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New Zealand city removes statue of its 'murderous' namesake

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By NICK PERRY

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Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

24 ( +43 / -19 )

Change the name of the city Hamilton, or it will forever have a negative image.

-14 ( +15 / -29 )

I get sick of this. Why not just get/rewrite a plaque explaining that persons historical significance to the city and tell the full story (good and bad) rather than trying to erase them from history.

33 ( +49 / -16 )

Next they will be shooting grenade launchers at Mt. Rushmore.

17 ( +33 / -16 )

Or why not get a plaque that talks about the man and his deeds, but leaves his name off, so that his name can be forgotten to history and his deeds won’t be forgotten?

-21 ( +8 / -29 )

Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

I’m putting forward Buddha and Florence Nightingale.

16 ( +23 / -7 )

no one from the 1860s will ever meet the liberal purity standards of post-2017. Why dont we just judge people for the times they lived in?

Should just erase everything and everyone from history instead of taking years to do it one by one. Then maybe we can add some people back if we check them out and they are reasonably ok enough to get a "purity exemption".

-5 ( +18 / -23 )

Why don’t we just reset the world to year zero and everything that came before can be erased?

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

10 ( +21 / -11 )

Should just erase everything and everyone from history [sic]

This has nothing to do with erasing history, and everything to do with finally getting the complete truth about it.

Nothing is being erased by removing statues of slave traders and racists, except denial and ignorance.

Is the thought that people are finally becoming informed about the complete history of their country and its historical figures, so offensive to you all?

-1 ( +21 / -22 )

It would have been better to put up a statue of Maori adversaries alongside and tell the whole story in stone. Soon everyone will forget Hamilton was a murderer, his association with Tauranga etc.

Erasing all reference of Hamilton is doing him a favour if he is such as bad person.

BTW, if you think it's bad, should see how Chinese goldminers were treated in Arrowtown. At least they've got their history recorded.

14 ( +16 / -2 )

To people who say that these statues are part of our history, taking these statues down will also be part of our history.

12 ( +25 / -13 )

This has nothing to do with erasing history, and everything to do with finally getting the complete truth about it.

If you want the complete truth then you should also do the complete justice and move back to where you came from, UK wherever... Walk the walk, so to speak.

-2 ( +13 / -15 )

Cant wait to see the colosseum demolished, where the romans threw british ( Whites) to the lions, built by slaves.

Or the pyramids bulldozed into the ground also built by slaves . Where is this all going to stop. Utter madness.

You can try to remove all statues and symbols like ISIS did but the fact remains you cannot change history.

This idiotic destructive behavour has gone to the tiny heads of those initiating it.

P.S. Aliens may have built the Pyramids .......

12 ( +32 / -20 )

Taliban did the same thing with cultural history albeit with explosives, these statues commemorate what happened in a time when it was acceptable behaviour. It's not OK now. An explanation of the deads might be appropriate, removal of statues obviously has to be done to avoid social unrest. But that should go hand in hand with education as to why in context of the times they lived in. That's not justifying anything just getting a context.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

Interestingly, while the perpetually offended Left want to remove statues of historical figures they don't like, their adversaries have tended to leave statues like the one of Karl Marx in Hyde Park alone.

Perhaps people of a more Right-leaning and libertarian persuasion would rather Marx's bust serve as a reminder to all the murder, starvation and oppression committed under the ideology he promoted and popularised. He's got the blood of 100,000,000+ on his hands - a few more than Mr Hamilton.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

Interestingly, while the perpetually offended Left want to remove statues of historical figures they don't like, their adversaries have tended to leave statues like the one of Karl Marx in Hyde Park alone.

Marx was a political philosopher. Confderates, or in this case Hamilton, actually killed people. They actually subjugated, raped, robbed, and murdered people. Marx didn't.

-1 ( +17 / -18 )

To people who say that these statues are part of our history, taking these statues down will also be part of our history.

