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Int'l probe demanded after Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine

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Horrendous, just horrendous.... Hope they find what caused this.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

Ukrainians probably don't have the technical ability to hit a plane at that height. Russia has yet to cut off the flow of fighters and arms across the Ukrainian border to pro-Russian separtists. Russia’s military actions inside and along Ukraine’s border exceed any definition of “defensive” and part with any reasonable understanding of what is militarily required to secure the border. The movement and positioning of Russian forces is also well beyond anything that could be called routine training.

0 ( +14 / -14 )

My thought are wit hthe victims . . .May their souls rest in peace.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Yahoo news is reporting that the Pro-Russian Ukrainian rebel commander was bragging about downing the plane on social media. Apparently they thought it was a military transport. After the crash, the same guy deleted all his posts.

18 ( +22 / -4 )

Disgusting terrorist attack and I hope that the people responsible are caught and held accountable for the sickening mass murder of innocent men, women and children. Looks like Russia have a lot to answer to as well.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Not good if shot down by Russian missiles or Russian supplied missiles and even worse if fired from inside Russia. TV news showing burned bodies in the wreckage while others appeared to be looting the luggage looking for items of any value.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

RUSSIA and the Russian-backed rebels. Putin has blood on his hands.

U.S. Intelligence confirms the plane was hit by a surface to air missile (BBC newsfeed). The rebels are hampering the investigation. Zichi above says they are looting the wreckage. Putin is saying this wouldn't have happened if there had been peace on the ground, while at the same time he's arming the rebels and supplying military personnel to them. He has 12,000 or so troops massed on the border. He should stop interfering with a sovereign nation that is not part of Russia.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

Putin will never admit Russia was responsible.

11 ( +15 / -4 )

@zichi

This Russian made missle is capable hitting targets of upwards to 70,000 feet. The plane was flying at 10,000 meters (33,000 feet). To fire this missle, it requires extensive technical training, and you have to have 6 to 7 expert operator that is probably trained by the Russians.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Wonder what will happen with the next World Cup, since its supposed to be in Russia. Will the Dutch boycott it? I sure would, under this circumstances.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

The pro-Russian terrorists have just signed their own death warrants. There is little doubt Russia has supplied the tech for this act of war. Shame on them - and Rest in Peace to the 295 innocent victims.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Seems to me that the belligerent "chocolate king" of Ukraine and his neo-nazi-led forces brought down this plane and are trying to blame it on the beleaguered freedom fighters in the east of the country.

-32 ( +6 / -38 )

Putin denied any involvement, that's a sure sign he was involved.

7 ( +15 / -8 )

Horror.

The most plausible scenario points to Russia, and the international community are going to be outraged over this.

Completely unfathomable.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

How can Russia not be indirectly responsible for this? Why would a commercial airliner fly over a war zone?

0 ( +9 / -9 )

Lets remember Russians have a history of shooting down civilian passemger jets. Their handwork is all over this - whether directly, or through their terrorist operatives in Ukraine.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

The U.S. also has a history of shooting down civilian passenger jets.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Why was the plane flying over a war zone in the first place?

3 ( +9 / -6 )

Tragic news. Point no finger but from what we are hearing suspicious activity from Russia if early reports are true.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

FizzBit.. the conspiracies start already??

Between whats going on there and in Gaza we seem to be heading towards some significant instability..

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Putin needs to go, and the international community must isolate Russia now. Ukraine govt doesn't even control the ground where the Russian missile was launched. Clearly, Moscow had a hand in it, and this is totally unacceptable by any international standard.

Anyway, how many of you anti-Obama JT posters still have your "Putin envy"?

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Shooting down a civilian airline is just downright murder of innocent people. I hope the people responsible will eventually be brought to justice for such a heinous crime.

13 ( +14 / -1 )

If it turns out that the Russian backed/supported/funded rebels are to blame then move the next World Cup out of Russia.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Why was the plane flying over a war zone in the first place?

The FAA (USA) sends out a NOTAMS (Notice to Airmen) which lists warnings for planes and ships that may travel into hazard areas. The FAA is the default standard to most aviation entities throughout the world. They had a warning about flying over the Ukraine that went into effect back in April 2014, and was in effect until April 2015. It is not required for foreign arilines but mandatory for US arilines, but world arilines normally follow.

