No clemency for Snowden, top U.S. lawmakers say

“He had an opportunity, if what he was was a whistleblower to pick up the phone and call the House Intelligence Committee..."

So one of our law makers thinks justice should be dependent on timing. It does not get too much more self-righteous than that.

Nor should they! If he were a REAL man, a REAL hero, he would and face the charges. But criminals never want to face the truth, so I understand him wanting to flee. He could have gone to Switzerland or Sweden or some other semi-neutral country. Why Russia or China of all the countries?

“If he wants to come back and own up to the responsibility of the fact that he took and stole information, he violated his oath, he disclosed classified information.

Based on that, the man is a fugitive residing with a country that not are best friend, shall we say.

Nor should they! If he were a REAL man, a REAL hero, he would and face the charges.

And wind up like Bradley Manning? That would not be heroism. It would be stupidity.

Snowden almost ended up like Manning, in a cage and getting cattle-prodded.

I wonder if Snowden's placement in Russia was no accident.

"“He had an opportunity, if what he was was a whistleblower to pick up the phone and call the House Intelligence Committee, the Senate Intelligence Committee and say, ‘Look, I have some information you ought to see,’” Feinstein said." and what would they have done with that information, "suppress it" and slap a gagging order on Snowden so that information would never have been exposed. Thats how government works, always has done and will never change. Whistleblowers should be given full protection of the law, when exposing abuse made by public servants, because, thats all what governments are , paid public servants, elected or hired by the tax payers of this world. Accountability and transparency are two words that politicians or bureaucrats don't understand. So a law protecting wistle blowers would be one way to to achieving some accountability and transparency in the murky world of government. The business world isn't much better, but a whistle blower in the business comunity doesn't face the same threats as the likes of Snowden, Manning and Assange. I only wish more whistle blowers would come forward,especially in the Banking community.

If he'd picked up the phone to call the House Intelligence Committee or the Senate Intelligence Committee he probably would never have even made it out of the building before being picked up, put in a black van and "disappeared" to one of the CIA's numerous and unlisted facilities world-wide.

The CIA makes the Gestapo look like Santa Claus.

@control

And wind up like Bradley Manning? That would not be heroism. It would be stupidity.

Well, for what Manning did, that act can be counted as stupidity, to put it mildly.

@homeland

I wonder if Snowden's placement in Russia was no accident.

I ask myself that same exact question, the whole thing with this situation doesn't add up. But in all seriousness, I wouldn't be surprised.

@minello

Can't really argue with that. Good point. If Snowden do exactly that! I wouldn't have had a problem with that! but how people so loosely call him a whistle blower, do not fully understand the full definition of the meaning.

@frungy

If he'd picked up the phone to call the House Intelligence Committee or the Senate Intelligence Committee he probably would never have even made it out of the building before being picked up, put in a black van and "disappeared" to one of the CIA's numerous and unlisted facilities world-wide.

The CIA makes the Gestapo look like Santa Claus.

You are seriously, seriously watching tooooo many holly weird movies. Lol

I have some level of respect for Snowden. Zero for Manning and Assange. At least Snowden has kept his releases to the topic at hand. He didn't release things that have nothing to do with his cause. Bradley/Assange released everything they could get their hands on and hurt a lot of innocent people along the way for no reason other than their ego.

That being said, there's no perfect answer. You can't just go and pardon everyone who releases classified information, especially if those people do it in countries that obviously are against what they say they believe in. But there needs to be a way for people to be able to go to others in government if they think something is wrong. I doubt Snowden really did everything he could to see if that was possible, but if there is a way it needs to be made known.

Frungy: The CIA makes the Gestapo look like Santa Claus.

What do you say such emotional things? I'm sure some people agree with your support of Snowden, but they don't want to be seen standing next to some unstable hothead. You're a liability for the side you're fighting for. You should practice more self control.

and now he’s done this enormous disservice to our country

The people who have done an enormous disservice to America, indeed who are killing America, are those who are turning it into a police state with scary unaccountable secret services spying on ordinary citizens.

It is those who have spent unimaginable sums of money on buying ridiculous unnecessary weapons to fight pointless wars and have bankrupted America in the process.

It is those who have tried to demonize protestors or demonstrators as traitors to the state.

It is those greedy banksters who have screwed ordinary people for their own gain.

It is those who...

this list could go on and on..

Google worries me more than the US government.

Of COURSE they won't grant clemency -- look how badly they've been embarrassed! Snowden is a hero... he doesn't need nor should he want to go back to an ungrateful, spying, lying nation like the US. Let them keep pushing him to release more secrets.

Once again; " Hang 'me HIGH". If this guy did this sort of thing from an active War Zone ( Afghanistan ), he DEFINITELY would be facing the Death Penalty.

bass4funkNov. 04, 2013 - 11:32AM JST u are seriously, seriously watching tooooo many holly weird movies. Lol

No, I just read the 5 newspapers every day, and have done so for the last 20 years. You should try it, you might actually get some real information. Try a search for "extraordinary rendition" ... which is kidnapping, but they like to use new fancy words to cover up crimes, like calling torture "enhanced interrogation" in the hopes that the double-digit IQ bunch will get all confused and give up... surprisingly this tactic has proven extraordinarily effective in the U.S.

So-called "black sites" have been confirmed in several countries, and even include prison ships in international waters, in order to avoid granting detainees even the most basic human rights.

