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Muslim clerics lash out against Islamic State

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By VIVIAN SALAMA

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Is it real?

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Good. More of this, and more reporting of it too, please.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Muslim clerics lash out against Islamic State

They should unite and condemn ALL the previous and future murders of innocent civilians.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

It was a condemnation of this single act, not a wholehearted condemnation of IS and their methods, ideology and aims. I don't think they deserve much in the way of praise, to be frank.

14 ( +15 / -1 )

Saying that ISIS is Muslim is like saying that the Branch Davidians in Waco were Christians.

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

Saying that ISIS is Muslim is like saying that the Branch Davidians in Waco were Christians.

Of course, ISIS are Muslims, they are practicing a radical, crazy from of Islam, but nonetheless it is ISLAM. They always shout "Takbir, Alahu Akbar" That is NOT Christian or Judaism, it's Islam.

But I do agree and hope more of the moderates speak out and keep it up.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Saying that ISIS is Muslim is like saying that the Branch Davidians in Waco were Christians.

Yep, lets just ignore the 20% of Muslims who believe apostasy should be punishable by death. Just different cultures there.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

That's as absurd as saying that the Crusades had nothing to do with Christians.

It certainly had something to do with recapturing conquered Byzantine lands.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Now on Faux news - reporters question why there is no outrage coming from the Muslim community over the execution of the Jordanian pilot.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

I remember reading a story that Osama Bin Ladin, before the events of 9-11 took place, was concerned about something in the Koran forbidding the killing of innocents, so he went to a cleric to ask about it. The cleric found some support allowing it if the innocent that was killed was part of the enemy.

I have no idea if this story is actually true, or if there is anything in the Koran or hadiths to support this, but if there is something to this story, I'd be interested to know what Muslims actually think about this, and what they would say to a more fundamentalist Muslim who quoted something like this. What is their counter-quote?

(I'm not, by the way, interested in a cut and pasted thing from some group or blog that doesn't like Muslims. We've all seen enough of that.)

3 ( +3 / -0 )

lets just ignore the 20% of Muslims who believe apostasy should be punishable by death.

So do you think we should be policing people for their beliefs now?

-9 ( +2 / -12 )

reporters question why there is no outrage coming from the Muslim community over the execution of the Jordanian pilot.

They meant, the majority of the Muslim world and they are 100% right.

So do you think we should be policing people for their beliefs now?

We can make sure they don't bring that crap to our countries. If they want to do it in their countries, I hate it, it's barbaric, but just don't bring it to the states. If they do, YES, they should be policed, arrested tried and given whatever sentence the law allows.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Abu Mohammed al-Maqdesi, considered a spiritual mentor for many al-Qaida militants, said the killing of Lt Muath al-Kaseasbeh is "not acceptable in any religion."

Notice how he said that the killing of Lt Muath al-Kaseasbeh was not acceptable. He never mentioned anything about the killing of infidels, you know non-Muslims.

All Kafirs are fair game in their Jihad.

Verse 9 explains a whole lot!

http://quran.com/9

Iranian Shiite cleric Ayatollah Mohammad Emami Kashani claimed in his sermon that militant groups like the Islamic State are created by Western nations as a means for promoting "an ugly picture of Islam."

Love the way they try and create conspiracy theories, sadly many will fall for it. But, the reality is that the West didn't create ISIS or any other terrorist Islamic Jihadist group, it has always been a part of Islam.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Any religion is now useless in this day and age, just an excuse for barbarity. When did anyone float up or preform a mirical in the last 2000 years...none. Beheadings, immolation get with 2015. You are dumb to believe in anything but your own actions.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

'Iraq’s top Sunni mufti, Sheik Mahdi al-Sumaidaie, said the crime against al-Kaseasbeh is “unprecedented,” adding that “the Prophet Muhammad said that only God can punish with fire.”

The top Mufti of WTF statements speaks. So, burning somebody alive could be seen as blasphemous? Thanks for that. As we all know, offending God is what really matters when somebody has been set on fire and left to burn to death. As long as Muslim leaders are able to say utterly insane rubbish like this, there's no hope.

/

4 ( +6 / -2 )

I see, so beheadings, enslavement, genocide, conquest, stoning and taping women then executing the rape victims is all not insane enough For Islamic clerics to ban together against attrocity.

meaningless statements, they are still creating and maintaining the culture and traditions which cause these animal as ls to exist.

Unlike these clerics my morals come from the respect for unalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuing happiness. I don't need to look in holy books or wait for imams to say if rape, murder, beheading and etc... are wrong. I know inherently it is wrong because respecting someone else's liberty and life are self evident.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@bass4funk

Of course, ISIS are Muslims, they are practicing a radical, crazy from of Islam, but nonetheless it is ISLAM. They always shout "Takbir, Alahu Akbar" That is NOT Christian or Judaism, it's Islam.

