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Gadhafi's son warns of civil war in Libya as death toll tops 200

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Somebody should pound Gadhafi. He hasn't been pounded since Reagan ordered his palace bombed back in the 80's.

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Wild stuff on the tube right now, Gadhafi's son been rambling on for over 30 minutes. Paranoid and apocalyptic.

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It is an interesting time of the MidEast and N.Africa. I think this wave for change will not stop until the people of the region feel more autonomy and more empowerment to lead better lives.

A professor once said, once the gap between expectations and actual experience widens too much, revolution and uprisings will happen. We are seeing a region of the world with growing personal and social expectations. Until the gap between what they want and what they receive closes significantly, the people will demand change. Even at the expense of their lives.

The smart rulers in the region will start dialogue with community leaders now. The harsh ones face revolution, civil war and eventually face exhile after they are brought down.

The real question will soon become, what form of government will these countries choose. And second, will they favor the west or not?

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He hasn't been pounded since Reagan ordered his palace bombed back in the 80's. That's cause he plays nicer with the US now.

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Riots will continue to escalate; I believe the younger generation among crowds are especially becoming frustrated with todays nonsense.

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the crowds

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The real question will soon become, what form of government will these countries choose. And second, will they favor the west or not?

Those are the real questions. They are also potential real fears.

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pointofview:

" Riots will continue to escalate; I believe the younger generation among crowds are especially becoming frustrated with todays nonsense. "

Just as you are unable to define what "today's nonsense" is, are the protesters unable to define what they want. The only faction who is truly united in what they want are the islamists, and they will emerge the winner from chaos.

Be careful what you cheer for.

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If he turns off the Internet, he's toast.

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Violence will be met with even more violence... that has been proven time and time again and why declaration of war will never be met by anything but resistance and more suffering. Protest should never be met with bullets and crackdowns but with dialogue. If Libya, Bahrain, and Syria, for example, continue to attack the protestors they will meet with even harsher responses and escalated riots. Indeed, as Gadhafi's son points out, it could even escalate into civil war.

If you're 'not like Egypt or Tunisia', don't be dictatorial like their governments were.

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Wild stuff on the tube right now, Gadhafi's son been rambling on for over 30 minutes. Paranoid and apocalyptic.

Like father like son, I still remember big Gadhafi's UN address...so much wasted time.

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WilliB: "only faction who is truly united in what they want are the islamists, and they will emerge the winner from chaos. Be careful what you cheer for."

Bush and the right wing in the US predicted this cycle of uprising. One of the few things they got right. They touted how much they wanted the people of the region to have a voice in their own destiny and to choose the future they want.

Well friend. If they choose the path of Islam I guess those same right wingers will be calling on the nation to supress these new governments as enemies of the west.

Hypocracy! Plain and simple.

Reality? Reality is this, the movements will choose a destiny and there is nothing you or I can do about it. The people have their right to self determination. As is should be.

Sadly every time we have seen people making choices that don't fit our desires, we soon see insurgencies funded by the west to assure failure of the new governments. As people like the Sandinistas how this pattern plays out. American foreign policy hypocracy 101.

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tkoind2 -

Well friend. If they choose the path of Islam I guess those same right wingers will be calling on the nation to supress these new governments as enemies of the west.

Not correct. You're mislabeling it by saying "Choosing Islam" , not to mention you are taking the stereotype of the angry radical jihadist and saying that represents Islam.

If they choose radical Islam and then get the jihad, then yes they will be considered dangerous and an enemy.

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Man, that is convenient. When a movement towards something we don't like takes hold, we callit radical, dangerous and refer to it as something the people did not choose. Even if they clearly did.

The Sandinistas are a stellar example. They came to power in a popular revolution against a very ruthless dictator. In their first years they implemented policies of literacy, health care, gender equality and economic reform to help the working poor of Nicaragua.

Yet because their movement was left wing, the US decided that this popular movement was evil and set out to undermine it with the contras. Despite free and fair elections and a majority win, the US continued to fund attacks on the elected government. Soon after all the positive efforts of the early years of the revolution were lost to natural paranoia and civil war.

If the middle east and north African nations choose any form of government that the west finds "worrying" you can bet that efforts to undermine the will of the people will follow.

We have no right to impose our choice on these people. Their destiny should be in their hands whether we like the form of government they select or not.

