New Zealand COVID protest convoy jams streets near parliament

I walked past my local vaccination centre today and it was jam packed of people getting their boosters. The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

"I'm actually vaccinated but I'm against mandating people to be vaccinated," he told AFP. "I think it's disgraceful, forcing vaccination on people who don't want it."

I agree with Stu Main. My placard would say "Please open the borders; you're hurting families."

The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated

I cannot verify the veracity of the above statement, but (anecdotal evidence to follow) the majority of Kiwis I have met over the decades have been reasonable people, and I think the vast majority of reasonable people want to be vaccinated.

Also, given New Zealander's history with farm animals, I also think most people there are aware that most medicines appropriate for farm animals are probably NOT appropriate for humans.

@WilliB

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

Deaths in Denmark from covid-19 3,909 verses Deaths in New Zealand from covid-19 53

I think even though Stubborn it is the better strategy.

I walked past my local vaccination centre today and it was jam packed of people getting their boosters. The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.

was going to say more or less the same thing - is was few hundred folks, nothing major at all.

"I'm actually vaccinated but I'm against mandating people to be vaccinated," he told AFP. "I think it's disgraceful, forcing vaccination on people who don't want it."

This New Zealand understands how Rights work.

It's not that 51% can vote away the rights of 49%.

It's that 99% will respect the rights of 1% no matter what.

Basic human rights should apply to all New Zealanders.

Really tired of people saying it's taking away their "rights". You have a freedom of choice to not get vaccinated. That doesn't excuse you from the consequences of your choices. Flying to other countries, that is a privilege, if you exercise your personal right to not get vaccinated, they can exercise their right to not allow you onto their planes. Governments shouldn't mandate every sector, but for things like military, police, and federal jobs, they have every right to require vaccinations. If your job requires you to get vaccinated and you don't, and you get fired. That isn't someone taking your rights.

Don't confuse freedom of choice from freedom from consequences.

Jake....

Bingo!

2020hindsights

The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

It is not about "getting vaccinated". It is about FORCING the a medical and restrictions on people.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.

There are similar protests in Austria, Holland, Germany, France and many other countries, only the corporate media ignores them largely. And plenty of the protesters are vaccinated, as you can see if you e.g. go to interview streams from Ottawa.

Bronco

It's not that 51% can vote away the rights of 49%.

It's that 99% will respect the rights of 1% no matter what.

Exactly. The foundation of a modern democracy. Otherwise you have tyranny. This is not an old issue, it is has been discussed thoroughly. Did so many people forget?

they can exercise their right to not allow you onto their planes.

I agree, that airlines have the right to set their own policies.

But government's should not force airlines to set those policies.

If an airline wishes to allow unvaccinated people to take a flight, why can't they?

New Zealand is not China.

People and business owners should have the right to decide for themselves.

Don't know the setup in New Zealand when it comes to responsiiblity, but in Ottawa the mob is calling for the PM to resign but it's the provincial premiere Doug Ford who holds responsibility for the health mandates. There's literally nothing that can happen in Ottawa. Also we just had an election 5 months ago, so asking the PM to resign when the rest of the country hates the protest is just laughable. Also during this time the leader of the opposition who supported the protesters was dumped. Their new leader had pizza with the insurgents.

Meanwhile a 21 year old public servant, ie: not the chief of police and not the premiere, successfully won a court injunction to stop the incessent honking.

Ford is a right wing politician so seems to be courting the superfreak protester vote, but thousands of Ontarians get the vaccine everyday who he is also courting. It's a mess.

Hopefull NZ can avoid the Ottawa example and have a more Toronto one, where they cut off the routes and had police in key locations.

i dont agree that simply riding an airplane is a "privilege" that a government can deny me.

James

Deaths in Denmark from covid-19 3,909 verses Deaths in New Zealand from covid-19 53

I think even though Stubborn it is the better strategy.

You do not give the timeframe, you ignore that DK also largely closed down for Delta, you do not include the cost (including deaths) from shutdowns, and you do not mention that starting from now, with Omicron, the figures will be identical.

It is too simple to make a simplistic claim from one selected figure.

Jake,

Governments shouldn't mandate every sector, but for things like military, police, and federal jobs, they have every right to require vaccinations. If your job requires you to get vaccinated and you don't, and you get fired. That isn't someone taking your rights.

I agree with the first, because then it's a choice. If you want that job, you need to be vaccinated for certain things. But I'm not sure you can then take someone's job from them if they don't want to undertake a medical procedure. It's not like mandating a uniform, or a way to address customers.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she had no intention of entering discussions with convoy participants, arguing that the majority of New Zealanders had shown their support for the government's vaccination program.

