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Noose tightens around WikiLeaks' Assange

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This is a witch hunt,big brother strikes back.Here is a man who has shared with us all ,things that the leaders of the world don,t want us to know.Truth hurts so the saying goes. Countries and their politicians are not above the law,and neither are their secret service agencies,but they always think they are.

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Some things never change. The lynchmob is crying for the blood of the messenger. Killing journalists and innocent people from a helicopter is "sound judgment" while making public the sinister workings of the powers that be is "endangering lives". The fatwa of Islamic radicals on Rushdie and a Danish cartoonist are a threat to freedom of speech, while they tell us that the fatwa on Assange is to protect "free" countries. No difference between you and your enemies: same language, same methods, same lies, same hypocrisy.

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Sarah Palin likened Assange to an al-Qaida propagandist and accused him, without offering any proof, of having “blood on his hands.”

“Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaida and Taliban leaders?” she asked in a message posted to her Facebook page.

As O'Reilly would say: "Just sh*t up!"

Next Woody Allen movie: Every Thing You Always Wanted to Know About Your Government * But Were Afraid to Ask

Even if Assange have to be "liquidated", I hope his network will continue the work.

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minello7:"Countries and their politicians are not above the law,and neither are their secret service agencies,but they always think they are."

Ok I will give you that.

BUT

What does this have to do with breaking any laws?:

"these from the U.S. Embassy staff in Turkmenistan—portrays the president of the former Soviet state in Central Asia, Gurbanguli Berdymukhamedov, as “vain, suspicious, guarded, strict, very conservative, a practiced liar,” and “not a very bright guy.”

What good does this serve other than foster animosity?

And this:

"Georgia’s ambassador in Rome claimed that Berlusconi was promised a cut of the profits in energy deals with Russia."

All this is a claim by the Georgian Ambassador no proof and with Georgia's feelings towards Russia not that reliable and again only serves to muddy the water.

I could go on and on with many more even some that might end up causing wars.

If this idiot really wanted to expose wrong doing then he would have only released the documents that showed that, but instead he seems bent on destroying all diplomatic trust and to foment distrust among all nations by making public personal opinions and assessments about people that were said in confidence, nothing criminal and definitely nothing that will make anyone's life easier, in some cases like the release of China's view of NK and Kim will most likely make things harder and possibly more dangerous.

The guy is not any hero he is nothing but a megalomaniac a little nothing in this world trying to show how great he is!

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The guy is not any hero he is nothing but a megalomaniac a little nothing in this world trying to show how great he is!

what? US bombs and firings on civilians all covered up, dirty politics and tax payer money being spent on wholesale murder globally by the US and Assange is the megalomaniac trying to show the world how great he is? Oh man.....

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Countries and their politicians are not above the law,and neither are their secret service agencies,but they always think they are.

And neither are self proclaimed liberal "journalists". He'll fry eventually.

US bombs and firings on civilians all covered up, dirty politics and tax payer money being spent on wholesale murder globally by the US.

And you have read all that yourself in these documents?

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Palin and these other right wing morons in the US are making fools of themselves by trying to equate this guy with alQuaida. As if the world does not already view the US hysteria and fear mongering with a combination of pity and worry similar to that given passengers to a drunk on the verge of vomiting on the train.

The laundry aired shows us what we already knew. Politics, globally, is dirty, corrupt, murderous and insane. Anyone shocked by this has clearly been living behind rose lenses.

I expect this fellow to turn up dead at some point. It will be blamed upon some radical fanatic who called for his blood, but the smoking gun will be in the hands of someone far more legitimate and vested with the sanction to carry out such an act.

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So this guy is Australian? I always thought he was some nutcase from Sweden, but anyway, this guy needs to be sent of to Guantanamo, to me he smells of an Alqaeda lover dressed in a white man's body.

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I expect this fellow to turn up dead at some point. It will be blamed upon some radical fanatic who called for his blood

That Canadian Harper spokesman?

but the smoking gun will be in the hands of someone far more legitimate and vested with the sanction to carry out such an act.

The Mossad? The CIA? MI6?

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Sarah Palin likened Assange to an al-Qaida propagandist and accused him, without offering any proof, of having “blood on his hands.”

“Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaida and Taliban leaders?” she asked in a message posted to her Facebook page.

Amazing. I thought Sarah Palin was a private citizen. I keep getting told she is "completely irrelevant." But the AP just can't help quoting her.This strikes me as a first in modern US politics.

Looking at the declining number of newspaper readers and the now general distrust and even disgust with the "lame stream media" (as Palin likes to call it) I think we need to call this by its true name - red meat for what remains of Obama's base.

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And you have read all that yourself in these documents?

the documents only serve to prove what anyone without their head up their butt already knew.

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Tim, your unending capacity to go after Obama on any opportunity warrants at least acknowledgement for tenacity if not political common sense.

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“I do find it somewhat strange and to say the least `coincidental’ that Interpol has made the arrest warrant public simultaneous to Wikileaks releasing its latest revelations,” Hurtig said. “My mind remains open as to whether the prosecutor has been influenced by any third-party considerations.”

And some of us find it strange that he decided to release these documents that he's had for some time right after he's charged with rape.

One batch of the latest leaked dispatches—these from the U.S. Embassy staff in Turkmenistan—portrays the president of the former Soviet state in Central Asia, Gurbanguli Berdymukhamedov, as “vain, suspicious, guarded, strict, very conservative, a practiced liar,” and “not a very bright guy.”

Again, ask yourself what the net result of this information is. Were laws broken? Nope. Did not making this information public harm the rights of Americans or others? Nope. Whistleblowing material? Nope.

“I think he’s an anarchist,” Crowley said. He said Assange is “trying to undermine the international system that enables us to cooperate and collaborate with other governments.”

Yep.

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I expect this fellow to turn up dead at some point. It will be blamed upon some radical fanatic who called for his blood

This is a contest, right ? Here's my entry :

Assange will be liquidated after he beats out Lady Gaga for Time Magazine's Person of the Year.

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the documents only serve to prove what anyone without their head up their butt already knew.

which documents exactly? I'd like to look them up on wikileaks.

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bobbafett at 09:15 AM JST - 3rd December

I know this may sound crazy but could you try reading what people write and not just pick a line and make it suit your agenda!

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Tim, your unending capacity to go after Obama on any opportunity warrants at least acknowledgement for tenacity

Yeah he's starting to remind me of all those cranks that did the same to GW Bush.

