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U.S. Congress clears historic health care bill

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thank god I live in a country that has national health cover.

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Thank God I live in a country that's about to finally have national health care.

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It is Slavery pure and simple!!!

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At last the US is being a bit progressive now. Its about time.

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national health care is slavery? please elaborate. dont just spit out vitriol with no foundation

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I'm very glad that the democrats stood up to the republicans lies and distortions and passed this landmark legislation. < :-)

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Slavery, & robbery. To be forced to work for someone's else's benefit, is slavery. To have money taken out of your pocket, without consent, is robbery. You may call it "Progressive", but I call it 'thuggery'. So many dim bulbs that can't see where this is going...

Moderator: Readers, slavery is not relevant to this discussion. Please focus your comments on what is in the story.

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Democrats didn't win a victory over the Republicans. The republicans didn't have enough votes to stop it in the first place. Doesn't anybody pay attention to what's going on? No they are just programmed and stuck in the right v.s. left thinking.

One question to my fellow Americans how are we going to pay for this?

In your personal life do you take on more debt when you are already drowning due to your spending? If you are like many Americans you probably do. Like the people who bought houses they couldn't afford then complained that they were being tossed out.

Again, I ask. How are we going to pay for this? Are you comfortable borrowing money mostly from china to pay for health care?

One democrat talking point is this will increase competition but it won't. What it will do is slowly but surely eliminate competition. You want fair competition then make insurance available across state lines.

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USAFdude, this latest version is quite watered down. I think that calling this "national health care" would be fine in a conversation among US residents, but it will get you laughed at if a Cuban or Canadian is in the room. Will this bill bring the US up from 35th place ranking in terms of medical efficacy? Possibly. I think Greece will be slipping a little, which helps.

I accept that this is the best the US can do. It should be disappointing to people; it is not something to cheer about.

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I guess there is something to be said for making a completely messed-up system slightly messed-up. But it's clear from this whole long story, that most Americans on the right do not have any idea of what "insurance" is (a pooling of risks for those who don't know) and how it works, and especially don't understand how it works when EVERYBODY is going to eventually make a claim. Pretty ironic considering the Republicans are supposedly the party of business, but not hard to figure out why they choose not to understand. They also don't appear to understand the difference between capitalism and freedom versus corporatism and exploitation. No real capitalist would ever operate a health insurance company, a real insurance company would be a money loser.

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Correction there, slightly LESS messed-up. 5SpeedRacer5 said it best, nothing to cheer about.

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Good to see the 'Me First!' GOP are getting their backsides handed to them on a plate over this bargain basement ¥94b/year insurance plan

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"Thank God I live in a country that's about to finally have national health cover"

But millions will still not be covered. And, contrary to Democrats' claims, it will balloon the deficit.

"slavery is not relevant to this discussion"

Then the readers who believe that forcibly taking money from one person to pay for another person's health care is slavery have no voice here.

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Some of the juicy provisions in this bill are going to kick in immediately.

Come November, Americans are going to have had 8 months to see just how badly the GOP was willing to hijack their healthcare by trying to block this bill.

Sure, it's not perfect, but, sad to say, anything is better than the status quo.

Had the GOP had their way, Americans, who have statistically proven themselves not to be able to take care of their collect health, would have made themselves sicker.

Probably there's a few conservatives out ther who have had a glance at U.S. health stats and know this deep down.

The shameful thing is that the conservatives are putting dollars before wellness. As anyone who has had a major health scare knows, health is exponentially valuable than a bunch of bank notes. In fact, good health is positively priceless.

But the GOP/conservatives would much rather nothing be done, in part so that pharma companies can continue selling a galaxy of drugs to sick Americans and reaping profits on the backs of sick Americans.

At the very least, this bill will encourage more Americans to seek preventative care so that health molehills don't become mountains, and small medical fees won't become bankrupting sledgehammers.

If anything else, this bill will show real clearly to Americans that the GOP were no only not willing to take any positive action to improve Americans' health, but that the same party was ready and willing to kick Americans in the teeth by allowing healthcare bills to spiral unchecked.

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"... Americans are going to have had 8 months to see just how badly the GOP was willing to hijack their healthcare"

You've got it backwards, Sushi, the GOP is trying to stop the hijacking of Americans' health care by the Democrats.

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Sarge said:

Then the readers who believe that forcibly taking money from one person to pay for another person's health care is slavery have no voice here.

No sarge, I think JT's policy is to let people make a comment no matter how dumb it is.

Boo, to Obams signing an order against any money being used for abortions. Abortions are part of health care for some women. We will someday win on that point also.

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If you think that it is slavery to have your money pay for the services someone else uses, I hope that you don't have any kind of insurance and that you never pay taxes. Furthermore, I hope that you never use roads, police, fire, or libraries. Because it would be slavery to have your taxes pay for the books someone else reads, and reading those books would contribute to the enslavement of others.

Or how about we talk about the REAL injustice here--for-profit insurance companies making millions off of the illness and death of citizens. People being kicked off of their health insurance or having their premiums hiked because they dared to develop cancer. People become slaves to jobs they hate because they have a medical condition.

I really hope this bill will at least begin to fix something. I'd love to be able to go back to the US someday without the fear of going bankrupt from medical bills.

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"Health care isn't only a civil right, it's a moral issue"

Pretty soon having a a car in every garage and two chickens in every pot will be a civil right and a moral issue, LOL.

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Well, that's done and I can honestly say...I have no idea what we are getting. Is it good? Is it bad? I can't tell through all the propoganda...

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Yeah, I wonder about that...

When is President Obama gonna take responsibility and become president in his own (public) mind?

Very strange.

