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McCain-Palin becoming Palin-McCain?

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finally someone the HillaryBots can Vote! for.

Not since the Bull-Moose party have Women been excited about politics. Bull-Moose 2

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Well, it seems that Hillary just despises Palin. Cat-fight anyone?

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Can McCain the genius pick 'em or what?

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Remains to be seen, doesn't it?

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Sez - Do you seriously support Obama-Biden over McCain-Palin?

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Well, it seems that Hillary just despises Palin.

Yeah, it must sting for Hillary. And now that Obama has paid off the Clintons to get their endorsement, Hillary will fade away into oblivion. Her only significance will be in reference to Palin getting any of the Hillary vote.

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I wonder who Palin's running mate will be in 2012...

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Sarge- Great post. Tee Hee!

Palin would surprise everyone with a gifted VP, just as McCain did in nominating her.

Liberals crticise Palin, but how bmany people are talking about Biden right now?

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McCain-Palin becoming Palin-McCain?

It would make sense.

McCain is kind of busy now drying off his leather jacket after jumping the shark.

Taka

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McCain-Palin becoming Palin-McCain?

Them deadwood media types shore do catch on fast.

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how many people are talking about Biden right now

About as many who were talking about him when he was (cough) running (cough) for president earlier in this election cycle.

RR

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how many people are talking about Biden right now

Rudy Giuliani is:

"I hope for his sake, Joe Biden got that VP thing in writing."

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Sarge at 09:16 AM JST - 7th September Can McCain the genius pick 'em or what?

And with that fine intro, thank you Sarge. Now let us talk about Mr. Maverick. You know good OLD McC, yeah yeah the other guy running with the savior of the Republicans. Yeah that guy the one with all that experience and know how. Does anyone remember who this guy is? Ok his name is John McCain he is running for President, you know that guy. Ok this may help, he is the one always talking bad about Obama. Ah I see now you remember.

Well now let us see how good OLD McC has sold out his principles to try to get elected. The question to all those Right wing fanatics is, do you really know Good Old McC? I would add Palin to this but to be honest, no one knew her before last week and she has no real record to talk about.

So with that, let us begin;

At one time McCain championed the Law of the Sea convention and now where does Mr Maverick stand? Well McCain now opposes it.

Hey folks did you know that good old McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act! This bill would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. Now where does this true blue Republican stand on this Bill he co-sponsored? Well now Mr Maverick is against it.

At one time McCain sponsored legislation that would require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal who their financial donors were. But in 2007 after receiving "feedback" from "friends" on the proposal, where does McCain stand on his proposal? Well, good old Mr Maverick told far-right activist groups that he now opposes the measure. A man of principles I tell you! Who else would have buckled under the pressure other than this man of principles? Well not many I tell you, not many!

Mr Maverick McCain has been both supportive and opposed to a redeploy-to-perimeter strategy in Iraq. Well I tell you this man of principles knows that folks are for it and against it! So to make sure all bases are covered he decided not to decide! Who else would be thinking of everyones feeling other than Mr Maverick! What a great American I tell you!

Mr Maverick McCain said that before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily!” Just four years later, Mr Maverick McCain has said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.” Well it seems that Mr Maverick forgot what he originally stated. But Hell who else could forget his own statements other than a true Maverick! Sure other politicians remember what they said, but they are not Mr Maverick! Bully fr Mr Maverick Bully I say!

Mr Maverick McCain went from saying he would not support a repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite. Who else but a true Maverick would go out on a limb other than Mr Maverick! No other politician would flip as much as he has flip, a TRUE MAVERICK I tell you!

Brought to you by Westuffemyoupopthem pharmaceutical the worlds number one maker of Alzheimer's medication! We are also for Mr Maverick! He just doesnt love us he is also one of our best customers!

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Well sure. Some will vote for the white guy because he's white, black for the same reason. I have heard several times that Palin was the GOP answer to the Dems' Clinton - fine, except Palin's policies favour state-controlled uteruses, which many women (especially Clinton supporters) reject.

Palin does not have much to offer America. Controlling a $6 million budget and 56 employees is not the same as a national budget in the trillions and responsibilities for a country of over 300 million people - only the desperate would believe that her executive experience is relevant or scalable on a national level.

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McCain-Palin becoming Palin-McCain?

Zogby has McCain up by 3 points.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1548

Panic is now general across Canada...

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Palin does not have much to offer America. Controlling a $6 million budget and 56 employees is not the same as a national budget in the trillions and responsibilities for a country of over 300 million people - only the desperate would believe that her executive experience is relevant or scalable on a national level.

She's running the State of Alaska now she is no longer a mayor of small town. That is just where she started in politics.

As Governor she is in charge of the State with the largest land area of all the States. It has 29000+ State Employees, 11+ Billion Yearly Budget.

Very scalable and relevant to the National level. Just times 29,000 by 49 and 11 billion by 49.

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Palin does not have much to offer America. Controlling a $6 million budget and 56 employees is not the same as a national budget in the trillions and responsibilities for a country of over 300 million people -

Like Barack (redacted) Obama it appears some just can't bring themselves to acknowledge that former mayor Sarah Palin is now governor of a state - the largest in the union - with a budget of more than 10 billion dollars and something like 24 thousand state employees under her.

She has more executive experience than Obama and Biden together.

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sailwind: yes, where as Mayor her city received 20 times the national average on earmarks (money she lobbied for in Washington), Alaska is 10 times the nation average. Gov. Palin supported the bridge to nowhere before she was against it and then kept that $223 million earmark. She is subject to a bipartisan investigation in alledged abuse of power.

So will she scale the porkbarrelling and abuses of power or will she find her road to Damascus and suddenly change?

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mar4eo And there are some who are afraid to look at the substance of Palin's much heralded executive experience. Washington basically funds Alaska - a situation not enjoyed by other states. Palin hired lobbyists to go after earmarks in Washington.

What change is she bringing to Washington again? Talk is talk (and she is quite good at it) but the walk is where you see the experience.

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the redmeat repubs love palin cause at least she has not flip flopped like mccain on almost every issue. At least not yet.

mccains latest flip flop is to turn on his own party. Amazing. But he picked Palin to fool the gullible wingers while he basically despises them along with the whole bush crowd of losers. But the true believers are not smart emough to see though the simple smoke screen of Sarah Palin the unquailified on the repub ticket. She is just dick cheney in a skirt minus the 30 years of practicing evil.

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Just the facts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYNfJ9SabFU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafijVKr1zA

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This is funny. Not following the US election circus too closely, I thought this was just a play by to get the Clinton voters. But the eruption of total hysteria on the Democrat side (both the party and their mainstream media sycophants) is something to the behold. They way they are going ballistics means that he really hit them where it hurts. They practically going insane, trying to smear that woman and her family. What is it that irks them so much?

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zurc

the redmeat repubs love palin cause at least she has not flip flopped like mccain on almost every issue.

How about Obama's flip-flops just in the last few months: the Iraq war, campaign financing, NAFTA, corporate taxes, handguns, welfare reform, off-shore drilling, nuclear power, health care, homeland security, death penalty, Jerusalem, late-term abortion, willingness to debate McCain “anywhere, anytime”, use of strategic oil reserves, etc.

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"Like Barack (redacted) Obama it appears some just can't bring themselves to acknowledge that former mayor Sarah Palin is now governor of a state - the largest in the union - with a budget of more than 10 billion dollars and something like 24 thousand state employees under her. She has more executive experience than Obama and Biden together."

Rabid supporters of Sarah Palin aren't concerned about her "executive experience". She could be a stay-at-home housewife for all they care. The important thing is that Palin is one of "them", meaning a white, evangelical Christian. This is about tribal loyalty to one of their own. But America has never been a Christian theocracy and isn't about to turn into one. Millions of American Jews, Hindus, and Muslims (probably the fastest growing religion in the US-oh, the horror!) will make certain that doesn't happen.

"But the eruption of total hysteria on the Democrat side (both the party and their mainstream media sycophants) is something to the behold. They way they are going ballistics means that he really hit them where it hurts. They practically going insane, trying to smear that woman and her family. What is it that irks them so much?"

Needless to say, an overstatement. John McCain caves in to the Christian extremists in his party, chooses a total stranger to be his running mate, and doesn't properly investigate her background before doing so. The result is a media feeding frenzy for information. If you're surprised by this, try to remember that we're living in the 21st century.