Touche! Perhaps that Saddam Hussein statue the US government pulled down with a faked Iraqi crowd should have been kept for "historical" purposes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/01/the-truth-about-iconic-2003-saddam-statue-toppling/342802/

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

But despots over the last century and into today have picked up his ideology/sophistry of violent revolution, and openly committed their physical and intellectual atrocities in Marx's name as the means to achieve Marx's goal of some sort of socialist or communist utopia.

Granted that Marx wasn't the first to come up with that kind of ideology, he was the most effluential.

And don't forget the statues of Lenin and Mao that are still standing.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

the "complete truth" about people in the 1800s.

As held in judgment by the liberal standard of 2020. What could go wrong?

5 ( +16 / -11 )

2 minute Google search.

Karl Marx had a maid who he abused and didnt pay wages. He had an adulterous affair with her and had a child out of wedlock, who Marx put into foster care.

He often used racial slurs and insulting words to describe the mannerisms or appearance of his opponents in the socialist movement.  

Bye bye statue.

5 ( +15 / -10 )

So this whole movement is actually nothing about the actual people or their lives, just what would supposedly annoy non liberals if they are removed (or given exemptions to stay).

I cant even post the comments from Karl Marx here about Ferdinand Lasalle here. Too many racist overtones, "n" words and anti-Semetic comments. total racist filth. an actual racist, not a made up on the internet one.

Few to no people can sustain a 2 minute Google search based on 2020 liberal standards. But you will exempt or make excuses for anyone you "like", certainly.

3 ( +13 / -10 )

@Kyronstavic:

But despots over the last century and into today have picked up his ideology/sophistry of violent revolution,

As a Conservative/Rightist, do you not find it a bit absurd to blame one person for the actions of another? I mean, there's a bit of a distance between someone calling for a revolution and people going out and murdering and pillaging, but this distinction seems lost to the right.

And don't forget the statues of Lenin and Mao that are still standing.

And? Sure, go ahead and tear them down, but where are they? In China or Russia? If people there want to do that, its no skin off my back.

@Black

So this whole movement is actually nothing about the actual people or their lives, just what would supposedly annoy non liberals if they are removed (or given exemptions to stay).

Did you bother reading the article? From the actual article:

The removal by city authorities came a day after a Maori tribe asked for the statue be taken down and one Maori elder threatened to tear it down himself.

That's what it was about. We don't have to speculate, you can really read why it was taken down.

I cant even post the comments from Karl Marx here about Ferdinand Lasalle here. Too many racist overtones, "n" words and anti-Semetic comments. total racist filth. an actual racist, not a made up on the internet one.

Yeah, you also can't post it here, because its utterly irrelevant and would be deleted.

Few to no people can sustain a 2 minute Google search based on 2020 liberal standards. But you will exempt or make excuses for anyone you "like", certainly.

Again no one is saying this, and I get the feeling that you're not actually interested in having an actual conversation.

-1 ( +9 / -10 )

New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters has called the removal of statues across the country a "wave of idiocy".

"Why do some woke New Zealanders feel the need to mimic mindless actions imported from overseas?" Peters said.

Peters is not happy the movement is gaining pace in New Zealand. "A self-confident country would never succumb to obliterating symbols of their history, whether it be good or bad or simply gone out of fashion," he said.

He also lists "what if" hypothetical questions, including:

• If one doesn't approve of war we pull down our cenotaphs;

• Should we demolish every school that once applied corporal punishment?

• Should Gandhi's statue be thrown in the Wellington harbour because we don't agree?

• Should knighthoods to the undeserving be post-humously withdrawn?

• Do Māori now disown our mixed heritage?

"The woke generation are the equivalent of a person with no long-term memory, stumbling around in the present without any signposts to guide them.

"If a person, like a country, doesn't know where they have come from, they have no way of knowing where they are going."

NOTE WINSTON PETERS is of NZ Maori Descent

He is also The Deputy PM of NZ ,

in this case I agree with what he is saying.

