Norway horror: 91 die in camp shooting, 7 in blast

It's a bit difficult to wrap your head around. A bomb goes off near government buildings on a holiday, then someone pretends to be a cop of shoots kids at a camp?

The Scandinavian countries thought they were immume from this type of bombing. Norway has to take this matter seriously and they know it can happen anywhere. There need consult with neighboring countries like Sweden and Finland, and present the evidence to NATO countries to find mutual solutions to counter terrorist. One country cannot do it alone, and it's a worldwide problem.

This was just awful. The pictures on CNN are so graphic. Just shocking.

Why on earth is the comment about "It is not an Islamic terrorist group" mentioned??? There is no need to bring religion into the issue. A case of a crazy guy who was pissed off at something but for the western media to quickly jump and comment that it isn't Muslim terrorists just shows how badly we are at assuming blame. Pathetic.

RIP for all those who have been killed and I hope their families are able to overcome such a tragedy.

Terrible stuff for our Norewgian friends to have to go through.

tmarie, there was talk in recent days about possible islamic extremists planning terrorist attacks in Norway in the media, I guess that might have something to do with it. (Of course, if Al Qaeda members were offended then... I don't give a damn anyway.)

tmarie Jul. 23, 2011 - 09:13AM JST. Why on earth is the comment about "It is not an Islamic terrorist group" mentioned??? There is no need to bring religion into the issue.

This is nothing new. After the Oklahoma bombing that killed 168 people, many members of the media, the U.S. government and the public jumped to the conclusion that Islamic extremists were responsible. Truth was that Islamic extremist had nothing to do with it. Timothy McVay was responsible.

I was just watching the John Key / Obama press conference in the Oval office, Obama and Key both (with only initial reports at hand) seem to assume the horrible incident to potential international terrorism too: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5330471/John-Key-meets-Barack-Obama-at-White-House

Perhaps a perverse side-effect of groups such as al Qaeda is that local intelligence agencies take their eyes off the ball (or one of the balls, anyway)?

"this peaceful nation"

I wonder what other nations qualify to be a "peaceful nation"...

Crazy world we live in.. may he get caught and be punished,

may he get caught and be punished,

He's been arrested according to the article.

Elise, whose father, Vidar Myhre...

Unless she has a differet name than her father...

tmarie: "Why on earth is the comment about "It is not an Islamic terrorist group" mentioned??? There is no need to bring religion into the issue."

The times we live in, sadly. I agree it should NOT be the case, but a lot of people will hear about this kind of news and automatically think it's the work of Islamic terrorists, with or without evidence, which fuels a lot of anger on both sides.

Anyway, absolutely horrible stuff. RIP to all the victims and my thoughts go out to the many, many family members who lost people, as well as the injured.

have a Pakistani friend (i assumed he is a muslim) working in Trondheim. still remember how he told he was so proud and lucky to be living in Norway as I compared it to Japanese environment. today must be the starting of bad days for him & his family as suspicions grow.

today must be the starting of bad days for him & his family as suspicions grow.

He's a blond-haired, blue-eyed, Nordic Pakistani?

"Norwegian media posted pictures of the blond, blue-eyed Norwegian"

No way! He must have converted to Islam or stepped on Muslim soil or even spoke to a Muslim somehow. The beliefs of some JT posters are going to be shattered otherwise. This is a media conspiracy. It is too difficult to understand that insanity doesn't have a skin color or/and a religion.

You should all cool your jets, and stop your posturing. He could be any kind of nut case, religious or not. No one knows the story behind this monster yet. may he burn forever.

The beliefs of some JT posters are going to be shattered otherwise. This is a media conspiracy.

Weird. Most people read a story like this and are shocked.They pity the victims and their loved ones. But TumbleDry seems positively gleeful,using the tragedy as a chance to set up a few straw men and have a go at 'em.

BreitbartVictorious: "Most people ... like ... TumbleDry."

Well, read again "It is too difficult to understand that insanity doesn't have a skin color or/and a religion." Don't take the part you want to fit your agenda.

"Anders Behring Breivik Identified As Suspect In Norway Shooting"

His photo's here: huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/anders-behring-breivik-id_n_907513.html

He looks like a poster boy for the Hitlerjungend.

Just really sad.

The improvements in technology keep allowing smaller numbers of people to kill greater numbers of people....

Sounds like he played computer games.

So a tall blond Nordic with links to right-wing extremists can cause immediate hatred of Muslims... I guess some Norwegians must feel a bit guilty/paranoid about their countries involvement in blowing up Libyans with high tech weapons.

A very unfriendly reminder of why you not only need to worry about groups like al-Quaida, but also the nuts who blame all Muslilms for such groups.

At least two Islamic extremist groups had tried to take credit for the attacks.

I find this somewhat unlikely. Any agent of any org can pretend to an agent of another org and post a message online and try to take credit for anything. But why would any org discredit themselves by taking credit while not only not being responsible, but being in complete ignorance about who really is?

I can think of several reasons why people might suspect Islamic terrorism. Quite natural. Certainly the first explosion, anyway.

The fact that (according to the article) two Islamic extremist groups gleefully tried to take credit shows it is just their cup of tea, and just what they have been urging people to do.

I hope they will also be prosecuted for the propagation of terrorism as if they had caused it, then they can take all the credit.

Meanwhile I am so sorry that another loonie was able to do this.

Finally, quote: “It seems it’s not Islamic-terror related,” the official said. “This seems like a madman’s work.”

Islamic terror is also madman's work.

A stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring,” President Barack Obama said.

Well said!! But how? Ban all the guns and ammo sales? Was that a kind of violation the second ammendment?

Theres a lot of psychos from all backgrounds.. like in Oklahoma, Columbine, Korean guy with the university attacks, Mansons, Ed Bundy just to name a small few..

foreign terrorists were responsible for the Sep 11, 2001 attacks.

speculation, given the amount of evidence to the contrary.

Awful tragedy. more than 100 dead. Domestic terrorism seems to be overlooked as some say - places like Japan, the US and now sadly Norway have been badly stung by it. Rest in Peace to them all.

From huffington - On a Facebook account that Norwegian media outlets have attributed to Breivik, he describes himself as having Christian, conservative views. He says he enjoys hunting, the games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and lives in Oslo. He also lists political analysis and stock analysis as interests

There's also a picture. Very handsome bloke, just shows looks aren't everything.

Well, now we know that the world is definitely NOT a safe place. Terrorism can strike anywhere, anytime domestic or international. Wherever we go on this planet. We have to remain vigilant aware of our surroundings and not taking anything for granted. It is a really sad and tragic event, camping is the last place you would expect for something like this to happen.

The fact that (according to the article) two Islamic extremist groups gleefully tried to take credit shows it is just their cup of tea, and just what they have been urging people to do.

And the people gleefully take the bait?

I think a much more significant reason is that that is precisely what some people themselves WANT to believe. They don't want to think it could be us. They want to blame a foreign THEM. Its called xenophobia.

And you know, it would have been possible for this guy himself or one of his mates to pose as a spokesman for a Muslim org online and take credit for his own mass slayings. He and his mates might have been sick of sitting around waiting for an attack to complain about and justify their views. After all, one of the groups was previously unheard of!

What a tragedy. Even more tragic when we start blaming the wrong people - even if we think we have the right reasons.

A Chinese ministry researcher, Mei Xinyu, blamed Norway itself, and even posted that on Weibo (China's twitter) until netizens' angry responses forced him to delete his comments.