Anyone can go to the FAA website and look at the NOTAMS in effect and see the one for Ukraine and other areas. Why this airline chose to fly this path, the world wonders. Just another bad deal for Malaysian Airlines. Ample warning has been issued and many other airlines have avoided this area since April 2014.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

halogenicJul. 18, 2014 - 07:52AM JST Why was the plane flying over a war zone in the first place?

The route taken by the Malaysian jet is a common route, and appears to have been subject to no flight restrictions. Both Ukrainian and Russian armed forces possess SA-17 missile launchers, and that pro-Moscow insurgents may have gotten their hands surface-to-air missiles when Ukrainian forces retreated. However, to operate effectively, you have to be very skilled with extensive Russian training.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I don't think Ukranians shot the plane, because rebels don't have planes and unlike rebels they have chain of command and the knowledge of civilian planes. I don't say it's sure, but it looks like rebels were trigger happy.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The NOTAM was issued for flights below 30,000 Feet. Until this morning, all the European carriers were still using this route - its if you like an 'expressway' way in the sky for flights between Western Europe and anywhere is Asia from HK Southwards. Airlines have NOT been avoiding this area at cruising altitides at all. MH have not acted irresponsibly as 'Alphaape' suggests above. That could have just as easily have been an SQ A380 flying from London to Singapore. A look at FlightRadar24 right now will show you empty airspace.

My sympathy to the the families of the victims of this senseless act.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@BurakuminDes

Yes, let's look at history as it directly pertains to this incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

"Ukraine admitted that the disaster was probably caused by an errant missile fired by its armed forces."

Could this most recent incident also be the result of poorly trained Ukrainian "government" forces firing an "errant" missile?

-9 ( +6 / -15 )

After reading all the comments up to here, I see that the people already decided who is the one to blame. The evil Russia. Without having any evidences yet. That kind of makes me think that who ever did it succeed on his goal.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

MH have not acted irresponsibly as 'Alphaape' suggests above.

Reports in US media are starting to say that the plane may have been outside of the NOTAM zone, so that would put the blame solely on either Ukraine or Russia since the plane was probably flying where it was supposed. Also, I beleve the NOTAMS was for all altitudes and not just below 30K feet.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

This is horrific and freighting to anyone who is a frequent flyer to Europe. My condolences. Before passing judgements how about waiting for the evidence to be sifted through.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

"MH have not acted irresponsibly...."

The fact is, they flew over a conflict zone. Would you board an aircraft if you knew it would be flying over a conflict zone, including the presence of surface to air missile batteries manned by belligerents? My answer is "no," but I guess I'm a tad touchy.

The FAA can go to h*ll, for all I care. Safety comes second for the FAA.

-14 ( +2 / -16 )

This is just horrifying. I can't believe they did this; the rebels are dangerous idiots, but I can't help thinking that Malaysia Airlines showed remarkably poor judgement by choosing a flight path over a war zone.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Ukraine govt doesn't even control the ground where the Russian missile was launched.

Feel free to back your statement by valid proofs. Perhaps, you have a file photo with Russian missile and Russian personnel, launching the missile. Besides, name the coordinates of "launching site" that is "not controlled by Ukranian govt".

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Im very shocked about this news. A passenger jet got shot from the sky without any reason, that this is still possible in this day and age is frightening. This is a black page in Dutch history. I hope the people behind this will be held responsible.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

This is just horrendous to read about.

My only hope is that this incident will force both sides to pull back from the brink and find an end to the conflict. It will definitely put more pressure on the seperatists and Russians to do so, at least if the evidence that they were the ones who shot the plane down proves true (which seems likely).

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@burakumindes, before irrationally playing the blame game, wouldn't it be more prudent to get the facts first, BEFORE sending out the lynch mob? Bear in mind; Cui bono?

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

OMG , this is terrible. As to who is to blame, it would be wise not to jump to conclusions and blame it on one particular side immediately without proof. It is not uncommon in armed conflicts to stage / blame ones action on the other side. Time will tell.

Regardless, prayers to the victims of this tragedy.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Corporate greed is responsible too for this catastrophe.

