Norway PM urges culture of tolerance

I can't believe some of you are equating this lone gunman and his killing spree with Al-Qaida and 9/11. You actually think the two are the same scope and global significance? Get a grip.

Good message. That potential prison sentence still doesn't sit well with me though, at least if he ever does get released he'll get a nice fast entry into every other country's do not admit list.

This categorical rejection of violence marks one of the major differences between the liberal philosophy and that of the right wing.

Noticed you left out the first sentence of that quote. Anyway are we talking modern progressivism or classical liberalism? Because under classical liberalism one would be totally justified in using violence to protect their freedoms and even progressivism isn't beyond using force to impose social or economic change. Both also support the use of revolution as a means of achieving those freedoms, and while peaceful is preferred an armed one is to be discounted inherently.

I can't believe some of you are equating this lone gunman and his killing spree with Al-Qaida and 9/11. You actually think the two are the same scope and global significance? Get a grip.

People like to compare tragedies when in reality such events impact different cultures in different ways. In Norway it was a (presumably) single gunman with a clear intent against a very specific aspect of Norwegian culture that was captured and detained soon after the event. 9/11 was perpetrated by several members of a massive support network that opposed the U.S's very existence and whose leaders were protected by the Afghan government. The two events are only comparable in that the intent of the perpetrator was to cause suffering, beyond that I agree that the size and scope are completely different.

spidapig24; he facts are like this, In the US they have death sentence and increasingly harsh sentences. hey ahve a higher perecnt of adult population in prison than any other country, the country is a crime ridden cesspit. In Norway they treat crime in the opposite manner an dhave low crime and a better quality of life.

The old fashioned methods of harsh piunishments have failed society, the victims and the criminals. Deeluded for wanting him dead certainly, immmoral definitely.

Kudos to the Norwegian government for its stance and calls for more openness instead of taking the easy, cowardly road of cutting civil liberties and using hate tactics. I believe this will help prevent from similar incidents.

That said, boy did this Norwegian guy sure put a dent in his cause instead of seeking the same martyrdom he professes to be so utterly against. Needless to say the guy's a loon, but he's now outed the Knights of Templar (old or new) to be his source of 'inspiration'. There can never again be any argument that "Muslims are terrorists" without the obvious hypocritical contradiction, and this guy will probably not survive prison.

hoipolooi

Maybe... but that will be because Norway chose not to wage an extended war

Who would they go to war against - themselves?

"Tolerance" sounds great. However, as Thomas Mann said: Tolerance against intolerance is a crime.

Apparently the maximum the murderer can get is 30 years, if tried for crimes against humanity. Otherwise he'll get 21 years.

The Norwegians are under the impression that he can be rehabilitated and can be a potential benefit to society.

He's already of extremely good use to society -- as an example of something not to be emulated. Maybe after his release several decades from now we'll hear from him again and see if he's been rehabilitated.

Back on topic please.

The "classical" thinkers of the past did not have to confront the miniaturization and consequences of atomic weaponry, or other technically-advanced weapons which places unimaginable (for them) lethal capacity in the hands of a few.

I believe in the 1700's they considered the advent of mortars to be the most terrifying weapon of war imaginable. The leaver action rifle was similarly feared and the Gatling gun was supposed to end warfare all together then the atom bomb was supposed to do it. We will always have war, its easy to start and neigh impossible to stop until one side or the other stops struggling. Rules and norms can make sure a man fights the correct person with the correct weapons but it can't make him stop.

Breivik saw a greater than one-percent chance of a threat to his Norway and decided to put his right-wing philosophy of justified violent reaction into practice.

That’s why we have police. One man does not a revolution make. There's no accounting for the one in a million (or in this case one in nine million) chance of someone going crazy no matter what their reasoning is.

For anyone on the left who believes that violent revolution is justified, there are dozens more who reject violence entirely as an option.