At least two Islamic extremist groups had tried to take credit for the attacks. Many intelligence analysts said they had never heard of Helpers of Global Jihad, which took initial credit. The Kurdish group Ansar al-Islam also took credit on some jihadist web sites.

.

National police chief Sveinung Sponheim told NRK that the suspected gunman's Internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views...."

.

Now, don't those two stupid groups have egg on their face, haha!

Just heard on LBC that the death toll is almost 100. The man hae been charged for two terrorist attacks and the maximum time he will serve in prison is 21 years.

Mei Xinyu, blamed Norway itself

What does this mean? Did he blame a specific action or law of Norway? Norweigan attitudes? Did he think Norway attacked itself or did he think it was a Norweigian first while everyone else assumed it was a foreigner?

Sure to usher a new level of strict security required to protect citizens from such future attacks. The people will be so thankful for it of course.

The max is 21 years for both, most likely serve 7 or 14 years. The Norwegian Government will not make strict security in the way most western countries have, you can be sure of that.

the maximum time he will serve in prison is 21 years.

@Steve - I know you are a staunch opponent of the death penalty on humanitarian grounds - but can this cowardly killer be "rehabilitated" within those 21 years before he is released? I dont think Norway has a death penalty, but lets hope he has his papers marked "never to be released" - even if the parliament has to pass a specific law for this.

News reports just coming in are that this man is a "Christian Fundamentalist". It seems christian extremists can be equally as dangerous as their islamic brothers...

Let me try posting again~

Chewitup, he blamed Norway for getting what it deserved because China has condemned the Nobel Committee for awarding the Liu Xiaobo the Nobel Peace Prize.

BurakuminDes; Norway does not have death sentence or life without parole. 21 years is the absolute max unless he is considered mad, even then he could be realeased with a year. I think he can be rehabilitated in a Norwegian prison. Their sentences are very low compared to otehr nations, prsioners are treated well, reoffending rates are low as i serious crime. This is a one off the , the live safer than aost Western countries.

steve@CPFC,

You think he can be rehabilitated? He killed 100 people and you think he can be rehabilitated wow thats either wishful thinking or extremely naive

How many people did the president of the United States kill (any one of 'm)?

I saw they were rehabilitated as well, so anything is possible................... LOL

Spidapig24; Norwegian law thinks he can and they are more successfull at having low crime and reoffending than US and UK for instance. It is not the magnitude of the crime that mean how likely the person will reoffend. A burglar may offend all their active lives after many spells inside. A man like this may never commit another crime. There are experts who deal with these matters, he amy in fact be mentally ill and spend no time inside if treatment can make him better. Let'slook for answers and solutions to crime instead of concentrating only on punishments.

steve@CPFC

Norwegian law thinks he can and they are more successfull at having low crime and reoffending than US and UK for instance.

I dont think Norwegian law will cope with this trial and l bet you will see a new law passed

It is not the magnitude of the crime that mean how likely the person will reoffend. A burglar may offend all their active lives after many spells inside. A man like this may never commit another crime.

He wouldnt have to he has killed 100 people after all. And 21 yrs is a joke.

There are experts who deal with these matters, he amy in fact be mentally ill and spend no time inside if treatment can make him better.

He doesnt deserve to get better. The 100 people he killed dont deserve to be dead either. Save the hassles kill the oxygen thief right now!

spidapig24; Firstly the Norwegian overnment has already come out and stated there will be no stricter laws and they think the solution is more democracy. He will be tried under Norwegian law and punished/treated accordingly. I have every faith in their system and their wonderfull penal system. before criticising read up and see why they do so well and Norway is so safe.

The US has the death penalty and the highest precentage of citizens in prison of any country. Which system works best and which country is safer? This poor man needs help and we can learn from him how to prevent further incidents like this. Death penalty and life without parole are ways of dealing with crimes without understanding or solving why criems are committed.

steve@CPFC

This poor man needs help and we can learn from him how to prevent further incidents like this.

Oh my god you say this poor man. What about his poor victims. As for learning from him what the **** can you learn from him? Why he did it. Oh he probably didnt get enough attention as a kid, had bad parents or some crap they use to make people feel sorry for him then the churchy do gooders wil defend him. Oh rather like now l guess

Steve - wow, I've never hear a more soft, liberal attitude toward crime than yours! There are two parts of the equation: rehabilitation and PUNISHMENT. It seems like you think it's all about "rehabilitation". If I go and massacre 100 people, surely I deserve incredibly severe punishment? Anyone who kills 100 people - including kids - does not deserve freedom. PERIOD. Make no mistake - the Norwegian people will demand that he is never released - sane or not. Thousands of peoples lives have been ruined by this evil coward.

"A Norweigian dressed as a police officer gunned down at least 84 people"

This Norweigian has no honor.

"gunned down at least 84 people"[

Maybe the Norweigians will consider introducing the death penalty.

I have every faith in their system and their wonderfull penal system.

OK Steve, you really think he will be rehabilitated in prison and will be released in 7 to 14 years? Personally I think you are being very naive. Under certain circumstances it is appropriate to forgive, but not for this crime, no way. However, I am sure that many of the hundreds of relatives of those he killed are looking forward to his early release, he is a dead man walking.

God, the number keeps rising.

If people seek to harm him this is called revenge and has no place in justice. We need to discover why these people become like this, treat them and find ways to asess others that may also be a danger. Society needs to find why people turn like this not ti lock up forver or kill. What purpose does the death sentence serve but to fuel blood lust and revenge.

This man may be able to help save so many lives when his mind is looked into, starting with discovering everything about him since birth, all life influences etc. Doing this serves us all, locking up forever and kill solves nothing.

China is not relevant to this discussion. Stay on topic please.

All readers, please calm down and discuss this issue as mature adults please.

steve@CPFC

We need to discover why these people become like this, treat them and find ways to asess others that may also be a danger. Society needs to find why people turn like this not ti lock up forver or kill. What purpose does the death sentence serve but to fuel blood lust and revenge.

So basically regardless of the crime your happy to give then a lecture a stern word and some treatment that makes you feel good and let them go. Sorry but your feel good approach is what allows this sort of thing to happen. If you have no viable deterrent then there is no deterrent to criminals. Truly your approach scares me more than what this guy did.

This man may be able to help save so many lives

Definitely if he was executed imagine how many people his organs could save. Thats about the only good thing this man could ever do

when his mind is looked into, starting with discovering everything about him since birth, all life influences etc. Doing this serves us all, locking up forever and kill solves nothing as we can see in America.

Oh no we are back to the bullied at school, bad parents, touchy uncle, or left out of the fun defense. The guy is a sandwich short of a picnic. But rehabilitation isnt the answer in cases like this. This man doesnt deserve to live just like his 100 victims didnt deserve to die.

stove@CPFC; sorry but disagree with you on this. The crime is too severe, this man can never be rehabilated and forgiven. Are you seriously suggesting that you would take the responsibility for releasing him after receiving positive advice from his assessors? I think he should never be released and, if Norway had the death penalty then it would be appropriate in his case. You may cry revenge but I think the death penalty would be justice for those who died.

spidapig24;The punishments i want for these type of people are not what makes me feel good but what work.

I think i can prove my point to you now. You say "If you have no viable deterrent than there is no deterrent to criminals". the USA has the death sentnce and life without parole. It is he maost lawless developed country with the highest percent of population imprisoned. These harsh methods have failed, Norways methods have worked, this is a one off and will be treated as such and i gurantee you now that there will be no loss of liberties for "security reasons".

