New Libyan gov't to embrace Sharia law

It is no surprise to anyone who has paid attention. The much-touted "Arab Spring" turns out to be a dark Shariah winter. Expect the same result in Libya and Egypt, and everywhere else where the Arab dictators are deposed and the "Arab street" gets to vote.

Sorry, should have been "expect the same result in Tunisia and Egypt".

Islamists have reason to celebrate.

Being a bit premature, aren't we Willi?

“Finding out how they died matters,” said Sarah Leah Whitson of Human Rights Watch. “It will set the tone for whether the new Libya will be ruled by law or by summary violence.”

I just don't buy that. You had a brutal crackdown and the leader was found by a mob in the streets. It wasn't some kind of decision made by anyone in authority, and Ghaddafi was responsible for setting up the circumstances of how he was captured. He was given plenty of chances to surrender before that but instead chose to keep killing as many as possible. I think Libya is going to be how it's going to be regardless of how he was killed and regardless of if anyone supported his execution or not.

While I don't support murder, I think there are more pressing issues for Libya to focus on right now. What do groups like HRW hope to accomplish? Are they asking Libya to find the people responsible and put them on trial? There are a hundred conflicting stories as it is. Getting a conviction seems impossible. It's good to remind people of the rule of law but in terms of time and resources the West just looks stupid trying to put a handful of men on trial in Libya while continuing to do business with the dictators who still exist in the Middle East.

The loosers are NATO and the west. Soon you will see a Islamic world who dictate woman and kill the people we challenge the evils in own Islamic society. And no freedom to leave own religion if one wishes!!! The Sheria law.

When the Romainians overthrew their dictator they ended up shooting the bum so that his cronies wouldn't have anything left to fight about. I agree that Ghaddafi certainly set the tone, but there was more than one reason to bring him in dead. Good riddance.

realmind: It's 'LOSERS', not loosers. They're not loosing arrows at anyone or 'un-tightening' their belts or anything. Anyway, why are the people in NATO and Western countries losers? Sure, they supported the rebels, but it was, after all, a civil war. Would we all be 'winners' if Ghadafi had won and were still in power?

Anyway, if they do move toward Sharia Law that would be a big step back, and what many feared. Let's hope they do not. As for keeping him on display in a freezer, like I said, they are really no better than he was.

I differ a bit on these issues. There have been recent attempts by some groups in islam to find a way to obtain "human rights" as a derivation of "Islam law". This would make it far more difficult to reject human rights in an islam country. Thus, not everything that comes from Islam's law or sharia law is necessary bad.

Do I have to remind anyone on this forum that the Torah claims things like "an eye for an eye". This clearly contradicts "thou will not kill" of the ten commandments. It is the cultural basis of Israeli law and also input into western legal systems (even though western law normally prefers Christian tenets). Even though religious law is somewhat controversial, it can be used as input for fair legislation.

It is not impossible to create a democratic state, which takes the sharia as input, since it is also possible to create one with the Torah. Sharia law is open to many interpretations. Religion does not matter - people do. If an Islam country had good leaders, it could be a democratic society with sharia as traditional input in law. Too many people have a blind hatred towards Islam.

If you respect basic human rights and recognize women as being equals, my advice would be to leave Libya as fast as possible. Once Sharia law from the middle ages is implemented, you're doomed. Get out now and head to any civilized country.

I differ a bit on these issues. There have been recent attempts by some groups in islam to find a way to obtain "human rights" as a derivation of "Islam law". This would make it far more difficult to reject human rights in an islam country. Thus, not everything that comes from Islam's law or sharia law is necessary bad.

First law new leader of Libya repealed, was one outlawing polygamy. Not sure how anyone can try to reason their way through this being ok. Blind hatred towards Islam is not what is happening. Its an awakening as to what it really is. Its looking at reality, I mean really looking, for the first time, and seeing how rank, how fetid, how devoid of basic human rights Islam, and specifically Sharia law is.

Also, religion and politics should never be as one. They should be treated totally separately. What happens if you're not a Muslim, or a fellow Atheist and you happen to live in Libya? Are you going to be forced to live by barbaric rules loosely based on some old book. Religion has NO place in politics. PERIOD.

Heh, Mission Accomplished for the headline, JT. It's a shame we can't have a thumbs up or down for the articles.

That said, it has given much needed short-term relief to the conspiracies by our resident islamaphobe. Feeling threatened by yesterdays democratic elections in Tunisia with an apparent 90% turnout, I'm not surprised he's feeling threatened.

If the majority of Libyans think Islamic law should be part of their constitution then it is their right, even if us godless Westerners have long rejected the notion as idiotic.

I am sure the women and minorities are just thrilled with this.

Sarcasm off.

@Molenir:

Its looking at reality, I mean really looking, for the first time, and seeing how rank, how fetid, how devoid of basic human rights Islam, and specifically Sharia law is.

You're making the same mistake about sharia that most people make. Sharia must be seen in its historical context. 1400 years ago, the Islam law was very modern. It stated for the first time (in the Arab countries) fixed rules on how many wives a man was allowed to marry and how much financial (and material) support a husband had to offer to each of his wives.

The idea that these rules are supposed to be applied literally in the modern world is extremely backwards. Sadly enough, many powerful people in Muslim countries long for the good old times, when their ancestors held power in a world which was not as complex as the world is now. A lot of simple people (mostly men) without many chances in life see the application of Sharia as a means to rejoice in self-righteousness instead of despair. Of course, most Islam haters today fail to see the context.

