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Mother killed, 5 hurt in gunbattle at California mall

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Wow, words just can't describe how horrible this incident is and the damage it has caused. Being a father myself, my heart goes out to the young child.

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The men in the barber shop were armed and returned fire, Curran said.

I guess it's no longer safe to go anyplace in the US without packing heat.

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A bullet struck the 30-year-old woman in the chest just after she put her son into the child seat

my goodness...

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Horrible, feel for the affected families.

But lets hear it from the crowd that sez people carrying guns make things safer, prevent crimes, etc.

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I guess it's no longer safe to go anyplace in the US without packing heat." stupid or brave not to.

But lets hear it from the crowd that sez people carrying guns make things safer, prevent crimes, etc." No, let's hear if from those that feel its better to hug young criminals than to keep them in a harsher jails. This was a throwdown, cut and dry and I'm willing to bet the suspects were repeat offenders from way back. I'll keep my guns on me until you guys get smart about punishing offenders. I think its stupid to be putting legal gun owners in the same pool as those who are not. But you do

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Maybe I do.

But there are way too many "Hollywood Heroes" that rely on their guns to solve ANY problem and they are all tough and trained to ALWAYS react correctly and appropriate. And they got ALL the answers on how to deal with offenders.

Atleast according to their posturings on the Net.

Pity their imagined lifestyle and ideas of handling things is usually NOT supported by the Police and the legal system and they will uhm and stutter in court about amendments, etc before being locked up.

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And where are the voices that the throwdown could have been prevented if more people carried guns, etc. Like the recent hostage situation at a school, recall the posts here ... If the students and teacher carried guns it would not have happened, etc.

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But lets hear it from the crowd that sez people carrying guns make things safer, prevent crimes, etc.

Easy. I bet none of the guns fired on the scene were legally purchased. If people were allowed to carry weapons in the state of California, they would have been able to defend themselves against these punks.

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I guess as would the mother who had her hands full with a toddler while putting him/her in the Car? :P

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Poor woman, and poor family.

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I like guns. She was very unlucky. Bad neighborhood. RIP

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I feel sorry for the child and RIP to the mother.

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@nisegaijin

So by that logic everyone should arm themselves, is that it? Whether they like it or not.

Sounds logical. We can cut back on the police force since who would need them when everyone start carrying guns. If I can protect myself, I do not need to pay the police any tax dollars. It would also boost the arms industry and provide people with jobs. That is another plus. Would also help boost forensics personnel to keep up with the dead bodies in the morgue.

Guess there is no downside.

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zenny11: You know, I've said this before on this board, and I'll say it again. I don't like guns and if I felt confident going into my old neighborhood or that of my mom's, I wouldn't even think of getting one. however, with the lax laws on the books for people getting guns illegally and shooting people in robberies (one of the guys killed my dad, got out in less than a year I now hear), I don't feel safe. If you know of a big city in the US where I shouldn't have to feel unsafe and shouldn't think about having guns, please I'm all ears.

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tragic... that poor child!

skip- that's so sad about your dad!

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skipthesong.

That is a problem that US created for itself. There are many places globally where you don"t need a gun or would never feel the need to carry one.

People who own guns illegally on average don't get them via lax laws, etc.

But you are living a life of lies if you think that carrying a gun will protect you or make a difference if a real confrontation occurs.

Over and out.

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This is just a typical day in California when two different gangs run into each other at the barbershop, it just takes one of them to flash a gang sign or just look the wrong way at each other to start this shot out. Everyday California gets closer and closer to becoming a Third World Country.

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Everyday California gets closer and closer to becoming a Third World Country.

that's radical liberalism + illegal immigration

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I guess it's no longer safe to go anyplace in the US without packing heat.

Well, the men in the barber shop were all armed and ended up in the hospital, so it seems those last three words are superfluous.

I don't see how 'packing heat' would have helped the mother. A bullet-proof vest, maybe.

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I don't see how 'packing heat' would have helped the mother. A bullet-proof vest, maybe.

Yeah, you know, I really don't see how an escalation in firepower would help to attenuate violence --if anything, from this example we see that it lead to more shots being fired and more people put in the line of fire.