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Reminds me of spaghetti code in programming. Keep trying to fix it and it just gets more and more unmanageable. Costs escalate, changes create new errors and users needs are not well served. The only way out is to look for a framework from best practices in the industry and rewrite the code in a controllable manner with testing being crucial. This will have to happen in the US health care industry.

We, in Japan, have our health and teeth taken care of at a reasonable price. The cost to society is much lower than in the US. Why?

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We, in Japan, have our health and teeth taken care of at a reasonable price. The cost to society is much lower than in the US. Why?

Here is your answer below. By the way with this atrocity getting passed a whole lot more American lawyers will be in the Doctors waiting rooms and not there to get thier sniffles treated but to line thier pockets even further enforcing this on the rest of us.

Welcome to OBAMACARE, The financing of Social Security, The delivery of service just like the DMV and delivered with all the compassion of the I.R.S.

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When Americans are given their much cherished freedoms and liberty to take their healthcare into their own hands, they comprehensively screw it. Zero malice intended - it's a clear-as-glass fact Americans are making themselves sicker. IMO, this is more than enough reason for tough government intervention. The problem for those who oppose government intervention is summed up in these questions:

1/ If Americans continue to manage their own health, are they collectively going to make themselves healthier? (A: Almost every statistics says no) 2/ What's a credible alternative to govt. intervention?

I haven't seen a single realistic proposal from conservatives yet.

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Vote 216 just came through. Amazing victory for the American people! Good work Ladies and Gents of the House of Representatives!

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1/ If Americans continue to manage their own health, are they collectively going to make themselves healthier? (A: Almost every statistics says no) 2/ What's a credible alternative to govt. intervention?

Americans spend more per capita than any nation on earth by a longshot on health care, 16 percent of GDP yet we rank 34th in the world over all. The problem is not can Americans manage their own health and are making themselves healthier, the problem is that huge chunk of that 16 percent of the GDP is being spent on flat out bureacratic bloat driven by lawyers and Government regulation in the first place and not on actual patient care itself.

The alternative is to reduce the costs of medical care through Tort reform, Regulatory reform, Portability of insurance across state lines, generic drug substitutes and open competive pricing for procedures so a patient can determine the best and cheapest place to go for that MRI if he needs one. Not more Government regulation and interference, that is the LAST thing you need right now.

Once you get the cost side of the house to actually reflect a truer measure of the actual service being delivered and reduce the 16 GDP down to a more reasonable 8 to 10 percent GDP as is the norm in the rest of the Industrialized world, then you can start to work on getting the rest that don't have insurance into the pool at that time with a real affordable policy, not the now that OBAMACARE will be passed institutionlized bloat that will be enshrined in law now.

We can't afford the present system as it is and anyone thinking adding this 2006 page atrocity of regulations and mandates on top of it is going to actually 'help' in some way in the long run has not taken a real look at the problem and the best way to reform the system. This is nothing but a power grab by the more far left wing of the Liberal side to ensure even more Government dependency on them so they can have a solid voting bloc for them in the future and never have to sweat losing power. Ask any inner city Democrat who core constituency is poor and dependent on Government for their food, housing and shelter and who they always vote for, but yet still remain poor all these years.

I haven't seen a single realistic proposal from conservatives yet.

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I haven't seen a single realistic proposal from conservatives yet.

Sorry Sushi,

answered it above before I included your last statement in my post.

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Moto, I don't recall 'most Americans' bein' against the CRA.

Anyhoo, one has nothin' to do with the other.

Most Americans who don't have health insurance, choose not to have it.

They'd rather take a trip to Vegas, a jaunt to Florida, a big screen TV or a second car. I think it'd be great to have a law that says if they make a certain wage then they should be 'forced' to pay from their salary. Better than other ethical citizens payin' for their healthcare while they're plannin' their next vacation out of state.

If you haven't heard, no American hospital or emergency room can turn anyone away. A good friend of mine - an illegal alien - broke her hip. With the emergency operation and six-week live-in hospital therapy to get her on her feet again, the cost was well over $40,000. It didn't cost her a cent. A year or two before, she went to another hospital for a heart operation. Same excellent deal. And hospitals won't report them to DHS or USINS. Another excellent deal. A twofer.

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45,000 americans will be saved each year now that this bill is becoming law. Republicans do not care about anyone who makes less than $500k as their working papers clearly show, they care even less about saving the lives of the uninsured.

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sailwind said:

The alternative is to reduce the costs of medical care through Tort reform, Regulatory reform, Portability of insurance across state lines, generic drug substitutes and open competive [competitive] pricing for procedures so a patient can determine the best and cheapest place to go for that MRI if he needs one.

Another alternative is to get the Public Option in the future. Get rid of all the anti-abortion clauses. Then one day give America total socialized medicine like civilized countries, like Canada and the UK.

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Another alternative is to get the Public Option in the future. Get rid of all the anti-abortion clauses. Then one day give America total socialized medicine like civilized countries, like Canada and the UK.

I believe this to be the plan. It's just going to take a long time to get there.

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sailwind said:

the problem is that huge chunk of that 16 percent of the GDP is being spent on flat out bureacratic bloat driven by lawyers and Government regulation in the first place and not on actual patient care itself.

and it is complete bullshit

Here is my....complete so called B.S with link at the bottom.

On the subject of “average,” consider a simpler way to judge health care bloat. What if America were a little more average among its peers in terms of health-care spending? The nation currently spends more per person than any of them, after all, but it does no better on standard measures of health. The U.S. spends over 16% of its gross domestic product on health care. Among the 30 members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average is 9%. Suppose the U.S. could get down to the level of France, the second-biggest spender, at 11% of GDP. That’s a savings of 5% of GDP, which for America works out to about $715 billion a year. That’s $6,296 per household.