Period.

But I'm not sure you can then take someone's job from them if they don't want to undertake a medical procedure. It's not like mandating a uniform, or a way to address customers.

If the 10 second medical procedure has proven safe (it has) and effective (it has) at preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting seriously sick or dying, the question is why wouldn't you do it? It's not enough to say "cos it's my right" when dealing with a communicable disease. You have to come up with a better reason than that.

Reckless

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she had no intention of entering discussions with convoy participants, arguing that the majority of New Zealanders had shown their support for the government's vaccination program.

Here we go. The tyranny of the majority. So if a majority decides everyone should be injected with a substance, the minority has to be forced to?

Incidentally, Allan Dershovits last year made headlines by saying that the government has the "right to plunge needle in your arm". But in an interesting follow-up discussion with Robert Barnes, he clarified that for that to apply, several important exceptional conditions have to be met. Which are not met in the current situation.

From the images I saw, the protest didn't look peaceful at all. I saw a guy wearing a red hat which was clearly meant represent a MAGA hat, and an upside down New Zealand flag which was quite offensive and unpatriotic. I also could see someone urinating in public. I didn't realize Kiwis were so racist and violent.

nonu6976

If the 10 second medical procedure has proven safe (it has)

If it has "proven safe", give it official FDA approval, and not a temporary Emergency Use Authorization, excempting the manufacturers from any liability. (And no, before you mention the talking point, the available Pfizer does NOT have FDA approval.)

and effective (it has) at preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting seriously sick or dying, the question is why wouldn't you do it?

...preventing for a few months, after which efficacy drops and you need the next "booster". And the difference in hospitalization is a relevant argument for high-risk groups, not for indiscriminate injection of an entire population.

If the 10 second medical procedure has proven safe (it has) and effective (it has) at preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting seriously sick or dying, the question is why wouldn't you do it? It's not enough to say "cos it's my right" when dealing with a communicable disease. You have to come up with a better reason than that.

It's also proven to have serious side effects and health problems for a small amount of people.

There's no sliding scale. Can you threaten someone with termination if they don't get a certain cosmetic surgery?

If it has "proven safe", give it official FDA approval, and not a temporary Emergency Use Authorization, excempting the manufacturers from any liability. (And no, before you mention the talking point, the available Pfizer does NOT have FDA approval.)

so you think the vaccine is unsafe? After hundreds of millions (actually probably well over 1 billion) of people getting vaccinated and 99.999% of people suffering no or little side effects that the vaccine is not safe? I can just imagine if the FDA gave the vaccines gave full approval tomorrow, you would say that they can't be trusted, or that they were rushing - no matter what they do they can't win with some folks.

...preventing for a few months, after which efficacy drops and you need the next "booster". And the difference in hospitalization is a relevant argument for high-risk groups, not for indiscriminate injection of an entire population.

efficacy from dying and getting seriously ill has proven to be very long lasting - I think you are referring to efficacy from catching the virus which does wane over time

It's also proven to have serious side effects and health problems for a small amount of people.

yes, about 0.00001 percent. Let's look at Japan as an example - last time I heard there were about 5 cases reported of death that may or may not be linked to the vaccine. Let's be generous though and say the number is 100 even though it's not. Thats less than 0.0001 percent. More people as a percentage die from the flu vaccine each yeah.

There's no sliding scale. Can you threaten someone with termination if they don't get a certain cosmetic surgery?

what?

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions.

and Denmark has 660/million deaths from covid

NZ 10

Japan Australia Korea Singapore all around 150~200

clear to see which countries actually care if their populations live or die

A better reason than a human right to choose what happens to my body? If you can mandate vaccination status, then can you mandate marital status?

Can you threaten someone with termination if they don't get a certain cosmetic surgery?

what?

Body autonomy - the right to control what is done, or not done, to your body, for instance, medical procedures. For a government to mandate (and "get a vaccine or you're fired" is not a choice) a vaccine is a violation of that. Employers are forbidden from hiring/firing on the basis of many things. Race, gender, marital status, religion, and so on. Why not vaccination status. And "what?" is not an answer.

yes, about 0.00001 percent. 

Can you guarantee that won't be me?

11 Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment

Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.

www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html#DLM225509

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, 1990.

Can you guarantee that won't be me?

