New study reinforces theory COVID emerged at Chinese market

we cannot say with certainty whether the animals (at the market) were infected or not

They can't say with certainty....

But they are certain it didn't come from the Bioweapons research facility that is literally right next to the "wet market" and is known to have done Fauci funded research on gain of function for corona viruses.

Of course if there were to admit the truth, it would open the door to trillions in litigation.

So of course, nobody is at fault except for bats.

We can't sue bats and that's why they are getting the blame.

If Covid19 started at the Wuhan Instituet of Virology, the Chinese government has not allowed a full and transparent investigation by the international community.

If Covid19 started in a Wuhan wet market, China did nothing about these markets since SARS (SARS-CoV-1) was found to have originated in them during the 2002-2004 outbreak.

Yet another “conspiracy theory” slowly making its way toward “true” once no one really politically cares anymore how it started.

There are no conspiracy theories.

Who’s surprised?

Remind me again the location of this specific market as it relates to the laboratory of the virus institute?

is it really close by? Or kinda far away?

Banthu

But they are certain it didn't come from the Bioweapons research facility that is literally right next to the "wet market" and is known to have done Fauci funded research on gain of function for corona viruses.

Bioweapons research facility? Conspiracy theory alert...

Is it like a “researcher” from the virus lab could take a lunch break at that market and might touch something there, close? Or super far?

The scientific community has favored the latter theory, but the controversy has rumbled on.

Yup. But a lot of people like the lab leak theory because it means that someone made a mistake. Not that it really matters.

Is it like a “researcher” from the virus lab could take a lunch break at that market and might touch something there, close? Or super far?

You can easily find both on google maps. To answer your question, they are super far apart. Do you travel 50km in your lunch break?

But they are certain it didn't come from the Bioweapons research facility that is literally right next to the "wet market" and is known to have done Fauci funded research on gain of function for corona viruses.

They are not literally right next to each other. For someone so keen on ‘research’ you don’t seem to have done any.

The only shocking thing is the way the Chinese ignored and hid the Covid problem while letting their people travel all around the globe.

Who does that?!

Why do they do that?!

Well, a mathematician like me would say, both theories, any of the few global biohazard lab and on the other side a very rare zoonosis, have of course each a certain probability and neither can be denied completely when regarded isolated. But now this nicely constructed one, I mean the combined probability for that current explanation trial, a rare zoonosis exactly taking place locally near to the bio lab, sorry, but that's such an extremely low value, I and anyone else with a still clear mind can consider it improbable.

Definitely not the covid research facility right next to the market

They can't say with certainty....

Yes they can, that is the whole point "beyond any reasonable doubt" means there is no rational argument that would say otherwise, unreasonable doubt is of course the kind of thing that can safely be ignored as irrelevant.

But they are certain it didn't come from the Bioweapons research facility that is literally right next to the "wet market" and is known to have done Fauci funded research on gain of function for corona viruses.

Yes, because the evidence proves it so, that is like being suspicious a volcanic eruption happened in the volcano that was just around a big institution dedicated to study these kind of things, you fail to understand the institute was the precisely because it is a place of frequent introduction to humans of diseases from animals.

Of course if there were to admit the truth, it would open the door to trillions in litigation.

The truth is what has been proved scientifically, pretending you know better without even addressing the evidence collected and explained in the article shows more a personal bias than a reason to doubt the experts.

If Covid19 started at the Wuhan Instituet of Virology, the Chinese government has not allowed a full and transparent investigation by the international community.

Because they don't want to recognize the huge mismanagement done by the government, the lack of cooperation does absolutely nothing against the scientific findings that prove the disease was a natural introduction because of close contact with wild animals, the same as every other infection of humans since prehistory.

Yet another “conspiracy theory” slowly making its way toward “true” once no one really politically cares anymore how it started.

On the contrary, being disproved more and more completely with every piece of evidence only makes it less and less justified for people to continue believing in such a debunked conspiracy, it makes no sense to pretend something proved false with more evidence every year magically becomes less false.

