Neither side budging in Wisconsin union fight

"That’s where we’re at. There is no negotiation.” (says a Republican)

This is why the lovers of democracy in Wisconsin must never, ever trade away their rights to collective bargaining.

Solidarity!

Another compromise offered by Republican Sen Dale Schultz would remove collective bargaining rights just for two years

Yeah, and the same kinds of Republicans promised that the Bush tax cuts would expire in ten years when they sold the bill to get around Pay-Go.

They lied then and they're lying now.

It's obvious the people are being penalized for government failure on both ends. Sad. They should leave the union, that being the United States, before they end up like Michigan.

President Barack Obama and other Democrats will need the strong support of unions in the 2012 elections

Myth. Obama and the Democrats get their money from the same places that Republicans do. Wall Street and other corporations pay their bribes, oops, I meant "campaign contributions", to both parties, and don't care which one wins, except maybe the ideological nut-jobs like the Koch brothers. Unions support the Democrats because unions always have, and they happily will accept the money, but they get nothing for it.

Don't give in to the Republican fascists who want to up how much you pay and deny your right to have a say against it. I wonder if they've proposed pay cuts and hikes in benefit payments for themselves? Anyway, this shut down shows the obstinate nature and absolute greed of the Republicans, and is absolutely why the unions cannot back down and Democrats allow them to give up bargaining rights. Look what they're fighting against! a man who says, "There is no negotiation!"

He attended Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin from 1986 to 1990.[8] During his sophomore year, he ran unsuccessfully for president of the student government, promising to solve the school's economic problems. The Marquette Tribune, the student newspaper, did not endorse Walker due to admitted violations of campaigning guidelines.[9][10] During his four years at Marquette, he earned 94 credits with a grade point average in the C's, but he did not complete his degree.[11] Walker explained his reasons in a 2010 interview: "'In the end, I figured I was in school to get a good job,' he said. 'So once I had one, family became more important than getting a degree.'"[4]

I pulled this information about Gov Scott Walker. I have never hired anyone who could not accomplish goals. There is always something missing in their characters. I only accept execuses of their failure due to health issue. What will happen if someone quit in a middle of combat?

Loving the drama in Wisconsin getting as much attention on JT as the Middle East protests.

Every other day another GB Packers player weighs in to support the unions. No surprise, the players belong to unions and are gearing up for a walkout themselves. Before laughing at millionaires on strike, remember that many Packers players have college degrees, unlike our new Gov. Walker who dropped out of Marquette to be a salesman for IBM. Hey, it was the 80s...

Anybody know some background about what made Ronald Reagan, the only labor union president to become U.S. president, turn against unions? Preferably someone who remembers that history first hand?

How anyone voted for this loser is beyond me. 94 credits with C average?

I earned my degree while I was working full time for a major US corporation and supported my wife (not working) with 2 kids. I always worked on every weekend for second job. We ate a lots of Ramen and Mac&Cheese for dinner.

This excuse is not acceptable. He has no spine and does not know how to become a man.

Anybody know some background about what made Ronald Reagan, the only labor union president to become U.S. president, turn against unions?

All part of the big picture. Unions had to be busted to stop wage-price inflation, which had to be done because "Reaganomics" was about nothing more than increasing the debt and the money supply to counter the oil price shock. By making unions weaker then the inflation didn't go into wages, it went into assets. Same reason the USA shipped its manufacturing off to China, to keep prices down. Basic American neo-liberal idiocy, or you might know it by its code name "the free market", and where all of today's problems started.

"Reaganomics" was about nothing more than increasing the debt and the money supply .....

I am having trouble understanding your posting here, GJDaileult.

GJDailleult, the union is willing to compromise to accept everything what Gov Walker proposed EXCEPT the right of collective bargain.

Please separate a public sector from a private sector in economics and the labor law in global economy. Thank you.

What do you mean "it went into assets?" This is the time American really enjoyed appreciation of asset.