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Assange represents the millions of people who have been abducted,maimed and killed in secret prisons by variuos govts.

Assange represents the War victims of the Iraqi and Afghaniztan wars.

Assange represents the ordinary people who have no power and money and thus live in a fairy world.

America is has not signed the Rome treaty of the International Criminal court,Why?So any country who hands over Assange to America is a stooge and will suffer serious backlash from its citizens. If u r not a signatory to that I dont expect Interpol to suport you and any country else.Hypocrisy at its best. I think G.Bush is the one that has to be arrested and tried for war crimes not Assange.

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superlib,

You are no where near even wining this debate. you are very short on the facts surrounding the bogus rape claims. Even you cannot defend the video of the murder of Iraqi civilians and press agents by US helicopter gunships exposed via Assange.

We have a right to know what our Governments are doing around the world because we elect and enable them. With this information out in the open we can elect and enable those we deem suitable for their roles.

We have a right to know what giant banks and corporations do with our money and profits. With information we can choose where to shop and where to invest and bank.

what the USA and co are doing, attempting to deny us the right to information that may influence us in an alternate way of freedom of thought and choice is as tyrannical as any regime or order that exists in countries that the US and co have invaded and ruined under the guise of freedom and democracy.

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I am glad that he is releasing all of this information because it puts all of the governments around the world in their place and creates a way for the people to know what is really going on behind closed doors.

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...Serious and Organized Crime Agency...

Really, is that the best name they could come up with?

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Assange represents the millions of people who have been abducted,maimed and killed in secret prisons by variuos govts.

No, he doesn't. Assange represents himself, ridden by his own massive narcissism and some weird messiah complex.

Assange represents the War victims of the Iraqi and Afghaniztan wars.

You have access to Wikileak docs exposing the militant Muslim groups slaughtering their own in those 2 places like animals?

Assange represents the ordinary people who have no power and money and thus live in a fairy world.

It is his supporters who live in a fairy world - there is no precedent in history for what this criminal has done, because like all True Believers on the Left he lives in a utopian future.

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I'm glad he's doing it. Dirty, dirty, dirty governments and institutions brought to account. But pick up the pace of airing this dirty linen! Sooner or later the people who tout open government will shut him down. You know, in the name of open government.

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We have a right to know what giant banks and corporations do with our money and profits. With information we can choose where to shop and where to invest and bank.

Could you explain this more please? Was some kind of conspiracy by banks and corporations and governments leaked in the wikileaks? I'd like to read those ones too. Please point us all in that direction.

I am glad that he is releasing all of this information because it puts all of the governments around the world in their place and creates a way for the people to know what is really going on behind closed doors.

I'm so happy that all the governments concerned were "put in their place". I was gonna lose some sleep over them again tonight.

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The wikileaks also has documents disclosing why Bush invaded Iraq

Bush didn't invade Iraq. The US military, after our democratically-elected Congress passed the required resolutions, effected regime change in a failed state that sponsored terror.

If you find facts to the contrary go ahead and post them here. Since I am an "Islamophobe" I would welcome any proof which would deter further US involvement in nations where the Desert Cult prevails...

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It's not illegal to publish those documents, even in the US. The person who supplied them to WikiLeaks has probably broken the law, but that person isn't Assange. The likes of Peter King who call for Assange to be charged with espionage and for WikiLeaks to be declared a "terrorist" organisation are nothing but posturing fools.

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bobbafett: "We have a right to know what our Governments are doing around the world because we elect and enable them. With this information out in the open we can elect and enable those we deem suitable for their roles."

Again you're still living in your dream world, "ELECT" who are you kidding the only governments this will cause trouble for and possibly weaken are the democratic ones, you seem to forget that places like China, NK, Turkmenistan, etc.. don't give a damn about elections as our governments fight among each other and internally these places will just move along and stake more claims and take (not elect) more power and control over more places.

You have a myopic view of so many so call open government groups and anarchist that you all fail to see the rest of the world.

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Geez. All the U.S. gov supporting bend-overs can do is nitpick over tiny details and attack the messenger. You guys really should get some self-respect. Some testicles to defend democratic principles would also help.

You complain about violations of law? Well, we all know you would not whine so much about these little violations if it was to bring down a cartel in Mexico. Take you longer in the morning to wash those two faces?

No difference between you and your enemies: same language, same methods, same lies, same hypocrisy.

Oh come on Tigris! Surely we are more clever, sneaky and have a prettier face! I won't argue with the rest though.

And I will comment that that prettier face sure seems to make it easier for the ankle grabbers here.

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You have a myopic view of so many so call open government groups and anarchist that you all fail to see the rest of the world.

Total BS! I have not once spoken of anarchy. I am speaking of the right to information. If I elect someone I have the right to know how that person/s are representing me on the world stage.

If I pay taxes or entrust my money with a bank, I have a right to know how my money is spent or invested as do you and every other human on this planet including your beloved Chinese and DPRK peoples.

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How about emailing Assange and hurrying him up about it?

On wikileaks website: How to explore the data Search for events that you remember that happened for example in your country. You can browse by date or search for an origin near you.

It's not that easy of a website to navigate. I wish I were provided with something of a topic, date, origin like it suggests but I have no idea which documents bobba is referring to. And no help from him. I wonder why.

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but I have no idea which documents bobba is referring to. And no help from him. I wonder why

Copy and paste:

Early next year, Julian Assange says, a major American bank will suddenly find itself turned inside out. Tens of thousands of its internal documents will be exposed on Wikileaks.org with no polite requests for executives’ response or other forewarnings. The data dump will lay bare the finance firm’s secrets on the Web for every customer, every competitor, every regulator to examine and pass judgment on.

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And some of us find it strange that he decided to release these documents that he's had for some time right after he's charged with rape.

You almost have a point Super...almost. This guy has known from the start that he would have to live a life of secrecy. Its a common enough concept that even superhero comic book loving geeks understand it. Living a life of secrecy to do good comes at a cost, and that cost includes being branded a villian by some for exposing the truth (the truth being something most of us were taught from birth is a good thing).

Yes, I do understand the need for secrecy sometimes, whether it Assange or the government, but one is clearly abusing their power of secrecy and that is where the bulk of your outrage should rest, should you happen to have any ability of judgement at all.

