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Obama calls Buchenwald ultimate rebuke to Holocaust denial

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6 millions is quite an astronomical number, and it may be hard to imagine its authenticity for people who haven't learned its tragic war history at schools. But, you don't have to count up to a given number to exercise its authenticity as a significant tragic loss of humanity in WWII. The remains of the sites-- prisons, concentration camps assist in augmenting our imagination by creating a symbolic meaning of holocaust remembrance as a public memory. I bet he might not want to visit Bitburg to spark a controversy just like Ronald Reagan did in 1985.

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The article states: "The victims at Buchenwald included some 11,000 Jews, but also communists, Gypsies and other minorities from across central Europe." This should state clearly that "victims" means those who died. Everyone who was an inmate at Buchenwald ought to be counted as a victim. Furthermore, the wording of this statement sounds like the non-Jewish deaths are somehow secondary. In fact, at Buchenwald most of those who died were not Jewish. Not mentioned is that many of the people imprisoned in Buchenwald were POWs, and the worst treated were those from the Soviet Union. Poles also make up a large number of the dead.

I am harping on these details to stress once again that the Holocast was far worse than most people think. The Nazis had in for all "neidermenchen," not only the Jews. I am aiming this at the Holocaust deniers, who are basically anti-semitic. If Hitler had won, you too could have been a victim. No doubt the Nazis would have eventually gotten at the Arabs.

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From above: "6 millions is quite an astronomical number..." The actual number those who died in the Holocaust is around 11 million. Six million represents the number of Jews the Nazis murdered. I frankly wonder if even 11 million is too a conservative number.

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A friend of mine said recently - not to deny the horrific nature ofthe Nazi Holocaust - that he wonders why ther is so much fuss about what the Nazis did, considering Chairman Mao killed ...30 million(?) in the Great Leap Forward, and far more Russians died under Stalin than Jews died under Hitler.

Stalin and Mao killed their own people while the Nazis tried to killed another race, but gencoide is genocide.

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the wording of this statement sounds like the non-Jewish deaths are somehow secondary.” I've often questioned that myself. Sushi: My father, who become heavily involved in communist activities during the 60's and 70's, has also talked about that. He had said that neither of those two should be allowed to be called communists! Why do we, the US school system, teach about that until one goes to college?

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That the leader of the most powerful nation in the world has to go to a place like Buchenwald and "rebuke" Holocaust denial shows how wacked out the times and some of the major players are.

And though President Obama at least declared “To this day, there are those who insist the Holocaust never happened...” it is shameful he did not specifically and directly adress his words to the same worldwide religious community he reached out to from Cairo the other day.

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he did not specifically and directly adress his words to the same worldwide religious community he reached out to from Cairo the other day." That's a solid point!

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Don't forget that some of the worst Holocaust deniers are right in the good ol' USA. Unlike European deniers, they have no constraints put on them because Holocaust denial is not against the law in the US.

Another thing, there is no question that Stalin and Mao were mass murderers. The Holocaust was different. It went beyond killing political opponents (or letting millions starve to death because of failed programs, as in the Chinese Cultural Revolution). Hitler killed millions--including Germany's own people (which, of course, included German Jews) for eugenic reasons. Besides wiping out the Jews, he wanted to wipe out the Poles and the Russians, as well as Gypsies, cripples, homosexuals, and many others. Obama would have been wiped out if the Nazis had conquered the world.

Other crimes against humanity should not be ignored or downgraded because of the Holocaust. At the same time the Holocaust must be remembered what the extreme horror that it was.

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I've been to a Nazi concentration camp in Austria - absolutely horrifying - seeing the cremation ovens, prisoner barracks, a stone quarry where Nazi guards used to just push prisoners off to fall something like 80 feet onto the rock below.

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Another thing, there is no question that Stalin and Mao were mass murderers.

Mass murderers Hitler, Mao and Stalin were all men of the Left.It's good that jean colmar, susisake and fellow travelers can acknowledge this.

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion focused on President Obama's visit to Buchenwald and his remarks.