I earned my degree while I was working full time for a major US corporation and supported my wife (not working) with 2 kids. I always worked on every weekend for second job. We ate a lots of Ramen and Mac&Cheese for dinner. This excuse is not acceptable. He has no spine and does not know how to become a man." Well, we commend you and I'm sure it was difficult. I didn't bother finishing a nursing degree because I realized I didn't want to. I'm nothing more than a certified dental tech. and aside from working part time, never really worked the job. Every job since has been completely out of that scope. My brother and I and several others started a decent company in 2002 and let me tell you, some of the best sales guys I have didn't finish college and the guys working for us who did sadly it seems to have been a waste of money and time. While never taking a study, I'm sure we've fired more college grads than those who weren't. As for the gov not finishing college, well, you must have an issue with Bill Gates, Mike Dell, Larry Elison, and the list goes on and on but can you tell me Obama's GPA? Nope. Its sealed. You want to support the unions fine, go there and open up a business and hire union people only. If you let the unions win their hypocritical battle (yes, its ironic that unions supported Obama care, then get a waiver, then don't want to pay "normal" like everyone else) then you can say good bye to having any new business of mid size entering or starting up in Wis. BTW, I noticed on Spanish blogs and in the footage the absence of Latinos. Why? Because most of us are from two job households who need have to stay home because the kids can't go to school and most can't afford baby sitters (most of the baby sitter age is being forced to march) all for 50-80k a year teachers who have brought the state a ranking of 25th in the union in education and who don't want to pay normal to their OWN benefits.

Worker's rights have been eroding for years. Just about the only leverage they have is collective bargaining which evens the playing field with corporations and government. Why does this "tough guy" governor want to take away their right to negotiate? What is he afraid of?

Thank you for your posting, skipthesong. I guess you and I have a different view and experience in HR issue here.

There are many successful US CEOs who did not complete the college. I have a high respect for all of these CEOs with great ideas you have just mentioned. But they are all in private sector, if the products have a value to consumers, then consumers make a choice to buy them. Their objective is to make a profit. If their products fail,then their business fail and no harm to the public.

In the other hand, the public sector's main objective is to SERVE (not for profit) for the best interest in public infrastractures. That's the reason, the 14th amendment to the US constitution (right to collective bargain) comes in to play in Wisconsin dispute. Due to lack of critical thinking skill, Gov. Walker is trying to strip the core value of democracy.

I have been so troubled there has been many negative public views for the union just to get a job back from overseas.

Are we willing to sacrifice ourselves to work like Chinese? These Chinese workers have NO rights of collective bargain for their safty and wages. If your answer is yes, then I have no problem to accept your point of view here.

In my humble opinion,the union is not only one to be blamed, instead, we should shift the focus onto INNOVATION and EDUCATION, and effective US economic monetary and fiscal policies. Let's hope we are not going to work like Chinese. Thank you for listening.

paulinusa - Why does this "tough guy" governor want to take away their right to negotiate? What is he afraid of?

Probably because the taxpaying voters of Wisconsin just kicked out many of their tax-hike-crazy "former" elected representatives 4 months ago and they expect their current elected representatives to reduce the deficit. The teachers union only represents a small portion of the Wisconsin voters. The majority of the Wisconsin voters are pressuring the Govenor and legislature to ignore the demands of the government unions.

Exit polls say the election was about 4 letters: JOBS.

Keep going on the "we were elected to cut spending bit" though. I'm enjoying it watching the fallout :)

1)Obama's GPA? Nope. Its sealed.....

I believe he did not have 2.0-2.5 GPA C average to become a constitution law professor. The selection process is very competitive and tough. And all GPA are sealed just like your medical record.

2) most of the baby sitter age is being forced to march..........??

Many kids decided to join mothers and teachers at their WILL. Some mothers are with the Gov. Walker while their kids are with teachers. This only happends in America, a great country.

This is the great opportunity to teach our children how the democracy works in real life. Let's teach them how to compromise; giving up a little to gain more in process. Let's teach them what is a true meaning of Liberty and Justice for all. Let's start sharing a positive attitude to grow up together with our kids; teaching you and teaching me.

Let's make sure we work together to make this country better as our kids imagine, so that they will be able to continue to live in hope, dream in future. These kids someday may become our leaders. This is not a republican issue, and this is not a democrat issue. This is an issue for all Americans. Thank you.

But they are all in private sector, if the products have a value to consumers, then consumers make a choice to buy them. Their objective is to make a profit. If their products fail,then their business fail and no harm to the public." Well, that's where I get hyped. I can understand workers for a large corp unionizing, but I can not bring myself to understand why public sector people need to be unionized for the most part... can you imagine if they unionized US Embassy or those GS workers over here? And when a group of workers unionize, I feel they are taking a lot more than just righting a wrong, they are going full force in getting everything including the kitchen sink but AT OUR EXPENSE...