Remind me again the location of this specific market as it relates to the laboratory of the virus institute?

You would be surprised to find out where the institutes that produce more and more evidence about Ebola are, and Dengue, and every other zoonosis. Probably you think they are continents away, right?

Is it like a “researcher” from the virus lab could take a lunch break at that market and might touch something there, close? Or super far?

Yet not infect his family, nor the coworkers that are in close contact with him the whole day, not a single contagion, but then it spends a second touching one thing in the market and magically everybody gets infected from that source?

When you depend on increasingly impossible situations to defend a theory it just makes it more clear how illogical this is and how much you need to twist logic to pretend this is how something happened.

Well, a mathematician like me would say, both theories, any of the few global biohazard lab and on the other side a very rare zoonosis, have of course each a certain probability and neither can be denied completely when regarded isolated

Of course they can, statistical analysis could prove there is no realistic possibility of something being true even when ignoring the much more obvious explanation. For a mathematician you seem very quick to ignore what epidemiology can easily prove. What part of the article referenced made you think the conclusions are wrong and the obviously impossible theory still realistically possible when considered in separate?

Definitely not the covid research facility right next to the market

There is no covid research facility right next to the market, this claim is false.

There are two institutes, one close to the market. The rumor I had heard was that carcasses of animals not properly disposed of at the institutes were finding their way for sale at the wet market.

But they are certain it didn't come from the Bioweapons research facility that is literally right next to the "wet market" and is known to have done Fauci funded research on gain of function for corona viruses

This is an outright lie. Please stop regurgitating falsehoods. There was no US funded gain of function research.

Only the US Congress can appropriate funds for a specific purpose and Congress had for many year funded virus research at over 30 similar labs around the world in various nations including China. That funding came out of the original SARS pandemic, hoping the research would identify future dangerous viruses before they could become a pandemic. If you had even a rudimentary understanding of how appropriations work you would know that Dr. Fauci can only spend money Congress appropriates for any given purpose. He could not spend less or spend more than Congress appropriates. If Congress does not appropriate funds for research at a lab in China then Dr. Fauci has no authority to spend that money there. The law governing this is the Missappropriation Act and there are big fines and jail sentences for violating it. The fact is that the US Congress appropriated funds for research conducted by that lab in Wuhan and it was members of Congress who pushed for that research, though it was not for gain of function as you erroneously claim.

I still wonder if Covid was circulating globally before it was identified in Wuhan. In November of 2019 there was a wave of severe respiratory illness that swept our high desert town that in hindsight looked very much like Covid 19. There was no test for Covid back then. I and a co-worker both came down with whatever it was. All the tests came back negative. It wasn't any known flu or pneumonia. The doctors were stumped. But in hindsight my primary care at the time became convinced, based on the surge of patients she treated and their symptoms, that we had a wave of Covid sweep through the region. By the time she came to that conclusion our lab specimens were long gone and it was too late to test for Covid 19, so we may never know.

Btw, that November 2019 respiratory illness was the sickest I have ever been. I had no kidding Covid two years later and it was no where near as bad. I was sick for months and had a hacking dry cough that lingered for almost a year. It was horrible. My co-worker suffered like I did. Just an awful sickness whatever it was.

It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, tastes like a duck, so 99.99% it is a duck. We've known that a wet market in China was likely the root cause. It isn't the first time. Nobody ever said it was caused on purpose, but it was an accident.

Chinese were so afraid that the world would hold them accountable, they blocked, lied, denied, refused, all international support and spent 100x more effort doing those things than helping the world solve the issue.

The actions of the Chinese govt were very telling. We've never heard that they've actually taken steps to prevent the next COVID from happening by having real food/animal safety measures in place and checked daily at the wet markets. Perhaps I missed that part. I know that China temporarily banned the wet markets on 26th Jan 2020. In early April 2020, they were opened again, hopefully with many restrictions.

The wet market was destroyed after the link to the virus was confirmed.

Why was that?

Hiding evidence or stupidity or fear?