It is not at all inconceivable that Snowden would have ended up in one of the facilities if the CIA had intercepted him before he came to the attention of the media, and he wouldn't be the first.

SuperLibNov. 04, 2013 - 11:42AM JST

Frungy: The CIA makes the Gestapo look like Santa Claus.

What do you say such emotional things? I'm sure some people agree with your support of Snowden, but they don't want to be seen standing next to some unstable hothead. You're a liability for the side you're fighting for. You should practice more self control.

Feeling like I'm cutting a little too close to the truth there SuperLib? Excellent, I'll keep it up. The CIA has been responsible for the murder by drone of tens of thousands of people, for the kidnapping of an unknown number of others, and for torture, murder, and other crimes against humanity. They also provided the "intelligence" that led to the death of hundreds of thousands in Iraq, and have a spying operation that dwarfs even the wildest dreams of the Gestapo. The Gestapo wouldn't have dreamed of being able to spy on the private telephone calls of leaders across the world. Frankly if you compare the Gestapo with the CIA then the Gestapo come out looking quite moderate.

If the guy is a hero to his people, then let him go back to his people.

lostrune2: "If the guy is a hero to his people, then let him go back to his people."

The problem is the government would not allow it. So then, are the government representing the people? or just spying on them? ("for protection").

@smith

Of COURSE they won't grant clemency -- look how badly they've been embarrassed! Snowden is a hero... he doesn't need nor should he want to go back to an ungrateful, spying, lying nation like the US. Let them keep pushing him to release more secrets.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Heroes don't run. Even a criminal that can turn himself in, deserves a smidge of respect, but a coward running away to hide amongst our enemies, gets nothing but condemnation.

@superlib

Google worries me more than the US government.

I think you're right

@frungy

No, I just read the 5 newspapers every day, and have done so for the last 20 years. You should try it, you might actually get some real information.

I'm a freelance journalist, I really on fact based information.

Try a search for "extraordinary rendition" ... which is kidnapping, but they like to use new fancy words to cover up crimes, like calling torture "enhanced interrogation" in the hopes that the double-digit IQ bunch will get all confused and give up... surprisingly this tactic has proven extraordinarily effective in the U.S.

If Snowden would have been subjected to that, then the only person he could blame would have been himself for opening up his mouth in and trying to take on the government, he wouldn't be in this mess, he only has himself to blame for his problems.

So-called "black sites" have been confirmed in several countries, and even include prison ships in international waters, in order to avoid granting detainees even the most basic human rights.

And you think a TERRORIST or jihadist when they capture westerner would give them basic human rights? Does "Nick Berg" ring any bells to you?

It is not at all inconceivable that Snowden would have ended up in one of the facilities if the CIA had intercepted him before he came to the attention of the media, and he wouldn't be the first.

And rightfully so, if it involves national security, why on Earth would they let some school drop out to leave with that kind of information? But in over 20 years of covering political news, I've never really heard of real concrete evidence or substantiated facts that there is truth in that, you are just speculating. Most likely he would have been sitting in a nice comfy prison and thoroughly interrogated, that I do believe would have/should have happened.

Snowden may be an ass but he did expose alot of wrongdoing.This will not happene in the future. Look at Abe and his boys recently maikng a law that would put people behind bars for a much longer timethan at present for exposing secrets...exposing secrets, whistle blowing etc they are just all the same thing.Very Chinese of the US govt..But at least those politicians feel toug when they posture in front of the mirror..I wish i was as cool as them.

Just what options were open to Snowden.

First of all, he was party to some of the most despicable, cowardly actions any government has ever inflicted on its - and other - people.

What did he do with this knowledge? What could he do?

He could have gone through "official channels" to blow the whistle on the NSA spying on US citizens and the politicians and diplomats of other countries.

He could have, but he didn't.

What might have happened, had he done this?

The whole thing would have been hushed up. The reports would have been filed in the "round file" and Snowden would have been given psychiatric "help" as he is obviously insane.

There again, he might have gotten his reports published somehow and remained in the U.S.A. to take what comes.

Then what would have happened?

Perhaps a tragic car accident, such as happened to James Hastings:

http://rt.com/usa/hastings-dies-crash-suspicions-020/

Or, he might have been put under lock and key, in solitary confinement like Mannings was, for several years, while the government very, very slowly got its case together.

Snowden risked a lot to tell the public the truth. The truth that the "lawmakers" and those who pull their strings would prefer to keep hidden.

I reiterate, we need many, many more Snowdens.

bass4funk: "Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Heroes don't run."

They do when they're government are as bad or worse than the people they claim to be protecting are as bad as the communists they say they are fighting against. Speaking of which:

"...but a coward running away to hide amongst our enemies"

So Russia is the enemy? You still think they're the 'red menace'?

Look in the mirror, my friend, and you'll see the enemy. The true coward is the person who cannot admit they are defending what they claim to be fighting.

Just what options were open to Snowden.

Well Snowden acted because his morals were offended, so the options were:

Divulge the wrongdoing to the media Duplicate and arrange for a number of journalists to have access to the information so that it couldn't be snatched from one place and hushed up Stand and fight his case in court with overwhelming public support behind him

Snowden blew the public support because running off to Russia made many question his true morals. It's hardly the first place that springs to mind when you think of free speech and human rights.