Trying to find out the truth about Sarah Palin, who she is, and what she's done is not an attempt at smearing her. For crying out loud, this woman could be sworn in as Vice President of the US next January 20. If McCain is going to declare the vetting process "closed" and won't even allow Palin to appear on talk shows, then somebody else will make public the kind of information we have the right to know about this lady.

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WilliB: I guess you haven't tuned in to the past eight years, because it's been nothing but hysteria from the right, for sure. The only thing 'amusing' about this whole circus is that some Americans are still so utterly blind and moronic that they will treat McCain/Palin like Messiah for calling Obama one.

The absolute 'funniest' part is that if Republicans vote for McCain/Palin they are actually espousing everything they pretend to abhor... but then, hypocrisy has never been a word they understand, well. They are a dictator's dream.

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WilliB since when do earmarks and pork barrelling have anything with family. And why would any sane person (Dem or Repub.) not look carefully at the details of Palin's executive experience?

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then somebody else will make public the kind of information we have the right to know about this lady.

Only the information that potrays her in a negative light it seems to me.

And why would any sane person (Dem or Repub.) not look carefully at the details of Palin's executive experience?

I have extensively and here are some of the parts you've overlooked as to her experience.

By the way the article is from 07/16/2007 please keep that in mind.

Some excerpts

The wipeout in the 2006 election left Republicans in such a state of dejection that they've overlooked the one shining victory in which a Republican star was born. The triumph came in Alaska where Sarah Palin, a politician of eye-popping integrity, was elected governor. She is now the most popular governor in America, with an approval rating in the 90s, and probably the most popular public official in any state.

Her rise is a great (and rare) story of how adherence to principle--especially to transparency and accountability in government--can produce political success. And by the way, Palin is a conservative who only last month vetoed 13 percent of the state's proposed budget for capital projects. The cuts, the Anchorage Daily News said, "may be the biggest single-year line-item veto total in state history."

As recently as last year, Palin (pronounced pale-in) was a political outcast. She resigned in January 2004 as head of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission after complaining to the office of Governor Frank Murkowski and to state Attorney General Gregg Renkes about ethical violations by another commissioner, Randy Ruedrich, who was also Republican state chairman.

The biggest issue in the campaign was the proposed natural gas pipeline from the North Slope that's crucial to the state's economy. Murkowski had made a deal with the three big oil companies--Exxon, BP, ConocoPhillips--which own the gas reserves to build the pipeline. But the legislature turned it down and Palin promised to create competition for the pipeline contract.

She made three other promises: to end corruption in state government, cut spending, and provide accountability. She's now redeeming those promises.

Palin describes herself as "pro-business and pro-development." She doesn't want the oil companies to sit on their energy reserves or environmental groups to block development of the state's resources. "I get frustrated with folks from outside Alaska who come up and say you shouldn't develop your resources," she says. Alaska needs to be self-sufficient, she says, instead of relying heavily on "federal dollars," as the state does today.

Her first major achievement as governor was lopsided passage by the legislature of the Alaska Gasline Inducement Act, which is designed to attract pipeline proposals this summer. The state is offering $500 million in incentives, but the developer must meet strict requirements. The oil companies have said they won't join the competition.

Palin's tough spending cuts drew criticism from Republican legislators whose pet projects were vetoed. But her popularity doesn't appear threatened. "It's not just that she's pretty and young," says Dittman. "She's really smart. And there's no guile. She says her favorite meal is moose stew or mooseburgers. It wouldn't shock people if that were true."

My favorite part is this from page one.

In the roughly three years since she quit as the state's chief regulator of the oil industry, Palin has crushed the Republican hierarchy (virtually all male) and nearly every other foe or critic. Political analysts in Alaska refer to the "body count" of Palin's rivals.

Seems taking on the good old boy network is something she excels at I like that.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/851orcjq.asp?pg=1

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Buddha4brains:

" not look carefully at the details of Palin's executive experience? "

Its so funny to see the Democrat side suddenly interested in "experience". All this time, "experience" didn´t matter (no wonder, since their candidate doesn´t have any). Throw me in the Briar´s Patch! Seems to be Mac-C made a brilliant chess move here.

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WilliB indeed McCain made experience an issue which is something that cuts both ways. Having read stories both favourable and critical I tend to view Palin at this point as someone who has stirred the pot but only to distract away from her own dependency on earmarks and pork barrelling.

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sailwind

When is the last time the Weekly Standard posted anything that wasn't Pro-Republican/pro-conservative?

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sailwind: "She's running the State of Alaska now she is no longer a mayor of small town. That is just where she started in politics."

b-b-b-b-b-but! hahaha... you guys LOVE to bring this up in a panic... 'she's not a mayor anymore, she's a guv'na!' And yet when it comes to the opposition you can only say what one is not. Amazing, the hypocrisy.

"I have extensively and here are some of the parts you've overlooked as to her experience."

You have extensively looked into her since.... 2 weeks ago? Before that? Now, go on and tell me again about the opposition's inexperience and the lack of interest in them. HAhahaha!!

As to 'overlooking experience', how about commenting on JoeBigs 1:07 post on McCain? Seems no one wants to comment on that, at all. Can't blame them... McCain himself has overlooked his flip-flops. Fortunately, that are those who won't.

Mar4e0 -- err... redacted... errr... frontandcenter... errr... pasquinade err.... well, I just forget your other banned handles. Remind us again how many times you've changed names and been banned?

"Like Barack (redacted) Obama it appears some just can't bring themselves to acknowledge that former mayor Sarah Palin is now governor of a state - the largest in the union - with a budget of more than 10 billion dollars and something like 24 thousand state employees under her."

I have news for you... it was the biggest state in the union long before Palin was governor, but none of you seem to know that except as of this week.

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Fox News has more articles that are neutral than the Weekly Standard.

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WilliB: "Its so funny to see the Democrat side suddenly interested in "experience". All this time, "experience" didn´t matter (no wonder, since their candidate doesn´t have any). Throw me in the Briar´s Patch! Seems to be Mac-C made a brilliant chess move here."

All this hype from a self-proclaimed 'not interested' person! It almost sounds as if you are accusing democratic supporters of making up the issue of inexperience, when it was McCain's claim to fame... until he picked an inexperienced and unknown person to be VP, that is. It's not a chicken and egg issue, my friend; McCain is the chicken... he laid the egg that will haunt him.

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gooddonkey,

I know it is a conservative magazine. I also know the Atlantic is a liberal magazine. I would not have used it as a source as to how she ran Alaska as Governor if it was published..........and this is important after she was announced as McCain's running mate.

I stressed that from the very start.........Look at the date of the article. It was published long before anybody had even heard of the lady. I consider that very important and if the very same article was published say in Rolling Stone and the date it was published was over a year ago also I would also have no compunction of using it for a source.

I don't see a real conflict of interest or bias in trying to determine what media sources were saying about her prior to her being chosen. If it was published prior to anyone having a clue who would be the Nominees of both parties and who they would eventually pick as V.P.

I would say you would have a case to dismiss the information in the article if it was published after her selection.

I also took the liberty of looking at Alaska newspaper articles prior to submitting the link. They pretty much back up all the facts that are used in the article also. She's got an outstanding record as Governor her approvals rating no matter how you spin have been 80 percent and above her entire time in office.

I'm giving the lady a far shake on her record as I look at it......all of it, can you say your doing the same?

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mar4eO: Why are you so obsessed with Canada? Jealous? I called you up on your many other handles in a post a while back, but the mods called it 'impolite'. How do you feel about it? Was it impolite? Are you sad?

Anyway, it's funny to watch you scramble and cover Palin/McCain's mishaps and stupidity by shifting things to a country you are so jealous of not being a citizen. Can't blame you, really, what with the politics of the US being so utterly insane. Fun to comment on, but insane nonetheless.

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sailwind Very scalable and relevant to the National level. Just times 29,000 by 49 and 11 billion by 49.

Well let us take a look at both the US and Alaska.

We will multiply 29000 Alaskan Government employees by 49 and see what we get.....Answer is 1,421,000 employees. BTW where did you get 29000 every where I have looked it says that the State of Alaska employs approximately 15,000 employees statewide.

Now let us see how many employees does the Federal Government have? The answer is......2,890,437 annual payroll is $15,000,000,000

You should have gone with either 100 times (if your figures are correct) or 200 times (if every other sources are correct) and you would have been closer.