But I’m just throwing numbers around. A better group to do the math is the non-partisan National Academy of Sciences. Its Institute of Medicine ran the numbers in September. It found $210 billion waiting to be saved from unnecessary services, like branded drugs used where generics would do. It also found $85 billion in overspending on doctors and hospitals that are overpriced relative to benchmarks. And there was $195 billion in unnecessary insurance administration costs. And a lot more. The total: $810 billion a year in health-care spending that doesn’t make us healthier. That’s 10 times the savings Congress is arguing over, only delivered every year instead of being spread over a decade. Per household, it’s $7,132 a year.

Read more: A Real Health-Care Fix Would Save You $7,100 at SmartMoney.com http://www.smartmoney.com/Investing/Economy/How-Much-Could-Health-Care-Reform-Save-You/?hpadref=1#ixzz0isA3G4Mn

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Where's the link to the actual percentage of tort costs to medical costs?

That was your bullshit claim. While you are there spend a little time getting ready for actual bureaucratic costs.

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Its wrong to take money out of someones pocket and put it in that of another. This is what Republicans say when they don't like the recipient. But if they do like the recipient, even the recipient is foreign, then its all good. Nothing spells hypocrisy quite like the word "Republlican".

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It is about "healthcare". Not taking the right to life away. Now generalizing about all Republicans is foolish. They want the best for America as well. So do the Democrats. Listening to each other should turn on lights and a middle ground found. We all want people to receive healthcare. But I worry when the taking of the right to life from weaker members of our society is seen as a right. People just cannot see a life there? Can common ground be found? I think they found it and the right to life is defended. Sailwind has some very good ideas as well. I am happy this bill passed.

Force pay system? There are already taxes that must be paid on income. Is it the same thing? I am not sure how this works. Will all these taxes make people not want to work? They still get healthcare, housing and food.

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zurcronium:"Victory is sweet. Next up nailing the banks that created the bush depression."

Bingo! I could not have said it better, my fine friend! What Barack has done today is simply too fabulous for words, and I am literally speachless.

Starting tomorrow morning the 45000 Americans who die every year because they have no access whatsoever to even the most basic health care will be dancing in the streets,if they arent ALREADY!

Well,I also must say your posts AGAIN confirm what I have also said MANY times - those of us to the north know our southern neighbours better than they know themselves or the backwards political system they still have there."Liberty",as stupid vilent teabaggers try to call it,died today, and the applause from Democrats in the Senate and House chamber was thunderous, and astounding!

Methinks Obama could be in line for a SECOND Nobel Prize.Why?Because if his figures are right, and clearly they are,50 million Americans who were denied healthcare by repubs will at last have access to it, but the reform will also save 190 billion,which should earn Barack the Nobel in economics, and help him bury sarah palin in 2012.I feel closer than ever to Barack.

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Come November, Democrats are going to have fun frying GOP a*ses by asking, 'What did the GOP do for Americans' health besides vehemently trying to deny them access every step of the way?' This victory is going to show America that the GOP is ready and willing to kick ordinary Americans in the teeth every step of the way.

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...the reform will also save 190 billion...

I'm laughin' so hard I p*ssed myself.

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obama victory speech is live now

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This bill is a triumph of We First over Me First. The GOP is toast. :-)

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I am happy it passed or about to be passed. So I get to return to America and go to a doctor and it is paid now? How is this going to work?

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SushiSake3:"This bill is a triumph of We First over Me First. The GOP is toast. :-)"

Yahtze! You can say that again, mon ami ! You,zurcronium and I DID have a hand, no matter how small, in helping to deafeat the GOPists and bring healthcare to the 50 million that had been denied it for decades by the repubs.As Canadians we can proud of the battle we fought here.

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Sailwind, one of the reasons the US spends 16% of GDP on healthcare is because the majority of Americans can't take care of themselves, as almost every statistic shows. The US is leading the pack in healthcare tech partly because so many Americans are so sick. It's amazing you can't acknowledge these simple facts.

Your suggestion of tort reform is lovely but it's not going to pay a doctor's bill of someone who has lost their job and health insurance thanks to the global depression that exploded under the watch of the party YOU voted for TWICE.

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Obama says this is what change looks like. American believed him and now he has delivered. And the country is better for it.

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Sushi, have you heard anything about the number of American physicians who plan to leave medicine if this thing goes through?

(Another bill to change it even further is bein' worked on right now.)

I want all my physicians to have Indian and Pakistani accents. They sound so melodious. This may just work out.

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OneForAll: How is this going to work?

I have no idea.

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The US is leading the pack in healthcare tech partly because so many Americans are so sick. It's amazing you can't acknowledge these simple facts.

Sheesh Sushi,

Did it ever occur to you that so many people in America are sick is because they are now living longer than ever before in the entire countries history? That the elderly require more expensive and more intensive care than the rest of the population, hip replacements etc? That ever actually dawn on you before you started this new meme of yours that American's can't take care of their own helath care needs and has to have Uncle sam 'do it' for them?

Wonder why Medicare is going broke and Social Security is also in the same boat it isn't because Americans ain't taking care of their health and living longer then ever now is it? Naw couldn't be that one.

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I want all my physicians to have Indian and Pakistani accents. They sound so melodious. This may just work out.

My dentist when I was younger was South Asian, and he was awesome. If this reform brings in more people like him then great. If it keep a bunch of whiney American born kids who only want to be doctors so that they can make 6 figures and be called "doctor", even better.

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"keep"--->"Keeps out", gotta not type so fast.

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Moto... I guess you don't know what an American doctor has to do to become a doctor and pay his own way. To pay the debts he or she owes... the insurance... the hours...

President Obama is not the friend of American medicine.

