N Korea threatens 'war' if satellite is shot down

Shoot it down. They don't have permission from China to start any "war". It's all empty talk as usual.

China and North Korea both tougher STUPID. Both made such progress and both are going to throw it all away. This is like a Greek tragedy, you can see the fall coming but can not stop it!

likeitis: Might makes right, or so a caveman once told me.

The weaker party is never wrong, or so a member of the radical left once told me.

Yup. Let's see what they have to fight back there with there guy.

Might makes right, or so a caveman once told me.

So is firing the missile, if its in the direction of your country or your countries assets.

No Molenir, it isn't. There is no direction a missile can be pointed anywhere on the Earth without having a great potential of being pointed in such a direction. The only exception is straight up, but as soon as the missile starts coming back down, it is going to point at another country again.

Your definition has every country that ever fired a missile guilty of an act of war to at least one other country.

The North Koreans already are committing suicide.

Cutting off the caveat "by proxy", is neither clever nor helpful in your response to me.

it will retaliate against anyone seeking to block its planned satellite launch

NK needn't worry about retaliation for anything it does. Perhaps they don't realize that Obama is Commander-in-Chief of the US military forces.

Shooting down someones missle, whether it's a test missle or a satelite rocket is an act of war against any country isn't it?

Yup. Let's see what they have to fight back there with there guy.

I think Alpha is on to something. All we are doing by giving NK any aid is helping them divert budget from food to missiles and nukes. If NK has the money for rockets they should have plenty for food too. It's time to stop propping up the dear little warmonger. Talk is useless with this lot. They are only blackmailing people to keep themselves in power. Time to pull the plug.

likeitis: If the North Koreans wanted to commit suicide by proxy, they would have done it by now.

The North Koreans already are committing suicide. Just check out any news report that talks about life in their country. The question is whether or not they're going to take us with them.

smithinjapan: If you choose to see it as such, yes. Will it make NKorea go 180 on it's current threats? I don't believe 180, but I believe they'll slowly backtrack on some of the threats they're making instead of going forward as they have been, and thinks can go back to negotiation over the table instead of via threats of force.

I just don't see how giving in to a bully is going to make him less likely to be a bully in the future. If anything it just encourages their behavior by rewarding it. You'll also be encouraging other nations to take the same path if they see the payoff.

And North Korea has shown in the past that no matter what talk is going back and forth they end up doing what they want to do whether they smile at you or hurl threats. They smiled at Clinton while they secretly built nukes, and they blasted Bush while they openly built nukes. With both approaches the result was the same...they advanced their nuclear technology. The "he's bound to change at some point" doesn't won't work on North Korea anymore than it works on abusive husbands.

smithinjapan: Look, SuperLib, all the calls for people on this site to 'blast NK out of the water!' etc. have led to where things are now. Don't think I'm saying NK has no active part in the deterioration of relations, but it takes TWO to tango, and ever since the 'axis of evil' label and since Lee came in with a similar hard line as Bush had, things have clearly gotten much, much worse. That's fact.

Once again I see you're responding to my posts by referencing what others have said. Really, that has got to stop. Throwing "it takes two to tango" catchphrases at the situation isn't going to help, either. Bush showed progress with getting the North to dismantle some of their facilities long after the Axis of Evil speech that you constantly reference as if it was last week. He even took them off of the State Sponsor of Terrorism list. And Kim's position is simply to question giving free aid while North Korea refuses to soften their stance and give absolutely nothing in return. At some point someone was going to have to bring up that logical conclusion. Just because KJI "got mad" doesn't mean those two are responsible. He's an irrational human being.

kanadamanada: I hope you're right, my friend. I do. I won't be able to say 'I told you so' if you're not.

tclh: He won't really have much of a life to lose if he's about to die, and I think you overestimate how much the guy cares about his family. He might, genuinely so, but I tend to think that evil, selfish men such as himself really don't care about much other than themselves.

Shooting down someones missle, whether it's a test missle or a satelite rocket is an act of war against any country isn't it? What is someone a Japanese or US or Austrailian, Chinese or British missle?

So is firing the missile, if its in the direction of your country or your countries assets.

Who say's they have only one nuke?

Who is to say they have even one nuke?

Look, you really need to ditch some of your doomsday scenarios. You are going give yourself a bad heart...for nothing.

