New Russian military doctrine says NATO top threat

Or Russia could accept that it isn't going to get the territory outside the Donbass. I think that would be several thousand times cheaper.

Not whole russia but putin and his friengs

Nato top threat to Putin's dictatorial rule in Russia.

Czar Putin and the hollow State of Corruption that is Mother Russia will certainly be the end of us all, if Vlad the Impaler has his way.

Dog barks viciously when his back is against the wall.

Of COURSE it IS:

A responce to Congress passing the Ukraine Freedom Act, lethal aid for Ukraine, as usual President Putin wears that disconcerting big bad wolf grin, dramatic enough to scare the neighbours senseless, and frighten the children. Santa Claus he ain't.

Couldn't trust the soviets, can't trust the Russians.

Bah. I think everyone sees this for the justification of aggression that it is.

scipantheist Or Russia could accept that it isn't going to get the territory outside the Donbass.

in period from 1991 till now not Russia moving west , but NATO moving east

Surprise ?

In Anno 1991 when USSR and Warsaw Pact were dissolved - it was a huge distance between NATO and Russian borders

But NATO constantly moves East

At the end NATO comes to Russian borders

And new conflict starts

So who is guilty ?

-explanation of the issue http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault

Nato's Explanation of the issue: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_109141.htm

The real issue right now: Russia controls the gas going into Ukraine and gives them highly reduced, preferred rates. Ukraine is basically bankrupt and owes back payments on this gas. What is Nato going to do if the Russian gas is cut off this Winter?

Nato is not equipped to confront Russia or offer membership to Ukraine as President Putin well knows. The EU has brokered peace with President Putin who has flagrantly chosen military action. President Putin only has himself to blame. The EU through huge energy contracts offered the Kremlin a opportunity to build a lasting relationship from the remnants of the cold war. Now through his own foolishness President Putin has turned Russia GDP into half that of california.

itsonlyrocknroll Nato is not equipped to confront Russia or offer membership to Ukraine as President Putin well knows.

NATO was created exactly to confront Russia (Or may be to confront Aliens or Planet Nibiru )??

It can be explained before 1991 but not after USSR collapsed

And after China rise it is really interesting (russophobia is a reason why ??)

The EU has brokered peace with President Putin who has flagrantly chosen military action.

The EU took a desicion to conquer Ukraine at any price

Even coup d'etat and ethnic cleansing and using heavy artillery against civil population

President Putin only has himself to blame. The EU through huge energy contracts offered the Kremlin a opportunity to build a lasting relationship from the remnants of the cold war.

Almost the same thing was offered to German Jews by most famous German Chancellor

Russian are not so stupid

Now through his own foolishness President Putin has turned Russia GDP into half that of california.

USA is a totally running out today

(Bankruptcy)

@Olegek Russia could have chosen the path of democratization and joined NATO. Instead they decided to be confrontational as always. The whole Russian identity is based around confronting the West. The US is not going to turn down the right of people in Kiev not to be intimidated by Russia.

The US is not going to turn down the right of people in Kiev not to be intimidated by Russia.

What about the people in Eastern Ukraine that voted for secession. Does their Democratic Votes not count while they are being bombed from the criminals who openly overthrew the elected Gov in Kiev.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

A preliminary count from eastern Ukraine showed 89 percent of voters in the Donetsk region and 97.5 percent in neighboring Luhansk voted for greater autonomy.

@basey3 I think you mean "elected". Some would say the first legitimate election was the one for Poroshenko this year.

I guess we are meant to feel sorry for Russia while they extend their borders.

Hi Olegek I think we are going to struggle to agree on the current role of Nato. The Ukrainian crisis has highlighted just how weak the NATO is.

There is no question that if President Putin decides to invade the Ukraine, the country will be over run in a matter of weeks, the loss of civilian life as well as military personal will be unprecedented. Because of the weakness and lack of readiness among the NATO nations coupled with the inability for EU 28 countries to agree any form of defence cooperation strategy, the US defence department could well set the agenda and I will refrain dramatise where that could lead to.

@scipantheist Russia could have chosen the path of democratization and joined NATO.

I can remember that in year 2000 Putin asked to join NATO

The answer was negativ

Instead they decided to be confrontational as always. .

It can't be safety only for one side and if West provide his own security , Russia do the same thing - it's quite normal : But when two systems side by side creating 2 independent systems of total security - the result will be only one - total disaster

The whole Russian identity is based around confronting the West.

Yeh I remember - it was crusade not only against Muslim but also against Russian Ortodox

No - Russia is unique culture (it's not Europe no Asia )

The US is not going to turn down the right of people in Kiev not to be intimidated by Russia.

1 People in Donetsk also have right 2 Moving toward Russian borders - means provoking the war The conflict arise not in Gulf of Mexico 3 If USA pretend on world supremacy - this means nuclear war

@SuperLib I guess we are meant to feel sorry for Russia while they extend their borders.