I am somehow Christian by faith, but I feel the urge to retch when I hear Christian politicians abuse the name of god for their own political agendas. Stuff like "god's own country", "one nation under god" or "as god is my witness" and so on.

zichi:

" "Religion has NO place in politics. PERIOD." Try telling that to the Americans!

No, you try to tell that the Arabs. Good luck with that.

Talk about barking up the wrong tree...

@WilliB: Religion has NO place in politics. PERIOD (that was my original comment in this thread :)

My comment applies to every nation. Religion is a state of mind and a personal choice. It should never be forced upon everyone, especially not independent and critical thinkers. Forcing religious beliefs is dictatorship (which does not sound very religious - whatever that means)...

Zichi:

" they all stated that elections would be held within 8 months and that Libya would become a democracy. Nothing was stated about turning Libya into an Islamic State with strict Sharia Laws, like it is in Saudia Arabia for instance. "

Wait and see. It is hardly without a reason that Al Quaeda is so heartily embracing the Arab spring.

" The people of Libya are truly free for the first time, will they want to give up those new freedoms and become a strict Islamic State. "

What "Libyan people"? The northern Misrata tribes are celebrating, Gaddafis tribe is certainly not. You are projecting a national identity on a tribal society. And "freedom" for islamists is the freedom to practise full-blown Sharia. You are projecting your Western concepts on a different society. Misguided.

Johannes Weber:

" The idea that these rules are supposed to be applied literally in the modern world is extremely backwards. " But that is islam. Islam never had a period of enlightenment. And alas it does not look like it ever will. The doctrine is stuck forever with litealism..

" Sadly enough, many powerful people in Muslim countries long for the good old times, when their ancestors held power in a world which was not as complex as the world is now. "

Why in "muslim countries"? Mohammad Atta, the leader of 9/11, was radicalised in mosque in HAMBURG, Germany. About 50% iof your BRITIGH muslims want Shariah. Don´t expect the figure to be different for Germany. You already have young Germans plotting jihadis martyr attacks (google for the "Sauerlandbande" if you missed it). The idea that islamis is some geographically limited is wishful thinking.

Suoerlib:

" I just don't buy that. You had a brutal crackdown and the leader was found by a mob in the streets. "

Actually, Debka reports he was shot by NATO special forces and left for the Misrata rebels to find. No way to prove it, but plausible.

Look also at the destruction wrecked on Gaddafis hometown, No way the rebels did that. Those are bombs from French and UK planes, obviously directed by Nato personnel.

Western politicians will once again see their misguided involvement backfire in a big way. Lesson learned from Iraq? NONE.

Interesting ...

it seems that the extremists have been backed up by Nato?

For what reason?

Prediction!

In a few months Libya will be declared a 'rogue state' like Iraq was; in will go the Nato troops to liberate the people for the benefit of the western powers ie the oil companies.

History repeats..............

well i don't imagine things getting too bad in libya. remember everyone is armed in that country now, including women.

libya with more civil wars to come!

More biased propaganda from Associated Press.. I highly doubt Egypt will incorporate Sharia Law, considering there is 15% Christian, Sunni muslims who are generally more moderate then other muslims iie salafi, shiat, wahabi muslims who want sharia..

Stuff religion, it has no place in any country, the main thing is the ECONOMY, EDUCATION, HUMAN RIGHTS

Willib, not just Iraq. Sometimes a dictator is needed. And the civil slaughter begins. Man this never ends.

anglootaku,

Egypt has already included Sharia in its constitution, although under Mubarak its extent was limited. That will change once the Muslim brotherhood gets into government. The 15% Copts are from an outdated source. They are down to about 10% now, and shrinking. Copts live under discriminatory islamic dhimmi laws in Egypt already, so there is now way but down.

Expect the same in Libya. With the difference of course that there are 10% Copts to begin with. As the article mentions, the Misrata leaders have already promised Shariah.

When Sharia law is a fact of life in the UK and France it is not hard to imagine Libya being taken over by it.

Having watched the video of the killing of Ghadafi and the number Alaah ahq-baas heard, it is not hard to say where the rebels are coming from is it?

But not to worry, it is nothing that a few Hellfire missles can't sort out...............

@WilliB Egyptian law ISNT sharia law.. they have a similar constitution to the French and British system, influence from colonial times. Which you can read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Judicial_System and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_law

No different to other former British colonies, ie India, Hong Kong etc having a similar constitution to British law also, although Hong Kong now would be communist law.

Ignorance=fear

Shariah does not fit well with the modern world, but its not that bad. Most of the negative comments and dire warnings are from people who don't know jack squat. Besides, there is no one absolute brand of Shariah. There is plenty of room for interpretation, and every country does it differently.

But one thing I want you to notice. Notice how these M.E. countries got secular, as we westerners wanted, but did so under a dictator, some of whom were supported by the west. And now they want Shariah? And you are surprised? Well look how well secular worked out for them! Duh! Secular is no guarantee of freedom and harmony, and Shariah is no guarantee of disaster.

You all want the best for these people, but our leaders always make sure they get Syriana (great movie). And some of you are like "What?!" This ain't so bad. I just hope the nay sayers don't drum up enough support that the west gets to meddling this away and propping up yet another dictator promising cheap oil. That would be worse than Shariah. So just shut up and wish them luck. If they are going to advance beyond Shariah, its not going to be for our governments, controlled by money, messing with them.

Three years in jail for criticizing Islam in Egypt. Enjoy that Arab Spring!