@ControlFreak

So one of our law makers thinks justice should be dependent on timing. It does not get too much more self-righteous than that.

Only if you came to this conclusion without using a brain. What she really said was he should of come to the Senate Intelligence Committee with his information instead of screwing over the US and like all anarchist, trying to bring the government down by turning it's friend against it. I'm sure there are enough Republicans that would of taken it up just to get back at the president and he would of been clear. Instead he used the thinking of a child and did what he did and now he's in the situation that he's in. He is naive to think he can ever come back to the US and so he should accept the fact that his home is gone and his new home is in Russia. Seems like a contradictory move but people do stupid things when they don't fully think their plan through, which he clearly didn't...

bass4funkNov. 04, 2013 - 04:39PM JST I'm a freelance journalist, I really on fact based information.

Yet you believed that the CIA couldn't make someone disappear.

If Snowden would have been subjected to that, then the only person he could blame would have been himself for opening up his mouth in and trying to take on the government, he wouldn't be in this mess, he only has himself to blame for his problems.

"Taking on" corruption and human rights abuses is the moral duty of every human being. To blame someone for doing the morally correct thing shows an absence of moral fiber.

And you think a TERRORIST or jihadist when they capture westerner would give them basic human rights? Does "Nick Berg" ring any bells to you?

I see this logic, that one person being inhumane automatically entitles the other party to act in an equally inhumane fashion. It smacks of the logic of a 5 year old, and is morally indefensible.

And rightfully so, if it involves national security, why on Earth would they let some school drop out to leave with that kind of information? But in over 20 years of covering political news, I've never really heard of real concrete evidence or substantiated facts that there is truth in that, you are just speculating. Most likely he would have been sitting in a nice comfy prison and thoroughly interrogated, that I do believe would have/should have happened.

... except that it would be a national security matter.

-4 Good Bad

bass4funkNov. 04, 2013 - 04:39PM JST

@smith

Of COURSE they won't grant clemency -- look how badly they've been embarrassed! Snowden is a hero... he doesn't need nor should he want to go back to an ungrateful, spying, lying nation like the US. Let them keep pushing him to release more secrets.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Heroes don't run. Even a criminal that can turn himself in, deserves a smidge of respect, but a coward running away to hide amongst our enemies, gets nothing but condemnation.

@superlib

Google worries me more than the US government.

I think you're right

@frungy

No, I just read the 5 newspapers every day, and have done so for the last 20 years. You should try it, you might actually get some real information.

I'm a freelance journalist, I really on fact based information.

Try a search for "extraordinary rendition" ... which is kidnapping, but they like to use new fancy words to cover up crimes, like calling torture "enhanced interrogation" in the hopes that the double-digit IQ bunch will get all confused and give up... surprisingly this tactic has proven extraordinarily effective in the U.S.

If Snowden would have been subjected to that, then the only person he could blame would have been himself for opening up his mouth in and trying to take on the government, he wouldn't be in this mess, he only has himself to blame for his problems.

So-called "black sites" have been confirmed in several countries, and even include prison ships in international waters, in order to avoid granting detainees even the most basic human rights.

And you think a TERRORIST or jihadist when they capture westerner would give them basic human rights? Does "Nick Berg" ring any bells to you?

It is not at all inconceivable that Snowden would have ended up in one of the facilities if the CIA had intercepted him before he came to the attention of the media, and he wouldn't be the first.

And rightfully so, if it involves national security, why on Earth would they let some school drop out to leave with that kind of information? But in over 20 years of covering political news, I've never really heard of real concrete evidence or substantiated facts that there is truth in that, you are just speculating. Most likely he would have been sitting in a nice comfy prison and thoroughly interrogated, that I do believe would have/should have happened.

But it would then be a matter of "national security", not disclosed to the media and not subject to any legal process. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. There are many instances of the U.S. government picking up people and holding them for protracted periods before releasing them, almost always because the media got wind of the situation. These are the instances we know of. How many more times they managed to abduct someone without media attention? We don't know, but the pattern of behavior is a matter of fact, not speculation.

@bass, I truly wonder how one could rationally support and defend the incredulous actions of the Empire as some do. Snowden has done little more than expose the US Empire's dirty dealings which most suspected but lacked evidence. Now that a sliver of evidence has been provided, the Empire-loving devotees are livid. It's rather comical.

Snowden has done the global citizens a huge service in his minor revelations. Swallow the little, yet bitter, pill like an honest man.

Once again, the US bashing crowd found a place to gather, but overlooking the other thread about European spies engaging in the same acts, coming on here because it's easier to bash the US, but sure, I'll bite.

@bertie

Just what options were open to Snowden.

NOT the route he took which is breaking the law, not to mention playing around with national security.

First of all, he was party to some of the most despicable, cowardly actions any government has ever inflicted on its - and other - people.

That's YOUR personal opinion.

What did he do with this knowledge? What could he do?

First of all abide by company rules and if he felt compelled to let the world know, he should have followed the proper protocols gone through official channels as to where and to whom should get the intel, lawyered up, problem solved. But Nooooo.....

He could have gone through "official channels" to blow the whistle on the NSA spying on US citizens and the politicians and diplomats of other countries.

He could have, but he didn't.

So now, we should feel sorry for a thief and a criminal?

What might have happened, had he done this?

The way he did it. Arrested, interrogated, prosecuted and sent to prison, preferably life.