10 ( +16 / -6 )

@ Jimizo

I would not bet on Florence Nightingale. She ran a smear campaign against her popular black rival, Mary Seacole, claiming she used her hospital as a brothel.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

The New Zealand city of Hamilton on Friday removed a bronze statue of the British naval officer for whom it is named — a man who is accused of killing indigenous Maori people in the 1860s.

Good, we should not be honoring murderous tyrants!!!

-5 ( +9 / -14 )

The New Zealand city of Hamilton on Friday removed a bronze statue of the British naval officer for whom it is named — a man who is accused of killing indigenous Maori people in the 1860s.

Good, we should not be honoring murderous tyrants!!!

How come it was OK until this week?

1 ( +15 / -14 )

As a Pakeha (white) person from Hamilton, I can officially say I don't care one bit. Tear it down. Practically no one in Hamilton knows who Hamilton actually was.

Change Hamilton to its Maori name, Kirikiriroa. Flows better :3

1 ( +8 / -7 )

How come it was OK until this week?

Maybe try reading past the first paragraph?

"The removal by city authorities came a day after a Maori tribe asked for the statue be taken down and one Maori elder threatened to tear it down himself."

2 ( +9 / -7 )

How come it was OK until this week?

It wasn't.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

@ Jimizo

I would not bet on Florence Nightingale. She ran a smear campaign against her popular black rival, Mary Seacole, claiming she used her hospital as a brothel

Oh, no! Flo has got to go.

Looks like I’m down to Buddha.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

What is this test you guys keep talking about? I want to take it. Where can it be taken?

0 ( +6 / -6 )

The removal by city authorities came a day after a Maori tribe asked for the statue be taken down and one Maori elder threatened to tear it down himself.

Mayor Paula Southgate said a growing number of people found the statue personally and culturally offensive.

Has the pandemic affected our reason and commonsense? The logic behind and wild application of it (by force) could ruin landscapes around the world.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Who's next ? Sir fancies drake? he was a pirate according to the Spanish, he got up to other things as well, so where do we stop? how far do we go back in history?

5 ( +10 / -5 )

so where do we stop? how far do we go back in history?

Until we stop worshipping tyrants!!!!

-1 ( +11 / -12 )

@Brian Wheway

Yes, Drake too, I'm afraid.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2020-06-10/petition-calls-for-sir-francis-drake-statues-in-tavistock-and-plymouth-to-be-removed-because-of-slavery-links/

3 ( +5 / -2 )

So this whole movement is actually nothing about the actual people or their lives, just what would supposedly annoy non liberals if they are removed (or given exemptions to stay).

‘Liberals’ again? Please stop seeing things in partisan terms. We are not all partisans who swallow the package whole.

Can’t we just debate things on their own merits?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@Hello Kitty 321

You are doing a fine job here.

I’m getting worried that you might unearth something terrible about Gautama. I’ll be left with nothing.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Will the socialist government remove any Maori "folk heros" for killing white people in the early days of New Zealand - when is this rubbish going to end, lets hope Jacinda Adhern loses the next election

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

They should have protected the statue, held a vote on it within a month with 3 options:

Take it down.

Keep it as is.

Modify it to include an extra plaque.

Lots and lots of statues are now being targeted in the UK. The gentleman in the video below (0.20-.40) is great.

https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1271021694698819585

'I am here. I will fight for him.'

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Madness and the people threatening to destroy these statues and artifacts should be charged with destruction of public property, wilful damage, vandalism etc, if they do in fact destroy or defile them.

The authorities should be enforcing the laws in place to stop this stupidity.

Both sides of the story of NZ and every other culture around the world should be portrayed memorialized and shown to enrich history and teach it.

There are a number of memorials and statues commemorating the Maori culture in NZ are these going to be removed too after all they were cannibals who ate their enemy after the battle.