Egyptian jailed for Facebook Islam insult By Samer al-Atrush (AFP) - 1 day ago CAIRO - An Egyptian court sentenced a man to three years in jail with hard labour on Saturday for insulting Islam in postings on Facebook, the official MENA news agency reported. The Cairo court found that Ayman Yusef Mansur "intentionally insulted the dignity of the Islamic religion and attacked it with insults and ridicule on Facebook," the agency reported.

The Libyans have a right to do what they wish-it is the west that has (for various reasons) gone in to liberate people in the name of 'freedom and national security' So, yes maybe we are (the west) in the wrong to meddle........

You all want the best for these people, but our leaders always make sure they get Syriana (great movie).

Right. Movies. Movies will like, provide you with the real history of the region and show the centrality of Islam in people's lives there. Have some more popcorn.

Economic prosperity has to be key for their development

anglotaaku:

" Egyptian law ISNT sharia law.. they have a similar constitution to the French and British system, influence from colonial times. "

Read article 2 of the Egyptian constitution: Article 2 "Islamic jurisprudence is the principal source of legislation. "

That is the first step on the slippery slope. And once the Muslim Brotherhood takes power, expect it to be fully enforced.

Same scenario for Libya of course.

Economic prosperity has to be key for their development

And implementing Sharia is a sure way to kill prosperity.

papa_will_preach:

" Shariah does not fit well with the modern world, but its not that bad. "

Well, that depends on your position, of course. If you are male and like multiple wifes, including under-age ones, I can see how you think it ain´t so bad.

Do you think women, homosexuals, cartoonists, non-muslim minorities, or pray tell atheists agree that Sharia is "not so bad" for them?

Willi, before I answer, tell me exactly why women, homosexuals, cartoonists, non-muslim minorities, and atheists should all fear Shariah.

WiliB seems to be the only person on this thread that has a clue about what is going to happen in Libya and what has been going on in Egypt. If you think the minorities or the women are happy in Egypt with the way things have been going you don't know enough to comment on things. If the Muslim Brotherhood gets any sort of power they are going to set this country back. I hope the smart women and minorities get the heck out ASAP if things go the way they are headed.

To whomever suggest that "NATO forces" killed Gadhdafi, perhaps you would like to view the videos where he was found alive with no bullet injuries, then look for the videos of the men dancing and cheering while one guy claims HE shot him. NATO shot him.... Christ on a bike.

Economic prosperity has to be key for their development

If you make it all about money they will have a Hussein to replace their Gaddafi. No thanks.

Tmarie:

" To whomever suggest that "NATO forces" killed Gadhdafi, "

I don´t think anybody here claimed that. I pointed out that Debka says Nato forces found him, shot him in the legs and him be found by the Misrata rebels. If it is true we don´t know, but it would make sense. The video shows him in obvious pain, unable to walk. That would match the story.

The men dancing and cheering show on TV are of course the victorious tribes. You won´t see any dancing and cheering from Gaddafis tribe.

Papa_will_preach:

" tell me exactly why women, homosexuals, cartoonists, non-muslim minorities, and atheists should all fear Shariah. "

Good grief, if that question is serious, I really suggest you inform yourself on the content of islamic law.

Wili, my understanding was that he was suggesting NATO killed him. Apologies if that was not what was meant. There are videos of men cheering and a man claiming to have killed him. Indeed, you won't find any cheering from his tribe. How this country thinks that they'll be able to stick together and become a better place is beyond me when you have so much hatred. I expect civil war between tribes.

And like I said, I don't expect the minorities or the women are happy with the whole turn of events and Sharia Law coming in - much like the ones in Egypt.

Heh, it's nice to be on the side of hope for a brave people that just fought bitterly for their freedom, than the side of those that are desperate for Libya to turn into some sort of Talibanesque Afghanistan to prove how much they hate Islam.

I see Tunisia is no longer part of the conspiracy willi... I can't understand why.

@zichi -we in the west are hypocrites supporting regimes that hate us (by buying oil) but that is the way of the world.......

@WilliB:

About 50% iof your BRITIGH muslims want Shariah. Don't expect the figure to be different for Germany.

Germany has already the Sharia law. If muslims wish, they can be ruled according to sharia law, as long as it doesn't contradict federal law. While polygamy is forbidden in Germany, German law doesn't enforce cancellation of polygamous marriages from a time before immigration. The responsibility to support all wives in a polygamous marriage is ruled by sharia law, so German courts apply sharia, if there are legal issues with the financial support. So far, no harm done.

Freedom of religion means that You see all kinds of fanatics coming into the country - Islamists, Christian fundamentalists, ultra-orhtodox Jews, scientologists amongst others. I don't know which ones are the most scary...

What does disliking Sharia have to do with "hating" Muslims? Speak to moderate Muslims and they will bitterly complain about it as well. Wanting equality for women, men AND minorities isn't about hating any religion. Why are people so quick to jump on the "you just hate Muslims" bandwagon before stopping to think about the issues at hand which is the freedom from some while other freedoms will be taken from others - like women and minorities.

@tmarie:

Christian or Jewish religious law doesn't have equal rights for women either. These are law codes from the past. If they are understood in a historical context and applied as secondary to federal, democratic law, there is no problem.

Ah, the wingnuts that know nothing about Islam and Shariah but what the read on right wing blogs are out as usual! I'm pretty much anti-religious but I don't see the big hubbub about Shariah. It's just a system of laws like any other. Even moderate Islamic countries use it as a basis for their laws much as the west uses its bible. And just as some use the bible for bad governance so do some Islamists.