Conservatives tried to warn folks about HMOs but lefties got their way. Now they complain about HMOs and conveniently forget they were the ones who created that mess in the beginnin'. American doctors told the lefties they didn't want non-medical bean counters deciding on cost analysis who gets treated and who doesn't. But no... Lefties had to have their HMOs, and then flip this mess back on to conservatives.

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Anti-abortionists...why don't they get a life and fight for something worth fighting for?

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Anti-abortionists...why don't they get a life and fight for something worth fighting for?

Amusing the way you phrased this. Since of course they're fighting for life. I don't think theres anything more worth fighting for. Why don't you get a life, instead of fighting for death?

"Victory" for the loons. If I was a doctor right about now, I'd be looking to quit. The dumbs better pass the doc fix soon, or pretty soon there won't be a health care system worth bothering with. With this bill, I'm thinking the days of the US being a superpower are now behind it. On the plus side since Obama is going around bowing to everyone, I guess we'll be in our proper place though, so thats good.

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Fighting for death? That's rich, coming from a guy who wants to deny underprivelged Americans health care. How hypocritcal - you want to force parents to carry their unborn children to term, then turn your backs to them once they're born.

Shame on you.

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Doesn't Japan have at least quasi-socialized health insurance? When I studied and worked there, I recall having to enroll in social insurance--I was not given an option. If this is the case, shouldn't every conservative, freedom-lover on JT who lives in Japan be buying tickets to some pioneer-spirit full utopia somewhere, where everyone stands on their own two feet straight out of the womb? If you're in Japan in the US military, isn't your health care paid for with taxpayer money? if so, shouldn't you be heading to your CO and demanding a discharge so that you are not a part of a commie-socialist scheme?

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Canadians, Eurobeans, Middle Easterners... all comin' to America for quality health care...

Bull. Only RICH Canadians, European, and Middle Easterners come to America for quality health care; the rest can't even afford the plane ticket, much less health care bills on top.

It's about time Americans came first in the US.

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It wasn't just our healthcare industry that benefitted from their visits. -Hotels, department stores, airlines and on and on.

But hey, change you can believe in right. I'm certainly looking forward to some change. Anyone else looking forward to November as much as I am? Can't wait to help the bums that passed this mess, retire.

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Moto, American military lose some benefits when they sign on. Some even lose their lives. When I was in, no one 'called out sick'. That BS is for civilians. If you want to enjoy American military healthcare, I urge you to sign up for the United States Marine Corps and start takin' advantage now.

The American military pay taxes. All pay federal and most pay federal and state.

To answer your question, Japan is a socialist country. Nothing is free. If you want to pay taxes like the Japanese or most Eurobeans pay taxes you should tell your government.

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Only RICH Canadians, European, and Middle Easterners come to America for quality health care; the rest can't even afford the plane ticket, much less health care bills on top.

Well, dude, I guess their tourist bureaus won't be callin' on you any time soon for a public endorsement seein' as how you've trashed their socialist and/or tyrannical governments.

Good man, dude.

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The 34 Democrats who voted no on this may well win re-election. The 219 Democrats who voted yes on this face a tough re-election.

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The right wing outrage has nothing to do with politics and everyting to do with race and supremacy.

The Tea Party, far from being a spontaneous grass-roots movement, was the efforts of much shadow-organising by the very rich ultra-right wing oppsition to Obama, whose money faciliated a channeling of the forces of unintelligent racist America, into what we see today. Fuelled by those who cannot openly say they hate Obama because he is black, so find any kooky nut-case reason to offload the disgustingly selfish and dangerous energies into ranting about the Devil.

On reading this, I felt an uplift of positivity not felt since he got in office. The very few ultra-wealthy individuals of a neo-con government within a government than Bush fronted, whose only goal is to increase their profitable business of war and death, are not going down without a fight.

They will use every trick in the book. Steal elections, torture, tell lies about WMD's - the sole and only reason for going to war - and when exposed, treat the public with contempt, blatantly unconcerned they have been caught out, shifting the parameters and if you look at the actors and the cast who made the mess, swindled the planet with their ponzi's schemes, refuse to open their books for audit after receiiving trillions of taxpayers money - they are laughing all the way to the bank at the American people,

When poor people start getting treatment and America sees the sky aint gonna fall in, that it is far more civilzed to spend your tax-take on this than on the wars making a handful of billionaires dangerously disconnected: Then, then we will be closer to normalcy America.

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The GOP's relentless campaign to enrich the rich and kick ordinary Americans in the teeth just slammed straight into a brick wall. Come November, I'm wondering whether there'll be much left of the GOP to justify calling it even a fringe party.

We already know the script - the next big bill is energy, and true to form, the GOP will now start gearing up to block, deny and prevent Americans from taking advantage of renewable energy sources.

The GOP has got to be the most anti-American party in history.

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The GOP's relentless campaign to enrich the rich and kick ordinary Americans in the teeth...

yawn

Ya just lost me dere, bro.

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CONGRATULATIONS!! It's never too late to live up to your true potential!! :)

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Amazing...conservatives in general don't have a clue what 'socialism' means,' don't give a toss about anyone else besides themselves, and lovingly lap up any and all propaganda that their GOP overlords tell them to believe.

And if all that wasn't bad enough, I'm betting that almost every opponent of this bill on this thread who wants to deny others the ability to have health insurance.....has cushy health insurance themselves. You name them - Sailwind, RomeoRamen, Sarge...ALL have health insurance and ALL want to deny others the same priviledge.

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Moto, American military lose some benefits when they sign on. Some even lose their lives. When I was in, no one 'called out sick'. That BS is for civilians. If you want to enjoy American military healthcare, I urge you to sign up for the United States Marine Corps and start takin' advantage now.

Dude, I'd LOVE to. Three squares a day? Free housing? Pension? Semper Fi! Unfortunately, the USMC actively engages in age discrimination and won't let me in because I am "too old". Trust me, I have actually checked.