Due to lack of critical thinking skill, Gov. Walker is trying to strip the core value of democracy." Than you must have issue with states that don't have unions.. Just think if AT&T wasn't broken up when it was.. we'd still probably using a dial on our phones.

I have been so troubled there has been many negative public views for the union just to get a job back from overseas." You've gotta admit, unions have been a big part of the reason companies have put factories overseas. heck, even GM is putting plants down in Mexico to escape the UAW. I know that's not how they've spun it though which is why you need to read the Spanish blogs/news

In my humble opinion,the union is not only one to be blamed, instead, we should shift the focus onto INNOVATION and EDUCATION, and effective US economic monetary and fiscal policies. Let's hope we are not going to work like Chinese. Thank you for listening." I would rather pay a good teacher a better salary than getting stuck with bad teachers, which Wis has if you look at the rankings and I do blame much of that on unions. You just can't fire a bad teacher. If you want innovation, let the private sector bring it about. As I live over here, I've decided that I'm sending my kids to ASIJ as soon as they are of age because I know I can complain loud enough there and have a teacher removed. have you seen "Waiting for Superman"? Watch it and you tell me if you feel good about unionized education.

1)Obama's GPA? Nope. Its sealed..... I believe he did not have 2.0-2.5 GPA C average to become a constitution law professor. The selection process is very competitive and tough." Not saying that, but as a prez, why is it sealed?

And all GPA are sealed just like your medical record." That I didn't know but why do we get know other politicians as gj posted? 2) most of the baby sitter age is being forced to march..........?? Many kids decided to join mothers and teachers at their WILL. Some mothers are with the Gov. Walker while their kids are with teachers." Do you have facts to back that up?

This only happends in America, a great country. This is the great opportunity to teach our children how the democracy works in real life." You mean holding up signs with cross hairs, dipicting an elected official as Hitler, and one very offensive to me, bring back Che? Great way to teach. Let's teach them how to compromise; giving up a little to gain more in process." Or one could say how to get more than what your worth. Let's teach them what is a true meaning of Liberty and Justice for all." You're not referring to those American Socialist Organization are you? Because they were clear one what is liberty and justice for all and they had a large crowd there

This is not a republican issue, and this is not a democrat issue. This is an issue for all Americans." Yeah, that's what I'm saying. When the cow can't give milk, don't milk it. But as far as it not being a dem repub issue, you need to tell that to the other resident posters.

skipthesong, I did not make it very clear that the 14th Amend. applies to the Public Employees, not extended military and private sector. I am not in a position to tell you if that includes Embassy or GS employees. It is a very good question though. This case may appealed to all the way to the supreme court of US eventually.

The difference between Public sector to Private sector. Public sector's object is to SERVE, and Private sector to make a profit.

The union has nothing to do with ATT break up. It was decided under Anti Trust Law to increase competition in the market.

Dealing with bad teachers have nothing to do with Micro/Macro Economics to reach the Technical Efficiency in the Economic curve.

Our GPA is sealed as well as our medical record unless you are giving permission to open it. No presidents open the medical record including their blood pressure.

Yes, I was actually watching mother speaking on TV interview today, she is with Gov. and her kids are with teachers.

In the negotiation of law, what you have said is true too. One could say how to get more than what your worth, but at the same time one has to learn to give up a little to gain more; to compromise.

What's a socialism? What is a capitalism? Please define. I hope you are not telling me that all teachers, firefighters, policemen need to be on private companies payroll, are you?

I may add some of foreign auto makers are strategically selecting non union states to set up manufacturing sites in the US. They have been trying to improve a labor/management conflict by implementing a brain storming weekly meeting, Kanban system, open door policy and etc. They are changing an old management style of Top Down to a new Down Top management style. I can go on many more.....

GW: I was referring to this: spwiDOTorg

My point on AT&T was that the union was doing its best not to have a break up.. I have a bit of personal on this. If AT&T were not broken up, I'm sure you could imagine things being different.

Ok, so you taught me that my GPA average is sealed. Fine, didn't know that for elected officials. I do disagree with it though.

I can see we are not going to find any common ground. I would like unions to NOT have so much power while serving the public. Such power had lead to many bad tactics on their part like not plowing city streets, not picking up garbage in the middle of the summer, etc.. I'm 50/50 about them with them in the private sector.