So back to the timing: Assange receives none of your tax money. None of your praise will get him through the day. If he has to keep some info on the back burner for purposes of CYA, its the cost of his position and life of secrecy. You want full disclosure? Ask it first and foremost of the people you pay for the priviledge but don't give it to you.

This show reminds me a lot of the show Dark Angel with Jessica Alba. Some of you nay-sayers should watch it and make a try at learning right from wrong, or more precisely degrees of right and wrong. You keep wanting perfection from Assange but give the U.S. gov a free pass to do whatever.

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bobbafett:"If I pay taxes or entrust my money with a bank, I have a right to know how my money is spent or invested"

Then I guess using your logic, it would be fine if your employer also had that same attitude and decided to have someone hack into your personal life to see where his money to you is being spent and what you are doing with your time that may be embarrassing to him.

And on the same note how are you going to react if contained in the Bank and subsequent government documents due to be released you find all your personal information like birth records, bank accounts, etc..

Who will you blame then? Assange? No I don't think so I think you will blame the banks and the government for lack of security.

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And no help from him. I wonder why.

Try to paste a URL here and you will have part of your answer.

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it would be fine if your employer also had that same attitude and decided to have someone hack into your personal life to see where his money to you is being spent and what you are doing with your time that may be embarrassing to him.

That is not my logic. Elected official's are expected to work for their country. By your logic you choose to be a slave to yours and see it as your employer.

And on the same note how are you going to react if contained in the Bank and subsequent government documents due to be released you find all your personal information like birth records, bank accounts, etc.

I will go 1000/1 that customers private data is not exposed by Assange.

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For updated cables on Billionaires that have exposed on wikileaks, google "forbes Billionaires Burned By WikiLeaks" without the quotes obviously.

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bobbafett: Early next year, Julian Assange says, a major American bank will suddenly find itself turned inside out. Tens of thousands of its internal documents will be exposed on Wikileaks.org with no polite requests for executives’ response or other forewarnings. The data dump will lay bare the finance firm’s secrets on the Web for every customer, every competitor, every regulator to examine and pass judgment on.

Oh so this is NOT about government transparency. It's about a grudge against America in general. So because it's a bank. And it's an American bank he is really going to stick it to "the Yanks" with this eh? Well I hope your information or financial details are released with this bank but maybe you don't bank at an American bank. You are, like Assange, one of these America haters so any American institution is fine. I wonder if he'd give details of the Australian government and financial institutions out and how the boys and girls back home would be with that. Not too happy I'd say. But this being about the USA, I guess it's all fine and dandy. This site feeds you anti-Americans just fine and this story is just blood for you all. You are proving it with every post. No calls for others to be transparent but the USA has to be. In the modern world we call that a double standard. Something your ilk like to say only the USA has. Funny that liberals like to point out others hypocrisy but can't see their own.

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Then I guess using your logic, it would be fine if your employer also had that same attitude and decided to have someone hack into your personal life to see where his money to you is being spent and what you are doing with your time that may be embarrassing to him.

What the? The money an employer pays us is ours to do with what we will. I know the minds of those who feel entitled might have trouble absorbing this, but TAXES ARE NOT A REWARD. In no way are taxes comparable to a salary...or even a bonus. Gee whiz. Tax money is given for a specific purpose, and if you violate that purpose you are not doing your job. This is about the government not doing its job, a far cry from what is done on one's free time with one's own money.

Anyway, if I worked for a dirty bank and some third party hacked the bank computers to expose their massive fraud, I would take the loss of my personal information in stride. Its what one gets for working for a dirty bank! Be thankful it stops there. And try to remember where it started: the dirty bank! Its the same place your scorn should start. Passing the buck onto a justified messanger is pretty well established to be nuts. It all hinges on if the messanger is justified. Exposing fraud is justified, that is also pretty well established.

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mikehuntez,

bobbafett at 11:25 AM JST - 3rd December For updated cables on Billionaires that have exposed on wikileaks, google "forbes Billionaires Burned By WikiLeaks" without the quotes obviously.

Take that chip off your shoulder.

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hottomales, I know the website url but if he could post the latter half of it that gives a document to put after that part of the url then I'd be happy. Here's an example. cable slash 2008 slash 01 slash 08OTTAWA136 putting the "html" part at the end of course. Is that simple enough?

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I am glad that he is releasing all of this information because it puts all of the governments around the world in their place and creates a way for the people to know what is really going on behind closed doors.

What? The governments around the world do what we all do in our daily life, they check-out the people they are dealing with. In all aspects of (economic) life, we want to know who we are dealing with and we try to google our new clients, find out their preferences etc. Who is surprised that the govt. is doing the same? Writing it down and being careless enough to have the docs leak, that's another story.

What do these documents now bring to the world or Mr. A? Nothing! (but maybe harm due to distrust and a stall in many important negotiations) They only satisfy some of the "docu-soap" lovers and fit perfectly into the voyeurism-loving world of facebook etc.

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Tim, The invasion was decided by a war monger without resorting to commen sense.you think itis appropraite for a country to single handedly invade another?that is not civilization. U just buy a few stooge,stupid and idiotic allies and invade anothe rcountry.what is the essence of the world accepted UN? The documents also have the amount of oil hat has been stolen from Iraq plus the lies of the govt. U said democratically elected congress.American politics is no longer for thepeople ,it has been hijacked by PACs and interest groups.cash and power wins not peolples views. I still stand by Assange. The rest of the world is watching closely to see what a country that prides on Freedom and democracy will do. Recent developments indicate how America is falling.This is not the America we knew.

Assange will get the Noble price next year @plus the forbes man of the year.u envy him,I guess.

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What do these documents now bring to the world or Mr. A? Nothing! (but maybe harm due to distrust and a stall in many important negotiations) They only satisfy some of the "docu-soap" lovers and fit perfectly into the voyeurism-loving world of facebook etc.

This is information that is vital to people choosing and voting via informed decisions. Important negotiations are for the people to decide that that is what their Government should be doing.

In the meantime if the same government is harbouring a bunch of dirty secrets behind a tsunami of brainwash and propaganda then it is the people who are armed with information who can decide to make the world a better place by standing against those responsible for wars, greed, corruption and other atrocities at democratic ballots.

so what do these documents bring to the world? Well maybe Assange just proved that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth and the Hierarchy of our time would love to lock him away or kill him for it.

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TimRussert: You have access to Wikileak docs exposing the militant Muslim groups slaughtering their own in those 2 places like animals?