I mean, look, even if everyone "packed heat" (can we just say carried firearms instead of use these trite euphemisms?) it would simply increase the possibility of bystanders getting hit. It's not as though the initial perpetrator will glow red so everyone can know who fired the first shot. Can you imagine? Everyone begins to look for who fired a shot, in the confusion, a few people mis-identify the first shooter and shoot up innocents.

I mean, even trained police who enter the scene of an armed robbery in progress typically get everyone to freeze and later ascertain who was the bad guy and who the good guy/gal was b/c in the heat of the fire exchange it's near impossible to tell good from bad.

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Then again, if everyone was armed, only a person with a suicide wish would ever have the nerve to pull a gun, because everyone around would immediately shoot him dead just to be on the safe side.

So everyone would walk around on eggshells, keeping hands out of pockets, taking extreme care not to upset anyone with a bit of a glint in their eye.

Now wouldn't that be a pleasant place to live in. Not.

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I don't see how 'packing heat' would have helped the mother. A bullet-proof vest, maybe." Even that is under the gun.... just where would you buy a bullet proof vest? in a gun shop of course.

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Why was this story taken up by JT? There are TONS of shootings and murders everyday in the US.

Skipthesong: Sorry, I don't have the answer to eliminating gun violence. But I know the answer isn't more guns. Most people nowadays don't want to live in the "Old West" where you'd get shot just for cheating at poker, or saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy.

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But I know the answer isn't more guns" I'm not either, I'm saying getting tougher on illegal gun crimes will be a good start. At the moment, most street related gun crimes puts a guy with his buds and they just chill for a year or two. They're not afraid of jail in the slightest.

Most people nowadays don't want to live in the "Old West" where you'd get shot just for cheating at poker, or saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy." No ones arguing your point... but you will get shot if you LOOK at someone the wrong way though or and god forbid you walk up on someone's girl.

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The funny thing is that if the barbers were not armed they would probably be dead meaning that 2-3 people would have died instead of just this one mother.

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The best part too about California is that it has some of the strictest guns laws in the US.

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The funny thing is that if the barbers were not armed they would probably be dead meaning that 2-3 people would have died instead of just this one mother.

I think the article was most likely referring to the patrons inside the barber shop not necessarily the barbers themselves.

Excessive gun violence, just another reason never to live in the US. I feel plenty safe with the baseball bat behind my usually unlocked front door.

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The funny thing is that if the barbers were not armed they would probably be dead meaning that 2-3 people would have died instead of just this one mother.

That's pure speculation. At this point, we don't know what happened. It could have been one of the barbers that ended up accidentally killing the mother.

Either way, it's a tragedy.

Taka

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And this is why I am happy I am not living in California anymore.

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That's pure speculation.

It is speculation I'm willing to bet on.

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Zenny11:

But you are living a life of lies if you think that carrying a gun will protect you or make a difference if a real confrontation occurs.

And how many confrontations have you personally been involved in? Speaking as legal gun owner/carrier who has used a gun in self-defense, I can confidently say that you don't have the first clue, and are merely spreading lies you prefer to believe.

cleo:

Then again, if everyone was armed, only a person with a suicide wish would ever have the nerve to pull a gun, because everyone around would immediately shoot him dead just to be on the safe side.

Here's an idea: Walk into a gun store and point your gun at an employee. You'll be shot dead in seconds by all the employees.

Don't pull your gun, however, and just spend some time in a gun shop, and you'll discover they're genuinely nice people. Just armed to defend themselves and others.

Now it's not an accurate microcosm for the rest of the world, because the world is filled with people who use their automobiles as weapons against others who don't drive the way they think they should.

So here's my better idea: ENFORCE THE GUN LAWS. There are plenty of laws in each state to prevent just these kinds of incidents. So while California has very strict gun laws (by American standards), they're meaningless because they're obviously only enforced after other incidents (such as this one) occur.

My state, Tennessee, has more "lax" gun laws, but they are enforced. It's also a "shall issue" state, meaning those who apply for a carry permit shall be issued one by the state as long as they meet the requirements. Whereas a "may issue" state requires you to be interviewed by a local sheriff or other official, who may have an agenda, or may only issue permits to those with political connections.

So it's not America's "lax gun laws" that are the problem, it's the lax enforcement. And no, outright bans won't work, period.

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WhiteHawk.