I noticed one of the items currently on the wi legislative agenda is tax breaks for farmers :)

The Nov. elections put many republicans in control of state governments because the American taxpayer/worker/voter realized the over-the-cliff spending the democrats were doing was hurting the economy and the country.

The republican governors of these states are just doing the job they promised to do if they were elected. They were. They are.

RR

Gallup finds the majority of Americans side with Gov walker against the public sector unions , the SEIU thugs ,the rent-a-protester crowds and President Obama.

" Our GPA is sealed as well as our medical record unless you are giving permission to open it. No presidents open the medical record including their blood pressure...What's a socialism? What is a capitalism? "

I'm sorry but I refuse to believe "global watcher" got a degree from an American university.

I may add some of foreign auto makers are strategically selecting non union states to set up manufacturing sites in the US

Gee...Maybe because its cheaper on labor cost and they actually employ a skilled labor force that is invested in the company that can compete and make a profit....Or should Toyota set up a plant in Michigan pay UAW wages and pensions and then wonder why the company goes bankrupt. No worries though they could just set back and get a bailout from the Feds. Seems thats the "To big to Fail" stuff and put the taxpayer on the pad again..........By the why got your order in for the 40,000 dollar eco friendly Chevy Volt yet?

"powerful public employee unions"

These need to be reigned in. Public employees get their income courtesy of the taxpayers. If they want more, they can go work for private companies.

I believe he did not have 2.0-2.5 GPA C average to become a constitution law professor. The selection process is very competitive and tough.

Also, you don't get to become the head of the Harvard Law Review with poor grades.

This is the great opportunity to teach our children how the democracy works in real life.

Absolutely! Their middle-class future depends upon it. Otherwise, they will end up either knowing predominantly brutal, corrupt, authoritarian organizations, or -- the Republicans' dream -- being authoritarians themselves.

The main reasons why companies locate in the south have more to do with massive tax breaks than with unions.

Michigan offers pleanty of tax breaks, the state is practically begging businesses to open up shop here. We have a highly skilled labor force and the average worker is willing to accept lower wages than most of the country, but the unions are so pervasive. It would be like finding the perfect home only to discover there's a bum that lives in the basement that eats your food and sleeps in your bed, house is still nice but that bum is a dealbreaker.

Ford and GM are far from bankrupt. They've been highly profitable companies for years.

Their ratio's and margins had sucked since the late 90's and for years Ford and GM were selling vehicals at a LOSS to cover fixed expenses. Meanwhile the UAW kept at it by going for larger pensions, higher wages, more benefits, and with the car companies on the brink a strike would have been a deathblow. There's not a drop of sympathy left for the unions in Detroit, you want to complain about how some people are willing to make several dozen times over what the average person makes? Explain to my why UAW workers were making so much while their company's were failing, while the Michigan job market was collapsing, and the state had headed into recession years before it hit the rest of the country?

Ordinarily I'd say good for them, they displayed the kind of greed that I find lacking in today's society. But they were short sighted and now they're paying for it with jobs and benefits.

Another native Detroiter trying to nail it all the UAW. That would make it all so easy, wouldn't it? Nothing about management strategy, design quality, government mandated emmission standards? Yep, it was all the UAW's fault. Nobody else did anything wrong....

"Reaganomics" was about nothing more than increasing the debt and the money supply .....I am having trouble understanding your posting here, GJDaileult.

globalwatcher, is it quite simple. The trend of ever-increasing US government debt started with the Reagan administration and has never stopped. The charts don't lie. When you increase debt you increase the real money supply hugely because this government spent money gets put into the banks and allows the banking system to make many more loans. Problem is this will lead to price inflation. Thing is there are two kinds of price inflation, one is for stuff you need to buy and consume (makes people angry), the other for stuff that you can buy and sell later (makes them happy). Trick is where the inflation goes. By breaking the unions after creating a recession through high interest rates (hey I need a job!) they made the inflation not go into wages but into assets like houses and stocks. A neat trick until it blows up, which is inevitable, but until then everybody says "hey things are great".

The Nov. elections put many republicans in control of state governments because the American taxpayer/worker/voter realized the over-the-cliff spending the democrats were doing was hurting the economy and the country.