Let us take a look at the Mighty State of Alaska...FOGLAS

Alaska ranks 45th for gross state product.

Alaska is also the only state in the union to allow legal possession of marijuana within one's home.

Population Alaska is ranked 47th behind South Dakota.

Alaska is ranked 1st for area Texas is a distant 2nd

Alaska is ranked 6th for Median income behind New Hampshire

Alaska is 1st for aide from Uncle Sam right behind them is Virgina

Alaska is also a Maverick state, http://www.adn.com/news/politics/fbi/ many of it`s politicians are so Maverick that they can not pass up a bribe! What a true Maverick state!

Alaska ranked 1st for most Repersenatives under investigation Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska investigation. Yes Alaska`s only Rep is being checked out for possible for slipping in a provision after a bill had passed. It looks like he wanted to pass something that no one would. Tisk tisk. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331872,00.html also look at http://www.commonblog.com/tag/Don%20Young

Moderator: Back on topic please.

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Sarge,

Do you seriously support McCain-Palin? McCain-Palin is a disaster in the making. McCain is too old to vigorously acquit the responsibilities of office and Palin is clueless as to the Washington culture which McCain now claims to be hopeful of changing.

Operationally, the only thing that has saved the Bush presidency has been the perpetually leering Dick Cheney and Palin has not the gravitas to compensate for McCain's temper or for his maverick tendencies. We do not need a maverick for president. The US is not Apple Corp. nor is it constitutionally suited to be.

If you believe that McCain-Palin have coattails and can sweep Republican majorities into Congress, it might make some sense to vote them in. I don't think that is likely, however. McCain has had some 25 years to effect change and has not done so. I'll go with the new guy who is guided by the old instead of the proven ineffective guy guided by Jane Q. Public.

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MASSWIPE

John McCain caves in to the Christian extremists in his party, chooses a total stranger to be his running mate, and doesn't properly investigate her background before doing so. The result is...

The result is McCain now leads Obama in the polls according to the latest Zogby poll. As they say, you can't argue with success.

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Helter_Skelter

Right back at ya. McCain need Palin to be the one who gets noticed because she does not have a record long enough to acquire this many flip-flops:

McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite. He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.” In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding. McCain was for closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay before he was against it. When Barack Obama talked about going after terrorists in Pakistani mountains with predators, McCain criticized him for it. He’s since come to the opposite conclusion. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it. Now, he’s for it again. McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite. McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision. McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it. McCain was against divestment from South Africa before he was for it. McCain recently claimed that he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.” McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good and a bad idea. McCain was against additional U.S. forces in Afghanistan before he was for it. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.” McCain was against expanding the GI Bill before he was for it. McCain staunchly opposed Obama’s Iraq withdrawal timetable, and even blasted Mitt Romney for having referenced the word during the GOP primaries. In July, after Iraqi officials endorsed Obama’s policy, McCain said a 16-month calendar sounds like “a pretty good timetable.” McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it). In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser. McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona. Earmarks = PORK BARREL PROJECTS by the way. McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.

This is less than half of them but I figured an absorption period was due.

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It is actually hilarious to watch people who have LOVED bush and his disasters now love McCain, who adamantly tries to distance himself from the man. So... which is it? You love bush or you are for 'change'? Let's have an honest answer, kiddies.

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Helter_Skelter

More like Zoloft poll.

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Zogby poll was conducted Sept. 5-6, 2008.

Gallup polls.

Its latest tracking poll of the presidential race shows Democratic nominee Barack Obama still leading, 48 per cent to McCain's 44 per cent. That compares with Obama's 49 per cent to McCain 42 per cent lead on Friday and or 8 points lead he held over the past week.

That would be Friday the 6th and Saturday the 7th.

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goodDonkey: A very entertaining post as to what Americans have in store for them if they're actually stupid enough to vote for McCain. Of course, like with JoeBiggs' similar post, not a single Republican can even bother to comment on it. It's a MAJOR source of shame for them to acknowledge how fickle and 'forgetful' their heroes are.

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Question for all the Republicans out there - what's your view on Sarah Palin's non-existant foreign policy record or the apparent fact she got her first ever passport only last year?

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Sushisake: "Question for all the Republicans out there - what's your view on Sarah Palin's non-existant foreign policy record or the apparent fact she got her first ever passport only last year?"

hey, don't diss her! She lives in the closest state to Russia!! That means she knows a LOT about current issues, or didn't you hear? HAHAHAhahaha!!

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Question for all the Republicans out there - what's your view on Sarah Palin's non-existant foreign policy record or the apparent fact she got her first ever passport only last year?>About the same as my views on Obama's similar non-existent resume. The big difference is that Obama wants the TOP job, not second fiddle.

For those who diss Alaska, it may be small in budget. Still, it's bigger than anything Biden or Obama have ever been in charge of.

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buddha4brains:

" WilliB indeed McCain made experience an issue which is something that cuts both ways. "

Yes. The funny thing is that now the Democrat side is harping on experience. Because even if the Rep candidate for VP has almost no experience, that means she still has more experience than the Democrat candidate for PRESIDENT. So the more the Democrat side harps on this, the more they shoot themselves in their own collective foot.

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DS: Umm.... Sushi's question was about Palin's foreign policy, and had nothing to do with the budget, OR Alaska. Did you choose just not to read it before quoting him?

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WilliB: "Yes. The funny thing is that now the Democrat side is harping on experience. Because even if the Rep candidate for VP has almost no experience, that means she still has more experience than the Democrat candidate for PRESIDENT. So the more the Democrat side harps on this, the more they shoot themselves in their own collective foot."

Why can't you answer my comments above? The issue of inexperience came up with McCain, bud, bottom line. Why is that so hard for a 'disinterested' person such as yourself to accept?

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McCain and Palin are a joke.

The Republican convention earlier this week dripped with divisive ridicule as speaker after speaker worked to aggravate the country's cultural schisms and replay worn-out harangues against weak liberals.

When Rudy Giuliani referred to Barack Obama's past as a "community organizer," the crowd broke into ugly, patronizing laughter. These, presumably, are people who never needed a neighborhood advocate. Imagine if Democrats ever reacted that way to someone who worked as an entrepreneur or a church leader.

McCain could not change his party, so he changed himself. McCain has pandered to a Republican right wing he once disdained on issue after issue, from oil drilling to immigration to tax cuts for the wealthy.

And to prove what we already knew - that - despite what he claims - McCain is just another Washinton Insider, he decided that his last chance for the presidency rests on a systematic effort to make the old politics of demonization work one more time.

His single most cynical act was choosing Palin as his running mate, "cynical" being the word used by former adviser and friend Mike Murphy, the Republican consultant caught by an open microphone.

McCain knows that the first requirement in a running mate is preparation to succeed to the presidency. The choices he preferred, by all accounts, included Joe Lieberman and Tom Ridge, both plausible presidents.

But when it became clear that their support for abortion rights rendered both men politically toxic, McCain veered toward the last-minute pick of Palin. McCain barely knew her, and his campaign misled reporters about the extent to which she had been vetted.

Palin's no better -

Her address here got boffo reviews from many of the very "reporters and commentators" whose good opinion the Alaska governor dismissed, but her speech was as cynical as the decision to put her on the ticket.

She joined in the campaign's fake populism by deriding legitimate concerns about her record, her knowledge and her governing style as the carping of the "political establishment" and the "Washington elite." She ran as the tribune of "small-town" Americans by way of suggesting that worries about her readiness to be president amounted to an assault on all who hail from localities of modest size.

She then proceeded to distort Obama's views on taxes, mock his eloquence and accuse him of wanting "to reduce the strength of America in a dangerous world." And she demonstrated how little she respects constitutional rights with this chilling declaration: "Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights."

But these thoughts, of course, were not really Palin's. They were words prepared by the campaign of John McCain, the unifier turned divider.

And, by the way, Palin's speech was the prodiuct of Bush's speech writers.

McCain has capitulated to the very Washington he condemned and is employing the very tactics that were used ruthlessly and unfairly against him eight years ago.

But - naturally - the Republicans who thrive off hatred and divisiveness, will be loving every minute of this angry and bitter McCain campaign.