B U T This whole thing is out of control utter madness from the Woke morons who hate everything except them entitled selves.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

As Lenin and Mao shrieked about the crosses on churches: Tear them down, tear them all down.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

You can't change history by removing people from the public consciousness. One man's hero has been and always will be another man's villain. Pulling down statues won't change that... at all. And where will it stop? Will Roman statues be torn down because they enslaved the known world? How about the African kings who kept slaves... and indeed enslaved entire countries? Where do we stop and say: "This is history... learn from it" All of this statue removal... to me it's a bit like vengeance.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Islamic countries have slaves today are the woke ones going to tear them down too?

I very much doubt it, that would be more trouble than they could deal with because it would not be tolerated so why should this be tolerated ?

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Time to rename Washington. And a ton of,other US cities

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Time to rename Washington. And a ton of,other US cities

No, let’s not.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

@ Bjorn Tomention

I am afraid it is not limited to Islamic States. The U.S.A. is thought to have as many as 400,000 people enslaved today and the U.K over 5,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@Jimizo

Actually, Gautama Buddha himself forbade his followers from worshiping statues or portraits of him.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

This is all happening so fast around the world that it's like a shark attack frenzy. What brought it on so suddenly? Why not last year or 10 years ago? Is it really because of the Black Lives Matter movement? Curious.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Cities around the world are taking steps to remove statues....

That isn't true, as far as I know. It's only in the West, right? The Middle East, Asia and other places with long and rich histories of enslaving others, colonialism and genocide seem to be business as usual. I'm waiting for the Mongolians to rip down their many statues of Genghis Khan, who killed more people than anyone else in history.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Cancel culture infects New Zealand. Now, while they are at it, has anyone asked when they will prohibit the name Maori, considering the less-then-humanistic history of the Maori tribe (i.e. with the enslavement of the Moriori etc.)

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

Oh Burning Bush, this is so like HARD, how about not glorifying a-holes who slaughtered people in the name of empire and fame. "Look at me, I just slaughtered a village"-- yeah we can begin with THESE people and honor people like those in Doctors without Borders, for example.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

Oh Burning Bush, this is so like HARD, how about not glorifying a-holes who slaughtered people in the name of empire and fame. "Look at me, I just slaughtered a village"

Actually, it is quite hard. I think it’s useful to name names to clarify things.

A statue of Christopher Columbus was pulled down. What do you think? Deserved?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Taliban did the same thing with cultural history albeit with explosives, these statues commemorate what happened in a time when it was acceptable behaviour. 

Wow, once gain the spin points get repeated by the chattering classes. In what way is a statue honoring a USA traitor and murderer akin to art? Are the right wingers so shallow they actually believed this tripe? If the Vatican was being destroyed, then you have a case. But as it is this is simply the echo factory on fill tilt. It is rather pathetic defending slave owners and comparing them to cultural works of art.

You do not see statues of Hitler in Europe, but I am sure if there were some and they were going to be removed the same ditto head crowd would claim cancel culture as they are now for other mass murderers. I guess you guys know the game is up now. One more murder of a black man was one too many this time it seems. The world has had enough of the KKK and other similar hate organizations defending racism and racists.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

The people who respond to this sort of correction to the historical record (acknowledging that a person who gained wealth or prominence through slaughter or exploiting people is not worthy of being honored) by talking about 'erasing history' almost certainly don't want people to actually know the true history, almost never care a thing about history, and completely ignore that the destruction of the various monuments and statues glorifying Hitler didn't 'erase him from history', but did go a long way to prevent people from pretending he was worthy of being honored.

I suspect that a lot of them are actually upset by the slow chipping away of their illusion that mass slaughter, exploitation at gunpoint, and looting by Whites were honourable acts, because they view that as proof of White supremacy.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

The only logical solution here is that White people all move back to the Caucasus mountains in southern Russia where they originated from because everywhere else is territory gained through invasion and slaughter.

Han Chinese and Arabs have a lot to answer for as well.