But so many see the would 'Shariah' and their blood just boils and boils! Crazy.

Yeah... Shariah is great for us men. We can force women to obey us and use scripture to justify it. Step out of the house and all the men out there will agree.

If the women don't like it, the courts will deal with them. Win-win situation. Where's the problem?

Yes, SHaria is another religious code much like any other. The difference is that it is used as the main source of legal jurisprudence, and not as a historical artifact. Not too many countries are ruled by fundamentalist Christian teachings, but fundamentalist Islam IS the root of many nations' legal systems.

You want to see it in action, go to Saudi Arabia. Total mysogynist nightmare of a country. People are executed for witchcraft, rape victims are flogged, children are left to suffer and die in burning schools rather than being allowed to escape without their headcoverings.

Apostasy is a death penalty offense in many countries that suffer under sharia, as is homosexuality. As is "mocking" the prophet.

You want to see it in action, go to Saudi Arabia.

Or any other Islamic country. Saudi's problem is Wahhabism, not Shariah.

The problem with shariah law is that it pretty much bans anything that is fun... alcohol, gambling, adultery...

I could never live under those conditions.

Christian or Jewish religious law doesn't have equal rights for women either. These are law codes from the past. If they are understood in a historical context and applied as secondary to federal, democratic law, there is no problem.

Are you assuming that I think their religious laws okay? Because I certainly don't. But since you brought them up, may I ask you what those laws have to do with the discussion at hand? Nothing. We aren't talking about a country who is thinking of going by Jewish or Christian laws, we are discussion a country that is talking about implementing Shariah law. I highly doubt I would be accused of hating Christians and Jewish people though when I do voice my dislike of their religious laws.

Since we're on the topic of equal rights for women, why don't you do a search on how Egyptian women are feeling now that there is talk of Shariah law. Why don't you ask the women in Egypt right now if they have more freedom and safety now or before the fall of their government. And while you're at it, ask the women of Libya about their levels of freedom and safety now and go back in a year if Shariah law is instated and see how they feel. Then get back to me and let me know if they feel the law has been "applied as secondary to federal, democratic law".

People need to calm down a bit. The Libyan gov't will make "Sharia law would be the “basic source” of legislation." OK, but we don't really know what that means yet, beyond polygamy and a cap on interest. Notice that last one: to my knowledge, the Koran bans interest all together. People are freaking out because they think they know what "Sharia" is, but this shows you it is all in the interpretation. Lybia is a Muslim country, and while it may not be ideal, it is not at all surprising that its laws will have an Islamic influence. That doesn't automatically translate into stonings for adultery and execution of homosexuals. Save the hysterical doom-and-gloom analyses at least until we can see what sort of government comes out of the transition.

I told you earlier about that. That this paid war will not gonna end good for Libya, but you didn't listened to me, downranked me into oblivion and called a fool. How many times I should tell you all that you finally will listen to me? Allah bless Saif al-Islam in his holy battle against shameless greedy NATO.

That doesn't automatically translate into stonings for adultery and execution of homosexuals. Save the hysterical doom-and-gloom analyses at least until we can see what sort of government comes out of the transition.

Can you name me one Muslim country that follows Sharia Law where homosexual are treated well - I won't go with fairly as even "our" governments have an issue there.

Can you also give me an example of a country that follows this law where women have even close to the standard of living/rights that women in "our" countries have - by this I mean the right to divorce, the right to face their rapist and have a fair trial, the right to walk around uncovered, the right to drive, the right to leave the home without a family member/husband... present? I can think of some countries that may fulfill some of the requirements I have laid out but can't think of one that fulfills all.

This law is 'great' is you are a heterosexual male adult. It sucks for anyone else that isn't. It would be great if it updated itself with the current world but the sad fact is, the people that want this law want to go back to "the good old days" when they ruled the house/country with very little questions asked. The law as many believe it to be, doesn't match with the day and age with live in. You can't possibly think that the liberated and educated women of Libya (or Egypt for that matter) will be happy to see the rights and freedoms they currently have be taken away.

And before anyone starts with 'those aren't in the law", you're right, they aren't but it seems that countries who follow the law manage to come up with some odd laws banning women and minorities to the same rights that the Muslim men have.

@tmarie:

The relation is that many western countries refer to a religious code of law as basis for their federal or secular law. And by the way, some people are very quick to decry you as anti-Semite if you don't like Jewish law or Israeli policy (if you have a German background). And I am personally scared about Israeli laws that men an women have to use different doors on buses. Sounds pretty much like sharia-style to me.

As long as the constitution of a new state Libya is democratic -and I have strong doubts that it will be - it doesn't matter which religious code they refer to. The problem is not sharia itself - the problem is that people (usually males) use sharia as a means of suppressing others (usually females). The problem's root in Egypt, Libya and many, many other countries is that a lot of people are not convinced of a modern and free society.

I did never ever say that any implementation of sharia up to now has ever been fair or just. I also never said women are treated well in countries with sharia law. But I think it is wrong to judge before knowing the full story. And the full story in Libya has not unfolded yet. Although I fear that it will be very disappointing in the end, the people in Libya deserve a chance to set things right before they are judged.

Well this is going to be fun to observe. Just have to wait for the current Libyans to start creating their laws then, with in the restrictions of shariah in place of course.