Harry_Gatto; if i had the authourity and this man was deemed as safe to leave prison i would authorise his release. As for you saying he will be killed by victims relatives i doubt it. He will be provided with a new identity and the press will not be allowed to reveal his identity. The state in most countries including mine (UK) believe that when released thes people need protection as a human right and i agree.

Readers, please stop getting bogged down in what sort of punishment you think the arrested man should receive. Turning the discussion into a debate on the death penalty is veering off topic.

The guy should be studied to see if there's anything we can learn from him. But don't mistake that for sympathy. Maybe this can be the only positive thing he can do with his life from here on out.....perhaps preventing someone else from succeeding.

As for the Islamic angle, it's quite natural for someone's first thoughts to be that it might be Islamic terrorism. Given the fact that 99 times of out of 100 when we've seen pictures like that it's from Middle Eastern terrorists, it's not really a great leap for people to think they might be the cause when they first hear the story. But....I was watching the coverage from the BBC this morning and they were getting into possible angles as to why Islamic terrorists would strike and to me that crossed the line. There's a difference between speculating who and then taking it another step and speculating why.

SuperLib: "As for the Islamic angle, it's quite natural for someone's first thoughts to be that it might be Islamic terrorism."

Only those with racially biased thoughts. My first thought was that some crazy murderer went on a senseless rampage -- I didn't automatically assume the person was a radical Islamist at all.

"Given the fact that 99 times of out of 100 when we've seen pictures like that it's from Middle Eastern terrorists, it's not really a great leap for people to think they might be the cause when they first hear the story."

Um, no it's not. And now that it's been proven for people who think as such that the man was not, much like the guy who shot all those people outside the courthouse last year and others, perhaps it's time said people started rethinking their stance.

"But....I was watching the coverage from the BBC this morning and they were getting into possible angles as to why Islamic terrorists would strike and to me that crossed the line."

Agree with you there. If there's ANY talk about how this is related to Islamic radicals or Muslims in general it should only be about how people have wrongly assumed it was them. There are probably other news forums that have done as much or more as well.

Anyway, not trying to slam you, but I disagree that "it's natural" for people to assume one particular group is responsible -- it's not natural at all but is a sign they have been brainwashed into stereotypical and even harmful labeling of certain people by other biased people. This murderer is an example.

it's quite natural for someone's first thoughts to be that it might be Islamic terrorism.

Sure, if they were heavily brainwashed. And if most people are, I might be ready to conceed that its "normal", because a majority cannot be abnormal. But natural? Oh hell no! Its a twisted state of biased being.

chewitupJul. 23, 2011 - 04:54PM JST

Hilarious! I got four thumbs down just for asking innocent questions! Dang! Won't be long before some poster dresses as a cop and knocks on my door! People really seem to be losing it these days. Is it the heat of summer?

Seriously, smith. I've seen your comments on shootings in the US and your comments about US military members. I'm not sure you're really in a position to lecture people about withholding their opinions until all the facts are in. People naturally make opinions based off of one piece of information. It is natural and it works both ways. I seriously doubt that if someone told you of a Wal-Mart shooting your first question would be, "Where?" Brazil? Puerto Rico?"

When there are ample numbers that fall on one side your mind will naturally go there. You can pretend that you have a special and unique mind but I'm just not going to buy it. Yes, I know you've played the racism card to the point where it's probably laminated. But if you don't hear "car bomb" and think about radical Islam first you're just kidding yourself.

Chewitup, the bigger point I was making about making knee-jerk reactions was that we first blame those known terrorists. Sure enough, some made claims that turned out to be groundless. Introspection as to why it happened will continue for a very long time.

If the government building that was targeted doesn't provide enough of a clue as to Breivik's motives, his selection of a left-of-center youth camp which, among other things, provided political training for young adults, seems very telling.

Because Norway does not have a death penalty, there won't be any reason for Breivik to hold back as to his motives for committing first degree murder on such a massive scale. I doubt that he is as certifiably crazy as the Arizona shooter who went after a Democratic representative.

The early signs from police that his views are right-wing fundamentalist Christian, and so it reminds me of the cases of Eric Robert Rudolf and the killers of doctors and staff who work in clinic that provide abortions. This was a man who, in my opinion, viewed left-wingers as socialist scum and felt the world would be better off (Norway, at least) if he took it upon himself to eliminate as many as possible.

superlib

Seriously, smith. I've seen your comments on shootings in the US and your comments about US military members. I'm not sure you're really in a position to lecture people about withholding their opinions until all the facts are in.

Agreed. And I hope people here remind the poster smithinjapan that Islam is a belief system, it's not a race. To voice concern, wariness or even disgust with belief systems is perfectly human, humane in fact, when disgust is warranted.

Speechless, shock ,horror! ! Mad man with guns who has good shooting skill and know how to exploit people's trust for police, succeeded in killing so many innocent people. This remind me again that we, as human , rely heavily on sanity of each other to survive day after day. I think if later found guilty ,he should be executed or at least jailed for life, " never to be released".

More Abrahamist radicals killing innocents for their perfect view of God.

OrangeW3dge

stop your speculation. radicals and religion are independent. in fact, religion were abuse as the mean to justify their act. tamil tigers are radicals, mexican drug lords can be considered radical in term of their killing acts. abrahamist they're not.

Back on topic please.

My condolences go out to the people of Norway.. Yet another tragic and senseless incicent.

A little over 3% of the US population has at one time or another on parole, probation or in jail at the present time. Very similar to places like Britain. The crazy guy that did all the shooting, should not go to a regular prison but to an insane asylum. Very crazy sick man.

More Abrahamist radicals killing innocents for their perfect view of God.

What? Is this your bizarre interpretation of events? There is no evidence of any link to religion, and as a neo-Nazi, it seems quite unlikely that he had any religious motive. We have an extremist and probably one that had slipped from holding extreme views into insanity which led to a violent interpretation of his views.

Comments such as this are unhelpful and inflammatory.

Currently the toll is at 91+ that is a tragic number to be wiped out by one disturbed sociopath. The former "record" for want of a better word for a killing spree was a disgruntled Korean policeman Woo Bum-kon in 192 who killed 57 and wounded 35. The two worst spree killers in history - a cop and a fake cop.

91! madness, it seems almost all young people too, with their lives ahead them, which makes its especially poignant and tragic. For those who believe in such things there a special place in hell lined up for this guy.

Rehabilitaton? no, at a certain point you cross a line, a point of no return, this guy more that crossed it, he ignited the afterburners when crossing it. Now what to do with this guy?, what ever happens, I think someone will "get" him, just like someone "got" Jeffery Dahmer.

and as a neo-Nazi, it seems quite unlikely that he had any religious motive.

Could you tell me what part of "conservative Christian" you missed? Whether old Nazi or new, so many of their ideas and beliefs stem from Christianity. Man, none are as blind as those who refuse to see!

chewy:

Whether old Nazi or new, so many of their ideas and beliefs stem from Christianity.

But you are unable to name them.

Shooter hated Libertarians:

http://reason.com/blog/2011/07/22/meet-the-man-arrested-for-the

Leftists' knee-jerk narrative falls apart.And let me add that uh, if he or his co-conspirators didn't have access to fertilizer, uh, he could not have made those bombs and killed people. Need to ban all fertilizer, now!

The same man - a blonde-blue eyed Norwegian with reported Christian fundamentalist, anti-Muslim views - is suspected in both attacks.

Is it just me, or is the Associated Press engaging in some of that racial profiling here?