Nope, it's not Islam and they're not Muslims. Them shouting 'allahu akhbar' doesn't make them Muslims. Where I come from some Christians use the phrase too. And so can you, if you want - won't make you Muslim, rest assured.

-9 ( +0 / -10 )

Nope, it's not Islam and they're not Muslims. Them shouting 'allahu akhbar' doesn't make them Muslims.

Amazing, they seem to think they are. What makes you think you know what Islam is and what makes a true muslim short of asking Mohammed himself? They do their prayers, they have requirements to study the Qur'an, there are too many hadiths, and texts in the Qur'an that support many of the extremist's violent and aggressive actions towards others. The historical facts of Mohammed's life as written by his own follower's show that they're spot on about many of the things they do.

Many ex-muslims have stated that what we've been seeing is what we've been getting from Islam. Can't change thousands of years of Islamic historical facts nor pretend it didn't happen.

8 ( +9 / -0 )

'Nope, it's not Islam and they're not Muslims. Them shouting 'allahu akhbar' doesn't make them Muslims. Where I come from some Christians use the phrase too. And so can you, if you want - won't make you Muslim, rest assured.'

It's true that shouting something doesn't make you part of a religion. I'm an atheist but I've picked up expressions like 'God!' as an expression of shock or my wife, also an atheist, insists on saying 'bless you' after I sneeze. However, joining a group called 'Islamic State' which has the express purpose of creating an Islamic caliphate implementing Shariah does suggests this has something to do with Islam. This group isn't a ragbag of various religions as far as I know.

I'm always surprised at how many people are able to say 'it's not Islam'. Apologists for Islam keep telling us that people are guilty of judging Islam as monolithic ( clearly not the case when you see the Sunnis and Shias blowing each other to pieces ) and that there are many interpretations of the faith. IS certainly claim to be Muslims. On what or whose authority can you say this group aren't Muslims?

8 ( +9 / -1 )

About time, too. Nothing will change in the Islamic world unless Muslims seriously back it to change. 'Islamic State' is, debatably, not 'Islamic', and it definitely not a 'state'. They are terrorists and so thrive on the public attention their acts of violence get. In a way they probably think it legitimizes them. They should be given no credit to the point, minor as it seems, that any mention of their self-proclaimed name 'Islamic State' should remain between those marks ' ' to show it not an official recognition of the intent or value of either word. On that point, I think the Japanese press should not refer to them as as 'イスラム国' but as 'イスラムコク'.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Nope, it's not Islam and they're not Muslims.

They say, they are doing it in the name of Allah, so that makes them Muslims. They're not Christians, they are NOT Jewish or Atheists, are they? No, they are Radical Islamists, whether you want to accept it or not is irrelevant, that's whatvthey are, that's what they refer to themselves as.

Them shouting 'allahu akhbar' doesn't make them Muslims.

Give me a break, tell that please to the other progressive head in the sand liberals.

Where I come from some Christians use the phrase too. And so can you, if you want - won't make you Muslim, rest assured

Again, you may call them want you want. Whatever makes you feel better. I prefer to call them what they are, radical Islamists.

6 ( +8 / -1 )

It was not so long ago that the bush "shock and awe" campaign to destroy Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, was nearly 100% supported by US Christians. Many posting here were cheering then for the death and destruction of a muslim country in large measure because they were not Christian. So to quote your bible, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims were killed by this crusade by the christian nation of the USA and the born again christian President bush. ISIS murders are a drop in a bucket compared to this state sponsored terrorism driven by religious dogma in the Iraq invasion. So much hypocrisy in religion, just amazing. We can do what we want to anyone cause God is on our side, but others who do the same are evil.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

It was not so long ago that the bush "shock and awe" campaign to destroy Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9-11, was nearly 100% supported by US Christians.

Bush's intention was never to destroy Iraq. Please get your facts right.

Many posting here were cheering then for the death and destruction of a muslim country in large measure because they were not Christian.

You are making stuff up, no one wishes any harm going to any innocent person, but in a war, innocent people will die. So how do you feel about the thousands that died under the radical Islamists? Where is your outrage?

So to quote your bible, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims were killed by this crusade by the christian nation of the USA and the born again christian President bush.

Not even close to the same. No one was using Jesus name to justify a war. Again, where is the proof the soldiers were murdering and massacring people to pass a religious and political agenda.

ISIS murders are a drop in a bucket compared to this state sponsored terrorism driven by religious dogma in the Iraq invasion.