Johannes my friend you're woefully out in wonderland. I understand the German system and it ties in with the fact that anyone can practice their own religious beliefs as long as it does not conflict with Germany's guidlines and protection of human rights. The thing that you're forgetting is Libya is NOT Germany and as with many middle eastern and African countries being run under this "harmless" shariah law do not abide by the human rights protections you're taking for granted. We're just going to watch Libya go the way of many other Islamic governed countries where persecution and extremism will be commonplace in regards to religion. The proof will show in time.

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss." Or maybe worse....

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss." Or maybe worse....

Really? I mean, really? The new Libyan gov't - which doesn't even exist yet - is just as bad or worse than the dude with the death squads and the secret police network?

Freedom of religion means that You see all kinds of fanatics coming into the country - Islamists, Christian fundamentalists, ultra-orhtodox Jews, scientologists amongst others. I don't know which ones are the most scary...

This is actually a very easy question... Which one has folks setting off bombs indiscriminately? See, wasn't hard to figure out at all.

Just think, America spent a billion dollars to install these thugs.

Hey so far they seem the same as the old government. Very classy assassinating Gadhafi and his son. Now their corpses are on display, it does not give me a lot of confidence.

If they adapt the Quranic Sharia in to the system, it is the success of their nation.

Johannes Weber

And I am personally scared about Israeli laws that men an women have to use different doors on buses. Sounds pretty much like sharia-style to me.

Wow, those Israeli laws certainly do sound scary and very sharia-like to me too. Until I checked and realized there are no such laws. If you are going to make a case for not fearing sharia laws in Libya, it was probably help to use actual facts to support your argument. One thing you have made a case for is checking things before making claims about them.

Zichi what does in Africa there are at least 9 Christian based countries which are anti-GAYS. have to do with anything being discussed here? This thread is about Libya, a Muslim majority society. Shame people like yourself can't discuss the topic at hand and try and argue about things not related.

Johannes Weber, glad you are optimistic. I am not. Why? Seems to be a cycle of violence and revenge in these areas. Until they get past their hurt feelings and think of the people, nothing will change. No wait, women and minorities freedoms will be lessened meaning over half the population will have a worse quality of life than they had before. Free at last, free at last.

Zichi, I already commented on it - perhaps you could read the comments before posting. And regardless, we aren't discussing Jewish and Christian laws - as I have already pointed out - but Muslim ones. More than happy to discuss my disgust for both Jewish and Christian laws on a thread about them.

tmarie

Can you also give me an example of a country that follows this law where women have even close to the standard of living/rights that women in "our" countries have - by this I mean the right to divorce, the right to face their rapist and have a fair trial, the right to walk around uncovered, the right to drive, the right to leave the home without a family member/husband... present?

Malaysia. Muslims are governed by Shariah courts as well as civil courts. Women have all of these rights in Malaysia. Malay Muslim women can walk around in miniskirts if they so choose. Incidentally, the same is true in Indonesia, which is only the largest Muslim country in the world.

And actually, can you name me countries where it's not possible for women to walk around unaccompanied or uncovered? There's Saudi Arabia.... OK, Iranian women mus have their head covered but need not be accompanied. How about some others?

Saudi Arabia + Iran =/= all of the Muslim world. But all of the Muslim world is influenced by Shariah (and has many countries that are decent places to live), so why the fear?

Pawtan, I asked for countries that could do numerous things that western women can all do - and gave various examples. Can you name me ONE country that allows what I mentioned?

Chechnya is coming up with new rules about women being covered and not allowed being out without family members. Have you been to the strict parts of Malaysia? The women are all covered - and are with family members. Is it country law? Nope. Not yet but if things continue as they are going.... Do you actually think Malay women walk around in mini-skirts?? I have to question weather you've been there - and Indonesia - if you think they do. And if you think canning women for drinking is a country where women get treated the same as men, I have news for you.

Oh and you gave your examples for me. Though I would double check on Iran if I were you. Still waiting for your one example for the issues I put forth.

Why the fear? As a women I think it is wrong that other women are treated less than equal to the men.

tmarie

Still waiting for your one example for the issues I put forth.

I gave you two countries - Malaysia and Indonesia. Didn't you see my first post? It says:

Malaysia. Muslims are governed by Shariah courts as well as civil courts. Women have all of these rights in Malaysia. Malay Muslim women can walk around in miniskirts if they so choose. Incidentally, the same is true in Indonesia, which is only the largest Muslim country in the world.

"Moderate" Islam will only be as moderate as it can be in their eyes. Government law and religious "law" should never be mixed, and sharia totally puts throws the baby out with the bathwater no matter how "moderate" they want it to be.

Do you actually think Malay women walk around in mini-skirts?? I have to question weather you've been there - and Indonesia - if you think they do.

I lived there for two years. There are plenty of Malay women wearing mini-skirts - not as many as Singapore, but still plenty. I have a ton of Malay friends and I'd say 75% of the women don't wear any head coverings.

And if you think canning women for drinking is a country where women get treated the same as men, I have news for you.

Drinking is forbidden for all Muslims in Malaysia. Not just women.

Have you been to the strict parts of Malaysia? The women are all covered - and are with family members

What do you mean "all covered"? Do you mean wearing a head scarf? That's cultural, you see that in Thailand as well. It's not law. And what do you mean "are with family members"? Is that unusual for families to travel together anywhere in rural SE Asia, Buddhist or Muslim countries? I think you see what you want to see, not reality.

Pawatan, I disagreed with your answers and gave you reasons why.

Living in KL is not the same as living in the northern, strict Muslim areas where they follow different rules. Terengganu for example. Fully covered from ankles to head - walking WITH male family members. I have spent enough time there to have friedns as well and they have openly spoekn about how they get treated differently by the law because they are women. They have also spoken about how to law is getting stricter and they worry about the future of the females there.