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In looking at popularity polls, yes, candidate mccain is closing the gap with Sen. Obama. However, he's doing it in states that already lean red. I have been tracking the electoral votes from Real Clear Politics daily and 3 days ago, Indiana was leaning mccain. It's now given "toss up" status. That said, in electoral votes, Obama now leads mccain 238 to 174.

Taka

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Sez - Of course I support McCain-Palin over Obama-Biden!

"McCain-Palin is a disaster in the making"

That would be Obama-Biden.

"McCain is too old"

He is not.

"the perpetually leering Dick Cheney"

Sure, make childish fun of Cheney's facial twitch.

smithinjapan: "You love bush or you are for'change'? Let's have an honest answer, kiddies."

So, smithinjapan, any Bush or McCain supporter must be a snot-nosed kid, is that right?

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Unreal - in months of posting here after it became apparent John McCain would take the Republican nomination, I still haven't heard ONE SINGLE McCain "supporter" actually specifically say how they "support" their candidate.

But they've sure got a belly full of hate against the man they love to vilify - the next President of the USA - Barack Obama.

All of which begs the question - do McCain "supporters" actually support McCain?

I'd go as far as to say - no, they do not support McCain, and diehard Republican supporters Sarge will be the first to admit this, as he has already done so.

Twice. :-)

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I did not mean to imply that I thought Obama is ahead in the American electorate as a whole. I only wanted to point out that the polls are mixed right now. I have seen polls alluding to a dead heat, McCain ahead and Obama ahead. I suspect in a week we will have some idea of the effect the conventions had on the voting public; but that is about all a poll can tell us in a week from now. I also look at as many polls as possible because I think when you see the vast majority of nation wide polls heading in one direction or the other it is a better indication where the public is headed; at that moment in time.

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Taka313 : "It's now given 'toss-up' status."

How can that be? Here we got McCain, an old man who "threw his first wife under the bus," and votes 90% with the extremely unpopular Bush, and Palin who just 2 years ago was only a small town mayor and has a 17 year old unmarried pregnant daughter and a son with Down Syndrome vs the young well-spoken Obama who would be the first "black" president who would have all of our troops out of Iraq 16 months after he takes office, and the experienced Biden?

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sarge: "So, smithinjapan, any Bush or McCain supporter must be a snot-nosed kid, is that right?"

Your words, not mine, and you still didn't answer my question: are you for bush, or are you for change? You guys are the ones who started the whole black and white 'for or against us', so which is it? For or against?

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Forgot to include this question with my last post:

Why isn't Obama-Biden 20 points ahead of McCain-Palin?

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smithinjapan - I don't like your "kiddies." It implies that any Bush or McCain supporter must be some kind of snot-nosed kid. Typical condescending, liberal speak.

I'm not for Bush because he's not running. I'm for McCain-Palin because they are the far better choice over Obama-Biden. Does Washington need change? It sure does. McCain-Palin is the ticket for real change for the better.

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sarge: do you still support bush, or do you support change? THAT's what you forgot to answer.

As to your question, I'll gladly answer it. The reason Obama is not that far ahead of McCain -- yet -- is because there are still a great deal of Americans who are foolish enough to not be able to answer the question I posted above; in other words, there are still a few bush supporters who support McCain, even though he does not support bush, and wants to 'change' things. Again, in other words, they have no rhyme or reason to support McCain, and yet they still do -- morons.

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sarge: Sorry, posted that last one while you were posting yours.

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sarge: " I'm for McCain-Palin because they are the far better choice over Obama-Biden."

Is that the only reason? Seriously? So when it's proven, even in your mind, that Obama is winning, you'll support him too (I mean, he'll have a better chance, right?).

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sarge: "I'm not for Bush because he's not running."

Oh, and you can't be for both, son... McCain contradicts bush. I hate to break it to you, but it's true. Hell, he wouldn't even let Cheney ENTER the last convention, for fear of how it would hurt him. Hahaha.

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sarge: I just love poking fun at you... it's just too easy to point out your hypocrisy!

"Typical condescending, liberal speak."

Ummm... this from a bush/mccain fan? The whole republican campaign is about how bad Obama is! Man, you sure need more sleep!

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Another question for Republicans on JT:

How can McCain run on a "change" agenda when he has been part of the Washington system for over a quarter-century?

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"The result is McCain now leads Obama in the polls according to the latest Zogby poll. As they say, you can't argue with success."

Oh yes you can, especially if "success" means continuing to drag the US down the wrong path it's been on since this new century started. If you seriously think that taking the surplus savings of the US government and giving it all back (and more) to rich people in the form of tax cuts instead of investing it in something worthwhile (infrastructure, scientific R&D, etc.) is the right path, then please go ahead and cast your vote for McCain/Palin in November. Next time you find yourself driving across the US on its fine interstate highway system, remember that it was government investment and NOT private enterprise that made that system possible.

It's hard to figure out what McCain is thinking here. The man obviously has little regard for Christian extremism, unlike George W. Bush and Sarah Palin. If he is elected, hopefully he'll treat Ms. Palin the way US presidents used to treat their VPs: as an irrelevant afterthought. Theodore Roosevelt is McCain's hero, and today barely anybody knows or cares who TR's vice-president was. Now there's a good model for McCain to follow.

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MASSWIPE - I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed - McCain is NOT going to treat Ms. Palin as an irrelevant afterthought. In fact, just like Bush took his orders from Cheney, McCain is going to take his orders fron Palin. Ha ha ha! That was a joke! And a pretty darn good one, wasn't it! Seriously, Palin is going to be a very active vice president, and she will be working very closely with President McCain.

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According to the latest CBS poll, only 67% of Clinton supporters are supporting Obama. So, over 30% of Clinton supporters may vote for McCain. This is really bad news for Obama. Still, I can't blame him for not picking Hillary. Can you imagine Vice President Hillary in the WH with Obama? I think that would be a total disaster, worse than Biden.

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sarge: I'll give you points on a relatively more objective post... until the end, anyway. It could INDEED be trouble for Obama, though there's still a lot of time left, and McCain/Palin, I have NO doubt, will open up their yaps and send many a voter the other way, so there's no worry. I'm not really sure what you have against Hillary, save that we know you hate her husband in lieu of loving the moron who came after him, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

I can't wait until the debates.... I just really hope that they can debate the issues instead of constantly poking at each other -- or rather, Obama saying what he will do and McCain insisting that he (Obama) cannot, without the latter actually saying a thing about what he will do himself.

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Succinct answer- Palin has very little foreign policy experience. Then again, she doesnt need it, she's not running for President. Obama, similarly, has very little. The BIG differernce is that Obama wants the top job. Apples and oranges.

The real choice is between a hero (McCain) and a well meaning, charming windbag (Obama). The telling point is that Obama is extremely reluctant to appear in unscripted public meetings with McCain. He is a great orator, but remove his teleprompter and let him fend for himself? Obama stutters and sputters.

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DS: News flash: McCain is no hero, I don't care if he fought in the Boer War (he's nearly old enough). War doesn't make you a hero, preventing them would. War is for losers, and the current government has proven that. Even McCain 'the hero' is distancing himself from the self-proclaimed 'war president', because being linked to him is a lost battle.

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No hero? His willing self sacrifice under horrific conditions while a PoW more than qualifies him. Doing the honorable thing, knowing there would be a horrible price to pay in terms of torture and agony, marks John McCain as a man among men.

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smith: "McCain is no hero"

He certainly is.

"War is for losers"

War is what happens when good guys stand up against bad guys. Dictatorships are what happens when the good guys fail to stand up to or lose to the bad guys.

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Joe Biden is the real war hero.

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DS,

many veterans who were with mccain in the hanoi hilton call him songbird mccain cause he apparently agreed to make tapes and movies to help the VC. Many were in that prison longer than mccain but you dont hear about them at all in the rightwing press. john got special treatment when they knew he was a admirals son.

Palin has shot moose, that should count for something.

Sarge, please move your calendar forward from 1958. John Wayne is long gone. Dictators are often put in power by the US CIA. Like the Shah in Iran and many, many others. The US supported Saddam for many years, including your hero Ronnie Reagan.

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sarge: "War is what happens when good guys stand up against bad guys. Dictatorships are what happens when the good guys fail to stand up to or lose to the bad guys."

You sound like one of those 1950's magazine adds saying how GOOD cigarettes are for you.