If the North Koreans wanted to commit suicide by proxy, they would have done it by now. No need to go lobbing nukes at America. None at all.

Frankly, I am more worried about America sparking a new war on the peninsula, as America has attacked more countries and been in involved in way more violent conflicts that NK since NK was born. Plus America has the capability to make good on its "warnings" to NK, no doubt in anybody's mind about that.

Shooting down someones missle, whether it's a test missle or a satelite rocket is an act of war against any country isn't it? What is someone a Japanese or US or Austrailian, Chinese or British missle?

I'm really getting tired of North Korea.

Tired of North Korea's attitude, not wanting to help their people, would rather waste the country's money on a satelite instead of feeding their own and this damn Korean War that we still have troops stationed there.

I also have seen the leaders of South Korea instigating crap.

Bring the troops home, let North and South Korea finish their war.

When they have beat the hell out of themselves, then force a reconciliation and the NEW KOREA, forged in their own blood. < :-)

Ummm

Other than that, maybe, just maybe a wave of walking skeletons so thick that it actually penetrates SK defenses...and despite the mountainous terrain.

Who say's they have only one nuke? Heck, fire a missle test to show you can deliver one all the way to the U.S.

Might be good for even more 'concessions' from progressives such as yourself and keep the elite in power there. Kim could care less about his walking skeletons. He's got nukes now, just like the Iranians would love to have to get their 'concessions' also.

US-Japan will show NK "who is the chicken?" Kim does have something to lose ,his luxury life and his family,even he doesn't care a sh*t about NK and its people. Japan will not say a word more but will shoot down NK missile if it moves toward Japan.

Except for South Korea.

Nice eye sail. Yeah, you spotted the only significant flaw in the post. But I think it is plenty ironed out by:

Well, Seoul doesn't stand a chance from the artillery

Other than that, maybe, just maybe a wave of walking skeletons so thick that it actually penetrates SK defenses...and despite the mountainous terrain.

There's no oik in North Korea.

Pure propaganda. NK is no threat to anyone.

Except for South Korea.

The left cheers.

If you read one other post in this thread, make it this one:

kanadamanada at 09:01 PM JST - 9th March

Oh man, the rhetoric flies thick and pasty tonight, doesn't it?Smithinjapan, are you doing consulting work for SDF and can you tell me exactly how would NK annhilate Japan's major centres? Whith what, exactly? Oh, riiight, with all those missiles that the West needs to spend so much money on defending itself from. Well, Seoul doesn't stand a chance from the artillery, but the war ends there. That's SK's problem for locating its capitol within artillery range of its greatest enemy. NK has nothing with which to threaten us in Japan and to think otherwise is to subscribe to the same neo-con bombast that has the world in the state it's in, a state of perpetual war driven by the industries it supports. The SCUD missile derived TD2 has never had a successful test and what's more important, has about a 400Kg payload towards the limit of its range, which is not enough to carry the crude atomic warhead NK potentially has, even to Tokyo. I'm in Sapporo, so maybe I ought to get some Potassium Iodide pills, but the rest of you, sleep easy, please. What's more is no NK missile has a sophisticated guidance system above the inertial guidance types we saw back when we were in highschool watching Saddam's SCUDs blow up on their own over Kuwait and Saudi, missing cities and COUNTRIES altogether, at times, landing in the Gulf. With only one launch site, and a multi-day prelaunch, how exactly would they orchestrate this attack against Japan? Pure propaganda. NK is no threat to anyone.

If I were in charge of the US Govt, I would simply just tell nK, if you want to shoot a satellite into space, go right ahead. Obiviously since you have enough money to spend on space R&D, the food and fuel crisis has been stopped in your country and we will no longer be sending aid your way. This would not mean that an embargo is in effect, and other nations can continue to send all the assistance that they want. But if they are advanced enough to do this, then they should be able to apply sound science to their agricultural problems and come up with a solution.

I would still let them know, we are bound by treaty obligations to defend South Korea and Japan if attacked and will do so. But if they don't want to abide by the agreements decided upon with their own parties participating, then that is their perogative and they may choose to do so.

It seems that a "no-nonsense" approach to nK has been missing from Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II. Hell, if Obama can say that we are willing to sit down and talk to the Taliban in Afgh. or ask Iran to help out in that area or maybe open business and travel to Cuba, why not just simply tell nK to either play fair with the rest of the world or we will not help them out.

They have more to gain than the US has to loose.