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Also Man. We don't know what form these states will take yet. To assume it will be radical Islam shows your inherent prejudices and do not reflect the reality on the ground.

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tkoind2 -

no, if the people elect a government that declares the US an enemy, then yes they are an enemy.

I did not give a prediction of what the outcome of the elections and protests will be. let's see.

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WilliB,

Not wishing for violence but that eventually appears if the decision makers dont listen. Nonsense? You dont know? low wages, no jobs, bad jobs, no job security, poor living conditions, tyranny, corruption, etc etc etc.

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Man. It was the assuption that all things socialist were evil that led to the mistakes with the Sandinitas and a considerable loss to the people of Nicaragua.

Now if we make the same blanket assumptions about Islamic political groups, we risk creating enemies where none were. Not all movements in Islam are anti-western. To assume that they are is wrong.

Engagement with the new political movements, open and fair engagement is the only way to help assure that we don't end up with new enemies.

The worst thing we can do is to try to interfere. That creates blowback, which we have been experiencing for the last 50 years thanks to bad post WWII policies. Time to learn from our mistakes.

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Pointofview is right. If leaders don't listen after years of efforts by the people to engage them. Then what are people without jobs and hope to do. Tyranny should be deposed. People should be able to have hope for the future.

If that requires revolution. Then so be it. But of course we all hope for peaceful transition when intelligent leaders bow to the will of the people. Sadly this is all too rare.

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Only in the backward world of some does anyone offer any support for Gadhafi, the terrorist!

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Man. It was the assuption that all things socialist were evil that led to the mistakes with the Sandinitas and a considerable loss to the people of Nicaragua.

It was oppressive communism that was the enemy.

To assume it will be radical Islam shows your inherent prejudices and do not reflect the reality on the ground.

I didn't predict that. However the Muslim Brotherhood is the largest opposition party in Egypt, so their increased role in government is a possibility.

Engagement with the new political movements, open and fair engagement is the only way to help assure that we don't end up with new enemies.

Obama opened a new age of "dialogue and diplomacy", but I believe the US will always have enemies whether or not you feel it's the US' fault.

The worst thing we can do is to try to interfere.

Totally agree. Let's see what the outcome is.

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"It was oppressive communism that was the enemy."

Anyone looking at the Sandinistas could have seen they were a populist movement with left wing ideas and not a communist domino falling over next door. But then again the US got Vietnam entirely wrong too. And Cambodia and Laos suffered for that misunderstanding.

We risk the same problems now in the MidEast if we don't show patience and a more open minded view.

"Muslim Brotherhood is the largest opposition party in Egypt" It is too soon to know how that party will behave or how much support they will have for building a government. People are afraid before they have all the information. That is dangerous.

"but I believe the US will always have enemies whether or not you feel it's the US' fault."

The first thing we must do is acknowledge that we do create new enemies thanks to bad policies. Until you recognize that you are doomed to repeating the same mistakes.

At least we agree on intervention. My wishes are with the people exercising their right to self determination. I hope they achieve something better and more enlightened for their future. It is possible for Islam and modern culture to co-exist. I wish them well.

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Anyone looking at the Sandinistas could have seen they were a populist movement with left wing ideas and not a communist domino falling over next door.

Nope, they were another communist "experiment".

The first thing we must do is acknowledge that we do create new enemies thanks to bad policies. Until you recognize that you are doomed to repeating the same mistakes.

OK, so what do you think the US need to do for everyone to like us?

My wishes are with the people exercising their right to self determination. I hope they achieve something better and more enlightened for their future. It is possible for Islam and modern culture to co-exist. I wish them well.

100% agree. If radical Islam comes to power, they have a doctrinal hatred towards the west. Then we will have an enemy.

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"Nope, they were another communist "experiment"." An experiment that was working. In just two years they put people to work, taught thousands to read, provide health care etc...

In any case the people supported them and the US had NO RIGHT to interfere. But did so anyway to great harm for people in the region. The same thing would happen is the US takes sides in the current uprisings.

"OK, so what do you think the US need to do for everyone to like us?" It is unrealistic to have "everyone" like us. But we can do a lot more to win the respect of the global population.

Support for self determination when the people of a country implement change we should engage the new government and offer our friendship.

Stop supporting repressive regimes.

Work for a more balanced policy on Israel and the MidEast.

Stop demonizing states like Iran and working to engage them. The people of Iran want change too, demonizing the government just prolongs the status quo.