Then they submit to the authority of those who would use violence. There are many things worth dying for and a few worth killing for but the merit of our actions are ultimately judged through the eyes of history and the society in which we exist. Breivik felt multiculturalism was destroying his country and he picked a road that he felt would change things, he was wrong and instead killed dozens that had nothing to do with the perceived problem.

Norway will not use fear to introduce childish laws, like the death sentence or loss of liberties for security reasons. Of course this man can get better and be usefull to society, what is this the dark ages?

You think death is a childish matter? And whose liberties would be lost for security reasons, those of the average law-abiding citizen, or those of the average mass-murderer?

Many countries have moved away from that and encourage free thinking and don't have childish labels, this is why they are better countries to live in.

Yes, much better. Your new neighbor could be an ex-con who slaughtered 75 people. And now he wants to date your daughter, and won't take "no" for an answer.

And again, what is "childish" about this? Are you laughing or something? 75 people were brutally slain. You think 21 years in a university dorm is an appropriate reaction? Why not 17 or 13 or for that matter ZERO. Why not just send him to counseling, or back to grade school? After all he obviously just hasn't learned to play with other kids nicely, that's all.

Peace 'n love, man, peace 'n love.

You need to get your mind out of the 1700s, where there was no mutually assured destruction.

My point being that even when we think we've created something too aweful to use someone makes something bigger and deadlier. Now anything nuke like is to big to be viable so we're going to start seeing the defense industry get more and more creative. The navy's rail guns are an interesting devolopment, among others.

We will always have tension and conflict. War is simply a choice made by men.

And people are, by nature, falible. It need not be Europe. I've got my eyes on Asia. To many people, not enough resources, cultural differences, whatever floats your boat. China and India are fast becoming a major powers in the world and with newfound power always comes the need to exert influence. Having two fast developing powers in the same hemisphere is a geopolitical powder keg if I ever saw one.

If so, then only for the time being, equipped with the tools of non-violent resistance.

Different tools for different circumstances. Non-violence works when the government in control actually gives a rip but in countries like North Korea or any number of African countries they'd just kill you. If an NK group started an armed, pro-democracy revolution within lil-Kim's playground I could think of very few people that would be overly upset on account of their method.

sourpuss; What ridiculous comments. He is going to prison not college.You are another who seems to see things in black and white, i did not say death is childish but laws are and America has many childish and bad laws that Norway will not follow.

You Americans don't get it do you? When your liberies ae taken ehn whether you are inncocent or gulity of anything, then you are all victims of tyranny.

Why would i mind if the man married a member of my family upon his release, when he is deemed well? Seem slike my progressive thinking is giving many here a headache, in the last 23 weeks i have been labelled Victorian Dad, 1950's man, a Liberal and now a hippy. Thinking outside the box is giving some of you serious problems. try it, you may enjoy.

Steve, if you're so afraid of tyranny and loss of liberties, how about the individual who took away the liberties of 75 people while tyrannically ending their lives? You would let this tyrant marry your daughter all because he's "deemed well?"

Isn't a psychiatrist just a tyrant who has the power to deem some "well" and others not? Someone who controls liberties? Why would you trust such a tyrant with judging another tyrant well enough to marry your daughter?

Thinking outside the box is not just being a contrarian, you know that right? At some point you have to actually be reasonable to be taken seriously.

ps. I'm not American.

One psychiatrist would not hold the sufficient power to release him. The criminal will be punished and sent to prison for his crimes where he is punished by losing his freedoms and rehabilitated so he can function well in society.

If you think a psychiatrist is a tyrant who can take away liberties you need to get with the 21st century. In developed countries one shrink is not enough to commit a person these days.

I am reasonable at all times.

Spidapig; So we convict him of being a criminal and we should encourage the stae to be criminals an dmurder the man for revenge. Revenge and eath will not bring back the victims from the dead, nothing will, he muckraking media make us want revenge, want him to die etc, for what? to amke us feel better i suppose, to make us feel superior.

The man has problems of course and will lose his liberty. Anyone who wishes death on another human is deluded.