Hokkaido... sorry, gained through violent conquest from the Ainu, give it back.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Funny how the Maori never bring up their own murderous past. They were full on cannibals in 1860. What else was Hamilton to do? Get eaten?

8 ( +13 / -5 )

I am afraid it is not limited to Islamic States. The U.S.A. is thought to have as many as 400,000 people enslaved today and the U.K over 5,000.

Does that number include the ones R. Kelly has?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

The removal by city authorities came a day after a Maori tribe asked for the statue be taken down and one Maori elder threatened to tear it down himself.

Are the Maori oppressed or discriminated against here? I didn’t realize. Anyone?

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

I get sick of this. Why not just get/rewrite a plaque explaining that persons historical significance to the city and tell the full story (good and bad) rather than trying to erase them from history.

Statues aren't in themselves history. They're used to mark history, though as they're incapable of telling much of a story by themselves, they're essentially just visual symbols. And there's the problem, as symbolism can be offensive, and opinions can change over time, even if the statue was originally erected by popular demand (and they rarely are) .

This particular statue has a glorious history, by the way, of 7 years. It's not exactly going to tear a gaping hole in people's hearts and memories when it goes. Except possibly for the Gallagher Group, the corporation who for some reason gifted the statue in the first place. You might not know them, so let them introduce themselves in their own words: "We are a global leader in the innovation and marketing of animal management, security, fuel systems and contract manufacturing solutions."

A seven year old statue from a bland corporation. Such achingly poignant heritage, I may need to lie down for a while.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Are the Maori oppressed or discriminated against here? I didn’t realize. Anyone?

Yes. 51% of prisoners in NZ are Maori, yet only 16.5% of the population are Maori. The non-Maori in 2018 were paid 10% higher wages than Maori. (Stats.govt.nz)

So, yes, there appears to be discrimination, as occurs against ethnic minorities in most developed nations. I can understand why the Maori chief wanted to personally tear down this statue.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

The statue should be left standing to remind the Maori of their shame that their warriors couldn’t beat a few hundred Brits who had literally sailed half way around the world to stick a flag in the ground claiming it as British!

1 ( +8 / -7 )

There was an opportunity to teach here and put up a Maori statue beside him and speak to history rather than rip it away. This Hamilton was but one man not a representative of anyone ever named Hamilton after all. Then residents can consider if they want to change the name of their city based on the complete picture. It's not impossible if the civic will is there. The rest is education

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Fighto:

Yes. 51% of prisoners in NZ are Maori, yet only 16.5% of the population are Maori. The non-Maori in 2018 were paid 10% higher wages than Maori. (Stats.govt.nz)

That does not prove discrimination, that just unequal distribution. Lets learn how to read statistics.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Yes. 51% of prisoners in NZ are Maori, yet only 16.5% of the population are Maori. The non-Maori in 2018 were paid 10% higher wages than Maori. (Stats.govt.nz)

So, yes, there appears to be discrimination, as occurs against ethnic minorities in most developed nations. I can understand why the Maori chief wanted to personally tear down this statue.

It’s hard to know if fighto is serious or not. Are you just having a dig at the Kiwis here, cobber?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It seems a lot of people spent their time at home getting worked up about pointless things.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

I tried to find out who Hamilton murdered or what atrocities he commited but it seems like he was just a Royal Navy captain who sailed around the world and was present at various battles. I couldn't find any specific allegations of horrendous misconduct levelled at him. He fell off his ship in Portsmouth harbour and drowned age 41. He was survived by his wife Harriet and his 3 children. If anyone has more information to substantiate the 'murderous arsehole' accusation, I'd be very interested.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

My mistake, that is apparently a different Captain John Hamilton. We are talking about Royal Navy Captain John Fane Charles Hamilton who was killed by the Maori during the New Zealand Wars at the battle of Pukehinahina in 1864.