The whole thing would have been hushed up. The reports would have been filed in the "round file" and Snowden would have been given psychiatric "help" as he is obviously insane.

I highly doubt it. Remember, Enron. Sorry, NOT buying it.

There again, he might have gotten his reports published somehow and remained in the U.S.A. to take what comes.

If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen, he's not that dumb, he knew this would create a firestorm. He made his bed, whatever NOW comes his way, Snowden is responsible for the outcome, NO ONE else!

Then what would have happened?

Perhaps a tragic car accident, such as happened to James Hastings:

Again, leave the conspiracy theories to "Oliver Stone."

http://rt.com/usa/hastings-dies-crash-suspicions-020/

Or, he might have been put under lock and key, in solitary confinement like Mannings was, for several years, while the government very, very slowly got its case together.

I have absolutely NO problem with that.

Snowden risked a lot to tell the public the truth. The truth that the "lawmakers" and those who pull their strings would prefer to keep hidden.

Not to mention risking the lives of many covert and undercover field agents not only in the US, but our allies, all over the world, a lot of innocent people could and probably were killed because of this scums actions.

I reiterate, we need many, many more Snowdens.

I reiterate, we need to prosecute people to the fullest extent of the law (treason perhaps) and incarcerate people like Snowden or anyone that thinks they can steal government documents and do with it whatever and however they wish.

@smith

They do when they're government are as bad or worse than the people they claim to be protecting are as bad as the communists they say they are fighting against. Speaking of which:

If you think that, that is your choice, but the US is a noble nation, sure, we have our faults, no one is perfect, but generally speaking, we are more giving and generous than any other nation.

So Russia is the enemy? You still think they're the 'red menace'?

Smith, what is wrong with you. You think the Russians are opening up the doors to their nation because it's out of the kindness of their hearts?? There is NO way, if you or I would go to Russia and beg for Asylum that they would let you in. Most Russians don't even like Foreigners. The ONLY reason why they let Snowden in and gave him Carte Blanc was because of what he had in his possession, otherwise, he'd be just a stupid dropout American with an Ax to grind and they would have laughed at him and turned him away. Again, keep kidding yourself they are a friend. Friend, my...

Look in the mirror, my friend, and you'll see the enemy. The true coward is the person who cannot admit they are defending what they claim to be fighting.

Actually, I was thinking quite the opposite, which is what I would tell Snowden.

@frungy

Yet you believed that the CIA couldn't make someone disappear.

I never said, it wasn't possible, I was saying that there is NO real concrete evidence of it. Anything of course, is possible, but generally speaking, No.

"Taking on" corruption and human rights abuses is the moral duty of every human being. To blame someone for doing the morally correct thing shows an absence of moral fiber.

Yeah, but he didn't do that, had he gave specific info about the things NSA are doing, that's one thing, but he gave the Chinese and Russians EVERYTHING, from our missile defense to some of the weapons we use, to some stealth technology and on and on which has NOTHING to do with spying. The guy is trash, he just wanted to destroy his country pure and simple, by revealing everything we have, how we use it, how we deal militarily with our enemies and allies. I have a cousin that is out in the field, my kin, I worry about and this piece of.... could possibly put his life in jeopardy? He doesn't care, the only thing he cares about is is ego and destroying the US, that's all and the Russians and Chinese are happy to oblige. So I don't feel anything for this trash, I am sure, he will get what he truly deserves, I firmly believe it, I hope for it.

I see this logic, that one person being inhumane automatically entitles the other party to act in an equally inhumane fashion. It smacks of the logic of a 5 year old, and is morally indefensible.

Because you think like most liberals think, this is the reason why Assad is still in power, because of liberal leadership. It's called: weakness.

But it would then be a matter of "national security", not disclosed to the media and not subject to any legal process. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

He still as an American citizen would have had due process and a right an an attorney.

There are many instances of the U.S. government picking up people and holding them for protracted periods before releasing them, almost always because the media got wind of the situation.

Sorry, but you make like the US is China or Russia and that they (the US) constantly trumps up charges and detains people without ANY rights to legal council and that just isn't true.

These are the instances we know of. How many more times they managed to abduct someone without media attention? We don't know, but the pattern of behavior is a matter of fact, not speculation.

Again, stop watching too much TV and stop reading the liberal sites. Move on, Think Progress and the Daily Kos. I read them sometimes and the garbage that they put up is absolutely astounding. You're better off staying away from them.

@Jean

The US is NOT an empire.

Snowden has done the global citizens a huge service in his minor revelations. Swallow the little, yet bitter, pill like an honest man.

Sorry, Not buying it, Jean. I would say, the opposite, he did more harm than good.

Bertie: What did he do with this knowledge? What could he do? He could have gone through "official channels" to blow the whistle on the NSA spying on US citizens and the politicians and diplomats of other countries. He could have, but he didn't.

And I have a problem with that. He went to a hotel in Hong Kong and announced where he was, while at the same time saying he was worried the CIA would send the triads to kill him. It was manufactured drama. He could have easily done what the Congressmen said while leaving a copy of the information with the media.

smithinjapan: So Russia is the enemy? You still think they're the 'red menace'?

I think it's fair to say that Putin is the enemy of what Snowden claims to be fighting for.

Look in the mirror, my friend, and you'll see the enemy. The true coward is the person who cannot admit they are defending what they claim to be fighting.