Drinking is indeed forbidden but can you please let me know when the last man was arrested and sentence to punishment by canning for drinking? Or how about cheating? Been a few women sentenced to that too in Malaysia but yet the men seem to get away with it...

The reality is that women who live under Sharif law get treated differently than the man - based on the laws themselves. If you don't see a problem with half the population being treated less than equal there really is no point in discussion why I don't agree with these laws - and fear for the safety and the freedom of the women of Libya.

Living in KL is not the same as living in the northern, strict Muslim areas where they follow different rules. Terengganu for example.

I've traveled all over Malaysia, thank you!

Terengganu is like Aceh in Indonesia - very much the exception and not the rule. That being said I have a friend from Terengganu who is quite religious, he is very odd towards his wife in my eyes but she does travel unaccompanied and does not dress any differently than a typical Malaysian woman.

Drinking is indeed forbidden but can you please let me know when the last man was arrested and sentence to punishment by canning for drinking?

You seem to leave out the fact that she WASN'T caned. So when was the last time that happened to a woman or a man?

Or how about cheating? Been a few women sentenced to that too in Malaysia but yet the men seem to get away with it...

...And it was considered a miscarriage of justice, even among conservative Malays. You don't have cases of miscarriage of justice in your home country? In a country of 23 million there are bound to be bad judicial decisions, poor policing. But what is the norm? This is most certainly, unequivocally not the norm in Malaysia, and you know that.

The reality is that women who live under Sharif law get treated differently than the man - based on the laws themselves.

In some countries. Not all, or not even most. Can you give me examples other than Iran or Saudi Arabia where this is the case? Morocco? Turkey? Egypt? Jordan?

If you don't see a problem with half the population being treated less than equal there really is no point in discussion why I don't agree with these laws

Of course I have a problem with this, but it simply NOT the reality in most of the Muslim world, much like the Uganda is not the norm in the Christian world.

Does it matter is she was or not? The only reason she wasn't was because of the international outcry. You don't want to use Terengganu because it is very much the except ion to the rule. Great. Then you can't use Malaysia as an example as IT is very much an exception to the rule - but yet, still treats women as less than equal. You can't have iot both ways.

Turkey? Oh dear, it seems you really don't have a clue about Sharif Law and what countries go by it.

Simply NOT the reality in most Muslim countries? You're shifting here. We are discussing Sharif Law and countries that follow it. You do get that not all Muslim countries follow it, right?

And bringing up Christianity... Again, has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Two rights don't make a wrong, off topic and not helping.

Simply NOT the reality in most Muslim countries? You're shifting here. We are discussing Sharif Law and countries that follow it. You do get that not all Muslim countries follow it, right?

All Muslim countries follow Sharia law to some extent. It's the basis of their legal system, more or less. It is their tradition much as Biblical tradition is the basis of western legal systems, to greater or lesser degrees.

But if you are just trying to argue that Saudi Arabia and Iran are foul places for women - well, there's no argument there. Other places with super strict Shariah such as Sudan or Somalia are foul places to live for everyone.

Does it matter is she was or not?

Actually, it matters greatly. Don't you think so?

You don't want to use Terengganu because it is very much the except ion to the rule. Great. Then you can't use Malaysia as an example as IT is very much an exception to the rule - but yet, still treats women as less than equal. You can't have iot both ways.

No, I said Terengganu is an exception to mainstream Malay culture. Is the law such that women must remain fully covered and must travel with a family escort? NO, it is not. Not there, not anywhere in Malaysia. So there is no exception. I just mention that Terengganu and Aceh are exceptions much like Uganda is an exception for Christianity, CULTURALLY, which is completely the point. Malaysia recognizes both Shariah law for Malays and the rights of women for all races, so if you want to ignore that and keep on repeating blindly "Shariah is always bad!" then you can feel free to do so. It's just highly inaccurate, that's all. But it's your right to be wrong should you so choose.

That doesn't automatically translate into stonings for adultery and execution of homosexuals. Save the hysterical doom-and-gloom analyses at least until we can see what sort of government comes out of the transition.

If I were European this is what i would be telling myself. Over and over. Libya devolving into what Egypt is becoming or wracked by an endless civil war, resulting in mass emigration, is too much for soft, geriatric, fiscally forked modern-day Europe to bear.

Actually, it matters greatly. Don't you think so?

No. The only reason why she wasn't canned was because of international pressure. Money talks. In a growing economy and all....

My right to be wrong?? Again, perhaps you should speak to a few more women who live in this wonderful country and ask them how they feel. Surprise, shock. They won't agree with your views. But go on, think that countries that treat women less than equal are okay. by By all means. Nothing new.

"The Muslim holy book, the Quran, allows men up to four wives"

That's ridiculous, men should be allowed as many wives as they want, lol.

How about allowing women up to four husbands? Nah...

Save the hysterical doom-and-gloom analyses at least until we can see what sort of government comes out of the transition.

Isn't that putting a band aid upon the stump after amputation for gangrene?

One thing you have made a case for is checking things before making claims about them.

And another would be that anti-antisemitism apparently has not totally left the German psyche.

All I can say is that any religion or derivative thereof that bans drinking is insanity itself. Get yourself a nice bottle of gently aged scotch, maybe some jazz and chillax.

tmarie

Again, perhaps you should speak to a few more women who live in this wonderful country and ask them how they feel. Surprise, shock. They won't agree with your views.