SuperLib: "is that another word for appeasement?"

If you choose to see it as such, yes. Will it make NKorea go 180 on it's current threats? I don't believe 180, but I believe they'll slowly backtrack on some of the threats they're making instead of going forward as they have been, and thinks can go back to negotiation over the table instead of via threats of force.

Look, SuperLib, all the calls for people on this site to 'blast NK out of the water!' etc. have led to where things are now. Don't think I'm saying NK has no active part in the deterioration of relations, but it takes TWO to tango, and ever since the 'axis of evil' label and since Lee came in with a similar hard line as Bush had, things have clearly gotten much, much worse. That's fact.

skipthesong: "Do any of you think once Kim is gone, we'll see the same problems we have in Iraq or do you think it would go over smoother?"

It depends entirely on who takes over, and how much they are actually on their own or being manipulated by the old-school die-hard generals. The dangerous point is BEFORE Kim goes, when he's on his death-bed... People like Kim often want to take things with them for the ride when they go, and he's getting on in years and health, and things are at a flash-point. It's also the point where generals could seize power and start the fight they've been waiting more than 50 years for. I would like to think, though, that it would usher in an era more open to getting back together with the South. I just hope we all get a chance to see.

Ossan: "Capitulate? What a joke."

What do you think capitulate means, my friend? Taking a slightly less bombastic tone and willing to resume promised aid (despite NK not living up to their end) is a form of capitulating to their demands. The 'joke' is people like you coming on here and saying no one should 'care' about people like Kim Jong-Il -- in other words, the kind of attitude that has helped things get to where they are now.

"Let them collapse the world doesn't need them. NKorea can not and will not start a war because China will not let them. End of story."

How dense can one person get? If it were just a matter of the state collapsing and then SKorea accepting them and the world joining hands, EVERYONE would think this the best way... hell... Kim would have given up long ago. But the fact of the matter is, as I said, they could very well wish to take most of South Korea down with them in a ball of flames, and annihilate Japan's major urban centres, not to mention the US would lose a good deal of it's Pacific strongholds. Of course, NKorea would be annihilated, but the leaders aren't going to care if they're backed against a wall and dying anyway. As for the 'China won't let them' line, while I know they will listen to China longer than anyone else, they're still not going to care what China says if they want to go out in style. 'End of story'.

You really need to pull your head out of the sand (as SuperLib says) and at least consider the consequences of the gamble you're willing to take on everyone's behalf.

All this bellicose rhetoric by NK is really just their backup plan in case they have another launch failure.

The Norks, by this point, look at the moral equivalency and moral inversion wrought by the 40 plus years of turbid, post-modernist sludge that besmirches the body politic in each of the democracies of the West and they correctly perceive large swaths of the population now almost wholly indifferent to liberty, ignorant of its precious import, and even contemptuous of its guardians. The Stalinists in Pyongyang undoubtedly count on the presence of enough bend-overs on the far Left to allow them any course of action, no matter how duplicitous.

Unfortunately, the NKorea is as childish as ever, and dealing with them >successfully is going to involve capitulation first and foremost by >SKorea and the US (Japan is a non-issue) on certain things.

Capitulate? What a joke.

After that, >NKorea can begin to back down a little and save face -- >which is mostly >what this is about. Further sanctions, talk of war, >etc. etc. have >clearly done nothing but exacerbate the issue.

Face? Who cares about NKorea's "face"? They are beggars who don't know how to "ask politely" for help. Instead they threaten. Let them collapse the world doesn't need them. NKorea can not and will not start a war because China will not let them. End of story.

likeitis: That is one assumption.

Keep your head in the sand. You'll sleep better at night.

smith: Unfortunately, the NKorea is as childish as ever, and dealing with them successfully is going to involve capitulation first and foremost by SKorea and the US

Is that another word for appeasement?

And then once North Korea profits from their behavior, they're going to suddenly change course and take a completely different approach?

Possible? Sure, in the sense that anything is possible. Probable? No.

frontandcentre: the threat from North Korea against airliners is an implied one.

That is one assumption.

well, they tested missiles before

And that makes two. And one is build on the other no less.

and never warned about a threat to civil aviation then...

You know, it is just possible the North Koreans are actually attempting to launch a satellite just like they say.

It is also possible that are going to test a missile, but this time, unlike the other times, it WILL be a danger to aircraft.