To answer your question, Japan is a socialist country. Nothing is free. If you want to pay taxes like the Japanese or most Eurobeans pay taxes you should tell your government.

As I said, I lived in Japan for many years, and I never once complained about the "evils" of paying taxes. As for telling my government, I do believe that I have by voting for progressive candidate who support universal health care and social programs.

I assume that you don't live in Japan then, because how could a someone who bleeds red, white and blue like yourself wake up in the morning knowing that you'll have to spend another day under a commie/socialist/Marxist system? If I were a bootstrapping Daniel Boone-like figure as most of the conservatives here act like they were, I'd have no choice but to commit seppuku rather than deal with red oppression!

What'cha got next?

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Ronin, You're hilarious! Have you really never heard of people who live just above the poverty line and don't qualify for food stamps?

I must say, you're not informing me of anything useful, but ripping a new a**hole in your arguments is certainly making me happier. Keep 'em comin'!

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Here's a nice little link that shows how the house members voted. I paste it here so everybody can see how they voted. If you're a democrat, pay close attention to who the ones that voted against the health care bill. They need to be voted out. We don't need any Dixiecrats in the democrat ranks.

I'm extremely happy it passed. < :-)

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2010-163

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And if all that wasn't bad enough, I'm betting that almost every opponent of this bill on this thread who wants to deny others the ability to have health insurance.....has cushy health insurance themselves. You name them - Sailwind,

Ummm...Could you show me when I have ever said or even implied I want to deny people the ability to have health insurance? One word or past post please?

I want to make it actually affordable for all and actually really control costs and not make the situation even worse by throwing another yet another layer of a bureaucratic nightmare which is all these bill does , but I guess that makes me a such a 'real' bad guy after all.

By the way my 'U.S Government cushy insurance' isn't so cushy. It's rationed and takes about two months now to even get an appointment, Military retiree's are at the very bottom of the U.S medical food chain in Japan. Thanks for wishing that on all other Americans back home.

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Sushi, one thing 'socialism' means to me is that a government makes laws that says it can better decide how to spend more of my own money than I can.

I wonder what kind of health insurance you think I've budgeted myself to be able to afford.

I'm not a member of the GOP and can't ever see myself bein' one. That's true for a lot of folks who have fundamentally the same values I do. Try not to let that word 'fundamentally' make sphincter automatically pucker.

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Perhaps those states that do not wish --by a popular majority-- to be covered by near universal health care can secede. Absolutely beyond reason to imagine the bile and caustic hate caused by... helping others. What a strange animal you are. The Right in the States make me laugh... It's fine to spend a billion dollars+ on a single B2 bomber, but the guy who needs some kind of medical treatment? Go whistle. Watch SICKO, learn.

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at 30k a year you will be living on the beach -but at least you will have ObamaCare when you get sick. You will also have the choice to not have health care -but that will cost you $$$$.$$

We are now paying money to not have health care = how backwards is that?

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Its funny, the AMERICANS are he only country prior to today that had an health care system that was primarily geared towards the interest of the insurance industry. Imagine that, the insurance companies rather than the sick. That 60% of all bankruptcy was attributed to health care cost, a significant factor that seemed to have been lost on the bulk of those hillbilly Republicans who voted for the status quo.

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YES WE CAN and YES WE DID! Congratulations to President Obama for staying the course even when it got very tough and nasty. To the US Congress for finally doing the right thing. And to Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi for keeping up the strong leadership. From a proud and supportive native Californian.

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Californian?

Heh, heh... Haven't you bankrupted your state enough? The rest of the forty-nine states hope we don't go the way of California. Sacre bleu. Sacramento...

Heh... Ya never loins.

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Sushisake3:"Amazing...conservatives in general don't have a clue what 'socialism' means,' don't give a toss about anyone else besides themselves, and lovingly lap up any and all propaganda that their GOP overlords tell them to believe."

Bang on AGAIN, good buddy. It is just funnier than funny watching the despereate scott brown supporters here driving around in their pickups listening to drugs limbaugh (a name I will NEVER capitalise)TRY and call Barack's program for TRUE change something they can't even explain, i.e. (it's Latin, kiddies, basically it means 'for example')the spooky s-word, socialism.

Well,methinks what the rightists,who clearly can't ever see the forest for the trees, think is that when Barack and the Democrats he leads talk about socialism it is just ordinary socialism, but clearly it is FAR from that, it is clearly a national effort.

Hence, the NEED to take over a car company and to nationalize health care,among other things.The WHOLE country, the sargies and the ronins included,need to get behind their president,because this is national socialism, which is a GOOD thing.

Here concludeth my lesson.

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With this ObamaCare you are having someone else "handle" your paycheck. I don't trust Obama's "handlers" either (NYC fly-bys, White House "open" dinner celebrations etc).

Obama could be spending my ponzi ObamaCare money on Molson White House beer bashes with the Canadian PM. (makes one wonder why Canada was pushing for ObamaCare)

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gombei... Most Americans don't want ObamaCare.

If President Obama didn't bribe a few congressmen and women in the last two weeks this wouldn't have happened.

Since you obsess darkly about America, are you gonna say you're unaware that most Americans didn't support Obama on this?

His first six months in office reflected the fastest drop in popularity of any American president. Obama doesn't have near the kind of popular support you want to believe he has.

Most Americans aren't behind President Obama. What incentive is there for me or anyone else to get behind this disaster.

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Its funny, the AMERICANS are he only country prior to today that had an health care system that was primarily geared towards the interest of the insurance industry.

Actually Everton, prior to today, America was one of the few remaining countries where Healthcare was prioritized to what was best for the patient. Of course we now join the ranks where the government decides whats best for the patient. Hooray, lets all hope the operations we need in the future, can be dealt with immediately, rather then in a year or 2 when the docs get around to it, as is common in more "civilized" countries.