Shooter hated Libertarians...Leftists' knee-jerk narrative falls apart

There's no evidence the shooter hated libertarians. He specifically targeted those he saw as being on the left wing. That "narrative" is rather obvious.

He hated what he viewed as "multiculturalism" and "diversity." There are a lot of libertarians who hate the same, just not to the extent that the shooter did -- and that's where he parted ways with them.

The good thing is that the shooter is alive and will have the chance to tell the world why he committed his actions. I understand the desperate need by conservatives to spin this carefully planned and horrendous attack on the left-wing as being somehow anti-libertarian.

Well, I just hope justice is served, and I seriously doubt releasing him back out into society after his penalty is up is going to stop the parents and relatives of the victims from trying to kill him.

This is a new one though in this day and age, thats a fact. And in these days its quite often to hear about some Islamic terrorist organization, so pretty much I was waiting to hear who was claim responsibility until they were able to catch the culprit and release more details to the public. In this case the man was a great evil loon, but you won't see christian fundamntalists lining up to praise him for his actions. I don't know much about Norwegian law, but even if they don't have the death penalty I strongly hope they're going to keep this man locked up FOREVER.

This poor man needs help and we can learn from him how to prevent further incidents like this

He's a socio/psychopath, nothing new. Angry young men with guns rampaging on society teach us nothing. If you want to really think hard about it ponder on why mass shootings are 99% perpetrated by men, not Tricia Bickle.

I haven't heard reported any current ties to either neo-nazi or conservative Christian groups. And he certainly didn't commit this horrible act "in the name of Christianity." Judging by his Facebook rantings, Breivik is also pro gay and pro Israel. Are we sure it wasn't a gay terrorist group ?

What were going to find out about him is this. Loner, Social outcast with anarchist leanings and delusions that his spree would cause the anarchist revolution he concocted in his own mind. It is my understanding that Norway does not have the death penalty, to damn bad really is............I'd strap him myself if given the chance.

It is my understanding that Norway does not have the death penalty, to damn bad really is............I'd strap him myself if given the chance.

I'm sure you would. This only goes to show that the difference in morals among right wingers is merely one of degree, not of kind.

Mot that you would spin a tragedy to support your politics or anything.

The vast majority of victims in this were targeted because of their politics. It was, after all, a camp for Labour Party youth. This right-winger hated those he considered leftists and marxists. He obviously believed Norway needed a death penalty.

You were big on that with Loughlin [sic] after the Arizona shootings.

From standing "tough" to other nations to the bloodlust over capital punishment, right-wingers just adore violence to one degree or the other. Who knows what triggers the looniest and most unstable among them to go over the edge, as happened both in Arizona and in Norway?

I think most people want to know if this guy acted on his own or is part of larger group of totalitarian nutters, like the Weather Underground .

I think most people want to know if this guy acted on his own or is part of larger group of totalitarian nutters, like the Weather Underground

As more details emerge about the shooter, it is becoming clear he has much more in common with right-wing militia-type groups such as those who the Oklahoma City bombing conspirators associated with.

"Mazyar Keshvari, a spokesman for Norway's Progress Party — which is conservative but within the political mainstream — said that the suspect was a paying member of the party's youth wing (until 2004)....Reports that the assailant was motivated by political ideology were shocking to many Norwegians, who pride themselves on the openness of their society." (Associated Press reporters Bjoern H. Amland in Spundvollen, Norway, and Nils Myklebost in Oslo.)

Now it appears that the shooter wrote a document/manifesto detailing his political views -- which are certainly right-wing -- where he expresses his hatred of left-wing "multiculturalists" and supporters of Norway's liberal immigration laws. He believed Norway was undergoing a culture war -- just as many US right-wingers believe is happening there -- and that "cultural marxists" needed to be decimated.

The shooter is a self-styled Norwegian "patriot." The Norwegian daily Verdens Gang quoted a friend as saying he became a right-wing extremist in his late 20s. It said he expressed strong nationalistic views in online debates and had been a strong opponent of multiculturalism. His hatred of the liberal/left Labor Party caused him to plan for months the attacks he carried out on Friday.

Excellent posts, Yabits. Very exciting stuff. Maybe the Norwegian government can loan you some of the corpses so you can stand on the street corner and whack right-wingers in the head with them as they walk by.

Disgusting. Both the act itself and the responces to it. Norway will do with him as they think is best but I'd just as soon see him taken out of the gene pool.

He hated what he viewed as "multiculturalism" and "diversity." There are a lot of libertarians who hate the same, just not to the extent that the shooter did -- and that's where he parted ways with them.

I don't think you know what a libertarian is considering their current platform on immigration is "a free market requires the free movement of both capital and labor across borders."

There's a reason that motivated the killing of so many innocent people -- targeted specifically because of their political affiliation. It stands to reason that you would show such disrespect for the victims just to take a personal shot. Pathetic.

I don't think you know what a libertarian is considering their...(blah, blah, blah)

Suffice to say that hatred of libertarianism was not the shooter's motivation, as suggested by one poster. He didn't target libertarians, but members of the left-wing Labor Party.

Disgusting

If others can feel the disgust at how right-wing, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim extremism can motivate those to take the actions that this mass-killer of young people did, I will not have chosen my words in vain.

Otherwise, go on pretending that the hatred and rage on the right will never become acted upon, despite these real world events.

Sorry, but yabits your thinking is typically Ameri-centric. And in your solipsistic Ameri-centrism you conflate things. You are trying to imply this guy is something akin to an American 'right-winger' who happens to live in Norway. In my experience living abroad - and I am counting decades - hard core European rightists I have encountered hate the US ('flag-waivers' / middle America in particular) as virulently as do Euro lefties. Your tack here is as desperate as someone saying Obama supporters are the same as the murderous Maoist Shining Path nutters.

Suffice to say that hatred of libertarianism was not the shooter's motivation, as suggested by one poster. He didn't target libertarians, but members of the left-wing Labor Party.

Just helping clarify the libertarian standpoint on immigration. But I digress.

The talk of left-wing and right-wing really needs to be put in context here because the terms have been wildly abused on this thread, more so than usual. In Norway the political parties are not nearly so divisive as they are in other countries. What you term as the 'right-wing' Progress Party differs only slightly from Labour Party. In regards to immigration it generally favors more stringent background checks and higher requirements from immigrants due to the stress that the current laws are placing on their welfare system and while I find their view on the Muslim wardrobe a little disheartening it's certainly not unheard of in many nations in Europe.

To say the man was politically motivated in a conventional sense would be a vast overreach. While he may have been motivated by his own political views his were not shared by even a minority of Norwegians who, despite minor differences in how to cope with their growing welfare ills, generally encourage polite discourse among members of its parliament, Progress and Conservative parties included.

Otherwise, go on pretending that the hatred and rage on the right will never become acted upon, despite these real world events.

The term 'right' continues to be used arbitrarily to those you disagree with. The only person posting with any amount of hatred or rage here is you.

I keep seeing a photo of the killer in which he is dressed very formally, almost as if making pretenses to Norwegian aristocracy. From his rantings it is clear that he admired and may have even fancied himself as some kind of latter-day Knights Templar. The whole ugly tragedy should be viewed not through the lens of modern right vs left politics, but as a troubling expression of old fashioned European nationalism, the ancien regime's (or those deluded enough to think they have its imprimatur) intolerance for the foreigner new to their lands (Muslim immigrants) and to new ideas from foreign lands (socialism).