That's rich coming from a guy who refuses to even acknowledge the actions of his own government. What's your reflection like?

I love how the excuse for Prism is that it is ok because "we aren't snooping on Americans." Everyone deserves privacy and most people are not American. It's kind of a pointless excuse anyway, because apparently they've been spying on Americans too.

Bass4funk,

Not to mention risking the lives of many covert and undercover field agents not only in the US, but our allies, all over the world, a lot of innocent people could and probably were killed because of this scums actions.

Who?

Aren’t you confusing Snowden with Manning?

Or are they "all the same" to you?

I wonder who "your" allies are, when the NSA spies on them, bugs their phones and so on.

And in any case, the people whom Snowden shone the light on can hardly be described as "innocent."

This guy showed the world just how far out of line the USA has gone.

He showed us how a country that used to be the bastion of freedom is edging toward a totalitarian regime.

The things the US does nowadays without batting an eyelid used to be the things we criticised the USSR for.

Free speech?

Justice?

You really must be joking!

@bertie

Who?

How the heck should I know? Do you think we got OBL by men and women wearing black suits and skinny dies hiding among the civilian muslim population? Oh, yeah, that's really covert. No one would ever notice.

Aren’t you confusing Snowden with Manning?

Or are they "all the same" to you?

With what they did, which is breaking US government and federal laws with intent to give to another nation/enemy or even ally without the approval or authorization of the federal government. Yeah, I think they are the same.

I wonder who "your" allies are, when the NSA spies on them, bugs their phones and so on.

I'll put it to you this way, Russia and China are definitely NOT our allies.

And in any case, the people whom Snowden shone the light on can hardly be described as "innocent."

Never said they were innocent, but the people working in the agency are not the ones that divulged the secret cables to our enemies, Snowden did, so in that sense, yes, they are innocent.

This guy showed the world just how far out of line the USA has gone.

Bertie, you missed the last thread where your hero Snowden exposed the European spy agencies and how they spy on each other, we missed your condemnation of those shockingly new findings, now's your chance to opine. so how do you feel about these law breaking freedom stealing Europeans that have gone way too far. What are your comments?

He showed us how a country that used to be the bastion of freedom is edging toward a totalitarian regime.

He also showed a continent with a great long history has fallen back to the old days of the occupation where spying was the norm.

The things the US does nowadays without batting an eyelid used to be the things we criticised the USSR for.

And you should still do. If you think Russia is the same equivalent as the US on every level, show me why Russia is a country that is destined for something of greatness.

Free speech?

Russia, China, absolutely NOT!

Justice?

See above

You really must be joking!

Actually, I am very serious. I want this guy caught and hopefully land in prison for the rest of his life.

And that's just the way it is !

The child (a "man" would accept responsibility for his actions) knew the laws involving disclosure of classified information yet decided to break the laws anyway. Then he ran, claiming that if he was caught he would be tried in secret and then executed. Now that he's floating the possibility of testifying before Congress, I guess the original "reason" he gave for running has proven to be a smokescreen for his cowardice.

He's going to provide "details" to Germany over and above what he already handed out? So Snowden - dare I say it - is keeping secrets away from governments in order to extend his time in the spotlight? Yeah. Hooray for the big "hero" doing everything in his power to keep his name in the newspapers.

He can live and die in Russia; they have Mickey D's so he won't get homesick.

He's going to provide "details" to Germany over and above what he already handed out? So Snowden - dare I say it - is keeping secrets away from governments in order to extend his time in the spotlight? Yeah. Hooray for the big "hero" doing everything in his power to keep his name in the newspapers.

Exactly, that's what it's all about. It's about him and nothing more, the man doesn't care about his country, he doesn't even care about the truth or what's pertinent. He cares ONLY about being in the spotlight and what he can get out of it. And he got rewarded at the same time, releasing documents of any kind to of all people, the Russians and the Chinese and for what??? If NOT those two, the other option would have been to go to Valenzuela. Why go to these communist countries? If you value freedom or free speech, these are THE absolute last countries one should go. Snowden is living on borrowed time, once the spotlight is off on him or he can't produce or if his new buddies the Russians get weary of him, served his usefulness, you never know what could happen....

bass4funk: "Once again, the US bashing crowd found a place to gather..."

Ah, and we've reached the usual bottom-of-the-barrel retort. No one is bashing the US as a whole, only the government for its corruption and being the exact same as those they claim to be 'protecting' people against. Like I said, look in the mirror and you'll see the enemy -- and you KNOW it.

The funniest part is that you stand behind the government on this but at the same time constantly bash Obama. That in itself shows the integrity of your arguments. It's almost as though you are a Fox newscaster!

@smith

Ah, and we've reached the usual bottom-of-the-barrel retort. No one is bashing the US as a whole, only the government for its corruption and being the exact same as those they claim to be 'protecting' people against.

So why are you not doing the same to those European countries that are practicing the same kind of so-called corruption? Where is your outrage and condemnation about that?

Like I said, look in the mirror and you'll see the enemy -- and you KNOW it.

I don't believe it. If you are implying that I trust the government 100% I do NOT, but I am not generalizing that Big brother is out to get me, on the other hand, if you talk about China and Russia as far as wanting to undermine and destroy the US or cripple it any way they can, I do believe that and Snowden is aiding them, so when I look in the mirror, I see Snowden's reflection in it.