I'm currently dating a lovely Malay girl, actually. I think I have a pretty good idea what they think and feel. I have tons of friends there, men and women. So don't tell me I don't know what a Malay woman really thinks!

No. The only reason why she wasn't canned was because of international pressure.

So? She wasn't caned. It's a moot argument.

One person's opinion doesn't count for everyone's! Lovely Malay? Do you think it is "common" for Muslim women to date those a) out of their ethnic group and b) a non-Muslim? Perhaps you are Malay and Muslim but if you aren't, you might want to check how common it is for Muslim women to date outside their group. Hint - doesn't usually happen.

It isn't a moot point. If international communities hadn't stepped up and voiced concern, they would be canned.

Ask your GF about the treatment of women in Malaysia compared to other countries and ask her how she feels about the government becoming more "Muslim" in their rulings. I think you might be surprised by her comments. Then again, she might be fine with it. She does have a foreigner bf so a rather open-minded family. The same could not be said for all.

4 wives?? 4 more headaches!! No thanks!!

Do you think it is "common" for Muslim women to date those a) out of their ethnic group and b) a non-Muslim? Perhaps you are Malay and Muslim but if you aren't, you might want to check how common it is for Muslim women to date outside their group. Hint - doesn't usually happen.

Actually, yeah, it's quite common, but it's uncommon to marry. That would be a big problem for us if it ever got to that point as I am not a Muslim. I do have a good friend who married a Muslim women (and converted), so it does happen.

Ask your GF about the treatment of women in Malaysia compared to other countries and ask her how she feels about the government becoming more "Muslim" in their rulings. I think you might be surprised by her comments. Then again, she might be fine with it.

She doesn't particularly like Malaysia but that's just because she spent her whole life there. I think she feels on the whole that Malaysia is not conservative enough - I know she criticizes some of our friends for not being good Muslims (which I personally find bizarre). I've never heard her or my other Malay female friends complain about women's rights, and believe me we talk about politics.

Wow, her friends aren't good Muslims and she's dating a non-Muslim. WTF is up with that?

Not common for marriage because many family won't allow it - or the other one refuses to convert.

Indeed it does happen - I have a few Muslims/converts in my family but wow, the crap they had to go through.

Wow, her friends aren't good Muslims and she's dating a non-Muslim. WTF is up with that?

Well I am sure she'd prefer I was Muslim as well but I am not and don't claim to be, so... Anyway, people are strange when it comes to religion!

Not common for marriage because many family won't allow it - or the other one refuses to convert.

My guess is probably more the latter than the former - it seems like a lot o people I have talked to only care about the religion and not the culture when it comes to 'mixed' marriages. One of the most hardcore Malay guys I know (hardcore UMNO supporter) told me he has no problem with non-Malays dating/marrying Malays as long as they are or convert to be Muslim. Small sample size, I know :)

For Malays... the most tolerant nationality of Muslims. Can't see that going down well in places like Pakistan nor Iran. Sadly.

For Malays... the most tolerant nationality of Muslims. Can't see that going down well in places like Pakistan nor Iran. Sadly.

Maybe so, tmarie, maybe so. As it is for me I can't claim that religion is not a huge obstacle, and as a non-religious person I find that really stupid. Though don't tell my GF that!

Girlfriends?? I thought the topic here was?? New Libyan Govt to embrace Muslim strict as heck laws right?? I still think 3 or 4 wives is just stupid, but that is their problem, I am sure the kids must be really happy to have to share their daddy with 3 other families, sounds like hell on earth!

I have GAY relatives. Who cares. Sharia is wrong

Well you might care if said family member lived in a country or was from a country with Sharia law. Not always about your Japangal.

Canada just had a lovely case of Sharia in action.

A father (from Afghanistan) is accused of murdering his three teenage daughters because they dishonored the family. He also murdered their "aunt", who was actually his first wife. She was infertile, so he married a second wife and the whole lot came to Canada. He was quoted as saying, "I hope the devil sh##s on their graves" about his daughters.

If this is what you want, then by all means welcome Sharia.

A father (from Afghanistan) is accused of murdering his three teenage daughters because they dishonored the family. He also murdered their "aunt", who was actually his first wife. She was infertile, so he married a second wife and the whole lot came to Canada. He was quoted as saying, "I hope the devil sh##s on their graves" about his daughters.

How is this a case of Sharia? He's on trial under Canadian criminal codes, not Sharia. Also, as far as I know, Sharia does not permit you to murder an infertile wife.

I happen to think Sharia is a bad idea and any nod to theocracy is dangerous, but let's not exaggerate.

No, you don't murder her, you just get a new one. And then in many cases, beat her and have the sons treat her like crap.

" zichiOCT. 28, 2011 - 01:46AM JST The UN is voting today to end the NATO mission in 4 days?"

General speculation is : Nato's mission accomplished that was to oust M. Gadhafi regime & of course to secure the oil field & the production machines.

What the West needs now is a sort of pro-West regime for the sake of protecting their newly acquired interests. Fair enough, the US has been honest throughout the intervention in Libya with genuine will of helping Libyan people in setting up a democratic govt whereas N. Sarkozy & D. Cameron's went there even before the war ended to claim their share of 'rewards' then immediately returned to Europe & continued with fight against each other on the debt issues. For once, I support fully the Americans in this Libyan intervention !

One link is missing in most of comments is that it has less to do with religion, and more to do with nation's overall level of civility and education.