I recommend you to find a map of Ukraine when this country enter to Russian Empire (1654) It was not so big at this time...to say the truth it was much more smaller ... And Ukraine NEVER was totally independent state like Poland

@ itsonlyrocknroll - thanks

The Ukrainian crisis has highlighted just how weak the NATO is. There is no question that if President Putin decides to invade the Ukraine, the country will be over run in a matter of weeks, the loss of civilian life as well as military personal will be unprecedented.

Putin has not invaded Ukraine, but thousands of people in Ukraine have died as a result of inner conflict, millions have run from their burned towns and villages

But Putin has not invaded !!

And in Russian Crimea - all are sound and safe !!!

Hi Olegek, President Putin is actively supporting the Pro-Russian rebels with Russian troops including special forces, military tactical advisers, and heavy artillery though. The human cost is over 4,500 people 35 children, over 10,000 wounded 105 children. Reuters is reporting Crimea cut off, with no land corridor to Russia, Crimea relies on a ferry service and flights from Russia.

And at what a cost to the Russian people and economy the Ruble has lost 50% of its value in just under a year. The central bank has had to raise interest rates to 17%. I am afraid President Putin gambled and lost, he mistakenly thought the Russian economy could withstand the blatant interference in Ukraine, a policy of soviet style adventurism. All that resulted was Russia’s financial meltdown. President Putin had it all a sizable chunk of Europes energy market enough to build $400bn in currency reserves over 15 years, swaggered away on preposterous notion that Nato with barely enough tanks occupy a supermarket car park were about to invade.

International capital markets have all but pulled the plug on Russian companies, catastrophic considering the $700bn in external debt they hold, now left with only the state to cover their debts.

All President Putin has to do is take a deep breath and respect the agreement he structured and withdraw his troops from Ukraine and embraced a peaceful settlement.

@Olegek I don't think you can consider Putin speculating about the future with a serious proposal to join NATO. These things would take a significant amount of time to build up trust among all sides. Also you forget that democracy should be a necessary precondition. If you insist on going it alone then you shouldn't be surprised when you find yourself isolated.

@itsonlyrocknroll OK let's continue it 1 President Putin is actively supporting the Pro-Russian rebels with Russian troops including special forces, military tactical advisers, and heavy artillery though.

It's no Pro-Russian separatists at all . And it's no such country like Ukraine - it's not something like France Modern Ukraine - it's a ex-Soviet province - NO historical, NO ethnic base " Ukraine " was created as a big province of big empire

So it was a hard job to keep all these lands together and a loot of wisdom and respect for different cultures

"Ukrainian " politicians totally failed , and after coup d'etat at 22 February 2014 Russian areas of Ukraine run away One more time - it was NEVER such state as Ukraine - only very small territory near Dnieper To keep together ex - Soviet province ?? Formed from 2 VERY different parts ? Impossible.

2 The human cost is over 4,500 people 35 children, over 10,000 wounded 105 children.

Yes after the putsh the new power was not recognised in south -east of Ukraine ( region with Russian population) So the new rulers send a troops

And civile war started (By pro western politicians by the way)

3 Reuters is reporting Crimea cut off, with no land corridor to Russia, Crimea relies on a ferry service

Yeh, the England has the same problem - totally cut off from continent

4 And at what a cost to the Russian people and economy the Ruble

To stand against West always costed a lot for Russia - it's a destiny

5 All President Putin has to do is take a deep breath and respect the agreement he structured and withdraw his troops from Ukraine and embraced a peaceful settlement.

Immideately AFTER all US political advisers and NATO mercenaries will be withdraw from Ukraine

Ok Olegek, you have the last word, come to London see for yourself, meet Russian expats, no nato nasties in sight just genuine concern for the future. I am not going to convince you that the Russian people have little to fear from a European community that has always held out the hand of freindship.

http://www.rusemb.org.uk/orgnationals/

@scipantheist I don't think you can consider Putin speculating about the future with a serious proposal to join NATO.

He was very serious - it was a question from Putin's side - how we can live side by side on this little planet ?

No answer

These things would take a significant amount of time to build up trust among all sides.

But you can't gain the trust by moving bombers and rockets to Russian borders

Also you forget that democracy should be a necessary precondition. If you insist on going it alone then you shouldn't be surprised when you find yourself isolated.

It's a traditional fault of North - Western Europe (we are better!!!)

We have right color of skin we have the right religion we are civilized (and they are not), we have better political system, our race is better ...

white man's burden ....Eh ?