And Americans also realized that Harry Potter is a very good wizard. Fantasy is not going to save anybody. Like I said the charts don't lie. If I was a Republican (or Democratic) strategist, I would be very worried right now. "Right wing" parties in all countries have been selling aspirational political messages for 30 years, and the "left-wing" ones have been saying..., well I don't know what they have been saying other than let's copy what they have been doing. When Joe Blow wakes up and says "hey I am not on the team I thought I was on!!!", then Beck gets turned off and the Che shirts come out. And nobody will think they have been hypocrites or flip-floppers, they will all think they have now figured things out. Game is changing very quickly.

I'm sorry but I refuse to believe "global watcher" got a degree from an American university.

Pal, I DO HAVE degrees. Sorry to disappoint you. Your comments above is missing reasoning thus it is void in college papaers. Maybe you never learned it while you were in college or perhaps your degree is in art. Introduction statement--Reasoning--Conclusion is a basic rule, pal.

I can tell you this. Your performance record with previous employment is sealed while your employment verification is not. Your performance record (GPA) is sealed while your degree record (graduated or not)is open. Your medical record is sealed unless you are willing to give permission to do so. It is called a "Privacy Act", pal, I guess you are not living in USA, and you are not American.

Understood, GJDaileult. Thank you for your full explanation on these matters. I am worrying about Debt/GDP ratio in USA as well as you do.

Myth. Obama and the Democrats get their money from the same places that Republicans do. Wall Street and other corporations pay their bribes, oops, I meant "campaign contributions", to both parties, and don't care which one wins.......

This is absolutely true, GJDaileul. Public has no idea how politics works. The big money (a big contribution from business) usually comes in at the end of race.

Public employees get their income courtesy of the taxpayers.........

The word "COURTESY" caught my attention, Sarge. What would be like to have a privatized policemen, firefighters and teachers.

We: "Hello, my house is starting a fire, and I need your help!"

Emergency dispatcher: "Well, sir, let me tell you that you are behind in payment. we cannot help you until everything is paid up!"

Click and hung up. Scary isn't it?

My state public employees (right to work and/or work at WILL) agreed to contribute more to the PERA pension plan a years ago without raising tax money.

For the conclusion,what I am saying here is this:

Economics and Law go hand in hand. Capitalism and Democracy go hand in hand. I hope many bloggers here understand my intention playing as a devil's advocate position of view.

Many books have been published on this topic and it is worth reading them.

Another native Detroiter trying to nail it all the UAW.

Not all of it, but we got to watch as the UAW grabbed for everything it could while the city collapsed. That disreguard for the rest of us in Detroit is what pisses us off. They kept asking for more and more even as the rest of us made due with less. My company was struggling so when the told me my salary was being reduced I accepted it because I had been working with the company statments and understood the situation. Meanwhile everybody knew the dire situation the big 3 were in but the UAW carried on like nothing was wrong. That negligence, that ignorance, that level of short sighted money grabbing is what we hate about the UAW.

turned off and the Che shirts come out.

Always loved those, selling Che shirts for a profit makes me all warm and happy inside. If only I could tell him that his image has been making corporations money for years as they use cheap, underpaid, overworked, hopless workers in poor countries to stamp his face on shirts to be worn by trust-fund babies and self-styled revolutionaries that wear old clothes and pretend they're going against the system. The butcher of La Cabaña would throw a fit, does my heart good.

That disreguard for the rest of us in Detroit is what pisses us off. They kept asking for more and more even as the rest of us made due with less.

How come when that case is brought up against executive salaries or tax cuts heavily skewed towards the top income brackets, the charge levied is "class warfare?"

By the way, top management definitely wasn't making due with less. There's more than one example of a company that wrested deep pay and benefit cuts from its union members only to reward their executives with higher bonuses within the year.

How come when that case is brought up against executive salaries or tax cuts heavily skewed towards the top income brackets, the charge levied is "class warfare?"

How come I'm only allowed to dislike one group?

By the way, top management definitely wasn't making due with less. There's more than one example of a company that wrested deep pay and benefit cuts from its union members only to reward their executives with higher bonuses within the year.

And if left unattended they would have failed taking their overpaid upper management, the executives, and the unions down with them. With that kind of massive collapse the city and the rest of the state would have to either do some major innovation or finally die off, either way the end result would be better than what we have now. A slow painful processs of watching it circle the drain, its almost cruel.