Back in April, International Civil Aviation Organization has advised airlines to avoid east Ukrainian air zone and to change their routes. Most of the major carriers did not care as they were interested in saving fuel only.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I can't speak, I'm so shocked.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

This is bad on every scale. Russia didn't claim responsibility, but it seems very unlikely that it was the Ukrainians. If these missiles EVER get into the wrong hands like the Jihadists this could be something worse to come.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Russian President Vladimir Putin pinned the blamed on Kiev for renewing its offensive against the rebels two weeks ago after a ceasefire failed to hold.

Putin is a reckless tyrant who still wants to fight the Cold War, two decades after it ended. He supplied these rockets to the Russian separatists, and clearly they did not have the technical know-how to properly operate them. The blood of these people is on his hands and the free world needs to hit Russia with EVERY sanction it has at its disposal. This could have easily been a plane from any country, it was just pure luck that it was Malaysian Air.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Second plane after the MH370 incident, you would think Malaysian Air would be more cautious of the route it takes. Condolences to the family of flight MH17.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

The crook Putin is responsible for this as he sent the weapons to his terrorist mates. It's time to impose heavy sanctions on Russia until the crook Putin mends his ways.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

it seems like the plane was flying on a route approved by the UN:

Malaysia Airlines have moved to stress that the flight route taken by the plane that came down in Ukraine had been declared safe by the UN aviation arm, the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If this happened by Russia or Russian/Crimean rebels, what will those here who were happy Crimea going back to Russia have to say for themselves?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I think this shoot down was a horrible mistaken identity.

The reason is simple: the rebels in the eastern Ukraine who operated the missile battery may not have complete training on the system itself. As such, the crew that operated the missile battery thought they were shooting at another Ukrainian military transport, but instead mistakenly they shot down an commercial airliner with tragic consequences.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Don't hold you breath for Putin who has been supporting & supply the rebels to accept any responsibility, show and / or have any real sympathy - yet alone lose a nano second of sleep even thinking about it. Those rebels should of been wiped out weeks ago!

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Jefflee; Well my answer to you would be, would the average person know that if they flew between almost any Western European destination to HK, Beijing, Shanghai, Bangkok, Singapore etc that they would be flying over Ukraine? As every airline was until last night....

3 ( +5 / -2 )

This was tragic and should never of happened. The blame for this tragedy falls on the airlines and Putin.

First off the airlines should never have flown anywhere near the area. Secondly Putin has been arming the rebels with more advanced weapons that are capable of shooting down just about anything.

There were reporters who saw BUK surface-to-air missile system in rebel controlled areas.

Reports have come out that the blackboxes were found and were being sent to Moscow by the rebels.

Ukrainian authorities released what it said was a recording of a phone conversation between separatists and President Putin's intelligence services. In it, a rebel nicknamed 'Major' says the Malaysian Airlines jet was shot down by 'Cossacks from the Chernukhino roadblock' adding: 'It is definitely a civilian plane... there was a lot of people on board.'

http://thoughtcatalog.com/james-b-barnes/2014/07/a-malaysian-airliner-has-crashed-in-ukraine-295-people-aboard/

Putin has laid the blame for the crash on Ukraine.

I just love the way Putin is trying to deflect the blame by claiming it's Ukraine's fault he has been arming the rebels with these types of weapons. He is the one who has been arming and sending forces to force Ukraine to capitulate to his demands.

The Russian news is trying to blame Ukraine, but it's hard to blame Ukraine when Putin's rebel leader at first took credit for shooting down the plane.

Russia blaming Ukraine...

http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/

Supposedly written by rebel Leader Igor Girkin or someone who works for him. But, after the plane turned out to be a passenger plane and not a Ukrainian Military Transport Plane the post was removed and the rebels now claim that the post was a fake.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/805200-igor-girkin-commander-of-donetsk-peoples-army-igor-strelkov-says-they-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17-photos/

Then, he said, 'This tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in south-east Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.'

But, peace will only come to Ukraine when Ukraine accepts Putin demands.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696327/Plane-crash-spark-political-fire-burn-long-time-Downed-airliner-escalate-tension-East-West.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914204579395002605559222

This could have been averted if Putin hadn't been arming the rebels with these types of weapons. If he truly wants to see peace he will order his special forces out of the area.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/22/-sp-does-us-evidence-prove-russian-special-forces-are-in-eastern-ukraine

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Been a bad year, a really bad year for Malaysian Airlines.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

What on earth? Why is it that when stuff like this happens innocents like those on board that Malaysian Plane get hit by some doofus with a rocket launcher? GOD bring comfort and peace to the families, and may the wad that did this thing be hunted down and brought to justice.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Horrible, horrible news! This kind of event is just so wrong. Prayers to those who lost loved ones and let's all hope justice won't be a victim as well.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Today, we live in a VUCA world: Volatile, Uncertain, Complex, and Ambiguous.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

God will judge those who had carried out this horrendous and shameful thing! Only cowards do such a thing as taking out a civilian airliner!