Add to that, the ignorance and reluctantancy of Obama to not take the advice of his military advisors serious to thwart ISIS when they were in their infancy stage.

So much hypocrisy in religion, just amazing. We can do what we want to anyone cause God is on our side, but others who do the same are evil.

When you hear daily news reports of Chrisitans doing exactly the same thing ISIS is doing and having women to dress a certain way, you migh have a point, other than that, it's just spin.

4 ( +6 / -1 )

@Honestdictator So YOU know what Islam is, I suppose? I'm a muslim and I say they aren't (or, put another way, I will not acknowledge them as muslims). From the sound of it, you're anything but a muslim but you seem to insist that they are. Hmm. You're one of these ex-muslims, perhaps? Can't be, your ignorance is too obvious...

@jimizo

They say, they are doing it in the name of Allah, so that makes them Muslims. This is really funny. But, as you said, whatever makes you feel better.

@Honest dictator, jimizo, bassfunk If you guys WANT to call them Muslims by all means. You might want to consider (reconsider, rather - I'm sure you've already given it ample thought) why a lot of Muslims just couldn't be bothered anymore to engage in 'intelligent discussion' with people who just need to hate Islam.

-7 ( +0 / -8 )

If you guys WANT to call them Muslims by all means.

Because that's what they are.

You might want to consider (reconsider, rather - I'm sure you've already given it ample thought) why a lot of Muslims just couldn't be bothered anymore to engage in 'intelligent discussion' with people who just need to hate Islam.

More like, many Muslims just don't want to say anything or speak out against radical Islam. That's on them and many choose not to engage, that's not the only problem, intelligent discussions go both ways and many moderates just won't speak out or condemn radical Islam.

6 ( +8 / -1 )

Practically is essential. Islamophobes may rant and beat their chests all they want, but it does no good. At its heart, Islam is fundamentally no different from Christianity; the spasm Islam is undergoing is analogous to the Crusades (ask any Jew which country he'd rather have lived in during that time). Christianity had its reformation; the challenge of our day is to aid the Muslims in achieving their own.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

It'll never change unless Muslims take a strong lead on it.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@kikai I think you should see the onus is on you here to tell us why these people aren't Muslims. I think your statement 'I will not acknowledge them as Muslims' sounds more like 'I prefer not to think of them as Muslims'. IS doing disgusting things doesn't mean you can dismiss these people as not Muslims - people have and still do disgraceful things in the name of many faiths ( incidentally, I don't hate Islam - I just think this world would be a better place without the needless divisions created by religions ). IS tell us non-stop of their devotion to Islam. Do you think they are lying about this? Is there anything you've seen or heard from them which could tell us they don't believe in the existence of Allah, the veracity of his prophet Mohammed and the sincerity of their particular reading of the Koran? If you have, please share it with us. Up to now all you've done is imply that you know what can disqualify someone from being a Muslim without any explanation. It sounds like you are saying these people do terrible things, therefore, they can't be Muslims. Surely you can't be saying that?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

How about putting your money where your mouth is and shut down the behind the scenes contributions to ISIS and get with the program.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Muslim clerics lash out against Islamic State they should be outspoken much more about these scum and any other that murders in the name of Islam, muslims look up to these leaders and when they say nothing its like giving an approval of what is a cancer in Islam

4 ( +4 / -0 )

That article needs to be taken with a spoon of salt. Firstly, quoting Shiite clerics is irrelant, since ISIS is radical Sunni outfit and at war with the Shiites anyway.

Now the number of Sunni clerics quoted in the article is quite small, and those from Saudi Arabia are obviously speaking on behalf of the Saudi royal family which would be replaced in an ISIS Caliphate.

It would be nice if this world-wide condemnation of ISIS by Sunni clerics around the world existed, but I don´t see it and the article does not describe it.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

“the Prophet Muhammad said that only God can punish with fire.”

Good grief!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

kikai:

" Nope, it's not Islam and they're not Muslims. Them shouting 'allahu akhbar' doesn't make them Muslims. Where I come from some Christians use the phrase too. And so can you, if you want - won't make you Muslim, rest assured. "

Oh really. Christians are shouting "Allahu Akbar" in your neighbourhood? I would like hear more about that.

As for ISIS, they call their Caliphate the ISLAMIC state. Not the Buddhists state or Catholic state. Their flag is the Shahada, their law is literal Shariah, their Caliph has a doctorate in islamic theology, and they give people in the areas they conquer the choice to convert to Sunni islam or die. So tell us what exactly they are if not muslim???

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Saying that ISIS is Muslim is like saying that the Branch Davidians in Waco were Christians.

They are definitely a cult, but also Muslims, and not heretical (unlike the Davidians).