It's all over the press. Nothing is denied so why should it be found on WikiLeaks? Do you even understand the purpose of WikiLeaks?

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In all aspects of (economic) life, we want to know who we are dealing with and we try to google our new clients, find out their preferences etc. Who is surprised that the govt. is doing the same?

Yeah, sure. Diplomats collecting hair samples, nail clippings and lifting fingerprints off glasses should just be taken in stride by other diplomats. Perhaps they also be nice enough to offer blood, urine, semen and fecal samples on their own as well as retinal scans? None of that could be used for nefarious purposes. For example, the CIA would never use them to frame anyone for murder, such as by planting DNA evidence, right? Because the CIA just doesn't do that sort of thing. And neither would anyone to whom the CIA would give all that to, right? Also, the CIA would never think of using those fingerprints and retinal scans to enter embassy offices where they are needed and proceed to rifle through documents. Right?

Its not only like some of you have no imaginations, have never read a book and have never watched a movie. Its also like you have never read anything on modern history or even a darned newspaper! The CIA is real. The dirty deeds they have done were real. The dirty deeds they and others of any gov including the U.S. will do are real. State secrets are real. State secrets being stolen are real. James Bond is NOT real though, and real spys don't work that way. But spys are real, and accumulating biometric data is one thing that spies do to faciliate other spying.

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The CIA is real. The dirty deeds they have done were real.

So is the KGB. So is Al Qaeda. So is the PLA. So is Hezbollah.

It's a dangerous world.

Why, it's so dangerous most SANE people believe we need a degree of prudence so profound it demands secrecy when the stakes are high enough.

Apparently it is different in comic books...

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Yeah, sure. Diplomats collecting hair samples, nail clippings and lifting fingerprints off glasses should just be taken in stride by other diplomats. Perhaps they also be nice enough to offer blood, urine, semen and fecal samples on their own as well as retinal scans?

The UN has really shown no backbone over this issue but every diplomat there will never trust the handshake of an American again.

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Palin asked why Assange isnt being pursued o the same level of Al qaida etc. well..if Osama bin Laden is still safe then Assange can take a nice relaxing holiday too!

Leaks happen every day and they always will.....shooting the messenger never helps! changing behaviour does

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Amusing to see the "government is bad" crowd rush to defend the US government. I guess some people know where their bread is really buttered, even though they spend all their time saying the opposite. Very predictable. Myself I think there are much more interesting questions here.

One, why is nobody being held accountable for the United States having such clearly inadequate security and procedures in place? Manning had access to stuff that he had no reason to have access to.

Two, what is the evidence against Manning? The only thing I have seen was that he incriminated himself and the government was tipped off. Otherwise they would have had no idea. So how do they know he was the only one downloading files, and that those files have not been handed over to groups other than WikiLeaks? Looks like they don't know.

Three, what are the contents of the encrypted file? Is it a bluff or is there something really big, and does the US government have any knowledge of the contents? Until all that is known, it is hard to really know what is going on here, and how much is just spin and damage control.

Four, what is in the banking documents. Will they just show what everybody who doesn't have their head up their butt already knows, that it there is a lot of criminal racketeering and political influence peddling going on, or will it have something that can't be swept under the carpet? Maybe evidence of criminal behavior at the top level of the bank or government, or the true financial situation of the bank and the system. Would that something explain the sudden obsession with going after Assange, when before he was just considered a nuisance and troublemaker. But then the leaks were just about the military, not the real government of the USA. It is pretty obvious from the actions in the US and Europe that the only priority for those in charge is to keep the present financial system alive and in place. How much of a threat to them is Assange, and if he is, how can they stop him?

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Amusing to see the "government is bad" crowd rush to defend the US government.

I can't speak for others , but with me it's more a case of "Civilization and freedom are good; living like a prisoner of China, Cuba, Russia or Iran is not."

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One, why is nobody being held accountable for the United States having such clearly inadequate security and procedures in place?

Because everyone knows the real problem is inadequate justification for designating so much of this leak classified in the first place. You have gone right back to blaming the messanger.

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Oh, and if its the US gov that butters my bread, they can stop now. They can all go home. I don't want people like this representing me. Its part of the reason I left America and am very likely to ever go back. So much of what the gov does and so many ankle grabbers here always ready to defend the gov no matter what, are an embarrassment to me. There are many things I love about America, but America does not equal the U.S. government. The government,for the most part, I hate. And I don't much like the beta males who suck up to it either.

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I can't speak for others , but with me it's more a case of "Civilization and freedom are good; living like a prisoner of China, Cuba, Russia or Iran is not.

living in what freedom? freedom of information?

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Oh, and if its the US gov that butters my bread, they can stop now

Sorry, wasn't clear there. I was referring to the media and politicians, not people posting here. People here get unbuttered bread.

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Well, unless he is James Bond, the State Dept. will probably do to Assange what they did to Bobby Fischer (former world chess champ) and spirit him away to an isolated Iceland. Or, he may be able to strike a deal.

Whatever results, the US is not going to look good in this where they are the leaders of democracy and freedom. There is death in the air.

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Whistleblowing is important. Knowing that Kadhafi likes blonds with big tits is not news worthy but if you give your government a free pass to lie to you, you deserve to go to the slaughterhouse like cattle do without asking any question.

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Access to leaked classified info plus the likes of Assange and I is what is needed to keep superpowers in check.

It is the ordinary mans way of check and balance.

I am happy to witness this during my lifetime.

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Apecnetworks-

That is what we are waiting to see,whether the USA will bend and fall OR will uphold the very reason it is regarded the current leader of the world.

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What would be interesting is to hear what " the Father of the Internet", former VP Al Gore has to say about this info leak on the Internet?

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What is happening to the dude that initially took them and gave them to Assange?

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goddog-

They are waterboarding him.that is America's standard practice.

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They are waterboarding him.that is America's standard practice

If he is lucky, the Euros jail him or turn him over to the US.

Maybe you would like to tell us what you think Iran or China does to your hero Assange if he ever transits through Shanghai, or say, Hezbollah-controlled Beirut?

Seen Putin's comments on the matter? Russia's president-for-life is not too happy that Wikileaks told the world he was probably informed beforehand that certain journalists and certain rivals of his were to be assassinated.

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Maybe you would like to tell us what you think Iran or China does to your hero Assange if he ever transits through Shanghai, or say, Hezbollah-controlled Beirut?