Believing in the powers of rehabilitation is something of the 20th century, my friend. It's all coming out now that genes have a much stronger signal than environment. The psychology industry bamboozled the general public with their agenda of political correctness last century. And whether one or a dozen, psychiatrists have far too much power to be trusted, more-so because they are all in on the same con-game.

You use the term "developed countries" as if it is necessarily something good, when in fact all it means is that people have more elaborately "developed" lies. Norway may very well be the most self-deceiving society in the world today if they think that 21 years in prison for 75 murders actually means something.

If one is going to punish an individual, one must punish at a level commensurate with the crime, no more and no less so. It is unfortunate that this individual cannot be shot and blown up, to death, 75 time while being brought back to life 74.

steve@CPFC

Spidapig; So we convict him of being a criminal and we should encourage the stae to be criminals an dmurder the man for revenge. Revenge and eath will not bring back the victims from the dead, nothing will,

Did l actually say in my post that l wanted him dead? However yes that would be a good start, so l guess that makes me deluded in your opinion. Guess what l can live with that.

he muckraking media make us want revenge, want him to die etc, for what? to amke us feel better i suppose, to make us feel superior.

Not to make us feel superior, just to feel that if you kill many many people you get more of a punishment than a jail sentence. I am talking purely about people who take others lives knowingly and willingly here.

The man has problems of course and will lose his liberty. Anyone who wishes death on another human is deluded.

Well call me deluded. I guess that anyone who thinks he is ill and can be treated is the most sane person to go around calling names though!

steve@CPFC

In the US they have death sentence and increasingly harsh sentences. hey ahve a higher perecnt of adult population in prison than any other country, the country is a crime ridden cesspit.

Couldnt agree more the US is a crime ridden cesspit. But look at the population and the problems that the US has.

The old fashioned methods of harsh piunishments have failed society, the victims and the criminals. Deeluded for wanting him dead certainly, immmoral definitely.

Ok so call me immoral and deluded for believing a man who knowingly kills 76 people should get as a minimum of life in prison and a maximum of death for the crimes he committed. I could easily say what l think of your oh he's sick and will get better statements. But they are your opinions no matter how crazy, deluded and ridiculous l think they are.

stevepcfc

In the US they have death sentence and increasingly harsh sentences. hey ahve a higher perecnt of adult population in prison than any other country, the country is a crime ridden cesspit. In Norway they treat crime in the opposite manner an dhave low crime and a better quality of life.

Apples and oranges there, steve buddy. California alone has 50 000 convicts housed in its state penitentiary system who are Mexican nationals, costing California taxpayers 36,000/per year for each illegal alien.

Capital punishment is a states rights issue in the US. Many states do not have the death penalty.

Funny how people like you never want to take a close look at just who is in jail and why.

Maybe you should examine incarceration rates for Americans of Norwegian descent to get a better picture of things...

steve@CPFC

Wasn't it Obama who was calling this an act of terror the type of which we all have to fight?

LOL. Exactly.

chewitup

Do you actually think al-Quaida's size and scope warranted invading and occupying two countries?

That wasn't the question, although it does allow you to go off on your tangent about the correctness of the US (and its allies') reaction to 9/11. The question was whether 9/11 and this recent Oslo incident are of the same size and scope. And the answer is NO. You won't be seeing much reported on this crime in six months time outside Scandinavia.

All readers back on topic please. Please read the story again before posting any further comments.

Anyway are we talking modern progressivism or classical liberalism? Because under classical liberalism ...

I'm not going to talk about an "-ism" other than whatever -ism it may be called that prompts Norway to reject most conscious options towards violence in its society. I claim it is part of a modern liberal philosophy.

The "classical" thinkers of the past did not have to confront the miniaturization and consequences of atomic weaponry, or other technically-advanced weapons which places unimaginable (for them) lethal capacity in the hands of a few. Had they been so confronted, they would have had to come to agree with the American general who said, "Either man must find a way to abolish war (ie violence), or war will abolish man." Naturally, I believe this outlook is reflected in the words and actions that Norway's leadership is taking.