More than I care to recall. I used to carry a Gun for many Years as I lived in a year that makes the USA look safe. Was also trained in its usage from my Military service, etc.

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Make that "lived in a country". Still not fully awake.

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Here's an idea: Walk into a gun store and point your gun at an employee. You'll be shot dead in seconds by all the employees.

Here's another idea: Walk into any situation where everyone has a gun and is edgily waiting for a 'confrontation'. Innocently put your hand in your pocket to pull out your wallet, your phone, anything. You'll be shot dead in seconds by all the wannabe Wyatt Earps who think the safety of the nation depends on them.

it's not America's "lax gun laws" that are the problem, it's the lax enforcement

I would have said it's the Wild West mindset that has people thinking they need a gun to deal with 'confrontations' that's the problem. Plus the way a sizable section of the society seems to be being raised to believe that a gun is a legitimate conversation-stopper. Most of the rest of us get by OK in a world where we don't need to live in fear of these daily confrontations.

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Here's another idea: Walk into any situation where everyone has a gun and is edgily waiting for a 'confrontation'. Innocently put your hand in your pocket to pull out your wallet, your phone, anything. You'll be shot dead in seconds by all the wannabe Wyatt Earps who think the safety of the nation depends on them.

Wow, that's quite an imagination you have! But a completely unrealistic situation.

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Zenny11:

More than I care to recall. I used to carry a Gun for many Years as I lived in a [country] that makes the USA look safe.

Which country? And which part of the U.S.? And can you provide any statistical evidence that people who were confronted had a better chance of surviving by being unarmed?

manfromamerica:

Wow, that's quite an imagination you have! But a completely unrealistic situation.

You say imagination, I say paranoia. Either way, I suspect the only time cleo has ever seen a gun it's been on TV, or in the holster of a policeman or military personnel. Speaking of TV, Hollywood's penchant for stereotypes and over-dramatization seems to have her believing in myths.

cleo:

I would have said it's the Wild West mindset that has people thinking they need a gun to deal with 'confrontations' that's the problem.

What "Wild West mindset"? And what's your alternative solution?

Oh, and by the way, you're still wrong: "Wild West mindset" or not, if the laws were enforced, the overwhelmingly vast majority of gun crimes could not take place.

Plus the way a sizable section of the society seems to be being raised to believe that a gun is a legitimate conversation-stopper.

That must be a different section of society than the one I was raised in. But like I have said before, a gun has proven to me to be an effective confrontation-stopper.

Most of the rest of us get by OK in a world where we don't need to live in fear of these daily confrontations.

"Daily" confrontations? Who said they're being confronted daily?

How nice for you. Unfortunately, many people cannot afford to live in your neighborhood.

BTW, you're British, right? Are you claiming that there is no violence in Britain?

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Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

That description could also apply to sanctimonious hoplophobes. It's their mindset. Their fear of guns is so irrational, they mentally block out the fact that evil, violent people will use whatever tools they can. Physical strength, knives, your own clothing, and in my case, a simple nylon strap around my neck.

The people involved in this shooting used guns in an illegal manner, and in all likelihood, possessed the guns illegally to begin with. The laws were already in place. They just weren't enforced. That poor woman is dead because California has other priorities than enforcing its laws.

And not just laws concerning guns, but also laws concerning gang activity. In other articles about this event, several of the people involved are said to be gang members.

Also, one of shooters has died of his wounds. 20-year-old Marvion Barksdale.

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WhiteHawk.

South Africa, many of my friends that emmigrated to the states were very vocal that would rather walk unarmed through Central Park than down a road in SA.

Same way that both me and wife felt safe in Hong-Kong.

But I see you are aiming for a fight, guess what you won"t get it. Different people have different opinions and experiences accept that. I got many friends that grew up in the ME, etc too.

If you get mugged in one of those areas and carry, guess what they will KILL you with your own gun. And they are usually in a group of 3+ people = good luck becoming Dirty harry, etc while you are being restrained from behind. Those muggers know guns better than you and fully know the limitations and how to use them.

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@skipthesong -- There are many large cities in California (and elsewhere in the United States) where one does not need to own a gun. Indeed, the majority of city dwellers don't own guns. I have lived in Richmond and Oakland (both known for their high crime rates) without ever owning or needing a gun, even when I was working as a prosecutor. Admittedly, if one habituates certain parts of town a gun might come in handy, but except for the poor people with no other alternative most people avoid those areas.