What they are is a Middle Eastern cult spreading a strict interpretation of the teachings of Mohammed through violence and oppression.

How very much like the spread of Islam during the lifetime of Mohammed himself.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

kikaiFeb. 07, 2015 - 02:44PM JST @Honestdictator So YOU know what Islam is, I suppose? I'm a muslim and I say they aren't (or, put another way, I will not acknowledge them as muslims).

(out of respect for your beliefs and not because I believe I shall start our debate with)

In the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful

I will ask you the following questions...

Are actually saying that ISIS members aren't members Islam? If so, can you please provide some facts to back up your claims?

I have some simple questions for you,

1.) Have you ever argued your beliefs with someone who was a member of one of those radical groups?

2.)Have you tried to call anyone of them non-Muslims to their face?

3.) Are you a Sunni, Shia, Kurdish, Sufi scholar/Imam (Imamah)?

4.) Are you someone that can sway the radicals within those sects of Islam away from their Jihad?

5.) Are you a renowned cleric who can issue a fatwa that your followers will adhere to?

Even though I already know the answer to all these questions I would still bet a few pounds of gold that you wouldn't admit the truth.

Okay, let's continue with your argument and see if you even will reply......

More questions for you..... (BTW, I will answer each and every of your questions with no problems.)

These are some terrorist groups that claim to be Islamic Jihadist, can you provide us factual information (proof) to expose these groups as not being members of Islam

Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Abdullah Azzam Brigades, Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine, Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi, Ansar Bait al-Maqdis, Ansar al-Islam, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, etc etc etc etc etc

I await your response and hope you bring forth evidence that will expose some grand conspiracy against Islam.

But, now back to reality, I am certain that you don't have any, and I do mean any factual proof that there is any conspiracy against Islam. Because all those terrorist groups are part of Islam the same as the Army of God and the LRN are radical Christian terrorists groups.

The only difference between them is the dogma they follow.

You could try and deny it, but the truth is before you. You can try and create all the conspiracy theories you wish, but the truth is that Islam has a radical problem and the world is paying for that problem.

You may try and blame this problem on the UK/France/the US/ Freedom of Expression or whatever you wish. But the truth is that this problem lies within Islam and it's inability to conform to the times and places where it lives.

This problem wasn't created by the US, this problem is one that has been lying within Islam for a long time and there are very few cures.

IMHO, what you have is a hope that ISIS and the other radical groups aren't Islamic. But, I ask you, who are you to claim that they aren't Muslims?

The truth is before you....

The followers of all these Jihadi groups are in Jihad and ending their Jihad can only be accomplished by either victory or their death.

Prove me wrong.

Ordo Ab Chao

Before you come out with some finger pointing and accusation, let me inform you that I have read the noble Qur'an on many occasions, many different Bibles, countless Buddhist scriptures and I am an Atheist. I respect religions that are tolerant of my disbeliefs.

BTW, read all those because I study history.

Let's talk and not try to kill each other because of what we believe in or what we don't believe.

I hope you reply to my comments and questions in a non-hostile voice or thought, but in a rational form.

Peace unto you. As-Salamu-Alaykum...(forgive me if I butchered it going from memory, been a few years since I used that phrase)

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@JoeBigs, actually yoou and I have alot in common in regards to religion. I have also carefully read the various book pertaining to the religions and their belief to better debate with anyone on the merits of the conversations and not blind personal emotions.I am also an avid reader and student of all history and not just a selected few. I personally believe that religion is the greatest trick ever pulled and is poisonious, however I am also tolerate of them believing what they believe as long as it does not include the with or against clause and the peacefully respect those that are not of their faith. Once again many fail to mention that Mohammed was and remained a warrior with a warrior way of thinking. spend several yearsover there and I seen so much hate in their eyes when it came to their God being the one and only true god and the only other time that I had seen anything close to that was with Christianswhen questioning the bible.I care not to take away anyone's religion just the false logic and justification to take away someone's life. Peace be with you my brother and enjoyed your comment.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Honestdictator So YOU know what Islam is, I suppose? I'm a muslim and I say they aren't (or, put another way, I will not acknowledge them as muslims). From the sound of it, you're anything but a muslim but you seem to insist that they are. Hmm. You're one of these ex-muslims, perhaps? Can't be, your ignorance is too obvious...

Believe whatever you want, but I go by facts, personal experiences and not blind ideology of how I think things should be. We're dealing with the current issues now based on the actions of a man with an idea. My uncle is muslim btw, and it was him that gave me my Qur'an over 21 years ago. Never have been a follower of Islam, but I know plenty who have been, and many of them are extremely intelligent enough to understand what's wrong with Islamic ideology to reject it to the point that they left and then even created support groups to help others understand.