Both also support the use of revolution as a means of achieving those freedoms, and while peaceful is preferred an armed one is to be discounted inherently.

The right wing believes in the use of violence to the point where they believe they can apply it pre-emptively even if there's a one-percent chance of a threat. That is extreme. Obviously, Breivik saw a greater than one-percent chance of a threat to his Norway and decided to put his right-wing philosophy of justified violent reaction into practice.

For anyone on the left who believes that violent revolution is justified, there are dozens more who reject violence entirely as an option. The right has no counter-balancing force within its ranks.

Funny, if this guy was a muslim it would be "TERRORIST" written all over it. Since it's some white guy...what exactly do we call him? Assailant? Gunman?

I believe in the 1700's they considered the advent of mortars to be the most terrifying weapon of war imaginable.

LOL!!! Sure they did. They were afraid of the harbinger of the kind of weaponry that mortars suggested. It would take a few centuries for their fears to come to fruition. They might have, in their ignorance, believed that a mortar could wipe out the population of a major city and leave it uninhabitable for centuries. What you seem to be implying is that because they couldn't properly gauge the real threat posed by mortars, et al, it means that we can discount the threat posed by today's modern weapons. You need to get your mind out of the 1700s, where there was no mutually assured destruction.

We will always have war,

We will always have tension and conflict. War is simply a choice made by men. The odds of Norway, Germany, France, England, or any other major European country going to war with each other now or anytime in the future are nil -- and have been for decades, after two of the most brutal conflicts in history. War is not inevitable because we have so many people and nations like Norway to set the example -- reinforcing their culture of tolerance.

Then they submit to the authority of those who would use violence.

If so, then only for the time being, equipped with the tools of non-violent resistance.

steve@CPFC

The criminal will be punished and sent to prison for his crimes where he is punished by losing his freedoms and rehabilitated so he can function well in society.

Which is a lot better deal than his 76 victims received. He gets a prison sentence and released to live his life out. They got a death sentence. This guy handed out 76 death sentences on innocent people, and people are worried about HIS civil liberties. Wow this world is seriously deluded.

Spidapig24; You are getting there a bit. THe Problmes the US has are by punishing individuals harshly for becoming what they are due to society and environment. Instead of all teh blame onindividuals we should look at what makes these people the way they are, the root cause,and improve society. Whne we are rational and look at crime without emotionally baggae we can improve the sytem and society, Norway is a world leader in this and will not make restricitive laws on the whole population due to one criminal. his is a one off, not the start of a Christian right jihad. Norway is doing the right thing.

Death sentences and life without parole belongs in a past time, They don't work don't reduce crime and are inhumane.

USNinJapan2:

The question was whether 9/11 and this recent Oslo incident are of the same size and scope. And the answer is NO. You won't be seeing much reported on this crime in six months time outside Scandinavia.

Maybe... but that will be because Norway chose not to wage an extended war or employ other violent / invasive measures with their own citizens and other countries over these events.

But realistically, I think that we'll start seeing all the nice analysis results that will be done on Breivik and his manifesto being released from Norway (where they are hopefully out of the sphere of influence by certain interests who wouldn't like what those results may reveal).

America is not Norway. Norway is not America

quote of the week!

BV; The average American will be either Conservative or Liberal and parrot everything fed by the media they follow like blinkered sheep. Many countries have moved away from that and encourage free thinking and don't have childish labels, this is why they are better countries to live in.

Wow. The first few paragraphs of this article read like a dream. Norway is using Brevik's actions as a catalyst to strengthen their cause for a more free, open and tolerant Norway.

Have you heard of any politician who has said something like this and is willing to back it up? I know I haven't.

While I'd like to quote the whole bit and praise it I'll restrict myself to this little tidbit:

Stoltenberg’s promise in the face of twin attacks signaled a contrast to the U.S. response after the 9/11 attacks, when Washington gave more leeway to perform wiretaps and search records.

It reflects the difference between the two countries’ approaches to terrorism. The U.S. has been frustrated by what it considers Scandinavia’s lack of aggressive investigation and arrests.