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Oh, alongside this victory, Obama can celebrate putting thousands more people out of work with this bill. Isn't it wonderful! Everyone who used to work in processing and handling student loans, is out of a job. Hooray! Make sure and thank your local Dem come November.

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I think that when most Americans hear a defeatist conservative claim 'most Americans don't want this bill,' they know it's the gargled deathcroak of an individual who would rather see an insurance exec get richer than an American receive healthcare.

Gombei, have you considered starting your own talkshow? You'd be funnier than Rush Limpbough. :-)

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The democrats have spoken:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz031510dAPR20100313024827.jpg

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Attorneys General from South Carolina, Florida, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Pennsylvania, Washington, North Dakota and South Dakota are ready to file a lawsuit against the federal government when the affirmative action president signs this bill into law.

Heh, just wait until it gets to SCJ "Not true" Roberts.

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Gombei424Canada: that is indeed instructive for all of us, including those Republicans whose moral fiber or (lack thereof) is build on right wing cliches and dooms day rhetoric.

Those who immerse themselves in the politics of devision are never short of vaporous pronouncements about the impending disaster of health care reforms. It naturally follows that their political and social contrivances don't work in the real world where millions are being denied adequate health care.

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Sarge at 02:32 PM JST - 22nd March

The 34 Democrats who voted no on this may well win re-election.

The 219 Democrats who voted yes on this face a tough re-election.

This is based on what? Sounds like like another propaganda sound bite to me, or to be more accurate, another sargism!!!

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Nice to see the US government finally close one of the holes that has seen it fall behind most other developed countries. Now all Americans have a fair chance of getting health cover and the private health industry can shift forward into providing extra benefits and better care so as to win over customers, as is done in other countries where public health care is provided. So a win for people who were previously denied cover and a win for people who have private cover as they can expect better service.

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"We, in Japan, have our health and teeth taken care of at a reasonable price. The cost to society is much lower than in the US. Why?"

Ever hear the word HIDEBOUND? It means that your skin keeps you from growing. The US is hidebound. Based on several principles that appear to be unassailable, the US cannot change its health care system in a meaningful way. The system can make minor adjustments based on the framework it already has, but it cannot BREAK itself...break through its HIDE of constraint... and become something new.

Japan's system started a long time ago based on different principles. Canada's too. In Japan, the winners and losers know that they will get their share in the long run. They have been pushing back and forth for so long that everyone knows what to expect. The momentum of Japan's system is such that even in a CRISIS, the debate is over whether someone should pay 20% or 30% of reasonable medical fees.

What has happened in the US is a postponement, at least until 2014, of a day of reckoning that will have to come someday in the US. To use an Obama-ism, "the can has been kicked down the road" yet again. Look at the US system and the patchwork is obvious. A little more coverage for this group or that group provided by this group for that group. It is divisive, not distributive. If I say "I hope it works," then I am saying that I hope that Americans continue to deny their responsibilities to each other. I guess it will help more people be covered. That is a good thing. But it is vulnerable, and it looks so temporary. What I should hope for is that Americans will not think that this problem is solved. It isn't. They should save their cheers and get back to work on something better. Something more comprehensive and more permanent.

Something like what Japan has already had for half a century.

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It's really a pleasure to watch the right wingnuts in here rant and squirm, as if they were auditioning for an anchor post at FOX News. Someday when they're on IV drip or in a full body cast, coming down from whatever psychedelic drug they've been high on, they'll be grateful for affordable health care.

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It's pretty amazing to see a 1-term senator come out of nowhere to president and pass the biggest legislative change since Johnson's medicare in the 60s.

This one swoop has reduced conservatives to a bitter, spiteful bunch of angry background noise.

That's change I can believe in. :-)

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As soon as health care passes, the American people will see immediate benefits. The legislation will:

•Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

•Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

•Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

•Lower seniors prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

•Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

•Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

•Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

•Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

•Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

•Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

===========================================

I've seen some oponenta of this bill talk about repealing it.

They're going to have fun trying.......

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The GOP wanted to throw ordinary Americans' healthcare under a bus and leave it all up to the already-proven failure of 'market forces.'

The Dems said no.

Dems won. :-)

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Finally!

I am so pleased that this billed passed.

No, I am not an American nor have I any interest in going to the US, but to finally see the end of this news story in sight is so good, it opens up 20% of the rest of the world.

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goodDonkey at 7:27pm - "This is based on what?"

Reality.

"affordable health care"

Translation: Government-run and rationed health care. This is moving the country in the wrong direction, and most Americans agree with me on this.

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I am not a conservative by any stretch. I am calling it as I see it. It is a disappointment because Obama had to back so far off of his principles for the sake of a few neanderthals from the right who played some very transparent and stupid games. He and Pelosi should have pushed through some real change months ago. All America gets, after the sound and fury, is this watered down bill that would have embarrassed Ted Kennedy. Hillary Clinton had higher goals more than a decade ago.

Not change. Spare change.

The Dems kicked a field goal. That seems great until you realize that the first half is almost over and they started first and ten on the ten yard line.

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Sarge: "Translation: Government-run and rationed health care. This is moving the country in the wrong direction, and most Americans agree with me on this."

Translation: Sarge really doesn't know much about what's really going on. :-)

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"this watered-down bill"

Even this "watered-down bill" will do tremendous damage to my country.

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grafton: "but to finally see the end of this news story in sight is so good,"

Agreed. It'll be nice to take a rest from hearing conservatitives incessantly trying to spin reality.

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Sarge, come to the states for a while and you'll see quite a few more people who want the health care bill. Maybe the Americans who live in Japan don't want this, but in the states more people want it, then don't.