When you're reduced to making comparisons with the regimes in Iran or China in order to make your own country look good, you should realise you're not going to win any arguments.

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When you're reduced to making comparisons with the regimes in Iran or China in order to make your own country look good, you should realise you're not going to win any arguments.

Read my post. Maybe Europe (Interpol) jails him. Maybe Sweden extradites him to the US. He could do a lot worse. You are a fanboy of Assange. I understand. But if you think the US is the worst place he could end up you are sadly mistaken.

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TimRussert: Maybe you would like to tell us what you think Iran or China does to your hero Assange if he ever transits through Shanghai, or say, Hezbollah-controlled Beirut? Seen Putin's comments on the matter? Russia's president-for-life is not too happy that Wikileaks told the world he was probably informed beforehand that certain journalists and certain rivals of his were to be assassinated.

WOW! I'd like to have the same spinning ability. "What if" doesn't go anywhere. If he was Chinese or Russian and put in prison, you'll have the west asking for his release and people chanting how free we are on this forum.

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TiimRussert-

yes,they are all after him.Just like the US.it makes no difference to me.

Those leaders have been exposed too.He has the right to live,just like those barbarious,uncivilized govts and their agencies.

I think u work in the financial sector thats why u so bent on him been arrested.U better start getting another degree cos when he is arrested the financial sector is coming down,Big time.

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Wikileaks is what this world needs, for better or for worse.

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I agree with apecNetworks,

But I am curious as how Assange is still alive. I am sure there have been people who have bee "silenced" for lesser crimes that have not been reported. Furthermore, "if" the documents were so sensitive in the first place, it would not be difficult for any of the government agencies to shut down the DNS servers at which wikileaks is running from. You can pin point server locations quite easily with sniffing software, and quickly shut them down, or hack into with relative ease to eliminate the information. Case in point, please see the Chinese hackers response to the Iranian hackers last year. If by chance people have forgotten, the chinese hackers hacked the iranian website back within a matter of days, and the site was rendered useless for several months. And I am certain there are hackers of equal or greater caliber working in the government agencies. Just go to your local hacker conference to see what they can really do. But I digress; Aside from hacking or denying the wikileaks DNS address, there are other things they can do as well, as in deny any domain name with "wiki" in it or "leaks" in it, so that when you type in the domain, it just reroutes your pc to another site.

So "if" this information is so sensitive, why has it been up for so long? Julian Assange maybe a hacker, but I know one thing for sure, if he was he would have been hunted and criminalized very very quickly. Case and point please see stories of real hackers living in the US back in the 80's and 90's. And better yet, Please read on Gary Mckinnon.

Interesting to note, there is a rumor circulating around the net where, this maybe the excuse the world governments needs to begin regulating the Internet heavily, and break the supposed Net Neutrality Agreement that was put in place a couple of years back.

But ApecNetworks: I do agree death is in the air, but the death of what?

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I can't want until this guy goes down. We should have a national holiday celebrating the day he's sentenced to life in Guantanamo.

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bubzabub-

Then u have to contact Timrussert.

We will also know who did it and a martyr he will be.

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I haven't read through much of the voluminous background on this issue yet, but they seem to be pinning the question of who provided the files in the first place on an army private already in custody. How would an army private possibly have access to confidential State Department records (assuming he obtained them prior to his incarceration)???

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On the plus side, the USA should be proud of the quality of their diplomatic/ foreign service staff.

Their professional observations and written opinions appear to be quite accurate, reflecting reality as opposed to the smoke, lies and mirrors put about by the political spin doctors, their masters and the MSM...

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To Gdx9902,

"But ApecNetworks: I do agree death is in the air, but the death of what?"

Sec State Clinton said it succinctly for the US during the presidential campaign - the "Death of the American Dream".

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Well has the big bad USA fallen yet? I thought that with all the "dirty secrets" that it would be on it's knees now begging forgiveness from all other nations. Well I still haven't found my reference to any specific document that proves what some are saying. I guess they are hard at work looking for that document that proves the USA is all evil and "has lied to us". I will certainly be losing sleep tonight worrying how the USA will be taken down by this leak of information.

bigmouth: I think u work in the financial sector thats why u so bent on him been arrested.U better start getting another degree cos when he is arrested the financial sector is coming down,Big time.

And why is the financial sector "coming down, Big time" a good thing? What's wrong with it? Why are you so happy something so malicious is happening to it? Answer: you are just so blinded by anti-America disease, that is why.

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If the US does anything bad to him then it just proves the point he is trying to make that governments are often surreptitiously secretly nefarious.

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I know this sounds crazy, but I like the odds. If I was w/ Assange, there might be an outside chance of escape and extend. A bunch of weekend hackers vs. the complete foreign policy apparatus of the US. Survival leads to glory.

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Mikehuntez.

If I am anti American,I will not have spent my 100k on my American degree.

If u think this financial system is not corrupt then u dont know the system.

I am against oppresive,hypocritic and secretive govts all around e globe. If there is nothing to hide, leave him alone

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If the US does anything bad to him then it just proves the point he is trying to make that governments are often surreptitiously secretly nefarious.

So, if someone attacks the US, the US should not respond? Is that the case you are trying to make?

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bigmouth,

I don't care how corrupt you think the financial system is, cheering for someone to "take it down" seems to me like you wish ill on many people in the States. Do you want people to lose their money if the system is taken down? Even a 100k degree doesn't seem to teach you that subverting your country's institutions is a crime. That's what they call it when you do this to your own country. Since Assange is not American, and you have that 100k dollar degree, please tell me what they call it that case.

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mikehuntez, taking down any country's system on the contrary becomes the duty of every thinking and sensible human when that system is corrupt beyond repair and when it has clearly become an obstacle to human progress.

every important improvement in human morality, philosophy, politics, science etc. has emerged via struggling against prevalent superstitions and traditions embodied in the institutions of the state etc.

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Do you want people to lose their money if the system is taken down? Even a 100k degree doesn't seem to teach you that subverting your country's institutions is a crime. That's what they call it when you do this to your own country

Ask the banking executives that flooded the world with bad loans and leant out much much more than what they had on their balance sheets in terms of actual assets was good for the good ol' American peoples wallets.

Yet they still exist and enjoy billions in payments from the GOV to bail them out. The US GOV who borrows from the banks to pay the banks and then uses your tax dollars to pay back the loan. The tax dollars of those who have lost their jobs and homes.