BreitbartVictorious,

The whole ugly tragedy should be viewed not through the lens of modern right vs left politics, but as a troubling expression of old fashioned European nationalism, the ancien regime's (or those deluded enough to think they have its imprimatur) intolerance for the foreigner new to their lands (Muslim immigrants) and to new ideas from foreign lands (socialism)

I think you might be onto something there. Now why could it possibly be that people such as this would be hostile to foreigners (in this case muslims) coming to their country l wonder? And what new ideas that these foreigners bring with them could be seen as a problem?

Regardless of his motives at the end of the day 100 people paid with their lives because of his beliefs and that is the issue. Whether they where left or right wing means nothing, they where people who where murdered because this man had a grudge, thats the only issue here.

Some people here need to learn what type of a country Norway is before posting. It is a very free and liberal country with a large immigarnt population. This is isolated and the people there recognise that,. The government have stated they will not make new laws for security reasons. This poor man needs serious help to get better and restart his life in 10-20 years time. We need to learn what triggered this atttack.

steve@CPFC

It is a very free and liberal country with a large immigarnt population.

Yes that is fine, but as they have seen from this massacre they have obviously been living in a time-bomb waiting to happen. For this guy to be able to plan it for years and then carry it out the way he did points to a large failure on the part of the people who are supposed to protect the people.

The government have stated they will not make new laws for security reasons.

Well lets just wait for the repeat then. Simple, you either learn from it and make changes or you damn yourself to repeat the problem.

This poor man needs serious help to get better and restart his life in 10-20 years time.

Steve, l do not even know where to start with this statement. Does this man deserve a second chance? He is not sick he made choices, choices that lead to the deaths of a hundred innocent people. I think those people would love the chance to get on with their lives but this man took that away from them and here you are saying when he's better he can restart his life. Steve he doesnt have a cold that he will get over he cold bloodedly murdered 100 people. You dont give him a asprin and let him go. He doesnt deserve a second chance he deserves to rot in prison or better yet die for his crimes.

Spidapig24; Sadly you and many others have fallen into the 21st Century myth that this is only the start, we must give up freedoms for "security reasons". This is a one off, bit like Harold Shipman in the UK, they don't monitor all UK P's by CCTV because of one man.

These events are more likely to happen where freedoms are removed for security purposes. It would be childish to change laws that effect the whole nation because of one disturbed man.

This is the problem with those of you who cannot fathom progressive ideas, ideas that are working in fact when put in place. His punishment will be his removal from society, while in prison we can learn from him and help him get better and become a responsible decent person. Prisons are not for the publics revenge but justice, punishment and improvement.

This is a one off, bit like Harold Shipman in the UK

not a one-off if you compare it to someone else. duh.

steve@CPFC,

Sadly you seem to have missed the fact that he MURDERED 100 PEOPLE. He deserves about as much right to a second chance as those people deserved to die. And as you wont understand that, it is NON AT ALL.

You say words like help him get better, Steve he doesnt have a cold or a sore arm he brutally murdered 100 people. That imo automatically removes his rights to as you say "get better".

Maybe rather than seeing the perpetrator as the victim you might look at the poor innocent people laying in a morgue with their lives snuffed out by this piece of crap as the victims.

Spidapig24; I have experienced seeing a close friend murdered by a knifeman about 15 years ago, My views will not change. The problem is you cannot see that people can get better, so why not kill him, next we can ill serial shoplifters as they don't get better. I see the dead , their families and the killer as victims. When you can also see it that way, you will also see why Norway is a free country. Most people cannot undertsand why men like this commit crimes and see it through a way conditioned by society, ie good and evil, bad guys Vs good guys. People are not born bad, it is not there, it developes, we can find ways to control, remedy and prevent not kill them.

steve@CPFC,

The problem is you cannot see that people can get better, so why not kill him, next we can ill serial shoplifters as they don't get better.

Dont assume Steve. Some people can get "better" yes l agree but some people dont deserve that chance. Do you think they should have let the Nazi's live who killed millions of Jews? They could have got better. What is the number of people that have to die before you say "um thats to many you cant get better"?

I see the dead , their families and the killer as victims. When you can also see it that way, you will also see why Norway is a free country.

You see thats where we differ l see the dead, their families and the killers family as the victims l see him as the perpetrator. The others had no choice in the outcome, he had a choice and every-time he pulled the trigger he had a choice, every time he looked down the rifle and saw another human and CHOSE to pull the trigger he had a choice. The people in his sights and their families they didnt have a choice.

Most people cannot undertsand why men like this commit crimes and see it through a way conditioned by society, ie good and evil, bad guys Vs good guys. People are not born bad, it is not there, it developes, we can find ways to control, remedy and prevent not kill them

Steve believe it or not l do understand that, probably better than you think. And while sentencing and jail wont fix that it is a deterrent for some crimes. But more importantly it is a punishment for your actions, afterall you cannot commit an act without punishment.

Spidapig24; If you really did undersatnd more than i think then you will know that it is unlikely that the killer chose to kill those people in the same way for instance he cooked his dinner. The harsh punishments of the US have led to massive crime, when the citizens see their lives can be taken by the government legally they realsie they can be considered worthless and commit more crimes.

Of course everyone deserves the chance to get better and that would include WWII Nazis of course. If we had studied them isntead of hanging,showed them the compassion they didn't show, we could learn so much, but the old eye for an eye nonsense won the day.

This is the problem with those of you who cannot fathom progressive ideas, ideas that are working in fact when put in place.

LOL. How condescending. As if people are born with a fixed set of political beliefs, or that 'progressive' thought represents a point on the spectrum of political thought equivalent to a degree of achievement in mathematics that separates those who work with numbers professionally from the rest of us.

Steve, Im sorry but your way of thinking just isnt my cup of tea. At some point this man made a conscious decision to kill. He didnt do it once or twice or even 10 times he did it 90+ times. He forfeited his right to live his life out as a free man every time he gunned down an innocent victim.

I gather though from your posts that you believe everyone no matter how bad their crime deserves to live out their life in freedom. Well thats your opinion and well thats fine but l am truly glad that few others share your views.

Spidapig24; No i never said that. He must be punished, the punishment being he loses his freedoms. He Can be observed, treated and we can find more about the mind of this type of killer.The mind unless completely insane is capable of being treated and repaired. We must not fear or hate this man but pity and learn from him.When he is deeme safe he should be released, it does neither him or society any good to stay in prison for longer. If he is treated as an animal in prison he may well cat like one, look at teh US high security prisons. Treat humanely and the results are staggering.

Steve,

We must not fear or hate this man but pity and learn from him.

Yes learn from him l agree, maybe you can go talk to his victims families and ask them not to hate him, dont think you will get far there though.

When he is deeme safe he should be released, it does neither him or society any good to stay in prison for longer.

Steve, lm sorry but who cares if he is deemed safe, he took 100 lives l couldnt care less if he is safe or not he took 100 peoples lives from them, he took loved ones from families. Really who cares if he is safe or not he is evil he did an evil thing. You seem to be treating him like he has a cold. Oh lets send him to the doctor and when he gets better he can go and walk the streets again while his 100 victims lay decomposing in their graves you want him to have his freedom.

Sorry but thats wrong

Spidapig24;You said you understand in a previous post then you just say "he is evil he did an evil thing". The cat was evil, people are not evil, that is what must be understood to prevent furthers tragedies like this. He is damaged and can be mended, yes in most cases people can be if treated in the proper manner with humanity. Crimes are never nice however severe, but we must put our emotions away and be rational.