As for gang fights, they only involve gang members. Sometimes innocent bystanders (such as the woman in Sacramento) get killed, but that's because the gang members tend to be relatively unskilled at using guns.

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Zenny -

BTW - you are also arguing that gun rights meaning everyone carries a gun. Many places in the US it is legal to own a gun but illegal to carry out without a permit. In those parts gun ownership is for home safety.

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manfromamerica.

Not sure where you pulled that out from.

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zenny - from America.

Gun ownership does not necessarily mean carrying a gun in your belt.

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manfromamerica.

Same for the rest of the world. Still don't prevent someone to carry one illegal(outside the home) as often happens.

I am NOT american, wouldn't live there if you paid me millions to do so.

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Still don't prevent someone to carry one illegal(outside the home) as often happens.

by criminals. Therefore as someone wisely said, enforce the laws, don't ban guns.

wouldn't live there if you paid me millions to do so.

Millions of immigrants (legal and illegal) disagree with you.

I am NOT american,

That's why you imagine everyone's packing heat and itching for a gunfight, even the grandmas.

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Or maybe because I visited there multiple times and got a lot of friends there that share info? And I have seen business contacts pack even though they didn't have a carry licence.

So many people want to come to the USA, just as many if not more want to come to europe,etc. So your point being what exactly?

Glad you are patriotic but don't let it blind you.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

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And I have seen business contacts pack even though they didn't have a carry licence.

do you work for the mafia??? That's absurd.

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No it isn't.

You would be surprised how many citizens bend and adjust the rules/laws to their likings.

This is my point the upstanding citizen next to you might be right now braking the law in some way. If he carries are you going to ask him to show his licence, etc? Would the cops do?

Rules and laws ONLY work if everybody follows them.

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zenny - so you prove my point. Banning guns will have no effect. Enforcing the law will.

The purpose of a gun is not to have a shootout. The purpose of gun ownership is to reduce the incentive to attempt a crime.

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Wrong, Wrong & Wrong.

Unless everyone is checked you can"t have good law enforcement.

So you carry a gun and the criminals will pack heavier, it turns into an arms race between citizens and criminals.

BTW, most criminals will laugh at a citizen pulling a gun as most people(by nature) are reluctant to injure or kill someone, and neither trained to shoot straight or under stress.. Forget the bravado, etc.

A gun is an OFFENSIVE weapon and in 85% of all cases useless as a defensive one. Check with the police and military if you don"t believe me.

Like I said before the Lie that if I pull a gun it all goes away is just that a LIE. You pull the trigger you better be sure of your rights or you end in the slammer very fast.

Done here.

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zenny -

So you carry a gun and the criminals will pack heavier, it turns into an arms race between citizens and criminals.

wrong wrong wrong. look up the crime stats for places with legal gun ownership and places without.

BTW, most criminals will laugh at a citizen pulling a gun as most people(by nature) are reluctant to injure or kill someone, and neither trained to shoot straight or under stress.. Forget the bravado, etc.

why do you keep assuming guns are for carrying around for gunfights? owning a gun in the home will more than likely discourage a would-be break in. in a carry situation, knowing a would-be victim might be carrying a gun will more than likely discourage a would be attacker.

your arms race hypothesis is funny but not at all realistic.

you seem to think that all gun owners shoot people.

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manfromamerica.

I checked the stats and also talk daily with cops from all over the globe as we are part of a network. And you could NOT be more wrong. And your petty snipes, etc been so 40yrs ago.

Like I said done here.

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zenny - why do you think gun owners will shoot? Fact: the possibility of you owning a gun IS a deterrent to a would-be criminal. They don't want a shootout either, just an easy score.

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owning a gun in the home will more than likely discourage a would-be break in. in a carry situation, knowing a would-be victim might be carrying a gun will more than likely discourage a would be attacker.

So what you're saying is that as long as I carry a gun in my house and put a sign out front which says "BEWARE: I have a gun!" and tell everyone in my neighborhood that I have one, then I would be safe. Cool.