As you're a practicing Muslim you always seem to come from a point of view of blindly protecting Islam first from any criticism. I don't think the extremists (and their supporters and financial backers) acknowledge you as a true muslim either from their perspective...

Where I come from if a person can't critically question their beliefs and call a spade a spade, then they're faith is blind and want to pretend any bad aspects don't exist. Why do any of these extremist groups even exist in the first place? What is their end goals? What makes them believe that Islam is the one true religion that everyone in the world must follow?

If a religion or ideology is having a vastly negative impact on the world, it's going to be widely criticized and questioned. You're going to have to realize that. No amount of apologetics, white-washing, sidestepping, and distracting from the main cause of current issues is going to change that.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

if mohammad still lives, be assured he will be happy that the caliphate is now undergoing its own establishment process, no matter the cost. so why ignore them as 'not muslims'!! the term caliphate itself is only a muslim word, u won't find it in any other religious texts.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

HonestDictator:

" My uncle is muslim btw, and it was him that gave me my Qur'an over 21 years ago. Never have been a follower of Islam, but I know plenty who have been, and many of them are extremely intelligent enough to understand what's wrong with Islamic ideology to reject it to the point that they left and then even created support groups to help others understand. "

...and that is why it is so important to protect freedom of speech. Muslim activists everywhere are pushing for introduction of blasphemy laws, which would make any criticism of islam impossible, as in fact is the case in all Shariah countries. If the West caves, we are lost.

zurconium:

" One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. "

I just KNEW that you would come with that talking point. Note that you are not talking about a verified quote, but about the claim of one guy, an activist with an obvious agenda. If you take that at face value, you might as well believe all the propaganda emanating from ISIS.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Practically is essential. Islamophobes may rant and beat their chests all they want, but it does no good. At its heart, Islam is fundamentally no different from Christianity; the spasm Islam is undergoing is analogous to the Crusades (ask any Jew which country he'd rather have lived in during that time).

You are using the past tense. We are NOT talking about now and if you compare the brutality that the radicals are inflicting there is nothing like it, nothing. But again, show me a time within the last 20 years where Christians were on a mass crusade to push Christianity on the world by any means.

Christianity had its reformation; the challenge of our day is to aid the Muslims in achieving their own.

The challenge is for the Muslims to do it themselves and to lead the way.

The greatest loss of muslim lives was the Iran-Iraq war, which under Reagan the US supplied both sides with arms. That does not make me feel proud to be an American.

Yes, but the thought was one persons enemy is another persons friend. I am proud, very proud to be an American and we thought to do what at that time was right, I have no problem with that.

Bush said he was told by God/Jesus to invade Iraq. Here is one exact quote but there are so many others.

There is absolutely NO proof whatsoever that Bush was thinking it nor did he say that.

And again US Christians were almost 100% supportive of the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. Why?

It wasn't only Christians, but Jews and Atheists and Americans from sorts of faith that supported the invasion, this wasn't at all a Christian crusade of any sort. The mission was to topple Saddam to do a regime change, religion had NO part in it.

Because they wanted and still want to go to war with a muslim nation. It fulfills their restoration delusions.

Again, where is the concrete proof that, that was wanted, the goal or said.

Quote from Sarge, When you hear daily news reports of Chrisitans doing exactly the same thing ISIS is doing

Total BS! No one was going and killing people, in the name of Christ, NO ONE to even make the comparison it completely ludicrous!

A quote below from a muslim father fearing for the life of his family.

“I don’t even know Chad,” he said. “But what can I do? If I stay, the Christians will use every opportunity to kill me and my family.”

Now compare that claim to the thousands and thousands of Muslims that died under Muslim hands and the terror and fear that these people have is NOT of Christians coming to do them harm or to spread a form of strict Catholicism around the world of the region. Again, not even close.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

zurcronium: There are Christian forces in Africa now murdering Muslims everyday. You will not find that on fox news but if you google it you will find the truth.

http://tinyurl.com/mhpdfus - Fox News search: "central african republic"

Showing results 1 - 10 of 818 for "central african republic" ...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/08/un-inquiry-finds-ethnic-cleansing-muslims-in-central-african-republic-but-no/

UN inquiry finds ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Central African Republic, but no genocide

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There are Christian forces in Africa now murdering Muslims everyday. You will not find that on fox news but if you google it you will find the truth.