LOL, why do I get the feeling a 0.00001 percent chance of something happening would be perfectly acceptable to you for anything else, just not the vaccine. Let's not forget you are already vaccinated against things like chicken pox and the measles - your parents had to otherwise you would not be allowed into a public school. Are you angry them as well?

nonu6976

so you think the vaccine is unsafe? After hundreds of millions (actually probably well over 1 billion) of people getting vaccinated and 99.999% of people suffering no or little side effects that the vaccine is not safe?

I did not opine on safety. I pointed out that there is still no FDA approval for the existing vaccines, and that the EUA excempts manufacturers from any liability..

efficacy from dying and getting seriously ill has proven to be very long lasting - I think you are referring to efficacy from catching the virus which does wane over time

Incorrect. The current vaccines do NOT prevent catching the virus, their only efficacy is to lower the risk of hospitalizations. Which even our local pro-vaxxers have been saying here.

Insurrectionists!! Domestic terrorists!! Probably racists too!!

*11 **Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment*

Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.

www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html#DLM225509

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, 1990.

Yes, this is true, but it doesn't mean there are not consequences. For instance, you have to be vaccinated for certain jobs like the police or armed forces, or when working with children. You can chose not to, but then you can't join then those professions. According to you, this should not be allowed.

LOL, why do I get the feeling a 0.00001 percent chance of something happening would be perfectly acceptable to you for anything else, just not the vaccine.

"Can you guarantee that won't be me?" was the question. From your deflections, I see that the answer is no.

Let's not forget you are already vaccinated against things like chicken pox and the measles - your parents had to otherwise you would not be allowed into a public school. Are you angry them as well?

Actually, it turns out I was never vaccinated against measles. I got that vaccination about 2 years ago actually, when I found out. And no one had to force me to do it as I'm old enough to make my own decisions. I'm vaccinated against covid, too. And I am looking forward to getting my booster. None of that refutes the fact that mandating a vaccine is a violation of a human right.

Incorrect. The current vaccines do NOT prevent catching the virus, their only efficacy is to lower the risk of hospitalizations. Which even our local pro-vaxxers have been saying here.

I never said they did prevent catching the virus - they certain increase your chances of not catching it - this has been proved many times not only in studies but with hospitals mostly fully of unvaccinated people, especially when delta was the dominant variant.

nonu,

You can chose not to, but then you can't join then those professions. According to you, this should not be allowed.

Nope. I said, way up thread, that I agree that vaccine requirements for STARTING a job are fine. That's a choice. Firing someone for refusing a medical treatment, a violation of human rights as we've established, is not.

And I am looking forward to getting my booster. None of that refutes the fact that mandating a vaccine is a violation of a human right.

yes, forget that people live in societies, and because of that, have responsibilities to others around them. It's all about my rights - if I don't want to protect myself against a communicable disease I won't and if I cause others sickness, thats just bad luck, and if I get sick, I still fully expect the support of the medical system for something that was entirely preventable. It's my right!

ok I'm done.

It’s because of the statements made by Trudeau and yourself that makes the masses resist even more.

And social media warriors and trolls do what they can, sometimes for their own government, to fan flames in other nations.

yes, forget that people live in societies, and because of that, have responsibilities to others around them. It's all about my rights - if I don't want to protect myself against a communicable disease I won't and if I cause others sickness, thats just bad luck, and if I get sick, I still fully expect the support of the medical system for something that was entirely preventable. It's my right!

I get all those arguments. Believe me, I wish everyone had gotten vaccinated months ago and we'd had stopped covid in its tracks. I just don't believe people can be forced to undergo medical treatments. People are responsible enough to make their own decisions. Thanks for the discussion.

Thanks for the discussion.

thank you too.

yes, forget that people live in societies, and because of that, have responsibilities to others around them. 

Before this pandemic, it was perfectly normal to go to work sick with the flu, even play a basketball game (MJ) You didn't even have your temperature checked when going to the onsen, or to get on a plane. You could virtually give an entire plane load of people the flu and it was just tough luck for them.

Most of the protestors, whether it be New Zealand, Australia or Canada are actually vaccinated.

This isn't about vaccination.

This is about mandates and the violation of basic human rights.

End all covid-related mandates and restrictions.

The vast majority of Kiwis are fully vaxxed and getting on with living life. Lowest death rate in the developed world, life more normal than anywhere else for 2 years, economy ticking along nicely.

This is just a small rabble of dropkicks. Ignore them.

> It's also proven to have serious side effects and health problems for a small amount of people.

There's no sliding scale. Can you threaten someone with termination if they don't get a certain cosmetic surgery?

Seat belts can cause injury and even death too. Should we make them voluntary too?

The point is for the vast majority of people vaccines are safe and potentially life-saving.