And many other more specific things on specific topics. But these are a start.

Where are you getting that "radical Islam" is coming to power in any of the states in question? This is sounds more like some kind of paranoid nightmare and not at all in line with reality on the ground. So explain if you would.

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Where are you getting that "radical Islam" is coming to power in any of the states in question?

Once again, I did not say they were. However in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood is the leading opposition, and you must agree they are radical Islam.

Given the track record of the Middle East (Iran, Lebanon, Hamas,...) it is a distinct possibility that radical Islamists may gain power in some of these countries enduring protests. Let's see what happens.

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We just don't know what the Muslim Brotherhoods policies would be. Or whether the general public would be tolerant of anything extreme. Indications are that people want prosperity which radical Islam would not allow. So it is highly unlikely that any kind of radical anything will take root in Egypt. It is pure paranoid speculation at this point to think it would.

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The first thing we must do is acknowledge that we do create new enemies thanks to bad policies

This is basically leftist Ameri-centrism. We don't loom that large in the world of the average Libyan, trust me.

We just don't know what the Muslim Brotherhoods policies would be.

Well you can take a look at what happened to the Egyhptian Google exec whose prominence on the scene in Tahir Sq western yuppies and progs claimed was proof of a secular future for Egypt - - he was physically prevented by Muslim B'hood thugs from sharing a stage with the MB leader back in Egypt after decades of exile.

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I can't help notice the conspicuous lack of enthusiasm here for wacky Qaddafi's ouster, compared with what we saw for that of Mubarak. But then, one of them was a US ally, and the other is Libya's Castro...

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"Seif al-Islam Gadhafi"

Great Scott!

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Gadhafi has promised to increase Libya's oil exports...so the western world shall not want to see him fall!

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tkoind2: The worst thing we can do is to try to interfere.

That's not an absolute.

Stop demonizing states like Iran and working to engage them.

So you think Obama is demonizing Iran? Because he is the one shaping US foreign policy. I think he had a pretty clear message at the beginning of his term which was dialogue and engagement, but Iran has responded with a slap in the face. I guess Obama just isn't being nice enough, and I know I'm right because I can point to his red cheek as evidence.

Stop supporting repressive regimes. Support for self determination when the people of a country implement change we should engage the new government and offer our friendship.

Congrats. You've just created enemies by the people who worked with or supported the old regime. Any blood from their hands should be traced to you.

Work for a more balanced policy on Israel and the MidEast.

Like trying to produce balanced UN resolutions that end up getting rejected, which you ultimately have to veto? Congrats. You just made more enemies.

And many other more specific things on specific topics. But these are a start.

Right. The start to creating new enemies.

There are generally two parties to any conflict in the Middle East. Any action that supports one side while hurting the other will create enemies. And if you do the exact opposite the exact opposite group will be your enemy. And if you do nothing at all, the group that gets hurt most by that will be your enemy. You seem to believe you're some kind of expert on blowblack and your position seems to be that we should always have a position that creates no consequences, but you use the word "enemies" instead.

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Work for a more balanced policy on Israel and the MidEast

Libya is far from "Palestine". No relevance.

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I guess "W" was right afterall. Build a democracy in Iraq and the rest of the countries will follow. Of course, they probably were hoping that the mer radical elements wouldn't participate.

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Yep, only self-serving America looks after its own interests first in a situation like this.

Oh, wait, there's this from Italy:

""Would you imagine to have an Islamic Arab Emirate at the borders of Europe? This would be a very serious threat," said Foreign Minister Franco Frattini." (From the BBC)

Wow, looks like Europe is ready to throw democracy loving Libyan protesters under the bus as well to avoid Islamic radicalism. Well, that or to avoid illegal immigration.

Crap, I guess it's not all oil then. According to some, it's OK for the Gadhafis to rule like kings in North Africa as long as they keep more darkies out of Europe, I guess, eh?

The hypocrisy of some can really make one sick.

Well, may God be with the people of Libya, cause everyone else has an axe to grind, and will gladly use their misery to make some stupid geopolitical point...

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Their tribalism is gonna mean lots and lots of dead.

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I predict that although Obama appears to be "voting present" on this issue as well he will in the end support Khaddafy. Let'S not forget Obama's spiritual mentor Rev Jeremiah Wright visited Libya and has met with the Colonel.

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