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I checked the stats and also talk daily with cops from all over the globe as we are part of a network. And you could NOT be more wrong. And your petty snipes, etc been so 40yrs ago.

Ok what are the stats, with sources please.

Really you talk to cops all over the globe on a daily basis, what are their names and what departments do they work at?

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It seems my previous response was pulled by the mods for some reason or another, so I'll have to write everything again.

Zenny11:

South Africa, many of my friends that emmigrated to the states were very vocal that would rather walk unarmed through Central Park than down a road in SA.

Central Park is safer these days because a recent mayor decided it was time to enforce laws against criminal activity. What a concept: Going after bad people ended up reducing bad things being done with guns.

Different people have different opinions and experiences accept that.

I do. You're the one having trouble accepting the opinions and experiences of others.

If you get mugged in one of those areas and carry, guess what they will KILL you with your own gun.

If you say so, but this story (and the subsequent discussion) is about guns and crime in America. And here, the result is typically quite the opposite: (Well, I tried to post two articles from a Houston news station that recounted two stories of citizens using guns against armed robbers and killing them, in the same neighborhood, within two days time. But the great and wise JT automatic moderation software wouldn't let me post the links because they were "potentially offensive content". Oh well. On Friday in Houston, a jewelery store owner shot and killed three armed robbers. And the police are calling him a hero.)

I can find you hundreds more articles like that. If JT would just let me post the links...

And they are usually in a group of 3+ people = good luck becoming Dirty harry, etc while you are being restrained from behind.

In my previous response, I went into detail about my experience, and the experience of an acquaintance who was mugged in just the fashion you describe. Perhaps that is what got my post pulled by the mods? As I no longer have the email address I registered with, I don't know. To make it short, I was restrained from behind, albeit by a lone assailant, and had no trouble using my gun in self-defense.

Those muggers know guns better than you and fully know the limitations and how to use them.

Don't be ridiculous. I grew up hunting and shooting, having been carrying for many years, and have successfully used a gun in self-defense. By contrast, I see gang members or wannabes (like the ones in the original article) at the range on occasion. They hold their handguns sideways because they saw it done in a movie or rap video, don't hit a thing, and then are asked to leave by the RSO (range safety officer).

This is my point the upstanding citizen next to you might be right now braking the law in some way. If he carries are you going to ask him to show his licence, etc? Would the cops do?

Yes, the police do check for carry permits when they see that a citizen is armed. At least here in Tennessee they do.

BTW, most criminals will laugh at a citizen pulling a gun as most people(by nature) are reluctant to injure or kill someone, and neither trained to shoot straight or under stress.. Forget the bravado, etc.

I've asked you before about your experience with criminals, and you talked of other countries and cultures. My personal, direct experience here in the U.S. proves that you are completely wrong and thoroughly out of touch with the climate here.

A gun is an OFFENSIVE weapon and in 85% of all cases useless as a defensive one. Check with the police and military if you don"t believe me.

Much of my family is in the military, and I know quite a few policemen and detectives. You are utterly, completely wrong.

Like I said before the Lie that if I pull a gun it all goes away is just that a LIE.

Really? Worked for me just fine. The fact that I'm alive and writing this proves that you're wrong.

It's just fascinating that - far removed from the U.S. - you insist that American citizens improve their chances of surviving robberies - armed and otherwise - by being unarmed and defenseless. Just fascinating. In a bizarre, disturbed way.

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Really? Worked for me just fine. The fact that I'm alive and writing this proves that you're wrong.

Whitehawk: The fact that I've lived my whole life without ever owning a gun and never needing it proves your point about everyone needing a gun as wrong. In fact, none of my friends own a gun either and neither one of them has ever had to fear for their lives as well.

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No, Hotbox08, it just proves that you and your friends have never been mugged, assaulted, robbed, car-jacked, raped, etc. And my point isn't that "everybody needs a gun". My points are that people have an inalienable right to provide for their own defense, that guns are effective personal defense tools, and that America doesn't have "lax gun laws" but rather lax law enforcement.

I don't know if I'll ever need to defend myself again. In fact, I hope I don't. But the one time I did have to, I'm glad I was armed. So for the foreseeable future, I will remain armed. If you and your friends can afford to live in safe, secure areas where your safety is not at risk, consider yourselves blessed and don't take it for granted.

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