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Been a bad year, a really bad year for Malaysian Airlines.

I imagine that Malaysian AIr will go the way of the olc BOAC (British Overseas Air Corporation) when they had a spate of bad crashes and folded, enven though they were a government airline.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Pretty disingenious of the rebels to try and pin this on the Ukrainian government - the rebels have no aircraft and they already have a track record of shooting down helicopters and military transport aircraft in the area. Seems pretty obvious who's to blame here - some trigger-happy idiot. I hope he eventually faces a charge of mass murder.

Personally I doubt that Putin would have wanted them to target an international civil airliner, the consequences for the separatist cause are far too negative, but he has to take some of the blame for meddling in Ukrainian affairs.

As for the families of the people involved, I am so sorry for what they must be going through. Absolutely terrible.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Let's all calm done and wait some time for the facts to come - before going ahead and blaming Russia for being at least indirectly behind this horrible crime. That way the other side will have time to come to grips with the obvious.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Pro-Russians and Ukrainians are now blaming each other. They have same ground-launched missiles. This tragic incident may be an unsolved case even if they found the flight recorder, probably it could not prove who did it. No one would accept it. Just poor 298.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw&feature=youtu.be

If this is legit and it's being reported as such in online newspapers, then it says exactly who did it and why.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

It seems pretty clear that it wasn't Ukraine. The separatists have been shooting down planes for a little while now, and even seem to be making a game of it. The flight would have been flying over Donetsk from the general direction of Kiev. Very easy to assume (at first glance) that the aircraft was another military transport. However, the plane was flying at 33,000 feet. It should have been safe from the conflict, but it wasn't. I see know logical reason for Ukraine to should down the commercial airliner. They wouldn't mistake it for a hostile aircraft. The bearing and altitude are all wrong for that. They would have known it was a passenger jet. So unless they deliberately killed innocent civillians for the sake of propaganda against the separatists, which is an outlandish theory and an inhuman act, or much more likely is that the separatists shot it down, mistaking it for a military transport. In either case, it's a tragic loss of life. Unfortunately, it probably won't be the last incident like this. As long as the conflict continues, any aircraft flying over Ukraine is essentially at risk of being shot down. Others likely will unless this conflict is brought to a peaceful conclusion.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Horrible news. RIP to all the victims. Having said that, at this point it's too early to say conclude anything. For all you know it could be another false flag operation masterminded by a certain country well known for it.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

I'm left wondering - you'd think that the TA (target acquisition) used for the SA11 missile system on the Buk platform would be sophisticated enough to detect a civilian airliner? I suppose it is 1980's technology - so maybe it lacks that level of algorithmic sophistication? I didn't think that a Boeing 777 had a military configuration that might confuse a TA system into falsely determining it was a military aircraft? Too many questions for this tragedy.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I'm left wondering - you'd think that the TA (target acquisition) used for the SA11 missile system on the Buk platform would be sophisticated enough to detect a civilian airliner?

They were talking about this on the BBC; apparently it's pretty dumb - just a radar, really.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I imagine that Malaysian AIr will go the way of the olc BOAC (British Overseas Air Corporation) when they had a spate of bad crashes and folded, enven though they were a government airline.

The Comet crashes were in the early 1950s. BOAC didn't fold but merged with BEA to form British Airways in 1974.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Thanks Trium - pretty much my initial guess when I was thinking about it being 80's tech. Threw it out for the crowd to educate me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

In 2001 Ukrainian army by mistake hit plane, those time 78 people die (check at wiki "Siberia Airlines Flight 1812" or "シベリア航空機撃墜事件"). Why no one in western press don't remind this case??

