New Zealand COVID protest convoy jams streets near parliament

If you refuse drug tests, you can be fired, in some places.

not if it wasnt a condition of your employment when you joined.

Supposed your office decides you need to take a suppository every day or you are fired.

People clogging up the toilets and they tired of paying plumbers.

Would you think that is ok, that your firing is just a "consequence" of your refusal?

I would be questioning why the office thinks they can force me to do that.

The NZ government has not taken away the rights of anyone to act,

I want to enter this restaurant. The restaurant wants my business. I cant enter due to a government mandate because I am not vaccinated.

liberals call this "consequences of not being vaccinated". I call it taking away my rights.

Even more so when vaccinated people with COVID are inside. having used their vaccine passport yet also having COVID at the same time.

Express sister

So you're opposed to the trucker protests against vaccine mandates for crossing the border?

I am for controlled borders and against vaccine mandates. What is the confusion? Seems to me you are mixing issues.

I'm fully vaccinated but oppose mandates and forced vaccinations. They go against the ethics of the medical profession, are no longer necessary and paint targets on the backs of those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons by stirring up hatred against a minority.

I have the right to refuse any medical treatment. That's the fact.

No-one is disagreeing with this.

But that decision has consequences. Which you don't like. Because the idea that actions have consequences is repulsive to the party of personal responsibility.

What a simplistic view.

The facts are simple.

Vaccines are good. If you want to starve your family because you don't want to taint your pure blood or whatever, that's on you.

The party of people with mouths to feed.

Woah, sounds like if you want to feed your children and all you have to do is take a completely free, totally safe jab, that's the thing to do.

Too bad you don't care about those mouths enough to take 15 minutes out of your day to go to the clinic.

Sure they have.

"I don't want a vaccine."

"You're fired!"

"I hate that my decisions have consequences" - the party of personal responsibility.

Interesting how fast the “people have the right to live wherever they want, cross any border, there are no illegal people!”posters have changed positions now.

Woah it's almost like "criminalising people for crossing an arbitrary border invented by people over a century ago" and "we should prevent the spread of disease" are totally different things.

Those who choose not to get vaccinated are a threat to healthy people (especially the elderly including my parents and probably yours).

"the get vaccinated or you will kill Grandma!" story was debunked as soon as the narrative changed from vaccinated people cant get or give COVID to well, yeah actually vaccinated people can transmit too.

Freedom of movement is a human right if you ask me. I thought passports were ridiculous before the pandemic.

Nonsense.

So you think anyone has a "human right" to enter NZ, or Japan, too, in the middle of a global pandemic?

Each sovereign nation sets their own rules as to who can and cannot enter, and when. If they dont wish for you or I to enter their nation, for whatever reason, tough luck.

Few idiots fighting hard to make corona virus stay around forever!

Interesting how fast the “people have the right to live wherever they want, cross any border, there are no illegal people!”posters have changed positions now.

there is no “right” to a Covid free plane because there is no way to create that.

Flying to other countries, that is a privilege

Nope. Freedom of movement is a human right if you ask me. I thought passports were ridiculous before the pandemic.

I’m fully vaccinated but against mandates too.

The fully vaccinated don’t have much to personally worry about, and if they do, it’s the same as risking your life driving a car.

People need to keep some sense of proportion and perspective.

all of this constant narrative would work if the vaccine stopped transmission.

Would I fly on a plane or eat together with or even live with someone who was unvaccinated if the vaccine stopped COVID?

No of course not.

But because the vaccine doesnt stop COVID transmission, I can catch it just as easily from a vaccinated person as an unvaccinated one. So I dont feel the need to be discriminatory to one subset of people.

wtfjapan

Previous Covid variants were more deadly than flu but not Omicron.

Peter14

Denmark has a covid death toll over 73 times higher than that of New Zealand. I think Denmark would be better off talking to New Zealand on how to save it's citizens lives. If it cares about them that is.

This has been addressed several times here already, no? Again:

A) DK has land borders, unlike NZ.

B) We are talking about the current Omicron, not the past Delta. The only figures that count are starting now, as DK has acknowledged Omicron can not be stopped, while NZ and mainland China still insist it can.

Why are English speaking countries all ruled by such condescending elite snobs? What happened to freedom?

letsberealistic

Note that nobody in NZ is forced to get vaccinated against anything, nobody at all.

It is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose to not get vaccinated those who are vaccinated need to be protected from you so don't be surprised if you don't get to keep your job or can't get into certain places.

That is not force?? By the same token, the CCP social credit system is not force, either? Do you realize that with sort of excuse, you can justy almost all human rights violations in dictatorships?

You could virtually give an entire plane load of people the flu and it was just tough luck for them.

thing is the flu is only about 1/10 as fatal as covid, and far less infectious.

Do the other passengers/crew on that flight have rights too, or does your right to do whatever the hell you please override them?

Sure, but they dont have right to act in a discriminatory manner towards others,. either

Mine is a right, theirs is a preference.