Libs crack me up, seriously! Fox has absolutely nothing to do with what the radicals are doing and of course there was mention of the atrocities of what's going on in Africa on both sides of the religious, but it's for a different reason and different purpose. Both sides don't trust each other and the other believed one would eradicate the other. No excuses, very bad, but we are talking about something totally different. I do find it and call it genocide, but again, the Christians don't want to be slaughtered, they know the Muslims will slaughter them without blinking, so it's more like, we kill you before you kill us scenario.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Wow, so many replies. Where to start?

@Jimizo: I'm not even going to try. Too many Islam haters here. @Joe Bigs: Sorry, you don't know my answers. And I have never claimed that there is, or was, some 'grand conspiracy' against Islam. I never even suggested that. And no, I don't blame the west at all. In fact, I do think that there are things in the Islamic world, with the interpretation of the Quran, that have to be sorted out. That said, you needn't believe a word I am saying - I mean, you already think you know better, so that's that. Be happy. @Honestdictator: You wrote:

As you're a practicing Muslim you always seem to come from a point of view of blindly protecting Islam first from any criticism.

Huh? I was? All I was doing was stating that I do not acknowledge the followers of ISIS as muslims. You might be interested in another comment I made in another thread (Fighting Islamic State by military means is one thing, but how do you fight their ideology?, FEB. 03, 2015 - 08:18PM JST). Yup, blindly protecting Islam first from any criticism.

I don't think the extremists (and their supporters and financial backers) acknowledge you as a true muslim either from their perspective...

You are absolutely right here. I don't have a problem with that. The only being that would know if I am a Muslim or not is God, and that's all that matters. Someone said only the prophet would know, but no, even he wouldn't know.

Again, @Jimizo. Just thought I should address this, since you were the only one who seems genuinely non hostile.

It sounds like you are saying these people do terrible things, therefore, they can't be Muslims. Surely you can't be saying that?

That certainly is one of the reasons (although, I would say your sentence simplifies things a bit too much). I'm not going to write anymore on this. I see now why the Muslims I know just couldn't be bothered to argue anymore, here on JT.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I see now why the Muslims I know just couldn't be bothered to argue anymore, here on JT.

That's an excuse! many don't want to debate the issue, NOT for the reasons mostly you stated, but there are many that are afraid, look the other way, don't want to make their opinions public or are unwilling to hear facts about radical Islam, it just depends, I'm not trying to lump all Muslims as a monolithic group, but there is not enough being said, or them being outspoken and having a serious dialogue and solutions. The Muslim community needs to take the lead in this whether it's political or military and the the US and international community can supply, guide and give support, but the condemnation and the initiative has to come from first and fore mostly from the Islamic world.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I see now why the Muslims I know just couldn't be bothered to argue anymore, here on JT.

i don't see them either arguing too much on other sites.

arguing does not mean hating, it does mean something wrong need to be sorted out, and the best way to sort it out is through discussing it rationally, objectively, responding to unanswered questions, not hiding and then coming out with some kind of outrage..

it does mean many people really cares about the problem, if u are not going to argue, maybe it does mean u don't really care in what people in the middle east and other places are suffering for, day in day out.

i think maybe those who want to argue about the problem are more muslim than those who don't.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@souka

i think maybe those who want to argue about the problem are more muslim than those who don't.

I agree. Just don't argue with people who have already made up their minds.

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@Kikai Thank you for acknowledging that I'm not a Muslim-basher. I just think it's unproductive and dangerous to dismiss the extremists of a faith as not Muslims/Christians/Jews/Hindus etc. There are things in all faiths and scriptures which are incompatible with a 21st century worldview because these texts were written by men living in a very different moral climate. Extremists such as IS often seize upon verses which can very easily be interpreted as justifying terrible acts. Those verses are there and no amount of argument about what the text really meant to say cuts much ice given the violently schismatic nature of religions. This is the core problem and one which people of faith find it very difficult, if not impossible, to deal with head on. As long as these books are regarded as 'sacred' or the word of God, people such as IS can find ample justification for what they do. It goes back to the question I asked you. Who are you, I, or anyone else for that matter, to tell them their interpretation of a 'perfect' book is wrong?

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Kikai:

" @Jimizo: I'm not even going to try. Too many Islam haters here "

Lets get the terminology straight: Stating facts, even if they are inconvenient, is not "hate". Claiming so is cheap way to avoid discussion.

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As-salamu alaykum kikai

Once more I greet out of respect in peace and with well wishes unto you and yours....

With that being said, I must ask you a question that concerns me, you said and I quote:

I'm not going to write anymore on this. I see now why the Muslims I know just couldn't be bothered to argue anymore, here on JT.

Since that you have posted replies on various occasions, but it seems that you have avoided posting any replies to my most simple of questions.

I don't mean to insult you or bring any form of shame upon you, but why have you avoided my questions?