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"it is shameful he did not specifically and directly adress his words to the same worldwide religious community he reached out to from Cairo the other day." what ever is fine for you. The Holocaust is a European problem. This has nothing to do with the Middle-east.

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Obama’s great uncle, Charlie Payne, was among troops of the 89th Infantry Division who liberated a nearby subcamp, Ohrdruf, the same month.

“He returned from his service in a state of shock,” Obama said, “saying little and isolating himself for months on end from family and friends.” Payne bore “painful memories that would not leave his head.”

Not that the mainstream US media is interested but that was just another casual and calculated lie from Obama.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Payne, early in June your great-nephew, President Barack Obama, will visit the former concentration camp Buchenwald, which you helped liberate at the end of the war. Will he be travelling in your footsteps?

Charles Payne: I don't buy that. I was quite surprised when the whole thing came up and Barack talked about my war experiences in Nazi Germany. We had never talked about that before. This is a trip that he chose, not because of me I'm sure, but for political reasons.

Spiegel Magazine May 29, 2009

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the whole article teleprompter is making reference to:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,626703,00.html

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The Holocaust is a European problem. This has nothing to do with the Middle-east.

TumbleDry, you need to learn a little history.

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Japan take note.

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Tumbledry:

" The Holocaust is a European problem. This has nothing to do with the Middle-east. "

YOu are demonstraing ignorance on the subject. Holocaust denial is a common theme among radical muslims everywhere, and a specifically a constant thread in Ahmedinejads speeches. You ought to inform yourself before opining.

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Helter_Skelter:WilliB: How many countries in Middle-East has been involved in the Holocaust? Teach me history!

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WilliB: Here we go! The Holocaust, death of millions, has been taken hostage for political agendas.

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There is nothing wrong of focusing on the holocaust, it can be example of what hate can lead to, and we can learn to avoid any other genocide in the future. If a family got killed in your neighborhood and became an example of cruel crime, we are not going to say, why focus on this crime, we should focus on another crime in X neighborhood.

The holocaust demonstrate how racism, hatred and nationalism utilized to demonize specific group and blaming them for every problem, then punishing them and trying to wipe them out as if it is a solution. It is the same thing used today to demonize Jews and many other groups unfortunately. the lesson is not being learned well.

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Tumble:

" The Holocaust, death of millions, has been taken hostage for political agendas. "

Quite right, it has. And not only by the Iranian mullahs.... 40% of the muslim Arabs in Israel don´t believe the holocaust happened:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086115.html

Now where do you think they get this idea from? That is something Barrack Obama could have addressed in his Cairo speech, or in Buchenwald.

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Helter_Skelter:WilliB: How many countries in Middle-East has been involved in the Holocaust? Teach me history!

Um, how about Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the mufti of Jerusalem?

From Wikipedia: One of Adolf Eichmann's deputies, Dieter Wisliceny, stated after the war that he (al-Husayni) had actively encouraged the extermination of European Jews, and that he had had an elaborate meeting with Eichmann at his office, during which Eichmann gave him an intensive look at the current state of the “Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe” by the Third Reich.

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Beelzebub: How many countries in the Middle-East has been involved in the Holocaust?

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Tumble:

Strawman. Not "being involved" in the holocaust does not make holocaust denial OK.

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WilliB: take their land and tell them this is because the Holocaust. Of course they will not believe it! Obama in the Middle-East didn't talk about the Holocaust denial but talked about the right of Israel to exist. Having a word on Holocaust denial has much more significance in the concentration camp you like it or not.

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Tumble:

" take their land and tell them this is because the Holocaust. "

Who took Iran´s land? j

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Sushi: Stalin and Mao killed their own people while the Nazis tried to killed another race, but gencoide is genocide.

That's not how it works. You're allowed to kill millions of your own people as long as you don't cross the border and kill someone in the country next to you. Look at Saddam, Kim Jong Ill, Sudan, various leaders/countries in Africa. Any one of those situations killed more people than the current Iraq/Afghanistan conflict combined yet coverage of those two conflicts is more than all the other conflicts in the world combined. I've said before that not getting involved kills millions more than invasions...the difference is that those deaths aren't famous.