Do you have a right to not ride a plane with a person who has a cold? or has some other visible illness?

Nope. you dont get to decide that. If it bothers YOU, then YOU can choose to not ride.

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

Denmark has a covid death toll over 73 times higher than that of New Zealand. I think Denmark would be better off talking to New Zealand on how to save it's citizens lives. If it cares about them that is.

The vast majority of Kiwis are fully vaxxed and getting on with living life. Lowest death rate in the developed world, life more normal than anywhere else for 2 years, economy ticking along nicely.

This is just a small rabble of dropkicks. Ignore them.

yes, forget that people live in societies, and because of that, have responsibilities to others around them. 

Before this pandemic, it was perfectly normal to go to work sick with the flu, even play a basketball game (MJ) You didn't even have your temperature checked when going to the onsen, or to get on a plane. You could virtually give an entire plane load of people the flu and it was just tough luck for them.

Thanks for the discussion.

thank you too.

It’s because of the statements made by Trudeau and yourself that makes the masses resist even more.

And social media warriors and trolls do what they can, sometimes for their own government, to fan flames in other nations.

And I am looking forward to getting my booster. None of that refutes the fact that mandating a vaccine is a violation of a human right.

yes, forget that people live in societies, and because of that, have responsibilities to others around them. It's all about my rights - if I don't want to protect myself against a communicable disease I won't and if I cause others sickness, thats just bad luck, and if I get sick, I still fully expect the support of the medical system for something that was entirely preventable. It's my right!

ok I'm done.

Incorrect. The current vaccines do NOT prevent catching the virus, their only efficacy is to lower the risk of hospitalizations. Which even our local pro-vaxxers have been saying here.

I never said they did prevent catching the virus - they certain increase your chances of not catching it - this has been proved many times not only in studies but with hospitals mostly fully of unvaccinated people, especially when delta was the dominant variant.

*11 **Right to refuse to undergo medical treatment*

Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment.

www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html#DLM225509

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, 1990.

Yes, this is true, but it doesn't mean there are not consequences. For instance, you have to be vaccinated for certain jobs like the police or armed forces, or when working with children. You can chose not to, but then you can't join then those professions. According to you, this should not be allowed.

Insurrectionists!! Domestic terrorists!! Probably racists too!!

nonu6976

so you think the vaccine is unsafe? After hundreds of millions (actually probably well over 1 billion) of people getting vaccinated and 99.999% of people suffering no or little side effects that the vaccine is not safe?

I did not opine on safety. I pointed out that there is still no FDA approval for the existing vaccines, and that the EUA excempts manufacturers from any liability..

efficacy from dying and getting seriously ill has proven to be very long lasting - I think you are referring to efficacy from catching the virus which does wane over time

Incorrect. The current vaccines do NOT prevent catching the virus, their only efficacy is to lower the risk of hospitalizations. Which even our local pro-vaxxers have been saying here.

Can you guarantee that won't be me?

LOL, why do I get the feeling a 0.00001 percent chance of something happening would be perfectly acceptable to you for anything else, just not the vaccine. Let's not forget you are already vaccinated against things like chicken pox and the measles - your parents had to otherwise you would not be allowed into a public school. Are you angry them as well?

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions.

and Denmark has 660/million deaths from covid

NZ 10

Japan Australia Korea Singapore all around 150~200

clear to see which countries actually care if their populations live or die

It's also proven to have serious side effects and health problems for a small amount of people.

yes, about 0.00001 percent. Let's look at Japan as an example - last time I heard there were about 5 cases reported of death that may or may not be linked to the vaccine. Let's be generous though and say the number is 100 even though it's not. Thats less than 0.0001 percent. More people as a percentage die from the flu vaccine each yeah.

There's no sliding scale. Can you threaten someone with termination if they don't get a certain cosmetic surgery?

what?

If it has "proven safe", give it official FDA approval, and not a temporary Emergency Use Authorization, excempting the manufacturers from any liability. (And no, before you mention the talking point, the available Pfizer does NOT have FDA approval.)

so you think the vaccine is unsafe? After hundreds of millions (actually probably well over 1 billion) of people getting vaccinated and 99.999% of people suffering no or little side effects that the vaccine is not safe? I can just imagine if the FDA gave the vaccines gave full approval tomorrow, you would say that they can't be trusted, or that they were rushing - no matter what they do they can't win with some folks.

...preventing for a few months, after which efficacy drops and you need the next "booster". And the difference in hospitalization is a relevant argument for high-risk groups, not for indiscriminate injection of an entire population.

efficacy from dying and getting seriously ill has proven to be very long lasting - I think you are referring to efficacy from catching the virus which does wane over time

nonu6976

If the 10 second medical procedure has proven safe (it has)

If it has "proven safe", give it official FDA approval, and not a temporary Emergency Use Authorization, excempting the manufacturers from any liability. (And no, before you mention the talking point, the available Pfizer does NOT have FDA approval.)

and effective (it has) at preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting seriously sick or dying, the question is why wouldn't you do it?