Sorry sarge, but your new hero is no hero at all, and again, war makes no one great. Again, bush has proven that without a doubt, for those who have forgotten. Oh wait! McCain is AGAINST bush!

Anyway, not to blow your mind in frustration any further, sarge, but 'dictatorships are what happen when good guys fail to stand up against bad guys', even though you tried to qualify it with the losing in Iraq and Afghanistan, is nonsense. 'Good' and 'bad' are relative, my friend, and again, your president has more than proven that. Argol, he's one of the bad guys.

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Sarge has made over 260 (plus) posts over the past year and I have agreed with everyone of his comments. He must be a Marine. Frankly speaking, I would have prefered to have Ron Paul somewhere in the results of this campaign, but I can live with McCain - Palin - I was a "Spook" in the Vietnam fracas and I felt very close to those who were occupants of the Hanoi Hilton - McCain had guts!

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Sarge,

I'm sorry. I thought you had asked a serious question. The tone of your response clearly indicates that it was not.

Of course I support McCain-Palin over Obama-Biden!

Yes, I really thought you would. If you were really incredulous that I would prefer McCain-Palin to Obama-Biden, I'll eat my computer.

"McCain-Palin is a disaster in the making"

That would be Obama-Biden.

Would not! I notice you don't bother with reasons or explanations.

"McCain is too old"

He is not.

Is too!

"the perpetually leering Dick Cheney"

Sure, make childish fun of Cheney's facial twitch.

Sure, avoid the point and mischaracterize. I don't mind discussing things with people who disagree with me, but it's really pointless if you are just going to snipe.

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Sez,

If things get really heavy, may I suggest, "I know you are, but what am I?"

;-)

Now you know what many of us have been dealing with for years.

Taka

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many veterans who were with mccain in the hanoi hilton call him songbird mccain cause he apparently agreed to make tapes and movies to help the VC.

Where can we get these videos? The VC were down with The Cause!

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SushiSake 3 says:

Another question for Republicans on JT:

How can McCain run on a "change" agenda when he has been part of the Washington system for over a quarter-century?

This question can easily be turned on the Democrats. How can Obama run on a "change" agenda when his most important decision to this point is to select Senator Biden as his VP - a man that has been a part of the Washington system for 35 years? McCain has just as much of a claim to the "change" position as Obama does based on his years of opposition to the standard operating procedures in Washington. McCain has actually worked for reform in many policy areas whereas Obama has no record of opposition to the Chicago political machine or to his own party in Washington. The only change that Obama brings is that he is a black man. I think that many Democrat's desire to assage their there own "white guilt" and that this the basis for a good part of his support among Liberal whites. It isn't based on any policy differences because his policies are no different from Nancy Pelosi's.

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Alinksky: "Where can we get these videos? The VC were down with The Cause!"

Who knows? We only know they kicked your asses out of a place you never should have been, and taught the US a valuable lesson in moronic invasions, and useless wars.

Way back when, I went to the Hanoi Hilton museum and took a look around... it was surprisingly small, but I think they DID have a display case with McCain's uniform he was shot down in, and a pic of him, etc. It was largely a museum displaying the atrocities of Japanese colonization, though, so not a hell of a lot on the Viet Nam war.... that was saved for Ho Chi Minh City.

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Sarge,

So, over 30% of Clinton supporters may vote for McCain.

Did it say that or are you making that part up? I have never seen a poll phrased in that manner with only 3% undecided. Unless it explicitly said "will vote for" then your made up "may vote for McCain" is meaningless drivel. You cannot just subtract the 67% support from 100% and get a number that represents anything other than saying that portion does not explicitly support Obama. If any of that 32%+ has decided to sit the election out or I should say anything over 3%, because you left a margin of error in your figure, then your numbers fall apart. The truth is that the poll did not say 30% might vote for McCain. In fact the poll was good news for Democrats because the new number is 67 percent in this poll, up from 58 percent. How dishonest of you to take good news and spin it to tell mistruths.

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Zurconium;

Every man has his breaking point. McCain reached his, as did countless other prisoners who were systematically brutalized by the North Vietnamese. I can't recall other PoWs who held it against him. As for "special treatment", McCain REFUSED special treatment due to his father's rank. In McCain's case, it was the offer by his captors to be released early. This led to McCain's continued abuse.

Stop please, before you embarrass yourself even more.

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'Songbird McCain', eh? Has an interesting ring to it. Better keep a lid on that, though, it would drive the righties on here absolutely insane! I mean, they just loved to rip into veteran Kerry about his experience, but now claim McCain is a hero for doing nothing but getting shot down and serving time as a POW (while Kerry's record can be called more commendable). THAT flip-flop is also funny to watch!

McCain needs a swift swift-boating.

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DS - "The real choice is between a hero (McCain) and a well meaning, charming windbag (Obama)."

Textbook deception from a Republican.

You had better check your facts - including counting how many planes your 'hero' flyboy wrote off and how long he spent sitting in a prison camp.

Hey, McCain's claim to fame as a war hero 'because he fought in a war' is about as moronic as Palin's claim to have foreign policy experience because she 'lives close to Russia' LOL!!!

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I mean, they just loved to rip into veteran Kerry about his experience,

It was great how Kerry took said SwiftBoat losers to court and successfully sued them for libel.We all KNEW he would win. Hahahahahaa.Too funny!

Moderator: Back on topic please.

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Oh, and DS - what America needs right now is someone who is willing and able to rectify the sinking US economy - not an old man who thinks his war exploits 4 long decades ago and his current insistance on continuing the war 10,000 miles away in Iraq even without a strategy (despite his strong insistence that 'I hate war' - yeah, right!) somehow qualifies him to be President.

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Oh, and DS - McCain is the same guy who admits he is a deadbeat when it comes to economic matters.

Do you REALLY want to vote for him?

I'm glad more and more patriotic Americans who know what is good for their country are voting for Obama.

McCain - the right man in the right place at the wrong time.

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Taka313,

Thanks for the tip. I think I'd lean a little more to the humility of Groucho Marx:

If I were a man, I'd resent that.

I just feel that if McCain and Palin are elected we'll all be in Duck Soup.

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simthinjapan says;

News flash: McCain is no hero

Comments like this are exactly why Liberals are not considered as patriotic as Conservatives - in a general sense. It is why it is so easy for Liberals to make anti-American statements and are sympathetic to the interests of dictators/terrorists or even seen as being against the interests of their own national security interests.

A country can be totally pacifist but if their national security is threatened, what are they going to do? Japan and Western Europe has had the US to cover for them since WWII. As we see from Russia's invasion of Georgia, wars will occur no matter what the US does.

John McCain is a hero. Not because he is the best quarterback in the NFL or the starting point guard for the NCAA champion basketball team. He is a hero in the truest sense of the word. Liberals demean his sacrifice, and those of other people who have served the US in wartime, at their own peril. As they do so, don't be surprised that people will question their patriotism. Nothing is more patriotic then risking your life for your nation in wartime - nothing. Palin and the other speaker's at the Republican convention made this point very well about McCain and perhaps that is why so many people watched McCain's speech.

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McCain is the same guy who admits he is a deadbeat when it comes to economic matters.

Word!

We need Obama. We need wealth redistribution. We DON'T need a war on terror. We need a war on american prosperity, which breeds said terror.

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goodDonkey - The CBS News poll said 63% of Clinton supporters are now supporting Obama. It's reasonable to assume that the other 33% may vote for McCain, no? Obama's going to need more than 63% of the Clinton supporters to win this election, no?

Sez - Is not!

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The problem with John McCain are many, I honestly don't know where to start, but here goes anyway:

Too old

Has successfully convinced himself that he is a "war hero" when as Zurconium correctly states, many veterans who were with mccain in the hanoi hilton call him songbird mccain cause he apparently agreed to make tapes and movies to help the VC.

Thinks fighting the "war on terror" is somehow more important than righting a tanking US economy.

Somehow has deluded himself into thinking Obama is an 'elitist' while McCain himself was born with and spent most of his life choking on a silver spoon thanks to his father and grandfather being US Navy admirals and his second wife (after he ungraciously threw his first wife on the heap) is a multi-millionaire and between them own a number of houses that even John McCain himself is not aware of.

Reverses his position more times than a learner driver in a carpark.

Has successfully deluded himself into believing he is somehow a 'maverick' while voting with Bush in 90% of cases.