"Captain Hamilton sprang upon the parapet, and shouting 'follow me, men!' dashed into the fight. That moment was his last. He fell dead, pierced through the brain by a bullet."

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/106720411/the-navy-commander-who-never-set-foot-in-the-city-that-took-his-name

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Actually, Buddha was quite the mysogynist by todays standards. He also discouraged sex and I wont even go near the gay/ trans etc thing. Watch out Daibutsu!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Lewis Hamilton is going to have to change his name as I'm sure he will now be most offended by it.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Actually, Buddha was quite the mysogynist by todays standards. He also discouraged sex and I wont even go near the gay/ trans etc thing. Watch out Daibutsu!

Start a campaign - Throw Siddhartha in the harbour.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Oh, theyll get to Buddha eventually.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Any proof or scientific data (or model) that supports... re-litigating the past... leads to a better today and the future?

Any Social or Political scientist out there... should already have this data available...no?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Good !!..

Cant wait to see the colosseum demolished, where the romans threw british ( Whites) to the lions, built by slaves.

Or the pyramids bulldozed into the ground also built by slaves . Where is this all going to stop. Utter madness.

You can try to remove all statues and symbols like ISIS did but the fact remains you cannot change history.

This idiotic destructive behavour has gone to the tiny heads of those initiating it.

P.S. Aliens may have built the Pyramids .......

What a drama.. Cry me a river !!, hahahahaaaaaa!!!..

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

The statue should be left standing to remind the Maori of their shame that their warriors couldn’t beat a few hundred Brits who had literally sailed half way around the world to stick a flag in the ground claiming it as British!

Yeah, that's not entirely true;

Maori, in Belich's (pre-eminent historian of the New Zealand wars) view, won the Northern War and stalemated the British in the Taranaki War of 1860-61 only to be defeated by 18,000 British troops in the Waikato War of 1863-64.

https://aucklanduniversitypress.co.nz/the-new-zealand-wars-and-the-victorian-interpretation-of-racial-conflict/#:~:text=Maori%2C%20in%20Belich's%20view%2C%20won,Waikato%20War%20of%201863%2D64.

And wikipedia has;

Although outnumbered, the Māori were able to withstand their enemy with techniques that included anti-artillery bunkers and the use of carefully placed pā, or fortified villages, that allowed them to block their enemy's advance and often inflict heavy losses, yet quickly abandon their positions without significant loss.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Wars

2 ( +2 / -0 )

JimizoJune 12  12:39 pm JST

Very curious to see which historical figure is actually going to pass the purity test.

I’m putting forward Buddha and Florence Nightingale.

Neither the Buddha or florence Nightingale murder anyone, and they sure didn't do anything genocidal. In my country a bunch of demonstraters chucked a Christopher Columbus statue into a river. He was no hero, and he wasn't even the first white man to visit the 'New World', that's been well documented. So why does America keep celebrating him and teaching the lies in schools? His original mission was to reach the Orient so just imagine what rotten greedy designs he had for East Asian people had he actually succeeded.

It's time to burn the myths and fables and quit honoring the bastards.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Guess this is learning about history and a sign of human progress. If Hamilton killed 1 Maori person or 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 or more, there shouldn't be a statue of him. Just like there aren't any statues (I think) of Hitler around......

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Enough with all the bickering about Buddha

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

I hear Buddha was no saint.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

It is election time. Have to keep the indigenous folk on your side.

This is just a purely pollical vote grabber.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

This trend could spread to many places were so much injustice was committed.

Soon people will demand accountability for atrocities in WW2.

Hirohito, Yamamoto, Tojo, Yamasita, Homma etc... their statues toppled and names expunged too. This will be a mess. Just saying.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Flavour of the week behaviour.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Churchill not only wanted to preserve the Empire, he was often alarmingly drunk. Winston is toast. FDR? Not only was Elanor his cousin, but Franklin was banging his secretary. He can forget Mt Rushmore. Speaking of which, will it be coming down too?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

I get sick of this. Why not just get/rewrite a plaque explaining that persons historical significance to the city and tell the full story (good and bad) rather than trying to erase them from history.