I for one would be glad to see their filthy, rotten, laundry hung up all over the world. It should lead to some kind of deep change and if that is at the expense of the system that propelled it, then its only fitting.

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the very american revolution that established your republic was taking the system down wasn't it?! it shook the yoke of british imperialism, aristocracy, eclasiastical authority and in short went against all the entrenched interests and prevalent prejudices. it has issued a thoroughly revolutionary proclamation of human rights and equality as self evident and vowed to protect and uphold them.

now another revolution in thinking is necessary more than anything. it is for this end that the info such as wikileaks provides is needed and every progressive thinking human should support the leaks and fervently oppose political hunt on assange.

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The documents obtained by WikiLeaks—only a small fraction of which have been released so far—help expose what is a permanent conspiracy against the democratic rights of the world’s population: from covering up US bombings of civilians in Yemen, to working behind the scenes to obstruct the prosecution of CIA agents guilty of torture, to spying on UN officials in violation of international treaties. Those who are leading the campaign against WikiLeaks are themselves responsible for horrific atrocities. In the face of allegations from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that WikiLeaks had placed lives in danger, Assange gave an appropriate response in an interview with Time magazine. WikiLeaks, he noted, “has never caused an individual … to come to any sort of physical harm or to be wrongly imprisoned and so on. That is a record compared to the organizations that we are trying to expose who have literally been involved in the deaths of hundreds or thousands or, potentially over the course of many years, millions.”

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If the actions of WikiLeaks have helped reveal, in real time, the lies of the American government, they have also exposed the role of the chief propagators of these lies: the American media. For decades, the US government has cultivated the media to the point where it engages in self-censorship as a matter of course, where it does not even blush to declare itself “embedded” with this or that military unit or other state body. The major newspapers regularly clear major articles with the White House and the Pentagon, delaying stories that could be politically harmful. Now, what is supposedly a central obligation of the media—to expose government secrets and provide information to the population—is treated by the media itself as if it were a criminal enterprise.

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The state persecution of Assange—enthusiastically backed by the mass media—is one expression of a far-reaching decay of democracy in the United States and internationally. World governments, led by the United States, are carrying out deeply unpopular policies—the multi-trillion dollar bailout of financial institutions, relentless demands for social austerity and the expanding war and global plunder. The constant proclamations about the need for secrecy, which WikiLeaks has violated by publishing government documents, arises fundamentally from the irreconcilable conflict between the social interests that these governments represent and the needs and aspirations of the vast majority of the population. The persecution of Assange in an effort to silence this exposure is not simply a threat to one individual. The methods employed against WikiLeaks will be used against all opposition to the policies of the corporate and financial aristocracy.

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I really loved USA but was gradually disappointed because of wars against other countries. Now USA is in war with democracy and freedom of speech. What is different between USA and China? Both want to filter information. Sad.

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Julian Assange is one brave man. Not many men are able to do what he did. I hope he survives this crisis and this would be a victory for freedom of speech too.

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The methods employed against WikiLeaks will be used against all opposition to the policies of the corporate and financial aristocracy.

sadly I agree. You can also notice by some of the posts above that many people are already behaving like trained seals. Their default reasoning is no longer to question but to comply. They think they are free but they are slaves to the banks and their debt based money system. A system initially rejected as a control mechanism from Europe that US presidents and many more were killed for some 200 years back.

Maybe the dirt Assange has is an orchestrated financial crises (been done many times before by US and European banks) to suit the agenda of the ruling elite.

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I know this sounds crazy, but I like the odds. If I was w/ Assange, there might be an outside chance of escape and extend. A bunch of weekend hackers vs. the complete foreign policy apparatus of the US. Survival leads to glory.

Please help him then :)

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now another revolution in thinking is necessary more than anything. it is for this end that the info such as wikileaks provides is needed and every progressive thinking human should support the leaks and fervently oppose political hunt on assange.

So, what you're saying is, that you support anarchy. You think there should be no law, that people like Assange, as long as you think they are working for the 'progressive' good, they should be untouchable, regardless of what they do. So if I was to go and murder your children, as long as I leak a bunch of asinine documents about the US, then it would be all right? Or perhaps if I have the right political leanings, then it would be fine too right? Good to know where your priorities are.

sadly I agree. You can also notice by some of the posts above that many people are already behaving like trained seals. Their default reasoning is no longer to question but to comply. They think they are free but they are slaves to the banks and their debt based money system. A system initially rejected as a control mechanism from Europe that US presidents and many more were killed for some 200 years back.

Whats pathetic about this response, is that it totally and completely disregards reality. It says, I don't care what happens, the place is corrupt, so lets destroy it. You don't care about the consequences of such actions, you don't care about the lives it would destroy. You don't care that such actions could lead to wars, which could cost millions of lives. No, all these people seem to care about, is that they don't like the 'system' and so anyone who acts against it, is a hero to them. I'm sure that the many Afghans who aided the US efforts against the Taliban, who were exposed by this piece of used toilet paper, sure appreciate his actions as well. Perhaps you could emphasize with them and their families, those of them that haven't already been murdered by the Taliban that is.

Please help him then :)

Indeed, help him find the noose he so richly deserves.

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no one supports anarchy and lawlessness. but you will not find me blindly supporting oppressive laws designed to protect the privileged few over majority also. this is the point wikileaks has made and made it very strongly - the interests of the elite are completely opposed to those of the majority! this fact is covered for by most "media" and it is precisely this that is the biggest point these leaks have proven.

the very american revolution that established your republic was taking the system down wasn't it?! you made people's militias to rise in arms against what was then the legal state army. it shook the yoke of british imperialism, aristocracy, eclasiastical authority and in short went against all the entrenched interests and prevalent prejudices. it has issued a thoroughly revolutionary proclamation of human rights and equality as self evident and vowed to protect and uphold them.

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no one supports anarchy and lawlessness. but you will not find me blindly supporting oppressive laws designed to protect the privileged few over majority also.

I guess that also includes you would not support those oppressives laws that forbides your own privileged private information also from being posted on the net.