Harps on about being the 'Agent of Change' after (see above)

Uses the same dirty swift boat tactics against Obama that he derided so forcefully after Bush 2 used them to sink his campaign in 2000.

I'll need another couple of days, possibly weeks, to finish this list, but need a break.

Sorry.

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"he is a "war hero" when as Zurconium correctly states, many veterans who were with mccain in the hanoi hilton call him songbird mccain cause he apparently agreed to make tapes and movies to help the VC."

I want to meet these guys! Who are the veterans ? Why won7t they come forward?

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SushiSake3,

I don't think any of us would want to go through the things that McCain experienced in a North Vietnamese prison. I'd agree that his "heroism" was forced upon him but I think he still could have made life a lot easier for himself by cooperating fully with the North Vietnamese.

I think the best way to deal with the talk about heroism is to agree that McCain had a tough time of it in Vietnam and by most accounts (other than George W. Bush's account in 2000) he served his country well at great expense to himself. But by all means note that this is not relevant to the office which he seeks. Heroism did not make a better actor of Audie Murphy and it will not make a better president of McCain.

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Sarge,

I think you have finally overpowered me with your lack of argument.

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SS; I WOULD like to vote for McCain, but unfortunately it is not possible. As to his position regarding Iraq, he was one of few who correctly predicted the success of the surge strategy.

I would trust him more than the two lawyers nominated (for what, the thousanth time?) by the Democrats. Obama had the chance to make a big splash with his VP nomination. He wimped out, and went for the safe option- a career politician who has spent the better part of 4 decades with his snout buried in the public trough. Is it any wonder people doubt his courage or ability to lead?

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wolfy: "As we see from Russia's invasion of Georgia, wars will occur no matter what the US does."

Hehehehe... you mean the same exact attack tactics the US used in Iraq... but since it wasn't them, you simply don't agree this time.

"Nothing is more patriotic then risking your life for your nation in wartime - nothing."

Nope... nothing is more moronic. How did that war go, anyway? You guys lost, didn't you, and a nation invaded by fools won, as they did against British rule, etc. History is meant to be a tool for learning, but evidently there are tools who think otherwise. Afghans are now extremely angry at the US and the 'freedumb' Afghan government, Iraq is tanking and wants the US out... pretty crappy record, if you ask me.

And then we have Songbird McCain... a supposed 'hero' who was with bush in labeling Kerry a non-hero for his record in Viet Nam (while said leader dodged actually going to fight).

People who fight in wars are not heroes, my friend.... if you think they are, you also think Osama Bin Laden is the biggest hero in the world! He is, after all, fighting for a cause he believes in. I'm sad to see you think he is a hero, too.

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The CBS News poll said 63% of Clinton supporters are now supporting Obama. It's reasonable to assume that the other 33% may vote for McCain, no?

Not if you are talking about statistics and poll are pure statistics. I can make a statement just as valid as yours (valid being a logic term). 67% of Clinton supporters are now supporting Obama and 32%+ may not support McCain. The only validity to your statement is the use of the word may; I am equally as valid by saying "may not." Meaning it is within the realm of possibilities. But too many possibilities are possible to state that 32%+ will support McCain. Like I said maybe some will not vote at all. The value of most polls is only in the explicit data collected and that is only a slice of time. It is only representing the questions asked at that moment in time. The accuracy is dependent on the sample size but you and everyone else now knows that.

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Wolfpack - "John McCain is a hero. He is a hero in the truest sense of the word. Liberals demean his sacrifice, and those of other people who have served the US in wartime, at their own peril. As they do so, don't be surprised that people will question their patriotism. Nothing is more patriotic then risking your life for your nation in wartime - nothing."

Here we go yet again.....

First off - Why the heck is McCain classed as some sort of hero when -

1/ He could barely keep a plane in the air (he was shot down or crashed 5-6 aircraft)

2/ He was shot down (wrong place, wrong time) and sat out the rest of the war in a POW camp.

My own grandfather went over on D-Day, was fighting Nazis in Europe, fought in the Battle of the Bulge and helped to mop up in Berlin before being demobbed in '46. Saw too many of his mates getting blown to bits or shot up by the enemy. Sent back home, given a small pile of cash, a new suit and a hat and a "Bye, thanks for serving your country."

Like millions of men were.

Was he a hero? Not particularly.

Just a regular guy doing a job he was ordered to do.

But if you really want to compare, I'd say my granddad was far, far more of a hero than John McCain ever was - the latter was an erratic, over the top risk-taker who made far too many blunders and unecessarily risked the lives of far too many of his mates to ever be considered a "hero."

Your portrayal of John McCain as some sort of extraordinary "hero" honestly makes me want to throw up.

It's unnecessary truth-twisting to suit your agenda, that's all it is.

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conservative wingers are so patriotic that they support an invasion of iraq based on lies and the deaths of thousands of US GIs and billions up to trillions wasted. Yes, that is the republican view of patriotism.

Liberals can tell the difference between lies and propaganda and the truth. They also want the US to survive the attack by the incompetents in the republican party. After eight years for total failure controlling all three bodies of government the repubs have proven they are incapable of running the government for all, they just run it into the ground for a few rich companies like Halleburton and Exxon. That is republican patriotism. That is the truth.

Republicans on the board dont know the meaning of patriotism, they only know how to repeat propaganda and wave flags. Most of them are rooting for their own demise but that for sure is beyond their capacity to understand events in a real sense. Fox news just spoon feeds them the lies to keep them happy and voting for more lies and destruction and the weakening of the US state. Bush borrows money from China to pay for oil and/or wars for oil in the ME.

Kerry was a real war hero, the repubs really respected that didn't they? But when the truth about mccain squeeling on his fellow soldiers comes out the repugs play the flag card. Hypocrisy is the republican way.

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Alinsky4prez - "We need Obama. We need wealth redistribution. We DON'T need a war on terror. We need a war on american prosperity, which breeds said terror.

Are you for real? Obama wants to increase taxes for people who already have too much money.

McCain, on the other hand, wants to continue Bush's tax cuts that he vehemently opposed only last year that make the rich even richer.

Have you even read any of the candidate's policies???

(My humblest apologies in advance if I misread your gist in your post.)

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DS - "As to his position regarding Iraq, he was one of few who correctly predicted the success of the surge strategy."

Meanwhile, Obama correctly predicted that the entire war itself was a mistake.

A way, way wiser postition than anything McCain can cough up.

You are talking about changing the paint on the door lock of the barn after the horse has bolted.

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Has successfully convinced himself that he is a "war hero" when as Zurconium correctly states, many veterans who were with mccain in the hanoi hilton call him songbird mccain cause he apparently agreed to make tapes and movies to help the VC.

I don't agree with SushiSake3 on this point. I do respect his opinion. I think McCain was a hero. I think not only is it wrong to hold actions made under torture ethically accountable, I also think unless you are a spy that you should not be prosecuted by the military. I use the word spy loosely because technically you can't be a spy if you are in the military engaged in the conflict of which you are accused of spying on, collecting information for your own side. I am speaking of revealing high level confidential information. It might be different if we lived in an ideal world and means of obtaining information were limited to the Geneva Convention (not so ideal). I think we are only human and everyone has a breaking point. This is my opinion and I am not interested in changing SushiSake3's opinion. If I recall he or some other regular on JT has posted good information on reasons why they don't consider him a war hero. I was in the U.S. Air Force and I do not believe I could have done any better than McCain. Hey, I still don't like the guy with his glaring beady eyes and shaking his little fists.

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zurcronium at 11:42 PM JST - 7th September <-- excellent post.

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zurcronium ( 11:42 PM ): "Kerry was a real war hero."

Yeah, the war hero who characterized U.S. soldiers as baby killers after he got out and threw his medals on the ground. McCain never did anything so despicable as that.

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Sushi - You've even got goodDonkey disagreeing with you about McCain.

goodDonkey - McCain has glaring beady eyes? I always thought he has shining, friendly eyes...

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Wolfpack

Comments like this are exactly why Liberals are not considered as patriotic as Conservatives - in a general sense. It is why it is so easy for Liberals to make anti-American statements and are sympathetic to the interests of dictators/terrorists or even seen as being against the interests of their own national security interests.