I'm sick of idiots who don't understand the difference between historical artifacts and information relating to perpetrators of mass murders and crimes against humanity, as opposed to memorials, monuments, and idolizations of such monsters.

The former belonging in museums or textbooks. The latter belonging in the scrap heap.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Actually, it is quite hard. I think it’s useful to name names to clarify things.

A statue of Christopher Columbus was pulled down. What do you think? Deserved?

Yes. Without a doubt.

That wasn't so hard.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I'm sure Japan will have it's share"

1 ( +1 / -0 )

When the Maoris arrived in NZ ( way before the white man) there was already an indigenous population living there. The maoris wiped them out, mercilessly. Its historic fact. So what are we to do now?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Stop the world , I want to get off, its gone stark raving mad.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Let's call this by its real name shall we - visual censorship. Stalin did much the same thing when he attempted to erase figures from Soviet history, including destroying film and altering images he wanted disappeared. It's even more sinister in a context like this where it's claimed to be done for virtuous reasons (think totalitarian governments who censor their citizens' internet because it "isn't compatible with a harmonious society". How immature and dangerous of these people to demand history be erased because it makes them feel bad. That's exactly why you you DON'T erase it.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

When the Maoris arrived in NZ ( way before the white man) there was already an indigenous population living there. The maoris wiped them out, mercilessly. Its historic fact. So what are we to do now?

Not exactly true.

(Researcher Keri Mills) says the story, which was taught in New Zealand schools right up until the 1960s, is not backed up by the evidence.

“There is no archeological evidence of any people in New Zealand before Māori arrived.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018657356/debunking-the-myth-about-the-moriori

1 ( +3 / -2 )

(Researcher Keri Mills) says the story, which was taught in New Zealand schools right up until the 1960s, is not backed up by the evidence.

“There is no archeological evidence of any people in New Zealand before Māori arrived.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018657356/debunking-the-myth-about-the-moriori

Sorry, but Keri Mills has been debunked.

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@Yiasy,

Thanks for your post. Well said.

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@Hello Kitty 321. Actually, Gautama Buddha himself forbade his followers from worshiping statues or portraits of him.

You are confusing the Buddha with Mohammad.

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Hello Kitty 321, To quote Mills, ”So yes, some Māori did kill some Moriori, and the story is an awful one – but to attribute this to all Māori is wrong, and if you find yourself wanting to do it you should question your motives in doing so.”

She has largely been debunked but even she admits to “some maori killing some moriori”. Btw, who is attributing it to all maoris? Does anyone attribute Ghengis Khans mass murder to all mongolians? Or the Soviet mass killings to all russians? Or the nazi holocaust to all germans? Etc etc.

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ohara

Sorry, but Keri Mills has been debunked.

That's interesting. Source please. How about these people?

However, the hypothesis of a racially distinct pre-Māori Moriori people was examined and rejected by a number of historians, anthropologists and ethnologists, among them, anthropologist H.D. Skinner in 1923,[61] ethnologist Roger Duff in the 1940s,[62] and historian and ethnographer Arthur Thomson in 1959,[63] as well as Michael King in Moriori: A People Rediscovered in 2000 and James Belich[64] and K.R. Howe in Te Ara: The Encyclopedia of New Zealand.[62

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori

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Wikipedia. Say no more.

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Don't dodge. Prove your claim.

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Personally, I'm not a fan of statues so couldn't care less if all of them are removed. However, whilst people spend time arguing and fighting over statues of long dead people I wonder if the issues of climate change, nuclear weapons, destruction of the rain forests and oceans of plastic are being forgotten. Therefore, I would argue that whilst equal rights and equality are also a current and pressing issue the statues are a huge distraction. Protesters should also consider that removing statues they consider offensive actually contributes to the burying of history. I would suggest that such statutes should be given a plaque explaining why they were first erected and why we now consider these characters to be infamous people. Or put the statues in a museum where they can be viewed in a historical context. Meanwhile, people really need to start protesting as equally strongly about present day racial abuse and inequality. And not forget that without fully protecting Earth's systems there won't many of us left alive to argue about statues anyway.