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WilliB: please, stay focused "40% of the muslim Arabs in Israel don´t believe the holocaust happened:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086115.html"

Holocaust denial serves Iran politics and others.

"Not 'being involved' in the holocaust does not make holocaust denial OK." who said it is?

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tumbledry:

How many countries in the Middle-East has been involved in the Holocaust?

When you consider that Mein Kampf is a perennial best seller in the Middle East - and throughout the Mohammedan world - I think the question becomes:

How many Arab countries wish they could have been involved?

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ok telepromter and others. let's start from the beginning.

All started with:

"it is shameful he did not specifically and directly adress his words to the same worldwide religious community he reached out to from Cairo the other day."

Obama's speech in Cairo had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Your argument is then invalid.

Speaking about the Holocaust denial in the Middle-East will be like preaching in the desert because a lot of people still wants Israel to be wiped out.

It's like trying to convince you that Obama is trying his best to restore a positive opinion about the USA (on different scale but you'll get my point).

The birth of Israel resulted of the WWII and the Holocaust. Don't you think it is more appropriate to talk about the Holocaust denial where the Holocaust took place? No?

"How many Arab countries wish they could have been involved?" thank you for the random "what if" argument but still invalid.

I give you a hint. All Muslims are not anti-semits, not all refute the Holocaust, not all are jihadists.

We have been evicted, segregated, murdered for centuries but guess what? We all don't hate Arabs.

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WilliB: take their land and tell them this is because the Holocaust." No, the Holocaust just made it more of a case with the Brits! Why do people like you keep on believing that no jews lived there? They declared independence is what they did. Get your story straight.

Additionally, there was just an article on cnn just a few months ago exploring Egypt and a few other countries that worked with Hitler. So how many, I can tell you for sure Saudi and Egypt have!

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Japan take note.

I was wondering when someone would notice the analogy.

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skipthesong: wrong guy.

"No, the Holocaust just made it more of a case with the Brits!"

After WWII there was a big exodus to Israel. What was said to the Arabs?

"Why do people like you keep on believing that no jews lived there?"

Who said that?

"Additionally, there was just an article on cnn just a few months ago exploring Egypt and a few other countries that worked with Hitler. So how many, I can tell you for sure Saudi and Egypt have!"

Anyways, did they deport any? Built camps or anything like that?

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I find it amazing the radicals are blasting Obama for reaching out to muslims on a thread about the president taking part in WW2 memorial, and commenting on the idiocies of holocaust denial.

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TumbleDry: Teach me history!

We're trying. How about reading Beetzebub's post again at 2:20. There's a history of collaboration between the Muslim Arabs and the Third Reich. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler in order to help expedite the extermination of the Jews. There was a Muslim division of the SS. The collaboration continues today with Holocaust-denial meetings hosted by the likes of Ahmadinejad and David Duke. And as teleprompter pointed out, Mein Kampf is a best seller in the ME. So you see, the Holocaust does have to do with Middle East. Obama's speech about Holocaust denial would have been just as appropriate in Egypt.

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President Obama has a family history witness to the Holocaust. I am glad he envoked that in his remarks. I also have a family connection to the this sorry chapter in our human history. I am half-German. My mother was the youngest in a family of twelve. She was born in 1940 and grew up in a town called Schwabish-Hall Hessental, near Stuttgart and Frankfurt. There was a forced labor camp set up near her town called KZ-Gedenkstätte Schwäbisch Hall-Hessental. The concentration camp system that the Nazi's set up was so intense and intricate that the only real English website I found that even barely mentions this camp is here.

http://www.gedenkstaette-vaihingen.de/English/History/

And they do it just in passing. In this one paragraph.

Finally construction work had to be given up in the middle or at the end of October 1944 because allied bombing made it impossible to carry on. So all the men still able to work were distributed to other camps like Bisingen or Hessental near Schwäbisch Hall. Two transports went to Hessental, one to Dautmergen and Bisingen and another five hundred men were taken to the nearby concentration camp at Unterriexingen to work on the airfield in Großachsenheim. 389 KZ inmates remained back in the camp of whom about 200 had to work at different places in and around Vaihingen/Enz.