Two days ago an Islamic party won the elections in Tunisia with about 40% of the votes. Here is what they have done so far:

They formed a coalition with another 2-4 parties. One or two of these parties are leftists (socialists, etc.). They could have formed the government with only one party, but they preferred to get everyone involved.

The prime minister to be is from the Islamic party. The president is likely to be a socialist/ex-socialist.

They have elected members to a parliament like body, half of them which are women.

Party's president stated that people can still drink alcohol, and women are free to dress what they, want including bikinis. (Nope, no oppression)

Now you have some Muslims stating that Tunisian have no understanding of Islam, and that they favor material pleasures over God's true guidance. So, the question is: are Muslims bad or good? It depends on who they are. If an educated nation adopts Islam, they will have good results. And if intellectually poor nations adopts Islam, you will have poor results.

That said, I don't think that if Libyans where Christians, they would have been any better. Their current problem is that their people were much oppressed, so they need time to open up. Though to be frank, I didn't hear them state that they will adopt Sharia, it's just that their constitution shouldn't conflict with Islamic rules.

So WilliB, concerning your comments regarding the Arab-spring (becoming Arab-winter). It's not for you to decide who deserves a democracy and who deserves a dictatorship.

What Libyans needs is to work with people with higher education and experience in functional civil administration, because they have neither in any appreciable number. These leaders need to share experiences in building post-conflict civil administration with Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Somalia and other post-conflict nations, so clearly they would benefit from some assistance in this area. Shows some foresight on their part really, and the fact they recognize that governing a nation is a difficult thing to do at the best of times and of course, the end of Libya's 4 decades of systematic destruction of all local administrative capacity will be a difficult challenge.

The world needs unanimous agreement that no country anywhere should be allowed to integrate religion into the fundamentals of the state. It's that simple.

Chamade:

" The world needs unanimous agreement that no country anywhere should be allowed to integrate religion into the fundamentals of the state. It's that simple. "

It is that simple, but it does not work in the islamic world. Because there, a separation between religion of state has never existed, is conceptually impossible, and will therefore never exist.

If you believe you can introduce that, you are only showing your Western cultural bias. Libya has, with Western help, replaced a relatively secular dictator with islamists, and Western politicians will reap the fruits of their mistake.

Lesson learned from Iraq? None.

Idonesia, Turkey and Malaysia appear to do reasonably well with a certain level of clear delineation. History tells us Christianity is just as potentially dangerous - it is a matter of degreee, I think.

There is one word in this story that stands out a mile: OIL

Who really cares what religion a country is providing they keep selling oil.

The only thing that can be said about that war ( and us Brits have never not been at war) is the murdering bastard GADAFFI has got his just desserts , he fought us for 40 years thro the IRA and is responsible for killing people who did not deserve to die HE DID!

Great... It means...Not only about stoning to death...Or to marry Up to 4 Wife... But also No prostitution, No Adultery , No Gambling ( All kinds of Lottery.. Casino.....) , No Alcohol, No Interest or Interest free in Money deals, The Shari-ah Is the complete guide to stabilise the Law and Order in Society.

pawatan

Malaysia. Muslims are governed by Shariah courts as well as civil courts. Women have all of these rights in Malaysia. Malay Muslim women can walk around in miniskirts if they so choose. Incidentally, the same is true in Indonesia, which is only the largest Muslim country in the world.>

There is one problem with divorce in Malaysia that I have had the privilege to discuss at length with a Malaysian who fought this law in court and won. He married a muslim woman and was originally a Hindu but after one year he got a divorce and wanted to go back to being a Hindu again. According to Malaysia Sharia law you are not allowed to switch back to your religion after becoming a Muslim. he fought this in court for 5 years and even studied law to be his own lawyer. Everyone thought he was doomed since they would surely put him in jail. He ended up winning and getting his freedom. He said we have to fight and die for freedom. He is a hero in his country for the people who know about this case and even the court respected his fight. This case was never publicized and he refused to speak with the press which pleased the court. This could be a movie.

Gadhafi’s body remained on display Sunday in a commercial freezer in the port city of Misrata, which suffered from a weeks-long bloody siege by regime forces in the spring. People have lined up since Friday to view the body, which was laid out on a mattress on the freezer floor. The bodies of Gadhafi’s son Muatassim and his ex-defense minister Abu Bakr Younis also were put on display, and people wearing surgical masks have filed past, snapping photos of the bodies

That's just WRONG and disgusting...

As for Sharia Law banning Gays? How primitive and barbaric.... Same with all those "religions" banning the Gay. I am from a very long line of WISE people in my family, dating back 2 hundred years ago. At least I have freedom to practice my beliefs and commune with gods and deities without anyone trowing rocks at me or harassing me. And NO!! There is NO devil worship in the craft. So please, I think its time for some people to grow up and stop bashing and criticizing without having one ounce of knowledge about all this. Especially the gross stereotypes like calling everything non-christian "voodoo crock" or stuff like that. It's seriously incorrect and embarrassing. I do not know much about Sharia Law but I feel that banning Gays members from their society is really disrespectful and hurtful to those that follow Islam and are loyal to it. Loving the same gender does not make you less or lower. I've met some Gay Pagans that left me breathless in how much they apply their wisdom and rituals into their everyday life. Being Gay is NOT an illness, period!!

I'm so sick and tired of religious fanatics calling gays sick and that their invisible "god" hates fags. What an utter disgrace!!!

.

@zichi

The body of Gaddafi and his son was buried days ago?

Oh yeah? Ooopppss.. sorry my friend. I thought they were still on display in those freezers.