Please bear in mind, they don't have the luxury of White Sands or the Bikini Atoll to conduct tests, unlike some countries.

I do not want NK testing missiles either. But that is a feeling that people are allowing to cloud their logic skills. Fact is NK has a right to test missiles. They are a sovereign nation.

likeitis: the threat from North Korea against airliners is an implied one. You are smart enough to work out what saying that they "cannot guarantee the safety" of air traffic means. If the reason was a missile test - well, they tested missiles before, didn't they, and never warned about a threat to civil aviation then...

Do any of you think once Kim is gone, we'll see the same problems we have in Iraq or do you think it would go over smoother?

If the 6way talks cannot function as a vehicle to de-escalate these types of tensions, then we have reached the limit of what diplomacy can achieve. Both sides just are not ready to come to some accommodation to end the situation. The options are: a)to station a neutral party on the DMZ; b) initiate international arbitration where the negotiator is agreeable to both parties; c) let the situation play out, but quite aware a miscalculation could trigger an actual conflict. Anyone who has studied this, knows that this is a flashpoint and the geography and political dynamics does create an intractable problem. I am too far from the actual situation to see if any solutions are apparent.

I say that no one should shoot it down. Blast it before the launch!

NK's don't take it as sabotage" good question.

I hope that when the thing blows up before,during or after launch, the NK's don't take it as sabotage or a shooting down of their toy.

frontandcentre: and then threaten to shoot down airliners full of innocent civilians

Only NK did not do that. Don't believe me? Quote them. And good luck with that.

Not seeing a quote myself, I saw what I surmised to be a wildly exaggerated news report.

Now think for a second. Why suddenly start threating such a thing? Of all times why now? Obviously, it has something to do with the missile test. In fact, going through the previous article, it appears that all NK did was warn that the areas around their airspace will be dangerous and they cannot guarantee security for airliners. Prudent, considering that NK missiles are not exactly what you would call reliable.

So why get all miffed about it?

It's a joke to even think the U.S. capable of shooting down this missile. All of the missile defence shield tests over the last number of years involved shooting down missiles on pre-determined courses with homing beacons attached. Lockheed puts on a good show for the media. I wonder how much money Lockheed will pay to KJI in his Swiss bank account for this. Lockheed is the only winner in this. Lockheed's value makes it the world's 25th biggest economy. Does anyone believe they are not stoking this fire in the interest of the missile shield they want to put in Europe? The media associating Iran's and NK's missile programs prove this theory. NK's business is the threat of missiles, real or imagined - either one will do for Lockheed.

This is a non-issue. Besides that, Japan and the U.S. both test-fire various missiles all the time.

Nobody is gonna fight a war in NK. There are simply no commodities there and China would get all the reconstruction contracts, anyway. China is NK's patron and China's most valuable trading partners are Japan and the U.S. To attack either would destabilize China's economy. I can't see either scenario playing out.

NK's "missile" is launched from a permanent test bed and has to be wheeled out into the daylight for days to fuel... REALLY DANGEROUS, that.

The U.S. should shoot down the missile (satellite?~ who's stupid to believe that)for security reason. The N.Korea gangs would not do anything such as invading the South,for they know they will be wiped out from their privileges. They might pull a small scale stunt as usual. It is time to let them feel the heat a little. Go Freedom and Human dignity....

U.S. and Japanese officials have suggested they could shoot down a North Korean missile if necessary.

Where are those US drones? Maybe its time to threaten Kim with a little more than just shooting down his toy missiles. If you launch a missile Kim, one might be coming right back at you with your name on it.

Only the deluded pygmies in charge of North Korea could have enough stupidity to "demand" aid be sent on the one hand and then threaten to shoot down airliners full of innocent civilians if a few defence exercises take place. There really is very little reasoning with such people - and the irony is that by their actions, their paranoia about being threatened becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I think it's high time that they were reminded, though diplomatic channels, of the probable consequences if they take hostile action against South Korea

Boy that "just ignore Kim's rants" stance that a number of people have taken just isn't working out, now is it?

Unfortunately, the NKorea is as childish as ever, and dealing with them successfully is going to involve capitulation first and foremost by SKorea and the US (Japan is a non-issue) on certain things. After that, NKorea can begin to back down a little and save face -- which is mostly what this is about. Further sanctions, talk of war, etc. etc. have clearly done nothing but exacerbate the issue.