Nothing SushiSake3 said in reference to his nonacceptance of McCain as a war hero makes him any less patriotic. No tenant of patriotism requires agreement on who is and is not a war hero. If that is your opinion than you should be shouting the accolades of John Kerry: he has the medal to prove it; that should be all he needs to be considered a war hero. Otherwise that is exactly why you are not considered as patriotic as Liberals. I am not stating you are unpatriotic; I am applying your standard and divulging the result.

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McCain is pushing his "war hero" status pretty much because it's the only thing a McCain - Palin team can push.

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mccain may have sung like a bird while in prison but he fought against torture by US forces until he just recently flip flopped again and supported the bush torture policies. The man, like bush, will lie about anything and say anything to get power. Bush broke him in 2000 when mccain was swiftboated by rove and his criminals. But now he has become bush. What a sad ending to a man who should be more than bush light.

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sarge,

reference the statement about truth above. 2 million civilians were killed by US forces in Vietnam, some say three. You think there were a few kids that got napalmed? You think in Iraq out of one million dead civilians a few kids have died? You think?

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Zurconium - "But now he has become bush."

Exactly, which is why McCain fully deserves the label "BushIII."

Republicans could hardly sink much lower than vote for the McCain-Palin ticket in my book.

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As soon as Sarah Palin's newness grows old and the truths about her politics come out, her glistening shine will start to darken and John McCain is stuck with her. < :-)

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IMHO, this whole "who is patriotic" argument is simply a tactic employed by people who either refuse or are unable to debate the issues, or who have no solutions to the issues.

Think Republicans.

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GoodDonkey: "Only 30 years after the event were their efforts honored. I consider these guys real heroes."

They are indeed. Only monsters would do the things people did in the My Lai massacre, but people like sarge are proud of killing babies and women, etc. He calls the people who would do such things, from his armchair, 'heroes', but you are 100% right -- the people who tried to stop it are the REAL heroes!

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John bush and Sarah Palin have a lot to do to. They must create enough lies to fumble the republicans and blind independents to vote for their side. < :-)

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This was sent to me yesterday. It really does put john McCain's service and time in Vietnam as a POW into perspective.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for John McCain's service to this country, but I have to put it into the right scale. Just because John McCain was a POW, it's not enough for me to make him president of the United States. < :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLWEDMLmjKk

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John McCain: baby killer, pusher of women in wheel chairs, getting his cronies to fire people against him.... sorry... but the man is a menace to the world, and should be 'retired'; meaning, put in an asylum where he belongs... he is insane, after all.

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Palin is a strong candidate, reducing Democrats to hurling inults, as they can find no real faults with her.

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sarge is in a right pickle.... he supports bush, whom mccain doesn't support, and he supports mccain, who has nothing against bombing babies, so long as they aren't American.

sarge: tell us how much of the travesties of the past you support, and the pain. You support both a man who never went to war but has waged more than one, and a man who killed children for nothing in a war lost by the US. I will ask you this question every single time you post a comment until you can give me a comment as to how you can rationalize such insanity.

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smithinjapan and adaydream- I agree with Sarge.

Give the guy a break guys. He has strong convictions, and follows them. us true patriots should not get a hrad timr of rloving our country, and supporting McCain and Palin, who will continue to keep our nation great.

Obama and Biden are yesterdays news, has beens, forget about those two losers, the public saw through their lies.

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moderateguy2008 - I thought you had something insightful to say. You disappointed me.

Obama and Biden are yesterdays news.

And McCain/Palin are today's news, so they are so right?

I'm not some uninformed voter who takes your statements as so throughly mindboggling that I should follow your post. I've been around a couple of years and I know crap when I hear it. < :-)

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adaydream- It just seems to me that you and smithinjapan, plus a couple of other guys at times, seem to be picking on Sarge, and i cannot figure why. I do not agree with evrything he says, but most is pretty sound stuff IMHO. Please respect my posts, i would not call your posts "crap", as it is your opinion. I think McCain and Palin will do a better job for the average American, and keep the economic growth on track. Obama lacks skills tp run our nation, chaos would be a likely outcome, possibly anarchy, if he were elected.

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Palin and McCain will continue our good fight against evil in the world. Obama would run away drom the fight, the terrorists would become stronger, and may even bring terror to our shores, have you considered that?

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Obama and Biden are yesterdays news. And McCain/Palin are today's news

Yeah in bizarro world.

I must confess before today I only heard about bizarro world on Seinfeld. Just now I read up on it to confirm certain details.

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When Palin's lies are felched out and all the truths are vetted, she'll be exactly what you want. Not what I want.

I was watching the CNN broadcast of John bush and Sarah McCain's campaign stop yesterday and (not that I disagree with how it looks) but McCain kept looking at Sarah's butt. I'm sure she has a great figure, especially up close, but John bush, oops McCain, should learn to do his butt watching till ther cameras are turned off. < :-)

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smithinjapan- I haven`t been posting for long, and i am not aware of the post history of Sarge or anyone else for that matter.

If as i continue to post here i see hypocricy, i will point it out.

I am trying to make my view of the election known. I believe that Mr Obama, though he has good intentions, is not ready or capable of running our country yet.

McCain has shown through years of service, diplomatic skills, and unblemishe d military service thatb he is the guy patriots will vote for. he is also a Washington outsider, so he doesn`t have to be apuppet to big business and corporations.

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moderateguy: Well, then, I salute you... though not your views. mccain has not shown any diplomatic views at all... in fact, he has a history of child-like temper tantrums and a hatred of things he doesn't know (which is about every thing). He showed that he is willing to give in to the enemy to make VHS cassettes, and after the fact that he hates them. His own flip-flopping should make any American vomit.

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smithinjapan- I don`t understand the piece about VHS tapes.

I think the opinion of political pundits is that teh biggets flip flopper is Mr Obama. McCain has changed his mind about oil drilling due to the oil crisis. Obama has now said the Surge was a good idea, after first wanting to run away.

I beleiev McCain is the bmore honest of the two. Something that particulary annoyed me about about Obama was him snubbing Clinton, who was the best candidate. I believe he snubbed her out of spite, and in doing so, shot himself in the foot.

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Remember this - http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/mccain.interview/

John bush, oops John McCain doesn't care about the health care of the country's weakest and most vulnerable of our citizens. Didn't want to spend $35Billion for health care for children.

But we spend $35Billion in Iraq in how many months?

We don't need John McCain's politics in the presidency. < :-)

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This will just break the hearts and minds of those Iraqi war supporters who want that Iraqi oil. Russia and China contracts are being revisited and will get resigned.

Have they not heard that John McCain loves the war in Iraq. Almost as much as george bush. This will just upset John McCain and his stay the course no matter what. But then we haven't heard McCain even mention Iraq lately by name. Is he rethinking his case of staying in Iraq now.

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m47019&hd=&size=1&l=e < :-)

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Have they not heard that John McCain loves the war in Iraq.

McCain loves war? Mindless and pathetic posts like adaydream's illustrate the level of desperation by the leftists. Even Obama would be offended.

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mccain may have sung like a bird while in prison

Did he or didn't he? I want to know. - Where can I get these videos?

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mccain may have sung like a bird while in prison

This is irrelevant. Everyone breaks eventually. There's no shame to this at all.

What's relevant is whether being tortured gives you any special qualifications to be president. I think it doesn't.

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John McCain is a hero. He is a hero in the truest sense of the word.

A hero in the truest sense of the word is someone who's not droning on all the time about what hero he is.

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smith: "He ( McCain ) is willing to give in to the enemy"

I wonder how long smith would hold up under torture. I guess 5 seconds.

"His own flip-flopping should make any American vomit."

McCain doesn't flip-flop. He makes adjustments when circumstances warrant it.

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adaydream:

" But we spend $35Billion in Iraq in how many months? We don't need John McCain's politics in the presidency. < :-) "

If you check back records, you will find that McCain was a strong critic of the way the Iraq invasion was conducted. You are lambasting him on the basis of ignorance.

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Nessie - "droning on all the time about what ( a ) hero he is."

McCain doesn't do that.

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Sarge, when he's stumped he offers non-sequitors about his torture. You can seen it on YouTube.

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Sarge, from Jay Leno, when McCain was asked how many houses he had:

McCain: "Could I just mention to you, Jay, that in a moment of seriousness, I spent five and a half years in a prison cell, I didn’t have a house, I didn’t have a kitchen table, I didn’t have a table, I didn’t have a chair. I spent those five and half years not because I wanted to get a house when I got back home.”