Other thing, Spain worker of Ukrainian airport(air traffic controler) in his twitter wrote those text:

"Los cazas volaron cerca del 777, hasta 3 minutos antes de desaparecer de los radares, solo 3 minutos"Carlos. (@spainbuca)

"Nada más desaparecer el avión B 777 de Malaysia Airlines la autoridad militar de kiev nos informo del derribo, como lo sabían?"Carlos. (@spainbuca)

So...it seem Ukrainian army was be those place and they are first said plain be soothed, too fast, huh?

One more: pro-Russian in Ukraine doesn't have such weapons for shoot such high flying, when Ukrainian army have many options.

Imo, Ukrainian army guess this Russian plane, cuz Malaysian flag look so similar with Russian, or they are just mistaken shoot, or they wish to shoot rebel territory, but those time unlucky plane be near...something like this.

This is European country -Ukraine and this is European mistake only.

There nothing about Russia or Putin in this case.

-14 ( +2 / -16 )

So, this is the state of the world today. Some militant extremists decide that shooting down a domestic plane full of civilians is a justifiable act of war. It's just disgusting to see how degraded the human society has become. The bombings in Afghanistan, the troubles in Africa, the BS going on in Israel, it's embarrassing to be a part of the human race. "And if there is war between the sexes the there'll be no people left!"

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Let us see how Putin get out of this one.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

to all the Sheep here quick to put the blame on Russia

It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could’ve used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

“It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,” he told CNN. “This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire.”

According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

One more: pro-Russian in Ukraine doesn't have such weapons for shoot such high flying, when Ukrainian army have many options.

Imo, Ukrainian army guess this Russian plane, cuz Malaysian flag look so similar with Russian, or they are just mistaken shoot, or they wish to shoot rebel territory, but those time unlucky plane be near...something like this.

This is European country -Ukraine and this is European mistake only.

pyuko -- did you even bother reading this entire article or go on the Internet to read the latest details? First off, Rusiia has supplied the Pro-Russina separatists with the exact type of weapon used in this incident, and the rebels have bragged about it, and there are pictures of them. Plus they shot down an Ukrainian fighter jet recently. Second, saying that a Malaysian Airline plane could be mistaken for a Russian one at 33,000 feet is simply ridiculous. Trained personnel arming this kind of weapon can identify friendly planes by a specific electronic signal the plane emits, to avoid this exact kind of tragedy. Finally, this is not simply a "European mistake". In case you missed it, citizens from all over the world perished.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Imo, Ukrainian army guess this Russian plane, cuz Malaysian flag look so similar with Russian

??? Ever heard of vexillology? Malaysian flag looks like American flag, probably because it was based on East India Company flag.

There is a conspiracy theory which says that pro-Russian rebels wanted to attack an American airliner as the flags of both countries look alike.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

It could even be Putin doing it to make the Ukraine look bad. He was most likely behind blowing up apartment buildings full of Russians in Moscow to gain support for his war on Chechnya. This wouldn't be all that different. But we will likely never know.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

I agree with wolfpack.

I would like to add though that it's only the Ukrainian military that has been bombing and attacking civilians.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

to LHommeQuiMent: I mean flag colors at airplane, it look Russian flag 100%. 3 huge line white-red-blue. American don't paint their airplanes like this, when some Russian airplane have such paint. Yes, flag of country not look Russian, but paining of national color at airplane did look like Russian flag. Did you see photos of this plane?

to jerseyboy: i did read...and in few languages, all "anti-russian" sites said same things, all "pro-russian" different thing. anti-russian said that it Putin fault, it Russia guilty and etc. pro-Russian said that it happen cuz Ukraine conflict and conflict should be stop, fight should be stop. Else that this is not Russian business, because this is not Russia (territory). It same like blame USA for something what happen in Canada or blame Italy for something what happen in Spain. If it independent country, then why everything bad what happen there is Russian fault?? pro-Russian shoot down fighters who flight more close to earth, at last as i remember from news before. Else pro-Russian said that NATO did see how plain was be soothed, but they can't say anything sure now, only that this was be not from Russia. What anti-Russian said you can read here or almost other sites in English language.

And what you think about words of those Spain worker in Kiev, why he blame Ukrainian army for this?? He is not competent when he check airplanes by his eyes??