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Whats pathetic about this response, is that it totally and completely disregards reality. It says, I don't care what happens, the place is corrupt, so lets destroy it. You don't care about the consequences of such actions, you don't care about the lives it would destroy. You don't care that such actions could lead to wars, which could cost millions of lives. No, all these people seem to care about, is that they don't like the 'system' and so anyone who acts against it, is a hero to them. I'm sure that the many Afghans who aided the US efforts against the Taliban, who were exposed by this piece of used toilet paper, sure appreciate his actions as well. Perhaps you could emphasize with them and their families, those of them that haven't already been murdered by the Taliban that is.

what's pathetic about this response is the cowardice in facing truth and consequences backed up by the willingness to participate and spread ignorance, fear, and corruption.

**Also in London, protests disrupted the visit of Sri Lanka's president amid mounting outrage over allegations published by WikiLeaks that he was directly involved in the massacre of thousands of civilians at the end of that country's civil war.

Peter Lloyd reports.

(Protestors with Tamil flags shout)

PETER LLOYD, REPORTER: Hundreds of British Tamils took to the streets outside a London hotel where Sri Lanka's president is staying.**

Please go on to tell me how this is bad and evil?

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putting information of a private citizen and that of public servants in the same category? these people influence the lives of billions with their backroom secret dealings and alliances they are too afraid of to admit to their own populations! they don't put their own lives on line when starting a war or civil unrest, they count on all of us and our children to fight in their interest! all the while being paid by our taxes and claiming all their doings are for our benefit and with our interests in mind!!! it is this duplicity, this shameless scam that is coming to light. i can see no correlation whatsoever with private info of a regular citizen being breached.

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i can see no correlation whatsoever with private info of a regular citizen being breached.

Cool...post yours first to establish your 'bona fides' on thr net for all to see.

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Like him or hate him, there's no doubting that Julian Assange has rattled some pretty big cages. The U.S. is contemplating going after him. Swedish authorities are looking for him and interpol is looking for him.

That's a lot of law enforcement for a rape charge.

Yep, some big cages have been rattled.

Taka

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Like him or hate him, there's no doubting that Julian Assange has rattled some pretty big cages.

Kinda like compromising making life a little more complicated if your average Sailor was sailing in the Persian gulf eh Taka.

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WikiLeaks has turned the governments sales pitch, "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" used all over the world for erosion of liberties in the name of security, against them.

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Sarah Palin likened Assange to an al-Qaida propagandist and accused him, without offering any proof, of having “blood on his hands.” [...] “Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaida and Taliban leaders?” she asked in a message posted to her Facebook page. [...] “I think Assange should be assassinated, actually,” Tom Flanagan [...] told the CBC.

There is something very wrong in the US (and Alaska).

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mikehuntez declared:

And you have read all that yourself in these documents?

Then, TimRissert continued:

No, he doesn't. Assange represents himself, ridden by his own massive narcissism and some weird messiah complex.

mikehuntez keeps questioning where people have gotten their information - as if it was hidden. Mike, it's all over the internet and the WikiLeaks documents have been paraphrased for anyone, even someone like you, to digest easily.

TimRussert seems to think Assagne is not entirely sane. Far from it, Tim old chum. Assagne believes in truth and accountability. You may be happy to be led by the nose through life, but that doesn't go for the rest of us.

That the USA is fighting on the ground (not just with drones, that was widely known) in Pakistan and Yemen while agreeing with the leaders of those countries to cover it up deserves to be known. They have far wider inplications, and are killing far more innocents than the leaks possibly could.

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LoveUSA at 09:37 PM JST - 3rd December "Julian Assange is one brave man. Not many men are able to do what he did. I hope he survives this crisis and this would be a victory for freedom of speech too."

Really? Personally, I hope he is shot through his brain by a hollow point bullet at 300 meters.

The guy's a loser, and he WILL lose.

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I don't have a problem with information being leaked so long as it is done responsibly, which wikileaks has not show themselves to do. It would be like releasing documents revealing corruption within the department of justice but including the names of people in the witness protection program. Encouraging the spread of useful information is good, revealing information that has a very real chance of getting someone killed is bad.

Assagne believes in truth and accountability. You may be happy to be led by the nose through life, but that doesn't go for the rest of us.

They could have at lest paid some respect to the people they were ousting to the Taliban. Instead they revealed the names of Afghans and intelligence workers, now they can be held accountable for their actions...to the Taliban.

That the USA is fighting on the ground (not just with drones, that was widely known) in Pakistan and Yemen while agreeing with the leaders of those countries to cover it up deserves to be known. They have far wider inplications, and are killing far more innocents than the leaks possibly could.

I'd say its safe to assume that Pakistan and Yemen aren't allowing U.S forces into their country to just run about killing civilians. Those countries receiving our support only accept it because their own ability to deal with the terrorist elements in their lands has been diminished. Those documents dealing with the middle east are actually putting the U.S in a better light, revealing how many nations secretly encourage the U.S's work.

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GJDailleult: One, why is nobody being held accountable for the United States having such clearly inadequate security and procedures in place? Manning had access to stuff that he had no reason to have access to.

It should be pointed out that he didn't necessarily steal the files, he's just passing along information that was stolen and given to him. He couldn't have done what he is doing without the help of Americans.

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TheQuestioned joked:

Those documents dealing with the middle east are actually putting the U.S in a better light

What facts has Wikileaks revealed:

The US pressured Spain over CIA rendition and Guantánamo US diplomats spied on the UN's leadership There is a 'Secret' US war in both Pak and Yemen which all three governments have lied about

Yes, the USA is a positvely glowing example openess, diplomacy and freedom. An example to us all.

Judging by the downtime of the Wikileaks website amongst other things, I'd suggest we've only just scratched the surface - This could well prove to be an interesting chapter in history for future generations, if the world survives that long.

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What facts has Wikileaks revealed:

Other facts conveniently ignored... Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern nations say one thing to their people, and another thing to US Diplomats. Publicly, their greatest concern is Israel, privately, they couldn't give a rats ass about Israel, they care about Iran. Its obvious of course why this is. Israel, isn't really a threat to anyone in the region. Iran however, with its intent to develop nukes, is a huge threat.

China too has conducted backdoor diplomacy. Talking to the US about Japan and Korea. Saying things they would never have said publicly, as it would have enraged their population.

If Assange had been around in the 60s, the world would have ended. Yep, the kind of backroom dealing that so many of you lefties hate, is precisely what Kennedy used, during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Without that, there very likely would have been a war. So you see, openness is one thing, revealing military and diplomatic secrets is another. Assange is criminally responsible for the deaths of Afghan civilians who aided the US efforts against the Taliban. Aside from that, he is guilty of Espionage, and conspiracy to commit espionage. I wonder though, when the US will finally find their balls and actually charge him. All I can say, is had Bush been President, he would never have gotten to do a second release, much less a third.