Your tack here is as desperate as someone saying Obama supporters are the same as the murderous Maoist Shining Path nutters.

Or Kenyan Mau-Mau's? (Oh, that was a Republican candidate who said that.)

And in your solipsistic Ameri-centrism you conflate things. You are trying to imply this guy is something akin to an American 'right-winger'

Wrong. Radical, extreme nationalistic thinking is universal in scope. It comes from the part of human nature that desires security over all in a radically changing world. Those who believe that there are no lessons to be found in Breivik's example that might apply at home -- and home for me just happens to be the USA -- are electing to choose to remain ignorant of a much greater danger.

The term 'right' continues to be used arbitrarily to those you disagree with. The only person posting with any amount of hatred or rage here is you.

No. It is nowhere near that simple. If I have a hatred, it is of Breivik's motivation: the desire to purify his country by taking it back to some mythical past condition of perfection. The one thing I am certain of is that few things are as dangerous as the mental certitude practiced by those driven to think that violence is an acceptable step: whether by execution, by war, or by anything else.

The desire expressed to remove Breivik from "the gene pool" indicates far more hatred of human beings than I could ever muster within myself.

The whole ugly tragedy should be viewed not through the lens of modern right vs left politics,

I understand the desperate need by some on the right who want to misrepresent the views of those of us who see the danger in the kind of right-wing extremism practiced and defended by Breivik.

The "lens" has to be focused on the process that extremism takes when it starts to leave politics behind. Nobody has attempted to frame the issue merely in terms of "politics" other than right-wingers who want to remain in total denial of the facts before us. (It's why a presumed hatred of libertarians and Weather Underground were brought up.)

Politics means the ability to reason together to reach compromises with those who think differently. Breivik was on the vanguard of those who could no longer do this. He could only be assisted by those whose ideas lent credence to Breivik's notions that his philosophical opponents were indeed evil and had to be "neutralized."

21 years max? I am content to leave Norwegian justice the Norwegians, but I scarcely see the point of rehabiliation even if its possible. In my world he would never see the sun again and live a fairly long life of solitary boredom in the dark, unless and until he figures out a way to resurrect his victims. Either that or I would work him like a mule until he keels over.

If I have a hatred, it is of Breivik's motivation: the desire to purify his country by taking it back to some mythical past condition of perfection. The one thing I am certain of is that few things are as dangerous as the mental certitude practiced by those driven to think that violence is an acceptable step: whether by execution, by war, or by anything else.

Yet you continue to create blatent fabrications that the 'right-wing' of Norweigian politics drove the man to act in this way rather than his own personal twisted view of the world. No political party in Norway conservative or otherwise has any policies in place that even remotly reflect his crazed Viking ideal aside from his Nazi ties.

The desire expressed to remove Breivik from "the gene pool" indicates far more hatred of human beings than I could ever muster within myself.

My desire to see such criminals tried and executed is more clinical than emotional. The man could be reprogrammed and deemed safe tomorrow and never lift a hand against another living thing for the rest of his life, it doesn't change the fact that nearly 100 are dead by his hand. His death would not bring them back, his death would not deter the next mass murderer, nor would it alieve the pain felt by the families of those who lost loved ones but it is the closest we can get to equitable (though 1 life for so many dead is still bitterly unbalanced). No amount of reflection, or money, or service is worth the life of an innocent. He should die for his actions but he won't. Instead he'll likely be released at some future date and possibly even breed while innocent men women and children lie dead that is not equity, that is not justice.

I have posted the same to another Norway massacre.

First I would like to express my personal condolence to everyone in Norway, especially to those innocent victims and their families. It is beyond my comprehension and I am still in shock.

The reality is that we are living among these extreme religious fundamentalists and political extremism. They believe in NO WAY- HIGHWAY- MY WAY. Some of them maintain a low profile life style, and they come out from nowhere and shoot us. Let's be more cautious and vigilant. That's all we can do against wacko.

Yet you continue to create blatent fabrications that the 'right-wing' of Norweigian politics drove the man to act in this way rather than his own personal twisted view of the world.

You couldn't be more wrong in that assertion. To be precise, in the world of today, it is the right wing that seeks to justify violence as a viable means of reaching an objective. Those who are already driven towards violence are not going to be curbed by people who believe that they are engaged in a struggle against the "tyranny" of an oppressive government, a fight against Islamo-fascism, or insert any right-wing cause you want.

I've been involved in a number of left-wing causes where certain individuals came to us who were angry to the point of wanting to commit violence -- usually destruction of property. Many of us have a formal process of counseling such people in non-violence. (Would that we could always have been successful.) But non-violence is not a value of the right; people on the right always reserve the option to commit violent acts in a very wide variety of circumstances. As it regards, Breivik, he drove himself, but the right-wing types he associated with never provided anything resembling a red light to his natural course.

The right simply can not renounce violence and still remain the right.

He should die for his actions but he won't. Instead he'll likely be released at some future date and possibly even breed while innocent men women and children lie dead that is not equity, that is not justice.

That he resorted to taking life does not justify the state taking his. The only time when it could be justifiable is to stop someone who is in the process of committing an act that threatens to destroy life. Such is not the case with Breivik at this point.

The right simply can not renounce violence and still remain the right.

You keep building up this phantom of 'the right' without providing any context to what it means. The conservative political groups in Norway have never engaged in anything save the ordinary discourse which is the foundation of their democracy and they have championed the very non-violence you seem to espouse. The criminal in this case was an outlier far and away from anything that would be considered a norm in even the most conservative circles of Norwegian politics yet you continue to use him as the banner man of anybody that does not fall under what you describe as 'the left'. You’re beginning to sound like a zealot.

The only time when it could be justifiable is to stop someone who is in the process of committing an act that threatens to destroy life.

You have your opinion of justice. I have mine. Although only mine absolutely guarantees that he will not kill again, I've seen too many people killed or injured by those released from prison, I do not believe in rehabilitation.

The conservative political groups in Norway have never engaged in anything save the ordinary discourse which is the foundation of their democracy

So what? Breivik wasn't limited to checking out his right-wing extremist thinkings with conservative party members of his native Norway. He speaks of agreeing with and being influenced by other European think tanks and groups on the right, many of whom are far more virulent in their opposition to multiculturalism.

The criminal in this case was an outlier far and away from anything that would be considered a norm in even the most conservative circles of Norwegian politics yet you continue to use him as the banner man of anybody that does not fall under what you describe as 'the left'.

Stop trying to limit it to Norway's conservatives, where he got his political upbringing. He's certainly not an outlier on the extreme right wing of Europe. Only perhaps the first "hero" in a string of others to follow.

Although only mine absolutely guarantees that he will not kill again

Your method absolutely guarantees that the state will kill again and again. Their judgments are nowhere near 100% perfect, which makes murderers out of anyone who supports such a system. If a society refuses to take life, it makes it much more difficult for an individual to justify doing so. That alone might make the key difference between a massacre every 50 years and one a month. Violence begets violence; simple as that.

I do not believe in rehabilitation.

Of course not. Nobody who ultimately despises human beings does.

@PFC ha. According to the stats put out by the International Psychological Organization for the Rehab of Criminals that Murder, it takes approximately 1 year for rehab to succeed. So I agree with you. 92 murders....92 years.

He speaks of agreeing with and being influenced by other European think tanks and groups on the right, many of whom are far more virulent in their opposition to multiculturalism.