And once again, it was happen before, Ukrainian army did shoot airplane with civil people who back home form vacation, in 2001. So please not tell me about skilled and good trained army in Ukraine, they are not

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

@Alphaape: BOAC did not fold. Themselves and BEA merged to become British Airways.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

sended comment twice m(= =)m, it seem i will get more "-" then, huh

It so sad that this happen, all this people die with no reason. Else, i wish that war in Ukraine stop, there are no reason to killing each other, they are same people. Why they ever start it. But till west will support aggressive politic of government in Kiev, it can't be.And this is not Russian fault that war there not stop. Government killing kids, women, old people, how this can claim down "rebels?" Few days ago some Ukrainian army come to Russian territory and begging for healing them cuz they are damaged, so Russian healing them now, even if they are anti-Russian, Russian not hate them because Ukraine is same with Russia, people are same... Many people run to Russia now from there and Russia not kick out them. But what west countries did for solve this conflict, at last help civil people? Army simply killing all who being there, they even kill one Russian man at Russian territory few weeks ago by "mistake shoot". There no such news in western press, but it doesn't mean that this is not exist.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Ukraine S200 missile destroyed Russian TU154 commercial airliner in 2001 with 78 peoples, so who is the most suspicious here ???

-13 ( +3 / -16 )

...What did you expect form vodka influenced, illegal armed ruskies forces.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Confirmation that it was a pro-Russian separatist act. How people could have thought that it wasn't always going to be the case is baffling. There really are some ill-informed people with poor judgement around;

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/world/prorussian-separatist-commander-igor-the-terrible-strelkov-allegedly-appears-on-mobile-phone-video-of-mh17-crash-saying-that-was-a-blast/story-fni0xs63-1226993406156

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Well, the separatist terrorists are really, really screwed now.. Not only can there no longer be any negotiations on peace anymore, any lingering worries about Ukrainian soldiers engaging their own countrymen will have disappeared completely, as well as allowing foreign countries to arm the Ukrainian army to the teeth to wipe out these mongol scum

Not to mention they've now pissed off the entire world

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Ukraine probably did it to make Russia look bad. Just like the rebels in Syria gassing themselves to make Assad look bad. And just like the Euromaidan protesters who blew off their own heads to make Yanukovych look bad.

John Galt: wouldn't it be more prudent to get the facts first, BEFORE sending out the lynch mob?

Translation: Let's give my boys some time to cook up yet another conspiracy theory.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

This is what an airliner at 33-35,000 feet looks like from the ground (at the article link below). They would've had a better idea if what they were shooting at if they'd zoomed in with a camcorder, say, but then they probably wouldn't have shot it down in that case.

The photo is zoomed, though, so the aircraft appear larger than what they would from the ground. An eighth of a way down the article page, the photo appears in three sizes, with the most realistic sized the smallest. You can barely see the plane, let alone the paint scheme.

http://contrailscience.com/skitch/Photoshop-20100313-132209.jpg

from article http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/<>

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Interesting link, OzKen. There is a bit more about this " Igor Strelkov" at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

A main question is whether it was primarily Ukrainian separatists or Russian adventurists responsible, and whether they used a missile system seized from the Ukrainian army or smuggled in from Russia. Your link hints at the answer to the first question.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

You can only conclude that the aircraft, with 295 people onboard, was shot down. Shot down by Russian military hardware, most probably the BUK system, that didn't have the aircraft identifying technology supplied with it. The technology can read the aircraft's identification, and determine its intent, use. It's just beyond belief. Those poor people's families. Appalling. Why fly over a conflict zone that has already seen aircraft shot down? (Ukrainian military craft) Many airlines were already avoiding this airspace. Just so terrible sad. Korean Airlines 1983. Iranian Airlines 1988 and now this.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

YongYang You can only conclude that the aircraft, with 295 people onboard, was shot down. Shot down by Russian military hardware, most probably the BUK system, that didn't have the aircraft identifying technology supplied with it.

To be correct :

1 Not Russian but Soviet (Was developed in USSR not Russia)

2 Ukraine have a lot of them (Russia has much more modern one)

3 Ukraine transfer some batteries of BUK the day before crash to the south -east (near crash place)

4 Ukrainian air-defence forces personnel very bad trained

To say the truth - not trained at all.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

Shooting down the truth will be a little harder.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

People shouldn`t be so quick to pass judgment until the circumstances become clearer...

Breaking news on RT..."06:00 GMT:

The militias fighting in eastern Ukraine against the government troops have no weapons systems that could have shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane on Thursday, the General Prosecutor of Ukraine, Vitaly Yaryoma, stated citing a military report submitted to President Petro Poroshenko.