Looks very strange in 21 th century

@itsonlyrocknroll Ok Olegek, you have the last word, come to London see for yourself, meet Russian expats, no nato nasties in sight

London is one thing ( a lot of Russian criminals hiding there from justice) but in whole - it's not so big problem

in whole system works

But in year 1991 lot of Russian in Baltic state think that Europe means - human rights

Mistake

Until now most of them in Latvia and Estonia has no political rights and treating by government as a second sort people (some sort of new Jews in new Reich)

And both these countrie are respected EU and NATO members

So propaganda is one thing - reality is a little bit different

Why civile war in Ukraine ? - because nobody like to be a second sort citizen !!

It's a democracy my friend ( one man - one voice regardless nationality)

And they fight for human rights also

Inane references to 17th century maps aside, Ukraine is a sovereign, independent state. That was and is Russia's official position. Russia has NO inherent right to a Ukraine as a vassal state, NONE whatsoever. Ukraine has the same right to safe and secure borders as Russia does. Ukraine isn't seeking NATO membership but it would be well within their sovereign right if they wished to do so.

NATO was created exactly to confront Russia (Or may be to confront Aliens or Planet Nibiru )?? It can be explained before 1991 but not after USSR collapsed

NATO was created as an alliance for collective defense. Putin's actions - seizing Crimea, the proxy war against Kiev, Russian military's new aggressive posture - are all evidence that Poland, the Baltic states and many other former Warsaw Pact members were right to join NATO.

But Putin has not invaded !! It's pretty clear that he has. Russian "volunteers"? Yes, like in Crimea with the little green men who weren't Russians until they were receiving awards in the Kremlin? Lie after lie after lie.

If Putin were to go "all in" Russia could certainly capture all of Ukraine. But I don't believe Putin to be that stupid. Even with no military intervention from NATO, scores of Russian soldiers would return home in body bags just like in Chechnya in '94. Russian troops would resort to their usual heavy-handed tactics and end up slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Ukrainians military and civilians. The Russian economy would slide so far down the toilet even Putin's oligarch buddies would want him to go. That's would be just the war without even mentioning the cost of an occupation.

And in Russian Crimea - all are sound and safe !!!

Since Crimea was annexed, Crimean Tatars have been harassed, been warned against "extremist" positions. Some have been exiled. Some have even been tortured and killed. Independent journalists, bloggers, and pro-Ukraine activists likewise threatened and warned to fall in line. Crimean Ukrainians are being forced to choose between becoming Russian citizens or becoming foreigners in their own country. The LGTB community are now subject to the same persecutive "gay propaganda" law. Indeed, all safe and sound as long as you conform.

Russians, would do well to wise up, let go of their paranoia, realize that Putin's leading on their very own "March of Folly".

Thats interesting Olegek Latvia and Estonia, do you feel Russian speakers have been marginalised politically and would welcome intervention from Moscow? Your tone supports President Putin intervention in Ukraine, if you would allow me to speculate, Latvia and Estonia are states that could be considered buffer zones to prevent further Nato influence eastward.

gcbel Inane references to 17th century maps aside, Ukraine is a sovereign, independent state. That was and is Russia's official position.

Alas - Ukraine was never independent state.... It was not like Poland or France It was some area (Ukraine - frome Russian word margin (some sort of wild West) The most funny thing it was more then one Ukraine

Second was on the north borders of Russia. And why it was so easy to include in Russian Empire Ukraine and soo difficult main part of Poland ? Poland has statehood , Ukraine never had.

Ukrainian leaders - Hetmans - never pretend to have totally independent state , sometimes they oriented toward Poland sometimes toward Sweden sometimes toward Ottoman Empire sometimes toward Russia east or west south or north but NEVER independent ... sorry

Russia has NO inherent right to a Ukraine as a vassal state, NONE whatsoever.

One more time - the problem - Ukraine NEVER was independent , not economically not politically not military not industrially So before 2014 almost all Ukrainian goods sold in Russia and only in Russia, high tech products sold only in Russia Ukrainian industry had cooperation only with Russia ..... Ukrainian industry can't live without Russian gas...and so on so on

So you talking about independence ?? They should build independent economy first. Like Poland ... To be really independent you should earn your money. Beggars - can't be independent. Sorry

Ukraine has the same right to safe and secure borders as Russia does. Ukraine isn't seeking NATO membership but it would be well within their sovereign right if they wished to do so.NATO was created as an alliance for collective defense.

Tell me about Serbia - it was a defence ? About Iraq Libia - defence ??........ NATO acts from a position of strength ...NATO come to Afganistan - safe and secure borders ?? .. Ukraine oligarchs have sell everithing in Ukraine , country totally bankrupt - the last stage of sale - to sell " independent country" to NATO for military bases against Russia

Putin's actions - seizing Crimea,

As I said before many times Russia respects Ukraine in its historical borders - there are no gifts in geopolitic (May be USA offers Texas to Mexico ? why not ?)