I still have a conceptual problem with government employees unionizing and going on strike.

They are employed by the government, i.e. by the people in a democracy. They are payed by the government, i.e. by people`s taxes.

And then they go on strike to demand more from the rest of the population? It is not like they are striking against a capitalist who makes profit (which is conceptual basis of a worker`s union).

Next, should parliament members also go on strike to demand more pay??

Q, I was keeping tabs the whole time the big 3 were struggling through the aughts and the UAW offered concession after concession to help out. Still where are they now? Nowhere near what they were before the crisis. Where are the big 3 now? Back to big profits. Ron gettlefinger will probably go down as the worst UAW president ever.

I did notice Wisconsin can afford tax breaks for farmers. As that bill passed easily...

Democrats in WI will need to show up for work to pick up their paychecks and expenses reimbursement. :-D

I did notice Wisconsin can afford tax breaks for farmers. As that bill passed easily..." And they should. All taxes should be cut.

Certainly you wouldn't want the military to unionize and call a strike would you? Why should we allow public employees to strike at will? State and Fed employees already make more than private sector, they have more job security, they have more benefits, and still they turn around and demand more. The cows in Wis just can't give out the milk and getting that one or two fat cow (the larger businesses) to give out just ain't gonna cut it. I've taken salary cuts, have cut my own salary, and even went a while without getting any money to make the company work. These people could at the very least just simply fessed up to pay into their own bennies and for the collective bargaining, just because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it every time. Too many unions have abused this "right".

Well at least that's conceding the point is not what Wisconsin can afford, since Wisconsin clearly cant afford tax breaks. It is ideological. Thanks!

Wisconsin clearly cant afford tax breaks." So when public sector unions want more, just raise taxes? And when you want to bring business into the state, just tell those businesses to suck it up?

You could just borrow more, couldn't you? That is the GOP way :0

Well, simple math: two ways to balance the budget: more money in or less money out. You say the state is broke so must cut, but then you want to make it more broke by bringing less money in... Screwy logic.. Perhaps the state isn't really broke ;)

You saw the poll right: what is the #1 us problem: jobs/47%, deficits/7%....

WilliB: "And then they go on strike to demand more from the rest of the population? It is not like they are striking against a capitalist who makes profit (which is conceptual basis of a worker`s union)."

What unions are asking for more here? They have already stated they were willing to PAY more (ie. not GET more), but what they are against is giving up the right to collective bargaining.

You could just borrow more, couldn't you? That is the GOP way :0" don't know why you direct that to me, I've never voted repub yet. Have rooted for a few recently though, but I'm no longer a Fla. resident.

"more money in or less money out." That's the idea of bringing in more business. " You say the state is broke so must cut, but then you want to make it more broke by bringing less money in... Screwy logic.." Are you going to move into a neighborhood whose property tax is high or low? Why would you open a business in a state that cost more than the next one over yet get the same demographics? Perhaps the state isn't really broke ;)" Perhaps the teachers aren't that bad off ;)

speaking of teachers, have you seen "Waiting for Superman"? Watch it!

Maybe we should make a US version of Hello Works.

What unions are asking for more here? They have already stated they were willing to PAY more (ie. not GET more), but what they are against is giving up the right to collective bargaining.

Wrong. Unions are fighting for a monopoly on labor supply, ability to force workers into membership, and the ability to force them to pay dues which the union will then spend on the political whims of its leaders.

Make Wisconsin a Right-to-Work state.

The tax break I am talking about is for farmers not for businesses (lol). Tell me that's going to help tax revenue. Are more farmers going to move into the state !!!

Tell me that's going to help tax revenue. Are more farmers going to move into the state !!!" doubt that, but cutting some of the taxes they have to pay could allow them to hire more people... Besides, we are talking about the union vs the state. I have a different perspective on union vs private company.

Haha, you know what happens when you cut employees pay? They buy less. When they buy less, the people they buy from have to lay people off because they are making less money. Cut pay or raise taxes, the effect is the same. That's reality, not one's perspective.

Give tax breaks = plus to hiring, cutting salaries = negative to hiring.

Jun, who's talking cutting salaries? We are though talking cutting bennies which are not always cash!