Considering the high altitude the MH17 was flying, it could not have been taken down by a portable anti-aircraft missile or anti-aircraft cannon, which the Ukrainian militia have been using to attack Ukrainian military aircraft.

Earlier there were reports that the militia had captured a Buk missile launcher, which could have done it, but Kiev insisted that the system was out of order and could not be repaired by the militia.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

Ole: I can obviously see you have reasons to rationalise and avoid logic and truths, it's understandable. The Soviet Union, collapsed over two decades ago. The Ukraine, with no threat from the air, have no reason to deploy their's in the region. and they haven't. It is the rebels who have been shooting down aircraft. Russian --or is that Soviet if they are over 45?-- backed militias are not trained to use the BUK, a wary eye looks towards actual Russian --or, see above-- fingers actually pushing the button.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Alphaape: BOAC did not fold. Themselves and BEA merged to become British Airways.

My mistake.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Laguna A main question is whether it was primarily Ukrainian separatists or Russian adventurists responsible, and whether they used a missile system seized from the Ukrainian army or smuggled in from Russia.

Today "Ukainian forces" (included Pro-Nazi National guard) partially destroyed partially surrounded partially draw back

1 What the use for citizen soldiers from Donbass to shot down civile plane ?

2 To protect themselves from air attackes they used portable air defense systems

(10 km altitude - is far away from reach range for these systems)

-10 ( +0 / -10 )

The evidence gathered so far points to a mistaken attack by Russian separatist forces. We know that the separatists actually boasted on 29 June that they had captured an SA-11 air defence system from the Ukrainians... We've also got the evidence that's been coming out overnight that the leader of the separatists Igor Strelkov... tweeted that he had brought down an 'Antanov 26 Russian transport'. He then deleted that tweet very very quick. I will bet anyone a million pounds Sterling that it was either Russian or Russian backed rebels who pushed the button of the missile system that brought down this civilian aircraft and in so doing so murdered nearly 300 people.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Seems to be a lot of proof it was pro-Russian rebels or Russians themselves. kudos to whomever did the screen grab before Streklev could delete his posts on Twitter.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

One of Russia's proxies might be responsible for the biggest act of terror in modern European history - bigger even than the Madrid train bombing of 2004 with 191 fatalities. Who needs fanatics when you have Putin, ah, wait a second. He IS one.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

it's understandable. The Soviet Union, collapsed over two decades ago. The Ukraine, with no threat from the air, have no reason to deploy their's in the region.

Ho ho ho : Today Ukraine - third world country with huge debts and old style army

And Russia (2 nd world military power) easily control any movement near Russian borders

After plane crash Russian military loudly announced that Ukraine have moved Bucks from Charkive (north -east of Ukraine) to area near Donetsk (south east)

Ukraine keep silence....

no one denies this....

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

This is way out of hand

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"Translation: Let's give my boys some time to cook up yet another conspiracy theory."

No, it means make a determination AFTER the facts are determined.

Folks are too quick to jump to politically convenient conclusions.

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

@galt, logical conclusions, not

convenient

. Logic. 1+1=2.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

We know that the separatists actually boasted on 29 June that they had captured an SA-11 air defence system from the Ukrainians*

Okay, I googled the BUK (SA-11) missile system and the first thing I see is that this puppy come with 4 missiles. So, if you captured one, let's see it and count the missiles.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It seems pretty clear that it wasn't Ukraine.

Nope, dude. It seems pretty clear that it was Ukraine. A few days ago Ukranian ex-Minister of Defence of the Ukraine in interview of TSN channel of Ukranian TV ordered to "all true Ukranian patriots to blow up Russian trains on Ukranian territory and shoot down all Russian airplanes over Ukraine. Especially AF1 of Russian Government with Putin onboard ". Next steps. Someone from Poland informed Ukranians that "Russian AF1 with Putin onboard is heading to Russian airspace from Latin America". Ukranians received and were ready to intercept and shoot down. In reality, Putin really was onboard a Russian AF1, returning to Moscow from Latin America. At the same time Malaysian civil jet entered the airspace of Ukraine. Ukranian pilots of fighters-interceptors targeted Malaysian civil jet, confusing it for Russian AF1 due to similar colours of jet hull in night time. They fired air-to-air missiles over a territody of Donbass. The civil jet was downed. Civilian passengers were brutally killed. Authorities from Kiev began to blame "pro-Russian rebels". In response, rebels answered, that they "were equipped by light MANPADS, such as IGLA and STRELA". Those MANPADS were designed to shoot down airplanes and helicopters on visual range, at a height of 500 ~ 2 000 meters.In short : you see your enemy snd you target him. Plain and simple. Rebels weren't interesting in overcomplicated MANPADS that allow to launch a missile beyond the visual range (up to 10 000 meters). Despite it, the huge anti-Russian herd on various forums began to blame Russia and Russians. They cannot think, analyze and make valid conclusions but know that "Russia is an Evil Empire"...