Yes, you stated that you wouldn't reply any more upon this subject, but less than two hours later you did the thing you said you would not do....

Please try harder.

kikaiFeb. 08, 2015 - 09:46AM JST I'm not going to write anymore on this.

So, I ask you again, I ask In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. the most Compassionate will you answer the questions I have asked you or will you continue to avoid them and stay silent?

Please, I ask you with an open hand and an open heart for you consider the questions I have asked. And please, again consider answering them.

I don't mean to insult you or your beliefs, hell religion is part of my families past. What I am asking, all I want is for you to try and explain your words with facts rather than with simple opinions.

During the Golden age of Islam men of great knowledge sat around and discussed their ideas and thoughts. I hope that Islam, the belief that brought the ancient world out of the dark ages doesn't force another great Dark Age because of radicals and people to frightened to face and fight against the radicals within Islam....

If it wasn't for Islam we would have lost many of the worlds great advances during the West's dark age. I just hope that Islam hasn't begun to enter into another dark age of it's own.

Islam, Christianity, Hindi, Buddhism and other religions are an integral part of many peoples lives. Some, like myself have no need for it, but we respect it.

When people are to frail to face off against the radicalism within their faiths their faiths begin to falter and create strife.

Right now Islam is going through one of those stages and many people within it's faith are living in denial and don't want to face the problem.

The longer people continue to deny the problem and continue to evade answering difficult questions, the more the rest of the world will grow to resent them.

Islam was a religion of honor, but today it seems to be one the buries it's head in the sand and hope no one sees them.

As-Salamu-Alaykum

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Kikai:

" The only being that would know if I am a Muslim or not is God, and that's all that matters. Someone said only the prophet would know, but no, even he wouldn't know. "

Huh? But earlier, you were adamant that ISIS are "not muslims", no matter what they call themselves. Can you explain your position? You say that only God can judge who is muslim, but at the same time you yourself make exactly that judgement.... are you putting yourself above God?

I am not splitting heirs, I am trying to understand your logic.

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Against my better judgement I watched the video released by ISIS of the Jordanian pilot being burned to death in a cage. I will have to take more than 1 sleeping pill to get any sleep tonite. These ISIS terrorist wackos need to be taken out.

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ISIS is a criminal gang. They thrive in the lawless wastes where no civilized power can address their crimes. As for the game saying back and forth about religion, religion for ISIS is a con job.

"Abu Mohammed al-Maqdesi, considered a spiritual mentor for many al-Qaida militants, said the killing of Lt Muath al-Kaseasbeh is “not acceptable in any religion.” - article

Those few who think the Koran is an assembly guide or cook book for the actions of ISIS have an axe to grind.

Their arguments are based on some vague idea that anyone who claims a religious motivation becomes that religion.

Comical and simple minded, the idea that Mohammad or Islam or Muslims are please to have women and children buried alive because a gangster band calling themselves ISIS claims religious inspiration knows only a shallow prejudice. It serves their purpose to sowing hatred for those they know nothing of.

Fascists are fascists whether they claim religion or other inspiration. Enough said, ISIS isn't Islam and will be destroyed because they themselves are nothing. Hiding behind religion their only intent is power and destruction to maintain control through fear to enrich their leaders; a common tactic in all criminal organizations. ISIS is no different.

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kcjapan:

" ISIS is a criminal gang. They thrive in the lawless wastes where no civilized power can address their crimes. As for the game saying back and forth about religion, religion for ISIS is a con job. "

This is the fundamental Western misunderstand and the reason why we our politicians are so hopelessly fumbling. ISIS is NOT a "criminal gang", they are a fundamental Wahabi Sunni islamist movement which has strong backing from the Sunni population in the ISIS triangle; if they had not, IS would have collapsed long ago.

And their land is not "lawless". They are applying literal, uncompromising. no-holds-barred Shariah law, which is why they they have so much backing from across the Sunni muslim world. And that is the reason that they keep attracting follower from various countries, including yours and mine.

As we speak, ISIS supporters have been handing out leaflets to Oxford Street shopper encouraging them to leave Britain for Syria and Iraq. They are not talking about a criminal gang, they are talking about the glorious establishment of the New Caliphate and quote Koran verses.

As long as we refuse to acknowledge reality and dream about things like a "criminal gang", we will keep losing.

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kcjapanFeb. 10, 2015 - 10:50AM JST ISIS is a criminal gang.

No they are not, they are a well organized and structured religious groups with a goal in mind.

You are underestimating them.

kcjapanFeb. 10, 2015 - 10:50AM JST They thrive in the lawless wastes where no civilized power can address their crimes.

No, in the area's they control they have imposed strict Sharia Law and enforce it with absolute authority. If the areas they controlled were lawless regions Iraq and Syria would have retaken them with easy.