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WikiLeaks has turned the governments sales pitch, "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" used all over the world for erosion of liberties in the name of security, against them.

That's a good point for a lot of the posts. If there is proof that Berlosconi accepted kickbacks, impeach him. If the president of Sri Lanka ordered the massacre of civilians impeach him and send him to the Hague for war crimes. On the other hand, discussion of what to do if NK collapses and what China thinks of the dear little leader does nothing but stir up trouble. If the dear brat decides to move to protect his selfish interests there will be a mess.

I think that's the difference between what should be leaked and what shouldn't. In some cases Assange should have posted the stuff. In others he is just being irresponsible.

For example, if a friend confided in you that so-and-so's dress was hideous, would you tattle? Good way to complicate a friendship. But if you were told that so-and-so robbed a bank yesterday do you call the cops? In the latter case I think you would be justified. In the former you are just a rotten "friend."

Assange should consider the importance of the "crime" versus the possible reactions to secret conversations being published. He hasn't, so a lot of people are justifibly (and not so justifiably) upset.

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All I can say, is had bush been President, he would never have gotten to do a second release, much less a third.

Just like bush got bin laden.

Taka

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SuperLib You have a good point, but then who is doing this stealing & who has access to such secret information?

Then to how much of this is bull he or others have dreamed up. Though without question this is causing a lot of trouble in countries all around the world.

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Wow dick dodger is wanted in Nigeria and Assange is wanted in the UK, at the same time. So which will be apprehended and sentenced to the maximum. Dick for his 180m bribe while the head of Halaburton, or Assange for a on again off again rape charge.

By the way which one has done the most damage to world piece?. The guy the does the lying, or the guy that posts the lies.

By the way if both ( read that nigeria wants cheney added) were on interpols most wanted, which one would get the most attention.

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Just like bush got bin laden.

lol, 2 totally different scenarios. One is hiding in a cave, the other isn't.

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Paranoia:

these people influence the lives of billions with their backroom secret dealings and alliances they are too afraid of to admit to their own populations!

Breeds irresponsibility.

AuntyAmerican at 12:37 AM JST - 4th December mikehuntez declared: And you have read all that yourself in these documents? mikehuntez keeps questioning where people have gotten their information - as if it was hidden. Mike, it's all over the internet and the WikiLeaks documents have been paraphrased for anyone, even someone like you, to digest easily.

That's not a declaration. It's a question. One that wasn't answered. Answer deferred because the information is "all over the internet" apparently but I couldn't be pointed to a specific one to support your beliefs. Instead you are relying on a paraphrase of 250,000 documents. Hence you never read one did you?

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So Assange is irresponsible for publishing info but USA was responsible when ordering for the DNA and stuff of diplomats?

Whether he lives OR not,he has done a great service to humanity than BUSH

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might as well merge China-America. Their journey to the dark side is now complete

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It should be pointed out that he didn't necessarily steal the files, he's just passing along information that was stolen and given to him.

I was talking about Private Manning, not Assange. Manning is alleged to have stolen the files and passed them on to Wikileaks. Also, it appears that Manning was only caught because he shot his mouth off on the internet. Otherwise he would have got away with it.

This is a whole other issue from the publishing of the leaks. The system itself is not secure. We are supposed to believe that of the millions of people with top secret and secret clearances, Manning is the only person who figured that out?

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molenir,

"All I can say, is had bush been President, he would never have gotten to do a second release, much less a third."

Heh, how many times must I tell you Chuck Norris is just an aging actor?

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Dear America.

Please stop acting like China.

That is all.

Peace

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Hikozaemon: my thought exactly. Except, the US has acted like China lots in the past. Only more under the radar.

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Dear America. Please stop acting like China.

So well put! The problem HERE is that the US was sloppy / hell IS STILL sloppy about the security of its own cables. And to think that the US was threatening Spain about its own judicial processes concerning Bush. Is there no limit to this arrogance!? On another note--it seems that if you are becoming famous, you had better secretly film your sex with other women so that they can not later on say that they were raped. Just saying!

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So is the KGB. So is Al Qaeda. So is the PLA. So is Hezbollah. It's a dangerous world.

According to tim and all other right-wingers, it is a DANGEROUS world and so we must be as bad as the KGB. Indeed, we have to be worse than the KGB because we have to WIN! And to win, you have to be worse than they are. It is the way the world is. No virtue. No honor. No vision. No progress allowed. Get it! Whew! It is a hard, hard world these people live in. I call it Hell myself.

Really? Personally, I hope he is shot through his brain by a hollow point bullet at 300 meters. The guy's a loser, and he WILL lose.

The only loser here is the individual who wants to live in the dark and NOT know the truth. That is a LOSER. Very Soviet or North Korean! As if the truth is so bad you want that individual dead for telling you how it really is. Wow! Speaks volumes about your life!!!

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All these fools speaking out as if the man was the bad guy. He's not though, he's the good guy. If governments really do start going all out to take out the good guy, we'll know for sure that the world is totally screwed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What facts has Wikileaks revealed:

The US pressured Spain over CIA rendition and Guantánamo US diplomats spied on the UN's leadership There is a 'Secret' US war in both Pak and Yemen which all three governments have lied about Yes, the USA is a positvely glowing example openess, diplomacy and freedom. An example to us all.

None of that is particularly surprising though. Getting dirt on foreign leaders has been standard procedure for longer than the U.S has existed as a country and U.S action in Pakistan has been fairly common knowledge for some time now.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I applaud Assange - my fellow Aussie - for opening up a few peoples minds at least, and maybe encouraging them to think a little more. If the whole thing is scaring the pants off some world "leaders" and bureaucrats - then that can't be a bad thing.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

obvious to all now that democracy in the west is just a sham.

man arrested because his condom burst during sex. 1st woman was with him happily the day after the alleged incident and even tweeted how happy she was to be with such smart people. she goes to the police 5 days later after discovering he had sex with another woman at same conference. and lo what a surprise,she has written on the net a guid on how to get even on cheating boyfriends

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We are not safe until WikiTerror is shut down.

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I lost any sympathy for him when he proceeded to publish lists of suitable terrorist targets.

That is a different ballgame from embarrassing politicians.

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Noam Chomsky is publicly supporting him. cap doffed

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