The funniest part is that you stand behind the government on this but at the same time constantly bash Obama.

What's wrong with bashing Obama? What has he done that was so great for the country, seriously what? Where has the country improved? He's destroying the country, right before our very eyes, Bush didn't even come this close. I'm surprised that JT didn't put up any threads as to how much a disaster is with this crappy healthcare of his, that's headline news and JT hasn't covered it. Hmmm, but I digress. Also, you libs have been trashing Bush for years, if I don't agree, I'm out of touch, if I don't praise Obama, I'm out of touch?? Libs, please make up your minds.

That in itself shows the integrity of your arguments. It's almost as though you are a Fox newscaster!

Yes, I did work for msnbc and Fox, so I know from my very own personal working experience who is full of crap and it wasn't Fox. I didn't even work that long with them, but with msnbc a long time and well...let's just say, fact based news is NOT a high priority for them, but Opinions, a whole new bucket of worms.

bass4funkNov. 04, 2013 - 09:48PM JST Once again, the US bashing crowd found a place to gather

The U.S. undeniably engaged in acts of kidnapping, torture and human rights abuse. The European Court of Human Rights determined this based on evidence in a court of law. If China, Russia or anyone else did this the U.S. would be asking for sanctions, and U.S. citizens would be 100% behind the move. However because the U.S. committed these crimes we see a disturbing minority of U.S. citizens such as you, bass4funk, unwilling to accept the judgement. This is nothing more or less than nationalism blinding them to the truth. This is one of the great dangers of nationalism. Even U.S. courts have backed up these findings, ruling confessions obtained under torture as illegal, but these individuals don't even trust their own government courts... instead they'd rather deny and deny. The same thing happened in Nazi Germany, it is just human nature, however that doesn't make it right.

This isn't "US bashing", no-one is bullying the U.S.. Instead the U.S. is literally bashing and torturing people, and it is time for right-minded people to stand up and say, "No more!".

@frungy I never said, it wasn't possible, I was saying that there is NO real concrete evidence of it. Anything of course, is possible, but generally speaking, No.

No concrete evidence? ROFL!!!! And you have the gall to call yourself a journalist. That European Court of Human Rights judgement I referred to before was for an abduction conducted by the CIA.

The facts are clear and unequivocal. Trying to argue with facts proven in a court of law is stupid.

Yeah, but he didn't do that, had he gave specific info about the things NSA are doing, that's one thing, but he gave the Chinese and Russians EVERYTHING, from our missile defense to some of the weapons we use, to some stealth technology and on and on which has NOTHING to do with spying. The guy is trash, he just wanted to destroy his country pure and simple, by revealing everything we have, how we use it, how we deal militarily with our enemies and allies. I have a cousin that is out in the field, my kin, I worry about and this piece of.... could possibly put his life in jeopardy? He doesn't care, the only thing he cares about is is ego and destroying the US, that's all and the Russians and Chinese are happy to oblige. So I don't feel anything for this trash, I am sure, he will get what he truly deserves, I firmly believe it, I hope for it.

Nonsense. Every reliable source agrees that Snowden revealed ONLY information directly related to the NSA's crimes. If this happens to endanger the lives of U.S. agents then the U.S. should recall these agents, not only because they're engaged in criminal activities, but also because it is the right thing to do. If the U.S. leaves these men in place then anything that happens is the U.S.'s fault, not Snowden's.

Because you think like most liberals think, this is the reason why Assad is still in power, because of liberal leadership. It's called: weakness.

Morality is weakness? Doing the right thing often puts one at a disadvantage. But let's look at the consequences of a decade of the U.S.'s disdain for morality and focus on practicality.... a less safe world, no real lasting change in the Middle East... in fact no progress at all in any area.

The Lehmann crisis was a direct result of a similar logic, people wanted a quick buck and didn't care who it endangered in the long-run. The U.S. is a hotbed of this type of logic, where morality is less important than the law, and the law is circumvented in the name of practicality.

Do you know what the Mafia call themselves? Pragmati. The practical people. The U.S. has become the global Mafia.

He still as an American citizen would have had due process and a right an an attorney.

ROFL!!! You claim to be a journalist, but clearly know NOTHING. Back in 2010 there were 5 U.S. citizens who were abducted and tortured by the CIA, WITHOUT due process or the right to an attorney. 3 of the 5 were found to have NO links to terrorism, but when they sued the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals denied their right to sue. That's just one case, there are many others.

You clearly know nothing about this subject.

Sorry, but you make like the US is China or Russia and that they (the US) constantly trumps up charges and detains people without ANY rights to legal council and that just isn't true.

You wouldn't know the truth if it got up and smacked you in the mouth. Almost all of the Guantanemo bay prisoners were released because there was no proof. They were allowed no legal council, and were tortured and abused. There are thousands of other prisoners at "black sites" around the world, and the CIA is refusing to disclose locations. Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, Khalid El-Masri, Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah and hundreds of others were kidnapped, tortured, raped and eventually let go because ... WHOOPS!! ... they had done nothing wrong. There wasn't a shred of evidence against them.

Again, stop watching too much TV and stop reading the liberal sites. Move on, Think Progress and the Daily Kos. I read them sometimes and the garbage that they put up is absolutely astounding. You're better off staying away from them.