The virus’ makeup was examined in the initial days of growing infection and irregular anomalies were found not common in nature.

Even now the fear of another pandemic is being mentioned regularly.

Natural or unnatural, planned or not the effect on humanity is the same-fear and damage.

The wet market was destroyed after the link to the virus was confirmed.

Why was that?

Hiding evidence or stupidity or fear?

The virus’ makeup was examined in the initial days of growing infection and irregular anomalies were found not common in nature.

Even now the fear of another pandemic is being mentioned regularly.

Natural or unnatural, planned or not the effect on humanity is the same-fear and damage.

Unanswered questions, check

Apocalyptic future implications, check

Unclear stance, check.

It would have been easier to link to any evidence you have. Or do you? (twilight zone music)

Yes they can, that is the whole point "beyond any reasonable doubt" means there is no rational argument that would say otherwise, unreasonable doubt is of course the kind of thing that can safely be ignored as irrelevant.

It's just an opinion because other medical and scientific experts in this field theorize it was created in a lab.

There are two institutes, one close to the market. The rumor I had heard was that carcasses of animals not properly disposed of at the institutes were finding their way for sale at the wet market.

Which is meaningless and false, there are NO two institutes, and the virus is transmitted in the air by droplets that obviously dead animals can't produce. This "rumor" could not be more wrong

The wet market was destroyed after the link to the virus was confirmed.

Why was that?

To avoid recognizing the huge mishandling of the outbreak by the chinese government, this is well known and in no way support the fantasy based theories that are completely contradicted by the available evidence.

The virus’ makeup was examined in the initial days of growing infection and irregular anomalies were found not common in nature.

False, people claimed this and they were quickly and easily debunked by actual experts, everything in the sequence of the virus is present in nature in other related strains already isolated.

Even now the fear of another pandemic is being mentioned regularly.

Yes, because there is still contact between wild animals and human society, every pandemic has began this way, warning that the next one will do the same is perfectly logic.

Natural or unnatural, planned or not the effect on humanity is the same-fear and damage.

Promoting false artificial origins have negative effects that don't come from understanding how things actually happened (and have been happened since humans are humans) it distracts from the actual measures that are required to prevent or control new outbreaks by pretending this happened in a laboratory instead of nature.

It's just an opinion because other medical and scientific experts in this field theorize it was created in a lab.

No it is not, it is a scientific study that proves so (together with previous ones that reach the same conclusion). People that theorize things that do not conform with the evidence are simply wrong, specially when they can't even publish a scientific study to validate their opinion in a scientific way.

So not an opinion, a scientific conclusion, as anybody that read the article could easy understand.

This article is just damage control. I'm still waiting for an AFP (or JT) article about all the evidence showing that it did come from the WIV. Such as the grant proposals describing the modification of corona viruses to something exactly like SARS-CoV2. Or Daszak's statements in interviews before the pandemic saying how easy it is to create something exactly like SARS-CoV2, or the US funding that was funneled to the WIV via Daszak's EcoHealth Alliance. Or perhaps the released Emails between Fauci and his team of top US virologists who wrote that the virus really looks engineered, but then just a few days later submitting a paper saying that it must have emerged naturally (without evidence). And not to mention all the structural features of the virus showing that the virus was engineered.

Yep, I'm still waiting for that article here, but I doubt we'll ever see it.

Remind me again the location of this specific market as it relates to the laboratory of the virus institute?

is it really close by? Or kinda far away?

They are not within easy walking distance. But WIV workers take the same trains or subways as the wet market shoppers. The WIV workers who got infected or contaminated likely transmitted the virus to others on the train or at the market. Perhaps they stopped by the market on their way home or on weekends.

I believe the market is where most of the spread occurred in the early days, but it did not start there.

Isn't it interesting that the research facility that had been doing the exact research to engineer such a virus is located in the same city as the market that some say the people first got Cocid-19.

This article is just damage control

When you are unable to refute any of the evidence and methods of the scientific report that proves the laboratory origin is nonsense, that means your criticism of its validity has no value.