For 300 years - Crimea is Russian territory with Russian naval bases and Russian population ... If Ukraine want more territory - it's Ukrainian problem (have you ever played in strategy ? - If you whant empire - build it YOUSELF)

the proxy war against Kiev, Russian military's new aggressive posture - are all evidence that Poland, the Baltic states

Tell me why ?? What's a reason to invade in poverty-stricken unstable and totally corrupted country ? Yeh I knew - USA make war just to have a fun, but Russian are totally different

To say the truth USA badly need such war in Eastern Europe

Two world wars make USA world power... So to resolve economic problems USA needs a good war in Europe or in Asia ot both of them

Since Crimea was annexed, Crimean Tatars have been harassed, been warned

Surprise - Russian are not Anglo- Saxon -they have not organising ethnic cleansing but as a rule include different nations in Empire

So Tatars have his own authonomy on Volga and they have serious political influence in Russia (Imagine - Comanches and Apaches have own states in Unaited States- impossible ! - but in Russia such magic works ) To haras Tatars will be political disaster for Russia

But extremists goes to prison - it's normal and civilised (in normal prison and not in Guantanamo)

@itsonlyrocknroll Thats interesting Olegek Latvia and Estonia, do you feel Russian speakers have been marginalised politically and would welcome intervention from Moscow?

By the way - WHY they are second sort people in Civilized Europe ? Really strange And it's not my feeling - biggest part of Russian population in Estonia and Latvia have no political rights - OFFICIALLY - like jews in 3th Reich ( wrong nationality - wrong religion - under police surveillance -better to leave contry )

I insist that every man has political rights regardless nationality or religion and can defend this rights by force of arms... During civile war in USA it was a big problem for South - units of blacks - fighting for freedom ..

(my heartfelt condolences to nice planters)

The Russian govt. have a paranoid view of the world around them in which they consider the world in a zero sum game against the U.S. and the west, which is likely due to the expansion of the EU and NATO plus the feeling of loss of power and influence after the Soviet Union’s collapse. In Ukraine, Russia has attempted to break pieces off of the respective states as a way to create frozen conflicts in those states that will deter EU and NATO expansion. Remember, to join NATO, there cannot be potential conflicts in states that are trying to join NATO. While oil, gas, and influence in the Black Sea are also important, they are minor players in the influencing of Russian foreign policy right now. The Russian arguments for supporting ethnic Russians in the surrounding countries are just a tool for domestic consumption, as almost a complete bogus argument.

The U.S. or the EU can't influence the Russian Govt. to back down as there is too much to lose in the Putin administration’s point of view either domestically where the goverment hold is increasingly weak do to the weakness of the long term economy and the national security perspective where they believe that the loss of Ukraine could influence Russia, and could bring the EU/NATO to their doorsteps. In essence, Putin's goverment fears a total loss of control at home and in the near abroad over the next few years.

Putin is correct.

Russia wants to reassert its power over lands it lost in the wake of the Soviet collapse. Were not for NATO, Russia would be able to do it.

NATO is is Russia's way.

And that is a good thing.

JTDanMan Russia wants to reassert its power over lands it lost in the wake of the Soviet collapse.

You can't return to the yesterday - it's just impossible.

You can't revive British Empire or Holy Roman Empire. Or USSR anyway .

Every politician who talking about such things - just twaddler or daydreamer. You can't change the past.

Russia just offer a fair and clear choice to ex Soviet Republic :

1 If you want to have free access to Russian market if you want to have free access to Russian labor market if you want to have free access to Russian transit possibilities if you want to have cheap resourses from Russia you should be with Russia - and enter in Custom Union with Russia

2 You can refuse (it's your choice) but after that forget about all special possibilities in Russia

It's fair - and nobody want to force anybody to enter in Custom Union

the tragedy of Ukraine is that this country can't live without special access to Russian market , but Ukrainian elite (including Yanukovich) was 100 % pro Western - and now you can see a result

Ukraine firmly made a pro western choice but Ukrainian economy collapsed as a result

Ukraine will be a white Somaly in 2-3 years

Not NATO and not EU or USA want to save Ukrainian economy in this situation - it's tooo expensive

The main goal of sanctions - to force Russia open it's markets for Ukraine - without this Ukraine is as dead as a dodo

Why east regions are not recognised new governement in Kiev ?

Because this is industrial regions with Russian population , oriented on Russian markets

Russian politicians are not so stupid to take under control areas where people hate Russia

But if a Russian regions of Ukraine want to leave failed state Ukraine - who is guilty ?

USSR was collapsed because of endless economic problems and population tired of these problems but USSR was not bankrupt

Ukraine is bankrupt so people voting with their feet

It was two post Soviet countries - Russia and Ukraine (like West Germany and East Germany)

Ukraine lost (like East Germany) - that's all

So Ukraine need money - not tanks - and NATO can't stop economic collapse of this biggest country in Europe