Cutting bennies is the same as cutting salary because the staff will shift spending habits to compensate. They will either buy the bennies outright and cut other spending or of course forgoe them completely and the govt will stop paying them to the recipient companies... Which achieves the exact same result... The recipient company will cut staff to compensate for lost income.

Haha, you know what happens when you cut employees pay? They buy less. When they buy less, the people they buy from have to lay people off because they are making less money.

The people these teachers "buy from" are taxpayers. And if teachers are made to pay for their own pensions, like the rest of us, it means less taxes taken from, you know, non-teachers...

Besides, if the "employees" , in this case, don't like it they are free to quit their cushy jobs. Graduation rates in Milwaukee schools accepting vouchers are much higher than the Dem-controlled state schools.

Not true, you just reduce govt borrowing, there will be no effect on taxes. If they quit then the go on unemployment or have no wages. In either case they will stop spending as much and hiring will go down.

Oh and the buying I'm talking about is things like groceries, appliances, cars and stuff like that that people (incising public employees) buy with their paychecks. That's the buying that will be reduced.

Unions are fighting for a monopoly on labor supply

Just as the representatives of capital -- the "union of management" -- fight to monopolize the supply of what they represent and serve.

Unions simply make the fight a fair one.

Oh, how the thought of real democracy and freedom of assembly terrify those who believe that Big Daddy Capital should rule everything. Meanwhile forgetting that it is labor that creates all wealth.

Junnama - Cutting bennies is the same as cutting salary because the staff will shift spending habits to compensate. They will either buy the bennies outright and cut other spending or of course forgoe them completely and the govt will stop paying them to the recipient companies... Which achieves the exact same result... The recipient company will cut staff to compensate for lost income.

"The recipient company" in this case is the TAXPAYER. The majority of taxpayers, who vote, DO NOT want to pay for the increasing debt of the State to cover the increasing costs of the loans being made by the State to cover GOVERNMENT (not private) union members benefits.

The government unions are bargaining with the taxpayers. The legislature is only acting as the middleman. You need to convince the taxpayers that they should have less money in their pockets so that government union members can more money in theirs.

"The recipient company" in this case is the TAXPAYER.

And most of us know that the taxpayers generally want and expect the best services that money can buy -- without having to pay for them.

You need to convince the taxpayers that they should have less money in their pockets so that government union members can more money in theirs.

LOL!! Taxpayers need to figure out how underpaying for police, fire, paramedic, and other services is going to cost them in the long run. With so many self-centered, Republican-types in the mix now, they'll figure it out only after it's too late.

When the country was being born, the founders pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. A Republican, sent back in time, would try to convince them to change the wording to thirty cents on the dollar.

The Wisconsin union fight is a clear issue of wealth being pitted against commonwealth.

Ooops...I meant to say Wealth pitting itself against Commonwealth.

Hot off the presses!

The scab governor of Wisconsin was duped into thinking he was talking to one of his billionaire backers, David Koch. This sleazy individual bragged about his strategy to take down the unions, and -- get this -- "revealed that his supporters had considered secretly planting people in pro-union protest crowds to stir up trouble."

Who supports scum like this?

And most of us know that the taxpayers generally want and expect the best services that money can buy -- without having to pay for them.

LOL. Our public schools are the best money can buy? We spend per pupil more than any country in the world and have fallen in int'l ranking steadily since '76 - when Carter created the DoE.

The scab governor of Wisconsin was duped into thinking he was talking to one of his billionaire backers, David Koch

You mean, he didn't recognize his master's voice!!!????

Right right I have read about the Koch conspiracy, 2 libertarians with a billion are gonna leverage our 13 tril economy. Only libs could believe such nonsense.

No, "the recipient company" is not the taxpayer. They are the companies the teachers buy goods and services from. Those companies will suffer and have to lay people off because less of their goods and services are being bought. There is no way around the negative effect on hiring.

the public employees unions are leeches feeding off of the tax dollars of hardworking people. It's about time they get curbed.

yabits - And most of us know that the taxpayers generally want and expect the best services that money can buy -- without having to pay for them.

It's still the taxpayer's money and you're not going to convince them to spend more of it by being generally insulting about them. What part of "there's no more money" don't the government union members understand?

Walker said not passing the bill by Friday would make even deeper cuts necessary and possibly result in laying off 1,500 workers over the next four months.

Are the government union members so willing to trade 1,500 of their fellow government union members to keep their free benefits?