I read reputable news sites, such as the BBC, CNN, etc. These stories aren't conspiracy theories, they're well documented fact... as anyone who was REALLY a journalist would know. Perhaps you should upgrade your news watching habits from FOX news to a more reliable source... even The Onion would be an upgrade on your new reading habits.

The US is NOT an empire.

Again ROFL!!. Map out the location of U.S. governmental extra-territorial holdings, bases and other land the U.S. government holds and you have an area larger than the British Empire at its height.

Sorry, Not buying it, Jean. I would say, the opposite, he did more harm than good.

Harm to a corrupt regime that kidnaps, tortures and murders innocents? Sounds good to me.

@frungy

The U.S. undeniably engaged in acts of kidnapping, torture and human rights abuse. The European Court of Human Rights determined this based on evidence in a court of law. If China, Russia or anyone else did this the U.S. would be asking for sanctions, and U.S. citizens would be 100% behind the move. However because the U.S. committed these crimes we see a disturbing minority of U.S. citizens such as you, bass4funk, unwilling to accept the judgement. This is nothing more or less than nationalism blinding them to the truth. This is one of the great dangers of nationalism. Even U.S. courts have backed up these findings, ruling confessions obtained under torture as illegal, but these individuals don't even trust their own government courts... instead they'd rather deny and deny. The same thing happened in Nazi Germany, it is just human nature, however that doesn't make it right.

This isn't "US bashing", no-one is bullying the U.S.. Instead the U.S. is literally bashing and torturing people, and it is time for right-minded people to stand up and say, "No more!".

Naaaaw....Of course it's not bashing.

Ok, fine, so where is your hard concrete evidence of this, not one, but of some serious smoking guns where these allegations are seriously practiced and I'm talking about now. Show me government signed and sealed documents that this all happened.

No concrete evidence? ROFL!!!! And you have the gall to call yourself a journalist. That European Court of Human Rights judgement I referred to before was for an abduction conducted by the CIA.

The facts are clear and unequivocal. Trying to argue with facts proven in a court of law is stupid.

I'm not trying to argue anything, I just want to see exactly where you got your sources on this, I mean, reliable. Not third party crap.

Nonsense. Every reliable source agrees that Snowden revealed ONLY information directly related to the NSA's crimes.

Actually, that's NOT quite true. The truth is, we really don't know what Snowden gave the Chinese, but the Russians and the Chinese know what Snowden gave them. You are just speculating again.

If this happens to endanger the lives of U.S. agents then the U.S. should recall these agents, not only because they're engaged in criminal activities, but also because it is the right thing to do. If the U.S. leaves these men in place then anything that happens is the U.S.'s fault, not Snowden's.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Morality is weakness? Doing the right thing often puts one at a disadvantage. But let's look at the consequences of a decade of the U.S.'s disdain for morality and focus on practicality.... a less safe world, no real lasting change in the Middle East... in fact no progress at all in any area.

Blame the sactarian wars on the Sunni and Shiites

The Lehmann crisis was a direct result of a similar logic, people wanted a quick buck and didn't care who it endangered in the long-run. The U.S. is a hotbed of this type of logic, where morality is less important than the law, and the law is circumvented in the name of practicality.

Blame Barney Frank and Chris's Dodd for that.

Do you know what the Mafia call themselves? Pragmati. The practical people. The U.S. has become the global Mafia.

And again, your fact based proof of that is.....

ROFL!!! You claim to be a journalist, but clearly know NOTHING. Back in 2010 there were 5 U.S. citizens who were abducted and tortured by the CIA, WITHOUT due process or the right to an attorney. 3 of the 5 were found to have NO links to terrorism, but when they sued the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals denied their right to sue. That's just one case, there are many others.

You clearly know nothing about this subject.

Still waiting for your reliable proof.

You wouldn't know the truth if it got up and smacked you in the mouth. Almost all of the Guantanemo bay prisoners were released because there was no proof. They were allowed no legal council, and were tortured and abused. There are thousands of other prisoners at "black sites" around the world, and the CIA is refusing to disclose locations. Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, Khalid El-Masri, Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah and hundreds of others were kidnapped, tortured, raped and eventually let go because ... WHOOPS!! ... they had done nothing wrong. There wasn't a shred of evidence against them.

I read reputable news sites, such as the BBC, CNN, etc. These stories aren't conspiracy theories,

Oh, really....

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/bbc-admits-anti-american-bias/

Sorry, try again.

they're well documented fact... as anyone who was REALLY a journalist would know.

I do know, that's why, I refused to do my intern ship with them back in '93

Perhaps you should upgrade your news watching habits from FOX news to a more reliable source... even The Onion would be an upgrade on your new reading habits.

Naw, after working for msnbc and FOX, I'll stay with FOX at least they don't hold Obama's water and don't have to worry about getting threats about for not following and adhering to a strict liberal culture.

But thanks, anyhow.

Again ROFL!!. Map out the location of U.S. governmental extra-territorial holdings, bases and other land the U.S. government holds and you have an area larger than the British Empire at its height.

What, now you're jealous?

Harm to a corrupt regime that kidnaps, tortures and murders innocents? Sounds good to me

But you're NOT stereotyping, eh? Lol BTW, still waiting for the list of names of these alleged tortured, kidnaps and murdered people. Fact based info, please.

bass4funkNov. 06, 2013 - 09:11AM JST Ok, fine, so where is your hard concrete evidence of this, not one, but of some serious smoking guns where these allegations are seriously practiced and I'm talking about now. Show me government signed and sealed documents that this all happened.

