think they are above the law because god is on their side they hope. In reality, they will all be going to hell for their crimes.

Abortion is legal in the US, get over it.

I did not support abortion not do the murder of Dr. Tiller. It was wrong to kill him. There are more peaceful ways to protest abortion. Protesters should carry signs not guns. Carrying signs has never physically harmed anyone. I am a Christian and I am not rejoicing in his death. It actually grieves me that he died that way just as I grieve for the countless lives lost because of abortion. The doctor has to answer to God not me and he will have to answer sooner than he expected.

Im surprised a late term abortionist would go to church and be an usher. I wonder what he was thinking during the services. Well, I guess its no different than members of the mafia going to mass. At first I wondered how someone could kill another in a church, but maybe that was a statement too about the heart of a church that lets a late term abortionist have a leadership position within the church. I suppose the killer did not think well of the abortionist or the church.

The whole world continues to watch this sorry soap opera.

Only in America, how many times you caught yourself saying that this year?

Well, I guess its no different than members of the mafia going to mass.

And I guess it is different and the difference is this: Mafia members are doing something illegal but there is insufficient evidence to convict. Tiller was doing something legal and conviction was unnecessary.

Obviously, in Tiller's church, God had not personally spoken to the church members and told them that under no circumstances shall late-term abortion be allowed.

Obviously, in Tiller's church, God had not personally spoken to the church members and told them that under no circumstances shall late-term abortion be allowed.

LOL

Betzee: I think you missed the point about men and child support. The argument is that women can "walk" away from having the responsibility of taking care of a child by having an abortion even without the approval of the father. What if the though the father doesn't want to take care of the child even though it is his? He is forced to pay child support. What if the father wants to take care of the child and the woman doesn't? There is nothing he can do to force her to carry the child till birth, but a woman though does have the ability to force the father but the father doesn't have the ability to force the mother. Of course the argument is that you shouldn't force a woman to carry a fetus because it can be life threatening. If a woman doesn't want to take care of a child she has options to walk away from those responsibilities, a man doesn't. All men are asking for is the same rights that women have and that is the ability to say no they don't want to take care of the child, that means no child support. Women have that option men don't.

Betzee: To further continue on with my previous post, I have heard women complain all the time about how its unfair. However though just because a woman goes through gestation and chidbirth is not a valid counter-argument to force men to pay child support for a child they don't want, woman can walk away from such responsibilities, going through gestation and child birth does not grand them this right, even if the father wants to take care of the child.

I won't lose any sleep over this.

Folks who choose to involve themselves in an extremely profitable and violent industry takes their chances.

"If you're so pro-life, do me a favour: don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries."

Bill Hicks

Operation Rescue is a terrorist cell. When will authorities act?

Rachel Maddow just connected the dots last night. http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/node/28677

What kind of 'medical clinic' is it where only one of the two patients walk out alive?

Tiller bragged about killin' 60,000+. He was a very public guy who purposefully put himself in the limelight because he enjoyed the in-your-face notariety.

Well... Looks like someone decided to get in his face just to brag about '1'.

He did do that. No need to get your panties in a twist, miss. That's the kind of guy he was.

He specifically prided himself on doin' late-term abortions which real medical doctors will tell you is completely survivable.

Why would anyone lose any sleep over a mass killer like him? The guy was a serial killer with a medical license.

And, leitmotiv... It's not considered manly to have the 'moderators' do your dirty work. Man up, my friend.

Man up, my friend.

This means zero coming from you.

No surprise there.

So is USARonin the true voice of the "pro-life" terrorists? You wonder. Abortion is not murder under the law. Shooting a man dead without provocation is a crime. If you rejoice in this illegal act you are in fact condoning it and all other murders of abortion providers.

Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization. Make no mistake about that.

USARonin at 02:36 PM JST - 5th June Well... Looks like someone decided to get in his face just to brag about '1'.

A man was murdered by a terrorist and you agree with the act? That is as bad as condoning the Taliban or Al Qaida.....Real sad...

Kansas, what a sorry state! This must be the US version of the lawless tribal regions bordering Pakistan and Afganistan, just substitute over zeolous (Taliban) for out of control born again holy roller, bible thumping Christians. I do not agree with abortion, but, going to a church a shooting the dude in front of everybody?? Shows real class! Time for the death penalty and to keep this fool of the streets of beutiful tribal region (Kansas).