The most distasteful of those he has noted was Geert Wilders and even he does not advocate violence. There is an undercurrent of anti-Muslim attitudes throughout Europe, that’s not a question, but all that has amounted to has been political action and more discourse. The EU has been destabilized through mass immigration and debt yet only Breivik has taken arms on the topic, therefore he is an outlier.

Stop trying to limit it to Norway's conservatives, where he got his political upbringing. He's certainly not an outlier on the extreme right wing of Europe. Only perhaps the first "hero" in a string of others to follow.

No, this was an attack on what this man perceived as a weakness in his country. He may have hacked bits and pieces out of other people's works and speeches (he is also said to have drawn heavily from the perceived 'purity' of east Asian countries such as Japan and Korea) but his ideas, intent, and actions are unique to him and him alone.

An outlier is "a statistical observation that is markedly different in value from the others of the sample". If we use say...all of Europe as the sample and the act of mass murder of supporters of multiculturalism as the observation I think we can both agree that Breivik is, indeed, an outlier in more ways than one.

Their judgments are nowhere near 100% perfect, which makes murderers out of anyone who supports such a system.

Increases the burden of proof an adds actual depth to murder hearings. Sentencing is still based on a jury, I simply feel the option ought be available.

If a society refuses to take life, it makes it much more difficult for an individual to justify doing so.

In individualistic societies the actions of government or the legal system rarely alter the actions of the general population. Murder rates in states without the death penalty are no different than those with it. I've already stated that I don't believe the death penalty adequately deters crime, but it is the only equitable punishment for taking a life.

That alone might make the key difference between a massacre every 50 years and one a month.

The fact that it's a small and largely homogenous nation has more to do with that than anything else. It's the same reason you don't see high crime rates in smaller communities in the U.S when compared to larger cities. My state doesn't have the death penalty and some of the largest welfare and unemployment assistance programs in the nation yet the murder rates are staggering and unemployment is nearly twice the national average.

Nobody who ultimately despises human beings does.

I've grown far to detached. I would be hard pressed to dislike someone I don't know let alone despise them. That said I don't need to even dislike them to believe they should be tried and executed. We all make choices and I believe that every decision should have a real, equitable consequence.

The most distasteful of those he has noted was Geert Wilders and even he does not advocate violence.

You won't find many right-wingers who will overtly advocate violence on the record. However, there are many right-wing screeds that endorse violence that are published anonymously.

but all that has amounted to has been political action and more discourse.

There has been plenty of violence directed against Muslims and Gypsies (Roma) in Europe,. just not anywhere approaching the scale of this attack. Rather than attacking Muslims directly, Breivik wanted to attack those he felt were making it easier for non-Christians to gain a foothold in Europe. Lots of right-wingers sympathize with those ends. There is little doubt that many an upcoming right-wing extremist tract will refer to Breivik as a hero. He may be an outlier to most ordinary Europeans, but there are many right-wing extremists just like him in the wings.

but his ideas, intent, and actions are unique to him and him alone.

Those who know about the resurgence of right-wing extremist groups in Europe would find that statement, as it regards ideas and intent, ridiculous. It's why Hess's grave had to be dug up and his bones buried at sea.

You won't find many right-wingers who will overtly advocate violence on the record. However, there are many right-wing screeds that endorse violence that are published anonymously.

So instead of basing my opinions on the law abiding politicians, think tanks, and activists I am instead to use the actions of the 1 in 100,000 that does something atrocious? Am I to use the rhetoric of the monstrous few to describe the views and opinions of those that happen to fall on the wrong side of your 'right' and 'left' line? That is unacceptable. I don't, and never have, blamed Muslims for the actions of terrorists, I don't blame Germans for the Nazi's, and I'll not lay blame at the foot of your phantom 'right' for the action of one Norwegian psychopath. I'll judge a man by his own actions, not by those of the demon that happened to like his book.

There has been plenty of violence directed against Muslims and Gypsies (Roma) in Europe,. just not anywhere approaching the scale of this attack.

In isolated incidents with varying motivations. The roma have it particularly bad and have been thus persecuted for centuries by fascist regimes, anarchists, nationalists, Nazi's, the Soviet Union, and every other group with the mind to do so. What we have in Europe is a hodgepodge of dozens of countries with thousands of groups and millions of individuals that makes broad classifications of 'right' and 'left' a pointless exercise.

He may be an outlier to most ordinary Europeans, but there are many right-wing extremists just like him in the wings.

You know 'most ordinary Europeans' probably includes millions of conservative voters. The same could be said of spreading trend of the anarchists rioting and looting. As unfortunate as it is, as Europe continues it's downward trend actions like this may become less infrequent and I'm sorry to say they won't all be wearing the same hat, rage and political disenchantment are universal to all those on whatever fringe they may cling to.

Lots of right-wingers sympathize with those ends.

Sympathy does not equate to acceptance. To a certain extent I sympathized with the PIRA having seen and experienced discrimination as a Catholic but their methods were beyond justification. Affiliation and sympathy mean nothing, actions are all that matter.

Those who know about the resurgence of right-wing extremist groups in Europe would find that statement, as it regards ideas and intent, ridiculous. It's why Hess's grave had to be dug up and his bones buried at sea.

I could play 'name that murderous regime' all day with you but it won't change the fact that Breivik's ideas of reclaiming a Viking esque past, blowing up buildings with fertilizer, and murdering nearly a hundred people in a youth camp are, indeed, quite outside even the farthest stretch of what would be considered the norm.

Also, not sure if you particularly care, but I felt the need to point out that it's not me voting down your posts. Voting down a post one doesn't like is merely childish even if it's only a small annoyance and I'd just as soon not have myself associated with the practice.

What we have in Europe is a hodgepodge of dozens of countries with thousands of groups and millions of individuals that makes broad classifications of 'right' and 'left' a pointless exercise.

Your predisposed belief in your own supremacy of thought that looking for discernible patterns among extremist groups would be a "pointless exercise" doesn't make it so for others. "Right" and "left" are helpful to better understand how the extremes connect or intersect with those groups who are, in turn, better connected to the mainstream.

I feel reasonably confident that in Norway, the conservative party that Breivik associated with for so many years will be looking at itself for ways to better recognize and understand the patterns of influence that might help to prevent others from taking his path. They certainly wouldn't be publishing stuff that made out their liberal opponents to be a demonic mob who constituted a serious threat to the nation. But it also doesn't mean that there weren't warning signs that were ignored.

Affiliation and sympathy mean nothing, actions are all that matter.

Actions come out of motivation, and motivation comes from emotions and ideas -- ie sympathies. Affiliations and open sympathies are also actions. Just as choosing to neglect something is an action.

"Right" and "left" are helpful to better understand how the extremes connect or intersect with those groups who are, in turn, better connected to the mainstream.

But they remove context. The terms 'right' and 'left' are largely subjective and vary from person to person and country to country. The man was motivated by a twisted form of nationalism that I haven't been able to find in any of Norway's conservative parties. I'd agree with you if they made a habit of citing neo-Nazi works or creating explicitly hateful rhetoric but those sentiments don't seem to jive with any major party in Norway.

I feel reasonably confident that in Norway, the conservative party that Breivik associated with for so many years will be looking at itself for ways to better recognize and understand the patterns of influence that might help to prevent others from taking his path.

There's really nothing within the Progress Party that could reasonably be linked to Breiviks actions. While they have supported some immigration restrictions and limitations on Muslim headwear they have never suggested mass expulsion or violence against immigrants. I don't agree with many of their policies but their methods are measured.

Affiliations and open sympathies are also actions. Just as choosing to neglect something is an action.