The big difference being seat belts will only save you, vaccines will potentially save those around you too.

prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she had no intention of entering discussions with convoy participants, arguing that the majority of New Zealanders had shown their support for the government's vaccination program.

Seems that Jacinda is same blood type like "canadian hero" Trudeau...?

highly likely yes!

no discussion needed?

only before election when need get votes?

and than all of you just shut up and follow my "rules"?

nice "democracy" isnt it Jacinda?

wondering if these kind of people lives in own "world" out of reality on streets?

Note that nobody in NZ is forced to get vaccinated against anything, nobody at all.

It is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose to not get vaccinated those who are vaccinated need to be protected from you so don't be surprised if you don't get to keep your job or can't get into certain places.

It's not about you and what you want or don't want, it's about protecting people, especially the elderly from a deadly virus.

Get over yourselves already!

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

Denmark has a covid death toll over 73 times higher than that of New Zealand. I think Denmark would be better off talking to New Zealand on how to save it's citizens lives. If it cares about them that is.

Do the other passengers/crew on that flight have rights too, or does your right to do whatever the hell you please override them?

Sure, but they dont have right to act in a discriminatory manner towards others,. either

Mine is a right, theirs is a preference.

Do you have a right to not ride a plane with a person who has a cold? or has some other visible illness?

Nope. you dont get to decide that. If it bothers YOU, then YOU can choose to not ride.

You could virtually give an entire plane load of people the flu and it was just tough luck for them.

thing is the flu is only about 1/10 as fatal as covid, and far less infectious.

letsberealistic

Note that nobody in NZ is forced to get vaccinated against anything, nobody at all.

It is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose to not get vaccinated those who are vaccinated need to be protected from you so don't be surprised if you don't get to keep your job or can't get into certain places.

That is not force?? By the same token, the CCP social credit system is not force, either? Do you realize that with sort of excuse, you can justy almost all human rights violations in dictatorships?

Why are English speaking countries all ruled by such condescending elite snobs? What happened to freedom?

Peter14

Denmark has a covid death toll over 73 times higher than that of New Zealand. I think Denmark would be better off talking to New Zealand on how to save it's citizens lives. If it cares about them that is.

This has been addressed several times here already, no? Again:

A) DK has land borders, unlike NZ.

B) We are talking about the current Omicron, not the past Delta. The only figures that count are starting now, as DK has acknowledged Omicron can not be stopped, while NZ and mainland China still insist it can.

wtfjapan

Previous Covid variants were more deadly than flu but not Omicron.

 who are vaccinated need to be protected from you

I see, the vaccine only works if society is split in half.

Why do you need to be kept away from healthy uninfected people?

Every human is carring viruses and bacteria that would be lethal to any immunocompromised person, that will never change.

You're essentially criminalizing normal human biology.

all of this constant narrative would work if the vaccine stopped transmission.

Would I fly on a plane or eat together with or even live with someone who was unvaccinated if the vaccine stopped COVID?

No of course not.

But because the vaccine doesnt stop COVID transmission, I can catch it just as easily from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated one. So I dont feel the need to be discriminatory to one subset of people.

It is entirely voluntary.

Yeah, right. Get a vaccine or lose your job. Maybe you can afford to lose your job making a stand on principle. Not everyone can.

NZ and mainland China still insist (Omicron) can.

No, NZ abandoned 'zero-covid' months ago. They are currently averaging over 100 new cases a day, have been for a few weeks, are still open, and currently planning to reopen the border.

Freedom is defined as the absence of coercion and constraint.

Supreme Court of Canada ruling, which I think is the same across the entire Commonwealth.

What definition of freedom are you using!

Flying to other countries, that is a privilege

Nope. Freedom of movement is a human right if you ask me. I thought passports were ridiculous before the pandemic.

I’m fully vaccinated but against mandates too.

The fully vaccinated don’t have much to personally worry about, and if they do, it’s the same as risking your life driving a car.

People need to keep some sense of proportion and perspective.

Interesting how fast the “people have the right to live wherever they want, cross any border, there are no illegal people!”posters have changed positions now.

there is no “right” to a Covid free plane because there is no way to create that.

Few idiots fighting hard to make corona virus stay around forever!

BroncoToday  04:42 pm JST

Freedom is defined as the absence of coercion and constraint.

Supreme Court of Canada ruling, which I think is the same across the entire Commonwealth.

What definition of freedom are you using!

The definition of 'freedom' is actually "the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants." The NZ government has not taken away the rights of anyone to act, speak and think how they want. They are free to take the vaccine or not.

Freedom of movement is a human right if you ask me. I thought passports were ridiculous before the pandemic.