I'm pushing that we not reelect the 33 democrats that voted against the bill. < :-)

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David Frum, Former Assistant To President George W. Bush:

"No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?"

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Evan Handler, Actor, Author, Screenwriter, Journalist:

"The U.S. Congress seems to have taken the first steps toward offering government protections to American citizens in regard to their health care. This is being accomplished via an extremely imperfect set of inconsistent regulations, cobbled together as a result of courage, compromise, and cowardice, in ways that will infuriate many, but which will help millions. I'm not much of a praying man, but I say Hallelujah and Amen.

Do I think it's a good bill? Hell, no. But it's a start. And, in spite of all the threats, misinformation, and fear mongering (and all the unnecessary and redundant posturing by the "sanctity of life" cabal), it's being approved -- so far -- along with open statements that it's a "first step." Hallelujah and Amen, once again."

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"in the states more people want it, than don't"

"Sarge really doesn't know much about what's really going on"

According to the Charlotte Observer's poll asking "Do you approve of the new health care bill?" 24% say yes, and 71% say no.

Of course the majority of the Charlotte Observer's poll respondents are just a bunch of right-wing extremists, so we can't take that with a grain of salt. Maybe adaydream and Sushi can tell us about a poll that has the majority of the respondents approving of this debacle...

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Sushi. Thanks for posting that summary. I disagree with Sarge that this is really going to to grievous harm to anyone. But I also disagree that this is good policy.

Go down that list, and you see what was done. You constrain the "evil" insurance companies and distribute benefits to everyone else. You shove a lot of risk on insurance companies by not letting them let people pay higher premiums for their own risks. Is that good? I suppose if the master plan is to eventually bail out the insurance companies, that is great, but look at this. The result is that healthy people will pay more and insurance companies will have to figure out some way to get through. I guess that is what the US has now.

That is what the US has now.

So where is the change? Where are the lower drug prices? Tort reform? Regulated fees and charges for services and supplies? That "donut hole" is a flaw in Medicare, if I am not mistaken. There is no new initiative there. Where is "national health care?" It does not exist. Fundamentally, nothing has changed. There has been no national referendum on the question of whether Americans should be responsible for everybody else's health care. There are still "classes" of health care.

That is why Sarge has nothing to worry about. That is why the Republicans, even if they could not stop this, can look forward to rolling it back someday. All it will take is for one or two insurance companies to fail. But I have a sneaking feeling that this new system will be co-opted and it will never be repealed.

I guess I will say yippee and try to be positive about it, but I think this bill shows the gridlock and impotence of government in the US. They cannot improve this system without shattering it and starting over. That will never happen with 30% of Americans taking meds regularly. Also, 90% or so of the American people will become enfranchised under the current system. In a way, this is worse than things are now because now there is no large disenfranchised group who will scream for change. The US will never have universal health care. This bill pretty well ensures that.

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and yet another victory for america and a rollback of the bush pandering to big banks . . . with taxpayers savings in the billions. Just like healthcare bill.

Along with the major health care legislation, the House on Sunday approved a major revamping of federal student loan programs that eliminates fees paid to private banks to act as intermediaries.

House Approves Health Overhaul, Sending Landmark Bill to Obama (March 22, 2010) Instead, the government will expand a direct lending program, a step that the Congressional Budget Office said would save taxpayers $61 billion over 10 years, and use the money to increase Pell grants for students.

The student loan bill is a centerpiece of President Obama’s education agenda, and it was included in the budget reconciliation measure that also made final revisions to the Senate-passed health care bill.

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"Do I think it's a good bill? Hell, no. But it's a start. "

Yeah. I dunno. It looks like a finish to me. Can anyone give me a reasonable guess on what could possibly be attempted next? I think all the political capital has been spent to get this far, and it in fact gets all parties more deeply entrenched in their interests.

Sushi. I see your little blurb there that none of this will ever be repealed. Have a look at some of the crud that got passed along with the Patriot Act. Now tell me again with a straight face that a Republican administration could not find some way to change some "minor insurance regulations" along with some declaration of war on Iran, or Yemen, or whomever the flavor of the week happens to be when "the time is right."

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Socialists -- including "social engineers" -- don't get your hopes up just yet. Let's not forget President Clinton and welfare reform, driven mostly by The Heritage Foundation.

This is merely a speed bump in American history. Freedom Fries will prevail.

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Nancy Pelosi, whose firm but pragmatic brand of liberal leadership was integral to the success, should perhaps go down as the greatest progressive speaker the House of Representatives has ever known.

The first reviews are coming in and Nancy is looking like a champion. Perhaps more than Obama she made this landmark bill come alive.

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As soon as health care passes, the American people will see immediate benefits. The legislation will:

•Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

•Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

•Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

•Lower seniors prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

•Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

•Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

•Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

•Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

•Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

•Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

AND A FREE PONY TO BOOT! THANKS OBAMACARE.

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So, where will canadians like Prime Minister Danny Williams now go to get real healthcare?

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Losing gracefully is something the republican teabaggers just do not know how to do. They are great at losing however, just the graceful part escapes them.

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Thanks to Scott Brown and his teabagging just say no republican support for stopping healthcare reform, for a couple of months.

Victory is sweet.

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Losing gracefully is something the republican teabaggers just do not know how to do. They are great at losing however, just the graceful part escapes them.

Zurc from the article:

For the first time, most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, and face penalties if they refused.

What gracious prison term do you think I should serve if I refuse? Three to five years?

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Victory is sweet.

It'll be short lived, to be sure, so suck on this candy every so slowly.

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So, where will canadians like Prime Minister Danny Williams now go to get real healthcare?

Who is Prime Minister Danny Williams?

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Freedom Fries will prevail.

Wow, freedom fries.