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I'm not really sure how to fully understand and comprehend what is happening around the World at the moment. I am getting concerned that even ancient cultures and it's heritage and it's statues, temples and ruins will be attacked and demolished. As if I am correct, most, if not, all ancient cultures around the World used conquered nations and its people as slaves in one form or another.

 

I would dread to see (like ISIS did), smash and blow up ancient statues and architecture. I just worry where does this end?

 

I feel the Black Lives Matter content is very sound, but its delivery is wrong in some areas of protesting needs thought.

 

Clear heads prevail.

Stay well, and keep well.

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Moving from a central location is fine. The statue still has value as a teaching tool for a museum. When enlightened people come back into power, a new display can be setup if there is political will and funding.

if you want a monument to last beyond the current political changes, chip it into a huge rock face.

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I see a lot of words like 'liberal' and 'purity', so whatever. Time to feel what minorities have been feeling for many years. Can't express how much I am LOVING this!

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Lewis Hamilton is going to have to change his name as I'm sure he will now be most offended by it.

I don't know Lewis Hamilton's family tree, but it is unlikely that most Black people don't already know whether their last names originally come from their blood ancestors, or were forced upon them by their ancestors' owners when they were stolen and enslaved.

Millions of people carry a slave name, ignorant of their history because it was stolen from their ancestors, along with their freedom.

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obvious, indeed, people seethe from anger so wisdom is remove peacefully the statues of controversy.

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US is seething of Trump's lambasts on slaves, after George death his death became a super martyr than Martin Luther king jr. world over Geoge is remembered, might be june 1st might become international morning day against slavery all over perhaps.

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indeed city fathers are wise to remove the statute and thus avoid protests, that is sagacity i would call

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and the Maoris shouldn't be left out! Look what they did to the Morioris in the Chatham Islands!

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If a person is judged not by the good things they did but by the bad, almost nobody should have a statue or be memorialized.

If a statue is ever made of Floyd, will the violence against women groups order it taken down because of the trauma he inflicted on the pregnant woman against whose stomach he held a gun and robbed?

My point is simply that many people who achieved great things or were martyred late in life were flawed.

Or just do away with statues......

I've never met a perfect person yet.

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Ghandi's statue will have to come down too, if you are worried about racist comments.

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Gaijinpapa:

You do realize that they are at that, already, do you:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53025407

Gandhi, Churchill, the Dalai Lhama.... they will all have to go. I wonder what is left after the Cultural Revolutionaries had their way. We are living in a time of insanity.

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This comment thread is so full of slippery flop fallacy reactionaries that I'm surprised anyone is still standing.

I really do not care if they pull down a statue to a mass murderer. And even if I judge him based on the standards of the time, murder was not OK. Statues themselves are not part of the history - the history is the history - a statue celebrates someone. No one has an unblemished past, but we can judge them based on what they did.

I will draw the line at any attempt to rename Ladysmith in South Africa, however. I am distantly related to the founder, who named it after his wife.

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I don't know Lewis Hamilton's family tree, but it is unlikely that most Black people don't already know whether their last names originally come from their blood ancestors, or were forced upon them by their ancestors' owners when they were stolen and enslaved.

@Maria - Lewis Hamilton's father is black (his mother is white), so I would imagine that with that surname, he is of Caribbean heritage, so most likely of slave stock. Slaves did not have surnames typically, but upon emancipation, were free to choose their own.

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carpslidyJune 12  10:53 pm JST

It seems a lot of people spent their time at home getting worked up about pointless things.

Unfortunately immersing yourself in the internet and news too much can have that effect.

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