Nonsense.

So you think anyone has a "human right" to enter NZ, or Japan, too, in the middle of a global pandemic?

Each sovereign nation sets their own rules as to who can and cannot enter, and when. If they dont wish for you or I to enter their nation, for whatever reason, tough luck.

RiskyMosaicToday  04:29 pm JST

It is entirely voluntary.

Yeah, right. Get a vaccine or lose your job. Maybe you can afford to lose your job making a stand on principle. Not everyone can.

There are certain requirements for a job such as an experience, qualifications and while there is a deadly virus around, a vaccine.

What's the problem with a vaccine anyway?!

BroncoToday  04:22 pm JST

 who are vaccinated need to be protected from you

I see, the vaccine only works if society is split in half.

Why do you need to be kept away from healthy uninfected people?

Every human is carring viruses and bacteria that would be lethal to any immunocompromised person, that will never change.

You're essentially criminalizing normal human biology.

We don't have a worldwide deadly virus pandemic to deal with every day. These are exceptional circumstances. Adapt or suffer. Those who choose not to get vaccinated are a threat to healthy people (especially the elderly including my parents and probably yours).

There are certain requirements for a job such as an experience, qualifications and while there is a deadly virus around, a vaccine.

What do vaccines have to do with job performance?

What's the problem with a vaccine anyway?!

I'm not against vaccines. I'm against human rights violations, which I consider forcing vaccines on people to be. And yes, jab or job is 'forcing.'

Those who choose not to get vaccinated are a threat to healthy people (especially the elderly including my parents and probably yours).

"the get vaccinated or you will kill Grandma!" story was debunked as soon as the narrative changed from vaccinated people cant get or give COVID to well, yeah actually vaccinated people can transmit too.

Interesting how fast the “people have the right to live wherever they want, cross any border, there are no illegal people!”posters have changed positions now.

Woah it's almost like "criminalising people for crossing an arbitrary border invented by people over a century ago" and "we should prevent the spread of disease" are totally different things.

The NZ government has not taken away the rights of anyone to act, speak and think how they want

Sure they have.

"I don't want a vaccine."

"You're fired!"

Sure they have.

"I don't want a vaccine."

"You're fired!"

"I hate that my decisions have consequences" - the party of personal responsibility.

I hate that my decisions have consequences" - the party of personal responsibility.

The party of people with mouths to feed.

The party of people with mouths to feed.

Woah, sounds like if you want to feed your children and all you have to do is take a completely free, totally safe jab, that's the thing to do.

Too bad you don't care about those mouths enough to take 15 minutes out of your day to go to the clinic.

Woah, sounds like if you want to feed your children and all you have to do is take a completely free, totally safe jab, that's the thing to do.

Too bad you don't care about those mouths enough to take 15 minutes out of your day to go to the clinic.

What a simplistic view.

What a simplistic view.

The facts are simple.

Vaccines are good. If you want to starve your family because you don't want to taint your pure blood or whatever, that's on you.

Vaccines are good. If you want to starve your family because you don't want to taint your pure blood or whatever, that's on you.

Quite the strawman.

I have the right to refuse any medical treatment. That's the fact.

I have the right to refuse any medical treatment. That's the fact.

No-one is disagreeing with this.

But that decision has consequences. Which you don't like. Because the idea that actions have consequences is repulsive to the party of personal responsibility.

But that decision has consequences

What decision? It's a mandate.

If you refuse this vaccine, you are fired.

If you refuse to convert to Islam, you're fired.

What's the difference?

Rights are either all protected, or none are.

I'm fully vaccinated but oppose mandates and forced vaccinations. They go against the ethics of the medical profession, are no longer necessary and paint targets on the backs of those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons by stirring up hatred against a minority.

Express sister

So you're opposed to the trucker protests against vaccine mandates for crossing the border?

I am for controlled borders and against vaccine mandates. What is the confusion? Seems to me you are mixing issues.

The NZ government has not taken away the rights of anyone to act,

I want to enter this restaurant. The restaurant wants my business. I cant enter due to a government mandate because I am not vaccinated.

liberals call this "consequences of not being vaccinated". I call it taking away my rights.

Even more so when vaccinated people with COVID are inside. having used their vaccine passport yet also having COVID at the same time.

If you refuse drug tests, you can be fired, in some places.

not if it wasnt a condition of your employment when you joined.

Supposed your office decides you need to take a suppository every day or you are fired.

People clogging up the toilets and they tired of paying plumbers.

Would you think that is ok, that your firing is just a "consequence" of your refusal?

I would be questioning why the office thinks they can force me to do that.