None of your "arguments" do anything to refute the clear, unequivocal evidence that proves the animal market was the origin, so an overly complicated impossible explanation becomes irrelevant when a clear, simple one has already been proved and correspond to the evidence available.

Daszak's statements in interviews before the pandemic saying how easy it is to create something exactly like SARS-CoV2

Completely false, the artificial production of a virus of similar characteristics was theorized to happen with very simple and elegant mutations of the spike protein, mutations that instead happened in a chaotic way with extra steps in nature. If anything the previous statements and reports prove SARS-CoV-2 is natural if only because it followed a completely different pathway than was obvious to the experts on coronaviruses.

And not to mention all the structural features of the virus showing that the virus was engineered.

Since there is no such structural feature then there is no point in mentioning them, the false "features" that people pretended the virus had have been all debunked, by either proving they are present in other viruses already isolated or by proving they are not present on SARS-CoV-2.

They are not within easy walking distance. But WIV workers take the same trains or subways as the wet market shoppers. 

And the same trains or subways as everybody else in the city, which makes it statisitically impossible that the outbreak happened in the precise location of an animal market instead of several central hubs of population.

You again are trying terribly primitive arguments against well supported epidemiological studies that are several degrees of sophistication above such basic reasoning.

I believe the market is where most of the spread occurred in the early days, but it did not start there.

And as soon as you can publish your epidemiological analysis of this, including a rebuttal of the actual epidemiological analysis of the studies that prove the market was the origin, then this belief has no value and can be safely ignored.

Isn't it interesting that the research facility that had been doing the exact research to engineer such a virus is located in the same city as the market that some say the people first got Cocid-19.

As interesting as the many institutions of volcanology that are situated in the periphery of active volcanoes. The relationship is there, but the causality is the opposite. Institutions that study specific kinds of pathogens are usually in big population centers close to the places where those pathogens have been found and that have an increased risk of invading human society. It is extremely convenient to have a research institute where people can go, collect samples and bring them back on the same day without involving public transport systems.

When you are unable to refute any of the evidence and methods of the scientific report that proves the laboratory origin is nonsense, that means your criticism of its validity has no value.

What evidence? They are just stating predetermined conclusions based on no evidence.

The lab leak theory was never debunked.

They are not within easy walking distance. But WIV workers take the same trains or subways as the wet market shoppers. 

And the same trains or subways as everybody else in the city, which makes it statisitically impossible that the outbreak happened in the precise location of an animal market instead of several central hubs of population.

But the market is a crowded place where many people of Wuhan (including WIV employees and their family members) go and spend time.

As interesting as the many institutions of volcanology that are situated in the periphery of active volcanoes. The relationship is there, but the causality is the opposite. Institutions that study specific kinds of pathogens are usually in big population centers close to the places where those pathogens have been found and that have an increased risk of invading human society. It is extremely convenient to have a research institute where people can go, collect samples and bring them back on the same day without involving public transport systems.

I don't think the bat caves are all that close to the WIV.

What evidence? They are just stating predetermined conclusions based on no evidence.

You don't even have to read the original scientific report to find out that evidence, this article helpfully describes it

The study published in the Cell journal is based on more than 800 samples collected at Wuhan's Huanan Seafood Market, where wild mammals were also believed to have been for sale.

The samples were collected in January 2020 after the market was shuttered, and were not taken directly from animals or people but from the surfaces of stalls selling wildlife, as well as from drains.

Your problem is that the evidence clearly support a conclusion that you are unable to accept, that does not make the evidence disappear, it only makes your position mistaken.

The lab leak theory was never debunked.

Has been debunked so completely that there is no rational defense of it available. The only "defense" is to claim there is no evidence even when confronted with clear evidence. Denial is not an argument against the theory being debunked, it only proves some people take pride in being irrational.

But the market is a crowded place where many people of Wuhan (including WIV employees and their family members) go and spend time.