I popped around the corner to the European Court of Human Rights and picked up some extra copies they had lying around. I'm holding them up.... you can't see? ... hmmm.... perhaps that's because you fail to understand how this "internet forum" thing works.

The European Court of Human Rights has a searchable database of case law for free. ... but any journalist worth his salt would know that.

I'm not trying to argue anything, I just want to see exactly where you got your sources on this, I mean, reliable. Not third party crap.

I told you where to go, the European Court of Human Rights. Any journalist would know this...

Actually, that's NOT quite true. The truth is, we really don't know what Snowden gave the Chinese, but the Russians and the Chinese know what Snowden gave them. You are just speculating again.

Yet you were SO certain and specifically mentioned that he'd given information on stealth technology, missile bases, etc. When I make a statement it is speculation, when you make a statement it is what... divine inspiration?

Blame the sactarian wars on the Sunni and Shiites

The Sunni and Shiites have been feuding for more than 1 000 years. Now suddenly they're to blame for the U.S.'s actions? Don't be ridiculous.

Still waiting for your reliable proof.

I told you where to find it.

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/bbc-admits-anti-american-bias/

Yes, which is why I don't ONLY read the BBC. Almost all newspapers these days lean one way of the other. But your reading habits?

Naw, after working for msnbc and FOX, I'll stay with FOX at least they don't hold Obama's water and don't have to worry about getting threats about for not following and adhering to a strict liberal culture.

FOX is an international laughing stock. Your inability to make an argument and rabid right-wing bias are now completely explained.

What, now you're jealous?

Nope, the Roman Empire fell, the British Empire fell, and the U.S. Empire will fall. Inevitably these empires over-reach and fall.

But you're NOT stereotyping, eh? Lol BTW, still waiting for the list of names of these alleged tortured, kidnaps and murdered people. Fact based info, please.

Go to the European Court of Human Rights website, then go to the list of Guantanemo bay detainess, then go and check out the list of drone victims.

There's mountains of proof, however you simply refuse to see any of it. There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

@frungy

I popped around the corner to the European Court of Human Rights and picked up some extra copies they had lying around. I'm holding them up.... you can't see? ... hmmm.... perhaps that's because you fail to understand how this "internet forum" thing works.

The European Court of Human Rights has a searchable database of case law for free. ... but any journalist worth his salt would know that.

Ok, so No proof, gotcha.

I told you where to go, the European Court of Human Rights. Any journalist would know this...

I see, so No proof, once again...gotcha.

Yet you were SO certain and specifically mentioned that he'd given information on stealth technology, missile bases, etc. When I make a statement it is speculation, when you make a statement it is what... divine inspiration?

I said, NO such thing, I only said, for a fact that the information that Snowden had on him was more, far more information pertaining to other things what the government does, not only NSA cables about spying. Why else would the Chinese and the Russians be interested in the smorgasbord of intel that Snowden had on the US? Spying is just one component, has nothing to do with divine intervention.

The Sunni and Shiites have been feuding for more than 1 000 years. Now suddenly they're to blame for the U.S.'s actions? Don't be ridiculous.

Yup, and after 40 years of Sunni rule in Iraq and after the fall of Saddam, you think that the Shiites would just jump up in the air, celebrate and go off their merrily ways? They wanted payback of course. Anyone could have seen that one coming.

I told you where to find it.

No, I am asking you to provide me the stats, you made the allegations, so I am waiting for your concrete stats.

Yes, which is why I don't ONLY read the BBC. Almost all newspapers these days lean one way of the other. But your reading habits?

a lot, but I stay away from the ONLY liberal talking points or the typical American bashing only media which many of the European newspapers are.

FOX is an international laughing stock. Your inability to make an argument and rabid right-wing bias are now completely explained.

If that were so, one, they wouldn't have the highest ratings of ANY cable news outlet. Two, if they were so irrelevant, the Obama admin, George Soros, Aljazeera and others wouldn't try to silence it, When you make so much effort in trying to silence an entire organization for presenting the news as should be and seeing it as a threat to your livelihood, means, you are doing something right.

Nope, the Roman Empire fell, the British Empire fell, and the U.S. Empire will fall. Inevitably these empires over-reach and fall.

Well, the US is not an Empire, but falling, I doubt it, more like a setback at least for the next 3 years. Besides, China would NEVER allow that to happen, rest assured.

Go to the European Court of Human Rights website, then go to the list of Guantanemo bay detainess, then go and check out the list of drone victims.

I have done that and it's the same liberal crap, the same people that want to trump up charges on Bush and Cheney, Yes, yes, I know... You know what they do with their so called one-sided bias findings.... They can say whatever they want or trump up whatever bogus charges they want, take it with a grain of salt. As if we have to click our heels and jump because the Europeans allege and write it out?

There's mountains of proof, however you simply refuse to see any of it. There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

No, I don't refuse, I'm open to anything eye opening. I just asked you for some fact based info and proof that these people were indeed murdered tortured etc. Which I have not seen ANY from you.

This translates there is no hope for possible deals for Snowden. I have no sympathy for Snowden.

You cannot go through security clearance and work for the government then in all of sudden, you wake up and blow up like Snowden. It means an end of security, military, and negotiations.