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

SidekickJul. 18, 2014 - 05:01PM JST Nope, dude.

Nice story you got there...

1 ( +3 / -2 )

so site integrity is gone- it lies in the hands of the people who probably shot the plane down- the black boxes will end up in Russian intelligence hands - no doubt be doctored or disappear,

and the EU will continue to do nothing- sure 154 dutch - but not their plane, all this tells us is that the war has escalated and Russia will eventually win.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Right, praack. I'd heard that the "false flag" brigade had been waving this one about - as if Ukraine did not have enough to worry about without assassinating the leader of a great military power which is just begging for a chance to crush them.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I couldn't believe this has happened. It's the year 2014 and a civilian aircraft has been shot down, couldn't even imagine it... RIP...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

a lady in Australia lost two relatives in the Malaysian flight in March, and now today got the news that another two relatives were lost in the Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/mh17-queensland-deaths-family-hit-by-both-malaysian-crashes/5608524

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

From the begining "new Ukrainian gov" start to kill...

first at Maidan then in Odessa...

then in south east of Ukraine.....

New blood......

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

@Ole: Still not seeing any money for where your noise is... What a surprise, Russia has just murdered 300 people. You call it 'new blood'? Really? Stand back. Have a think of what you are writing.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Seeing that this tragedy has become a political football I think all purported evidence be viewed with skepticism. We owe the dead and their grieving families and friends that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

YongYang @Ole: Russia has just murdered 300 people.

You can prove it ?

Or just claim it ?

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

To accomplish and international probe is why many guys go to Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Putin should order a truce and for the pro-Russian separatists to stand down in order to let representatives of the international community to at least retrieve the bodies and send them home to their loved ones. It's absolutely deplorable and despicable that Putin hasn't already done so by now. What in the world is he thinking!? Looking back on history, even Hitler would have had more sense to handle a situation like this with more diplomatic skill.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Can't see what is keeping Russia from taking over East Ukraine, unless it's the possibility of Ukraine bolting to Russia to the north, possibly through Belarus. Crimea was a walkover. Sanctions minimal. Investigation unlikely to impress Russian homebodies, especially after scrubbing of the crash scene, and removal of the missile battery. (According to another JT article currently airing, "Ukraine’s Western-backed government said it had “compelling evidence” the battery was not just brought in from Russia but manned by three Russian citizens who had now taken the truck-mounted system back over the border.")

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes, it is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The black boxes have been and may clear up things. ˙Here is the link fromYahoo News http://news.yahoo.com/rebels-mh17-black-boxes-aviation-group-122858886--finance.html

The article appeared some 3 hours ago under the title of "Rebels to give MH17 black boxes to aviation group" and is written by YURAS KARMANAU, who has another article on this topic in JT. He writes: "Rebels have recovered the black boxes from downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and will hand them over to the International Civil Aviation Organization, a rebel leader said Sunday."

Other reports say the black boxes are going to Moscow. I do not know, being an ordinary newspaper reader, what is true. I presume that if the black boxes are headed for Moscow the Russians will be under great pressure to given them to the ICAO.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Isn't it odd that the West is so sure about what happened without any clear evidence? And speaking of evidence, where are all the CIA/NSA spy satellite images that surely have been taken for months, now? Or do these photos show something else that might be quite embarrassing for the West? Hmmmmmmmm.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

"What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms."

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

What a surprise, Russia has just murdered 300 people. You call it 'new blood'? Really? Stand back.

Accordind to last press-release of Russian Ministery of Defence, Malaysian civil jet was escorted by Ukranian fighter-interceptor while on the ground an active work of Ukranian combat radars was detected. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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