As long as is not the only place the theory is still nonsense. Your invalid explanation completely depends on outbreaks happening in every place where a lot of people are, yet it "coincidentally" happened only on the place with a clear epidemiological (and now molecular) link to the pathogen.

Again, you have no epidemiological analysis that disprove the studies published? then your beliefs are not even close to the same level of scientific proof as the evidence you want to refute.

I don't think the bat caves are all that close to the WIV.

One, the disease was not spread directly from bats, so that is irrelevant.

Two, you don't even know which caves or which bats were the reservoir of the virus that mutated into SARS-CoV-2, so you have no way of knowing from where the virus infected the animals that brought the disease to the Wuhan market.

Has been debunked so completely that there is no rational defense of it available.

People that theorize things that do not conform with the evidence are simply wrong, 

Both statements contradicted by the experts in the below article.

One is that the virus leaked from a Wuhan lab that studied related viruses, while the other is that people caught COVID-19 from an infected wild animal being sold at a local market.

*The scientific community has favoured the latter theory, but the controversy has continued.*

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/very-strong-evidence-new-study-links-covid-19-to-wuhan-market/cu98x1oaa

Both statements contradicted by the experts in the below article.

There is no contradiction, there are two explanations offered, one has been proved to correspond with the evidence collected without any problem, the other contradicts the evidence, that means the second one has been debunked.

*The scientific community has favoured the latter theory, but the controversy has continued.**

When the controversy continue based only on ignoring the evidence for political gain then there is no scientific disagreement, evolution is the theory favored by science, but religious fundamentalism makes it so "controversy has continued" (just the same as in this case, not in scientific circles).

It is very easy to confirm this checking any declaration from a respected scientific institution, none says the laboratory leak is an explanation that corresponds with the evidence. No article have been published that refutes the many different reports that conclusively link the outbreak to the animal market.

But the market is a crowded place where many people of Wuhan (including WIV employees and their family members) go and spend time.

As long as is not the only place the theory is still nonsense. Your invalid explanation completely depends on outbreaks happening in every place where a lot of people are, yet it "coincidentally" happened only on the place with a clear epidemiological (and now molecular) link to the pathogen.

It did not only happen in one place. They focused their attention on the wet market because they wanted to blame it on the animals sold there. They initially claimed bats were sold there, now they're saying it was raccoons.

Any other place would make it harder to divert attention away from the WIV.

One important detail to keep in mind:

"From this type of data, which was shared by the Chinese authorities"

Nearly five years after COVID first emerged, the international community has not been able to determine with certainty exactly where the virus came from

And that is, of course, due to the CCP's withholding of information, lies, obfuscation, and refusal -- even to this day -- to allow a full, transparent investigation.

It's yet another example of Xi and the CCP prioritizing their rule, and "saving face," over everything else, even if literally millions die.

stormcrowSep. 20 09:02 am JST

The only shocking thing is the way the Chinese ignored and hid the Covid problem while letting their people travel all around the globe.

Sadly, it's not shocking where the CCP is concerned. They care only about themselves.

Raw BeerToday 10:40 am JST

One important detail to keep in mind:

"From this type of data, which was shared by the Chinese authorities"

Unlike all the other data that they continue to withhold to this day.

It did not only happen in one place. They focused their attention on the wet market because they wanted to blame it on the animals sold there. 

Trying to defend a baseless conspiracy by using another baseless conspiracy is just recognizing you have no defense, what is next? proving that there were many outbreaks using invisible spies erasing information around the world? This is the "turtles all the way down" fallacy of flat earthers.

There is a point where making up convoluting impossible scenarios on top of other impossible scenarios just to say something is possible becomes an argument against your position.

One important detail to keep in mind:

*"From this type of data, which was shared by the Chinese authorities"*

So having no evidence proves the conspiracy, and having evidence also proves the conspiracy?

Again, what part of the evidence and analysis can be used as an argument to say it is falsified or unreliable? the origin being the only possible source is not an argument for this, if the sequences were planted there would be plenty of details that would not correspond with what is expected from a real collection on the site.

So, do you have any of these arguments?