I certainly sympathize with McCain, and he served his country with distinction, as far as I know, but a real hero doesn't dodge simple questions by trotting out his war record. Victim, yes. Here? Not when you exploit it like McCain's doing.

Or do you somehow think his military service makes him immune to hard questions?

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For a "real hero," he sure did go on about his capture and toture during his Spt.4 RNC acceptance speech. 15% of the words in the speech focused on that. So I would say that he certainly does go on about that, and I think that's not really how a real hero acts. I know it's politics, and I hardly blame him for trying to play up what little appeal he has, but let's lay off this "real hero" stuff. He servced with distinction and then was a torture victim. No need to overstate the case.

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/archives2/023875.php

*...I've been an imperfect servant of my country for many years. But I have been her servant first, last and always. And I've never lived a day, in good times or bad, that I didn't thank God for the privilege.

Long ago, something unusual happened to me that taught me the most valuable lesson of my life. I was blessed by misfortune. I mean that sincerely. I was blessed because I served in the company of heroes, and I witnessed a thousand acts of courage, compassion and love.

On an October morning, in the Gulf of Tonkin, I prepared for my 23rd mission over North Vietnam. I hadn't any worry I wouldn't come back safe and sound. I thought I was tougher than anyone. I was pretty independent then, too. I liked to bend a few rules, and pick a few fights for the fun of it. But I did it for my own pleasure; my own pride. I didn't think there was a cause more important than me.

Then I found myself falling toward the middle of a small lake in the city of Hanoi, with two broken arms, a broken leg, and an angry crowd waiting to greet me. I was dumped in a dark cell, and left to die. I didn't feel so tough anymore. When they discovered my father was an admiral, they took me to a hospital. They couldn't set my bones properly, so they just slapped a cast on me. When I didn't get better, and was down to about a hundred pounds, they put me in a cell with two other Americans. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't even feed myself. They did it for me. I was beginning to learn the limits of my selfish independence. Those men saved my life.

I was in solitary confinement when my captors offered to release me. I knew why. If I went home, they would use it as propaganda to demoralize my fellow prisoners. Our Code said we could only go home in the order of our capture, and there were men who had been shot down before me. I thought about it, though. I wasn't in great shape, and I missed everything about America. But I turned it down.

A lot of prisoners had it worse than I did. I'd been mistreated before, but not as badly as others. I always liked to strut a little after I'd been roughed up to show the other guys I was tough enough to take it. But after I turned down their offer, they worked me over harder than they ever had before. For a long time. And they broke me.

When they brought me back to my cell, I was hurt and ashamed, and I didn't know how I could face my fellow prisoners. The good man in the cell next door, my friend, Bob Craner, saved me. Through taps on a wall he told me I had fought as hard as I could. No man can always stand alone. And then he told me to get back up and fight again for our country and for the men I had the honor to serve with. Because every day they fought for me.

I fell in love with my country when I was a prisoner in someone else's. I loved it not just for the many comforts of life here. I loved it for its decency; for its faith in the wisdom, justice and goodness of its people. I loved it because it was not just a place, but an idea, a cause worth fighting for. I was never the same again. I wasn't my own man anymore. I was my country's...*

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Nessie - Jay liked McCain's answer to his question.

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Jay liked McCain's answer to his question.

Do you think it was on topic?

And do you deny McCain was blowing his own horn?

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Nessie

Looks more like what goes around comes around.

BU BU BUT I was a POW. Glad to know he was the only one.

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Interesting one here, from the non-partisan Factcheck:

Yer welcome, all you wingers.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

"We’ve been flooded for the past few days with queries about dubious Internet postings and mass e-mail messages making claims about McCain’s running mate, Gov. Palin. We find that many are completely false, or misleading.

Palin did not cut funding for special needs education in Alaska by 62 percent. She didn’t cut it at all. In fact, she tripled per-pupil funding over just three years. She did not demand that books be banned from the Wasilla library. Some of the books on a widely circulated list were not even in print at the time. The librarian has said Palin asked a "What if?" question, but the librarian continued in her job through most of Palin's first term.

She was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group that wants Alaskans to vote on whether they wish to secede from the United States. She’s been registered as a Republican since May 1982.

Palin never endorsed or supported Pat Buchanan for president. She once wore a Buchanan button as a "courtesty" when he visited Wasilla, but shortly afterward she was appointed to co-chair of the campaign of Steve Forbes in the state.

Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska's schools. She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution question, but she also said creationism "doesn't have to be part of the curriculum." A few of these claims were included in a chain e-mail by a woman named Anne Kilkenny. We'll be looking into other charges in that e-mail for a future story. For more explanation of the bullet points above, please read the Analysis."

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Nessie, I don't see that as McCain blowing his own trumpet. Some people would refer to their five years living in Japan in response to questions. Five years imprisoned in Vietnam has shaped his life. If you can't understand that, I think you don't have a very good imagination.

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At least McCain has a trumpet to blow, unlike his opponents. Hahaha.

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Some people would refer to their five years living in Japan in response to questions. Five years imprisoned in Vietnam has shaped his life. If you can't understand that, I think you don't have a very good imagination.

I could understand that, if the question were "What's shaped your life, Senator?" But the question was "For one million dollars, how many houses do you have?" A simple question that doesn't require anything more than a few fingers and toes. McCain's answer was a non-sequitor, except insofar as him blowing his own horn.

Just imagine if it were me and Leno.

Leno: So Senator Nessie, how many houses do you have?

Nessie: Could I just mention to you, Jay, that in a moment of seriousness, I spent several years in a series of rabbit hutch apartments in Japan. I didn’t have a house. I did have a kitchen table, but not a house. I had a chair. Several chairs, in fact. I spent those years not because I wanted to get a house when I got back home.

Jay Leno: Thank you, senator Nessie, but our "Post-Alzheimer's Reagan Impersonation Week" is next week. WTF?! We'll be right back, folks.

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Can we give it a freakin' rest on the polling question, already? Polls are changeable, as shown by this link.

http://electoral-vote.caida.org/2004-presidential/

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mccain uses his POW badge like bush used 9-11.

forget how many mansions you have, POW

why invade iraq, 9-11

flip-flop on oil drilling, POW

bankrupt the federal government, 9-11

Same story, same type of politicians.

One difference, bush picked cheney and mccain palin. Well, both picks are delusional I guess.

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"flip-flop on oil drilling"

That would be Obama.

Obama is for change, all right. He's changed his mind on oil drilling, illegal immigration, public financing, the Cuba embargo, the Iraq withdrawal, decriminalization of marijuana... Heck, McCain's got nothing on Obama when it comes to flip-flopping.

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sarge,

get your facts stright for once. mccain was against drilling until he changed his mind a few months ago. flip-flop. bush taxes, flip-flop. torture, flip-flop. These are facts, not make-believe propaganda like what you posted above.

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Sarge I feel for you, you must feel like the last Marine standing and you are surrounded. I feel for you but I give you kudos for you will to fight. For that I salute you.

But when your Presidential running mate has never even visited the troops in Iraq I do not know how long you will survive these attacks.

But sir I salute you!

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Joe - The last Marine standing??? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You must have not seen the latest polls putting McCain-Palin AHEAD of Obama-Biden, who, by all rights, should be 20 points ahead!

By the way, Palin visited the troops on the Iraq-Kuwait border and this was before she ever had an inkling that she would be picked to be vice president.

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Sarge, ah she visited the troops in Kuwait she never stepped near Iraq. But that is another tale by McCain that has no legs.

But as I said before, Salute! A true warrior never surrenders he just falls with his fort!<Salute> Keep up the good fight there!

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Joe - "she never stepped near Iraq"

Can you not read? Palin was as near to Iraq as you can get without actually entering the country. Yeah, Palin's staffers screwed up by saying she went 400 meters inside Iraq when she didn't. This is officially known as "The 400 Meters out of Thousands of Kilometers Lie"!

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It doesn't make any difference whether she stepped into Iraq 400 meters or not at all. Even if she had gone 400 meters into Iraq, she wouldn't have been to Iraq. Foreigners who are transit passengers at LAX haven't been to the US unless it was on another occasion.

The problem here is not Iraq. The problem here is the attempt to beef up Palin's record to make her look more substantial than she is. I think we can expect this to continue.

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