This wasn't a case of ignoring the actions of someone within a party or group. He was far outside normal political circles so there was really nobody to notice his actions. He didn't belong to an organized party (he left the Progress Party in 07) and there was nobody to keep an eye on him save his periodic angry postings. Blaming his actions on the 'right' or the Progress party merely because he once considered himself among them is like blaming the free masons, he was one of those as well. Eventually the need blame the other 'side' turns into a game of political Russian roulette for who takes the fall for this weeks psycho.

There's really nothing within the Progress Party that could reasonably be linked to Breiviks actions...Blaming his actions on the 'right' or the Progress party merely because he once considered himself among them is like blaming the free masons...

I don't blame the Progress Party as a whole and never have. Another straw man. But there were those on the right and within the party who share culpability. That much will be borne out in due time, I am quite confident. Also culpable for the Breiviks of the world are any and all who represent their political opponents as demonic, non-humans. It's about the only way Breivik could bring himself to kill so indiscriminately with no sense of the humanity of his victims whatsoever.

He was far outside normal political circles so there was really nobody to notice his actions.

Nobody? For years? I don't believe you have any basis for making that absurd claim. Nobody who thinks he was acting for the greater good of his country ever acts alone.

Also culpable for the Breiviks of the world are any and all who represent their political opponents as demonic, non-humans.

That falls on more groups than I care to name. The growing trend among all political groups is to paint the others as the great corruption. The rhetoric on both sides in the U.S is atrocious and the vitriol in the UK parliament boarders on the absurd. Polarizing opponents makes it easier to rally the masses to your cause, because it takes time and patience to explain the long reach effects of economic reform or the need to impose new immigration standards while it's so much faster to proclaim that the 'left' is out to steal my money and destroy my future and the 'right' are immigrant hating bigots.

I don't believe you have any basis for making that absurd claim.

The only conventional group he's belonged to was the Progress Party and he left that organization in 2007. Since that time his thoughts and views were limited to blogs and forum rants which are not uncommon in any sense of the word. Based on articles from this site, major news organizations, and a few periodicals from Norway I've run through the translator he didn't really do anything to inspire suspicion.

Nobody who thinks he was acting for the greater good of his country ever acts alone.

Thus my choice of words 'far outside normal political circles'. If he shared his plans of violence with anybody it was likely only those few that agreed with his methods, with any luck they'll be found and also sentenced to 21 years in prison.

Steve, he's not a 14 yr old who fell in with a bad group. He's 32 and has been planning this for years. Do you really think after all these years of cold planning and articulating the justification for this despicable madness that through medication and talking to psychiatrist he will come to the point where he realizes that dressing as a cop, and murdering more than 70 kids was not a nice thing to do? And that he will come out in 21 years and become a friendly school teacher or something?

btw, as much as you seem to love Norwegians and their great understanding, there are already very understandable moves to make sure his evil man is put away for more than 21 years.

Strangely enough, you have shown this man more sympathy and understanding than women who send their kids to day care!

yasukuni; while you and your fellow minded posters like to bash everything is post, i carry on with my progressive ideas. My views on day care are not relevent to this mans crimes. He will not serve more than 21 years as that is teh alw whtehr it is changed or not now. I never said he would be a teacher or anything like that., with his convictions he would not be allowed to anyway.

What he did was not evil but the product of a damaged and deluded mind. When we as society become grown up enough to understand that finding what makes these crimes happen is the key, not harsh punishments. Of cours ewhat he did was terrible, but we cannot bring the victims back to life by seeking revenge or primitive punishments like the death penalty.

I love all people but not always their mindsets and of course their views. I have shown no sympathy for what this man did but sympathy for the situation that he is now in due to his actions. Rather than looking at these things in black and white, Liberal Vs Conservative i try to look at what is best for society. The death penalty and harsh sentences do not preotect society and treat criminals, the US shows that. think out of the box, you may like it.

This fellow has many of the same opinions as the more conservative posts on this board. In fact his writings quote directly from US far right christian websites. Can this type of thing happen in the US. It already has in 1995 with greater death toll. Will it happen again, of course. Republicans like to fix their make believe problems with violence.

In fact his writings quote directly from US far right christian websites.

I'll start to worry about Christians in America when I see prominent church leaders praising a nut like Brevick, or if I see videotapes of Christian children handing out sweets and dancing in the streets at the news of his heinous crime.

This dude is NOT a Christian!

Not that Christians have never done anything wrong, but he is not a true Christian. He even admitted as much in his writings. He says he has no relationship with God at all and the only reason he calls himself a Christian is that he likes the social side of Christianity. Obviously, his ethics are not Christian. In fact, he views Darwinism in a very positive light and thinks science should take precedence over Christianity.

BurakuminDes said:

News reports just coming in are that this man is a "Christian Fundamentalist". It seems christian extremists can be equally as dangerous as their islamic brothers...

I understand why he would say this, but now that we have more information, we know this is not true. Christians do not go around blowing people up. That goes 100% against the views of Jesus. How does one define a Christian fundamentalist anyway?

For a more detailed description of this guy's social Darwinism, check out this site. It is documented and supported with Breivik's own words. If we read his Manifesto, we realize he is not even a Christian in the true sense of the word. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/07/the_professor_and_the_madman048831.html

OK, Zurcornium, this is totally off the wall!

This fellow has many of the same opinions as the more conservative posts on this board. In fact his writings quote directly from US far right christian websites. Can this type of thing happen in the US. It already has in 1995 with greater death toll. Will it happen again, of course. Republicans like to fix their make believe problems with violence.

What violence in 1995 are you talking about? If you can point to only one instance of violence, then I hardly think it is fair to claim that Republicans like to fix their make believe problems with violence. That's an idiotic statement. I haven't seen any Republican terrorists or Democrat terrorists for that matter so comparing either of them with this Norwegian terrorist is dishonest.

Again, see my last post, but this guy was not a Christian in any way. If anything, he is more like a social Darwinist. If you want to identify this guy with Christianity, you are going to have to give us some evidence. For evidence against that view, see this article:

http://crev.info/content/110724-norway_killer_cultural_christian_practical_darwinian

tjguy; Does not matter about any faith he claims, it is a red herring.Religion does not benefit society it hinders development and discourages individual thoughts. The man has mental problems, his mental health neds to be looked into not his religous beliefs.

I

There is little doubt that many an upcoming right-wing extremist tract will refer to Breivik as a hero. He may be an outlier to most ordinary Europeans, but there are many right-wing extremists just like him in the wings.

Oh brother! Little doubt in whose mind?

Support your wild claim with some evidence please!

How do you know there are many right wing fundamentalists just like him in Europe?

Are there people concerned about the rapid rise in the number of Muslims and the corresponding decrease in the birthrate of non-Muslims, their influence on society, and what that bodes for the future - a Muslim Europe? Yes, I'm sure there are, but I doubt these people would advocate violence.

Farmboy:

" This guy is evidently a Christian fundamentalist. I don't know much about Norwegian Christian fundamentalists, but I wonder how this kind of action fits into his belief system. "

No, it is not "evident", and he is not. Christian fundamentalists have the option to join a monestary or live like the Amish if they want a biblical life. There is no concept for terrorism in christian ideology.

As for the guy, yes he is a christian convert, but his motives are 100% political. Read his manifesto. His beef is with the Norwegian socialist party which is ruining the country.

tjguy:

" In fact his writings quote directly from US far right christian websites. "

And can you name a few of these "US far right christian websites"? .... no, I did not think so either.