...preventing for a few months, after which efficacy drops and you need the next "booster". And the difference in hospitalization is a relevant argument for high-risk groups, not for indiscriminate injection of an entire population.

From the images I saw, the protest didn't look peaceful at all. I saw a guy wearing a red hat which was clearly meant represent a MAGA hat, and an upside down New Zealand flag which was quite offensive and unpatriotic. I also could see someone urinating in public. I didn't realize Kiwis were so racist and violent.

Reckless

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she had no intention of entering discussions with convoy participants, arguing that the majority of New Zealanders had shown their support for the government's vaccination program.

Here we go. The tyranny of the majority. So if a majority decides everyone should be injected with a substance, the minority has to be forced to?

Incidentally, Allan Dershovits last year made headlines by saying that the government has the "right to plunge needle in your arm". But in an interesting follow-up discussion with Robert Barnes, he clarified that for that to apply, several important exceptional conditions have to be met. Which are not met in the current situation.

But I'm not sure you can then take someone's job from them if they don't want to undertake a medical procedure. It's not like mandating a uniform, or a way to address customers.

If the 10 second medical procedure has proven safe (it has) and effective (it has) at preventing hundreds of thousands of people getting seriously sick or dying, the question is why wouldn't you do it? It's not enough to say "cos it's my right" when dealing with a communicable disease. You have to come up with a better reason than that.

James

Deaths in Denmark from covid-19 3,909 verses Deaths in New Zealand from covid-19 53

I think even though Stubborn it is the better strategy.

You do not give the timeframe, you ignore that DK also largely closed down for Delta, you do not include the cost (including deaths) from shutdowns, and you do not mention that starting from now, with Omicron, the figures will be identical.

It is too simple to make a simplistic claim from one selected figure.

i dont agree that simply riding an airplane is a "privilege" that a government can deny me.

Don't know the setup in New Zealand when it comes to responsiiblity, but in Ottawa the mob is calling for the PM to resign but it's the provincial premiere Doug Ford who holds responsibility for the health mandates. There's literally nothing that can happen in Ottawa. Also we just had an election 5 months ago, so asking the PM to resign when the rest of the country hates the protest is just laughable. Also during this time the leader of the opposition who supported the protesters was dumped. Their new leader had pizza with the insurgents.

Meanwhile a 21 year old public servant, ie: not the chief of police and not the premiere, successfully won a court injunction to stop the incessent honking.

Ford is a right wing politician so seems to be courting the superfreak protester vote, but thousands of Ontarians get the vaccine everyday who he is also courting. It's a mess.

Hopefull NZ can avoid the Ottawa example and have a more Toronto one, where they cut off the routes and had police in key locations.

Bronco

It's not that 51% can vote away the rights of 49%.

It's that 99% will respect the rights of 1% no matter what.

Exactly. The foundation of a modern democracy. Otherwise you have tyranny. This is not an old issue, it is has been discussed thoroughly. Did so many people forget?

2020hindsights

The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

It is not about "getting vaccinated". It is about FORCING the a medical and restrictions on people.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.

There are similar protests in Austria, Holland, Germany, France and many other countries, only the corporate media ignores them largely. And plenty of the protesters are vaccinated, as you can see if you e.g. go to interview streams from Ottawa.

Jake....

Bingo!

Really tired of people saying it's taking away their "rights". You have a freedom of choice to not get vaccinated. That doesn't excuse you from the consequences of your choices. Flying to other countries, that is a privilege, if you exercise your personal right to not get vaccinated, they can exercise their right to not allow you onto their planes. Governments shouldn't mandate every sector, but for things like military, police, and federal jobs, they have every right to require vaccinations. If your job requires you to get vaccinated and you don't, and you get fired. That isn't someone taking your rights.

Don't confuse freedom of choice from freedom from consequences.

I walked past my local vaccination centre today and it was jam packed of people getting their boosters. The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.

was going to say more or less the same thing - is was few hundred folks, nothing major at all.

@WilliB

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

Deaths in Denmark from covid-19 3,909 verses Deaths in New Zealand from covid-19 53

I think even though Stubborn it is the better strategy.

The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated

I cannot verify the veracity of the above statement, but (anecdotal evidence to follow) the majority of Kiwis I have met over the decades have been reasonable people, and I think the vast majority of reasonable people want to be vaccinated.

Also, given New Zealander's history with farm animals, I also think most people there are aware that most medicines appropriate for farm animals are probably NOT appropriate for humans.

Denmark, with the same population size as NZ plus several borders, has lifted all Covid restrictions. The NZ health authorities might want to talk to them and re-think their stubborn one-way approach.

I walked past my local vaccination centre today and it was jam packed of people getting their boosters. The vast majority of NZers want to be vaccinated.

This protest is from a tiny minority of NZers doing a copycat of Canada.