This says it all.

Please continue to lead by example, Norway. Please continue to show the world (especially the US) the correct way to deal with terrorism and right-wing anti-multiculturalism. Please continue to show the people of the world just what is possible in a free, open and tolerant multicultural society. Breivik's victims will not have died in vain!

It reflects the difference between the two countries’ approaches to terrorism. The U.S. has been frustrated by what it considers Scandinavia’s lack of aggressive investigation and arrests.

The U.S. miserably failed the test of its espoused values. And, like all losers, the U.S. feels "frustrated" that others won't join them in failure.

I applaud Norway for passing this first hurdle with flying colors while emotions are still so high.

What is not legitimate is to try to implement those extreme views by using violence,” he said in English.

This categorical rejection of violence marks one of the major differences between the liberal philosophy and that of the right wing.

The culture of gun ownership was inheritaged from the second ammendment of US constitution, so if one day America not easing that 'rights to own guns' and the world shall never immune from these 'one man militan't killing spree!

The question was whether 9/11 and this recent Oslo incident are of the same size and scope. And the answer is NO.

The actual question is whether the two were similar in nature: heinous events demanding a response. The US kneejerk response to just about any crisis or problem is to declare war on it. War on poverty, war on drugs, war on crime, war on terror, preemptive war, war on this, war on that. America is now in a constant state of war.

Had the attack on Norway been of the Al Qaeda-type, they would have still have responded in a way that embraces tolerance and increases freedoms and democracy rather than subverts and erodes them.

USNinJapan2; Wasn't it Obama who was calling this an act of terror the type of which we all have to fight?

You actually think the two are the same scope and global significance?

Yes, get a grip on reality. You've obviously lost it.

If Al Qaeda hijacked five Cessna's and flew them into buildings causing minor damage, would the U.S. have reacted with a "global war on terror," gutting elements of the bill of rights with warrant-less wiretaps on U.S. citizens, approved the use of torture, forced everyone boarding an airplane to everything short of a cavity search, etc., etc.? No.

Because the U.S. was stupidly complacent in the face of a hijacker picked up by the FBI nearly a month prior to the attacks out of flight school, never having implemented recommendations for severely limiting access to cockpits of large passenger aircraft, approving the construction of super-tall buildings that couldn't withstand the impact of an aircraft (the way the Empire State Building did when a bomber crashed into it), we allowed ourselves to become fully entranced by the horrific drama of that terrible day. And so we grossly over-reacted to the actual threat.

Al Qaeda did not require a multi-trillion dollar response -- which is what the wars and the ongoing medical treatments of thousands of wounded military veterans are going to cost this nation.

We Americans like to talk a good game about "freedom" and "liberty." Courageous, highly-principled Norway leaves us in the dust. (Heck, Canada's way ahead of us too.) But hey, Norway doesn't have a news channel promoting fear with constant crawls about violence and terror alerts and the graphic of a Norwegian flag constantly waving as if to mesmerize a Pavlovian audience.

You actually think the two are the same scope and global significance?

Do you actually think al-Quaida's size and scope warranted invading and occupying two countries?

There is nothing to suggest that Norway would not have gone after al-Quaida the same as it did Breivik; ready for violence. But if Norway reacted in proportion to America reacting to 9/11 they would have riddled Breivik full of holes before getting the full story, then expanded police powers in an effort to track down his compatriots and gone on a campaign of kicking in doors of anyone who knew him, shooting a few in the process and having several handy excuses for doing so.

The point is that America not only reached for the gun, but seriously over-reacted and fed the trolls in the process. Norway refuses to over-react and feed the trolls.

As i stated a few days ago, Norway will not use fear to introduce childish laws, like the death sentence or loss of liberties for security reasons. Of course this man can get better and be usefull to society, what is this the dark ages?

Of course this is a tagedy and shock for the people of Norway but as a more menatlly stable people than say your average American, they will not allow one man to change their ways of life.