But, they haven't because they aren't lawless. Remember, one of their goals is to impose Sharia Law throughout the world. If you keeping minimizing what they are doing, well then, start learning what you can and can't do under Sharia law.

kcjapanFeb. 10, 2015 - 10:50AM JST As for the game saying back and forth about religion, religion for ISIS is a con job.

There is no game, the CIA didn't create them, the US didn't, the UK didn't and the West didn't. ISIS and all other radical Islamic Jihadist groups were created by the orthodox within the religion.

If you can't those truths than that is on you.

They thrive in the lawless wastes where no civilized power can address their crimes. As for the game saying back and forth about religion, religion for ISIS is a con job.

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"ISIS is NOT a "criminal gang", - fundamental Wahabi Sunni islamist movement which has strong backing from the Sunni population - their goals is to impose Sharia Law throughout the world" - comments

Let's test these claims. Sunni Muslims want ISIS to behead, burn and bury children alive because this is their Islam vision of honoring Allah. Good luck with that. Maybe there is some source that backs up that claim? ISIS wants to control the world. Let's imagine that's true, the odds are strongly against it.

Handing out leaflets to Oxford Street shoppers encouraging them to leave Britain may seems pretty scary but chances of success? 100,000,000:1. So before the scary ISIS story can get traction the 20,000 crazy murderers, whom the world of sane people view as worst than a cancerous puss, are going to have to topple, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Turkey ect. ect. ect. Yeah, that's right, that'll happen.

Some will push the "fear Islam" or fear "Sunni Islam" threat to the world story but most haven't been further than a few miles from home their whole lives.

Without any supporting facts they claim the ISIS gangster's are out to topple the world. Comically, chicken littles who are really, really scared of a band of freaks that have no identity beyond the slaughter of women and children aren't going to take over anything.

ISIS already signed their own death warrant with burnings and beheadings. No one listens to them because they have nothing to offer anyone. If some wish to make ISIS their hero they won't have anyone who agrees with them and they sound crazy enough to avoid in any social gathering.

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Let's test these claims. Sunni Muslims want ISIS to behead, burn and bury children alive because this is their Islam vision of honoring Allah. Good luck with that. Maybe there is some source that backs up that claim? ISIS wants to control the world. Let's imagine that's true, the odds are strongly against it.

Another form of political euphemism. They want to impose Sharia law as far as they can from Africa to the Middle East to Europe and then finally America. So one would take from that, the Islamists don't want and are NOT interested in living side by side with Christians, Apostates, Jews and other people of religious faith.

No one listens to them because they have nothing to offer anyone. If some wish to make ISIS their hero they won't have anyone who agrees with them and they sound crazy enough to avoid in any social gathering.

Tell that to the thousands of foreign fighters that are fighting along side and are volunteering to join radical Islamists in their bloody Jihad.

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"Tell that to the thousands of foreign fighters that are fighting along side and are volunteering to join radical Islamists in their bloody Jihad." - comments

Chicken Little had the same problem. Everything made perfect sense until reality was granted admission to the theater of the mind. Let the reader investigate further; perhaps the unregulated internet pulls up some glimmer of reality to enlighten those who have fear; and fear itself is the real enemy, but enough of that, consult reality first.

"While foreigners from across the world have joined ISIS, some arrive in Iraq or Syria only to find day-to-day life much more austere and violent than they had expected. These disillusioned new recruits soon discover that it is a lot harder to leave than to join. Even if they escape, they are trapped in limbo, considered a threat by both their former comrades-in-arms and their homelands." - Lebanon Daily Star

reference: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2015/Feb-02/286023-the-cost-of-leaving-isis-death-or-jail.ashx

According to Chicken Little, the insane join, they die and then take over the world. Magical.

A ghost army, hated for their slaughters and the murderers of children, become some kind of imagined Islamic Hitlarian future Chicken Little sees so clearly. He heard it on the radio and a tv show.

Before ignoring the revulsion of millions of Muslims at the grotesque caricature ISIS makes of Islam, condemned in this article, do the numbers.

A band of mentally ill "fighters" are tortured by their own leaders and draws more eager recruits? Chicken Little at leaste had some evidence about the condition of the sky. The hysterical witless should try using the internet more frequently, factual analysis is available if the real nature and future of ISIS is of concern.

But, of course, reading is more difficult than listening to hatemongers on the radio. But, that is another topic not addressed in the article above, however, it may well play a role in recruitment to fantastical ideas of world domination by narrow minded simpletons. Listen and Repeat, like any mind blanking exercise, works wonders when there is little to interfere with it's dogma.

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