That should give you an idea of the complexity of this evil, it touched all corners of Germany. Though barely a footnote in the overall history of the events of the Holocaust, this one camp is my families connection to it.

My Mother has told this story to me and brother many times. It was near the end of the war and my mother and her family had fled their home to escape the impending battle for their town as American troops started to arrive in the area. The Germans started to evacuate also the Jewish prisoners in the labor camp on a forced march to Dachau. It was a death march. My mother saw these half-starved Jews in there filthy prison uniforms and the Star of David badge on them. It is memory that still haunts her.

The Germans that also guarded the camp but weren't involved in the death march started to flee the area. In their haste they left the German Sheperds they used to guard the prisoners to go free and roam the countryside.

My mother and her family were also roaming the same countryside looking for shelter. They found a barn and settled in there. It was cold and the family just huddled together not knowing what their fate would be.

The German Sheperds that were roaming the countryside also came to the same barn as my mothers family. My Mother told us that she slept with one of the dogs that night to provide her a little warmth.

All I can say is 'Never Forget'.........My family never has.

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We should never for get that more gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, communists, socialists etc were killed by the Nazis than jews. And believe it or not, despite some of the nonsense written here about the mufti of Jerusalem, no Palestinians were involved in killing anyone in the camps but plenty of jews helped murder other jews and gypsies and others. We have to stop being blinded by the holocaust, it was not a jewish holocaust it was a holocaust mainly of those gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, communists and socialist people and unlike jews none of them have ever been compensated. Obama is correct we must never forget but let's be clear about what we choose to remember and not be blinded by those trying to excuse the terror tactics of the only race based state on the planet ..... israel.

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"despite some of the nonsense written here about the mufti of Jerusalem"

Hey, the radicals have to find some way to whine, since they have to agree with the President on this one or staand with the holocaust deniers.

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proximaking:

" nonsense written here about the mufti of Jerusalem, "

What "nonsense" was written here about the mufti of Jerusalem? He spent the war in Berlin, admiring Hitlers solution to the "Jewish problem" and raising muslim armees to help the Nazis. That´s not nonsense, that is historical fact.

" the only race based state on the planet ..... israel. "

And how is Israel a "race-based state"? Last time I looked, it was the only modern democracy in the region.

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proximaking: being Jewish has nothing to do with a race.

Helter_Skelter:

"There was a Muslim division of the SS" About 20'000 volunteers

"The collaboration continues today with Holocaust-denial meetings hosted by the likes of Ahmadinejad and David Duke." as I said before, the Holocaust denial is used for political agendas. You can distort everything you can for your own agenda.

Again, Obama was right to talk about the Holocaust denial in Germany not in Cairo that has nothing to do with it. He talked about the right of Israel to exist in Cairo toward Arab countries because they have to work with Israel.

Trying to assimilate all Arabs with jihadists, fundamentalists is sick.

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TumbleDry:

" Trying to assimilate all Arabs with jihadists, fundamentalists is sick. "

Of course. There are also Christian Arabs. Incidentally, Christian Arabs have not carried out a single act of terrorism against Jews or anyone else. To the contrary, Christian Arabs have been on the receiving end of muslim Arab violence; to the point that even the biblical town of Bethlehem which always had a Christian majority, is now a muslim town with a few thousand Christians left.

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TumbleDry: Trying to assimilate all Arabs with jihadists, fundamentalists is sick.

Who's talking about Jihad? The point here is that Holocaust denial is more of a problem with Muslims in the Middle East than Germany. Obama should have addressed this when he spoke there.

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Are all Muslims negationists? No.

Are all negationists Muslim Arabs? No.

Where is the most appropriate place to address all negationists?

a. Cairo

b. Mars

c. Greenland

d. Germany

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Are all Muslims negationists? No. Are all negationists Muslim Arabs? No.

Wow. Really going out on a limb there.

Where is the most appropriate place to address all negationists?

e. Mecca

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