I'm waiting to hear the screams and rants from the republicans about repealing this bill. I'm looking forward to hearing how the republicans will tell the American People how they intend to stop the Health Care Reform bill and take away the rights just afforded them.

Tell me how you'll phrase, we're going to take away:

(Borrowed from sailwind's post above and altered.)

*Protection against - Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

*Take away this protection - Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

*Protection from - Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

*Take away this change - Lower seniors prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

*Right, take away Tax Credits for small businesses - Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

*Allow an illness to bankrupt you - Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

Yeah tell parents of college students they can't be covered by Mom and Dad - Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

*Right, lets allow preventative simple illness to bankrupt the system. - Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

*Now patients have an advocate between them and the insurance companies - Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

Stop insurance companies from passing on the cost of insurance company stock market losses to consumers and the cost of overhead/real cost - Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

Yep, I want to hear the republicans telling their middle class and poor constituents how they will work as hard as they can to change this back to the old way of doing business. < :-)

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Who is Prime Minister Danny Williams?

Daniel E. Williams, the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. Sorry for the confusion, but in canada it seems like everyone in that country gets to hold some political office.

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Should read: US congress clears huge government payout to insurance companies. If this actually covered everyone and had some cost controls maybe there would be something to celebrate. When did the Democrats become the party of big business? I will for the rest of my life vote independant or write in a candidate. Anyone who signed onto this piece of crap can be assured that they will never again get my vote.

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A

mazing...conservatives in general don't have a clue what 'socialism' means,' don't give a toss about anyone else besides themselves, and lovingly lap up any and all propaganda that their GOP overlords tell them to believe.

And if all that wasn't bad enough, I'm betting that almost every opponent of this bill on this thread who wants to deny others the ability to have health insurance.....has cushy health insurance themselves. You name them - Sailwind, RomeoRamen, Sarge...ALL have health insurance and ALL want to deny others the same priviledge.

Perhaps those states that do not wish --by a popular majority-- to be covered by near universal health care can secede. Absolutely beyond reason to imagine the bile and caustic hate caused by... helping others. What a strange animal you are. The Right in the States make me laugh... It's fine to spend a billion dollars+ on a single B2 bomber, but the guy who needs some kind of medical treatment? Go whistle. Watch SICKO, learn.

You both over-simplify and miss the point. It's not an evil wish to deny anyone the means to get medical care when needed. It is not 'bile and caustic hate' that makes me opposed to this bill at all. Rather it's common sense, self-preservation and a little bit of old-fashioned ideology.

Let me start my saying I'm probably representative of the 'typical American', although admittedly tougher economic times have brought many to a lower end of the economic scale rather quickly - but too often from their own stupidity in the first place. I am by no means wealthy, and with wife and two kids struggle to make ends meet. I have a typical job, making a typical wage and pay into my company's health care plan which allows me and my family trips to the doctor with a co-pay. Not cheap but 'do-able'. Now in your myopic vision of the world, the poor who cannot afford health care and will now be helped by this bill are all wide-eyed children and parents who have tried so hard to make it in our economy, but the evil right has simply not let them do so. In my world - which is in an average-sized city in New York, it's not the Rockwell painting you envision. The poor are thus: a family where the father works a constructions job, when he's not drunk and can - which is infrequently; the mother who doesn't work for no reason other than the fact that she has four children that she takes ill care of and spends most of her day on the front porch chatting with a likewise neighbor and smoking cigs that (a) I couldn't afford and (b) will add to health issues for which I will now be expected to foot the bill. Family B is the single mother with three kids. It's not that the father died, but was just never part of the picture other than the horizontal shuffle through a late night of bad choices. Or now possibly the immigrant family. Yes, they might work hard and do the jobs that lazy Americans will not. But they don't pay taxes and are here illegally. Tell one of my Indian co-workers who has worked equally as hard and who is going through the proper channels to become a citizen that this is fair.

I work hard as well, and while not poor we barely make ends meet and more often than not have outstanding bills to pay. We don't take vacations often nor live beyond our means. So do I have a problem that you want to tax me more to pay for those who will not work, cannot work because of some stupidity on their own, or do so illegally? Yes, I most certainly do. If that makes me a mean person than so be it. I'm in the majority of Americans who make 'too much' to qualify for any assistance and too little to pay most of my bills. Now I'm being told I shall pay more for others.

The ideology part? I'm not a socialist, I'm a capitalist. Like it or not that's what this country was founded upon. It is about freedom from persecution. But America has always been about the American Dream. This dream was that you can come to this country and make money. Now many of you would have those that do feel guilty for having the audacity to make that money, and that those that do should pay for those who cannot or will not. My ancestors came here with little more than the shoes on their feet. Some made it through hard work, some didn't. But they didn't expect to be handed it all for free. While certainly there are those that genuinely need, your new legislation that you're all so gleefully patting each other on the back for doesn't take into account the huge amount of abuse.

After you're all done singing Kumbaya and doing a group hug, you might want to actually read through the legislation, review the current systems in place (oh yes, I know the Canadians on here are crowing about their 'great' system)and think about all of the consequences. I can name a few: increased taxes obviously; fewer incentives for doctors means a 'watering down' of the quality of care; likely longer wait times to be seen by a doctor; the pushing of cheaper treatment plans that might not be the best solution; a sh*tload of new bureaucracy to add to the incredibly wasteful red tape already in place in our health care system.

The democrat's consensus on ramming through a bill that is highly unpopular seems to be 'better to do something than nothing' which is dangerously stupid thinking.

and Sushi you seem to be advocating socialism - i.e. more government control and socialized medicine.

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As for me, I advocate that those democrats who voted against this bill not get re-elected. < :-)

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2010-163

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You know you are a U.S. liberal if:

you think helping 32 million people by hurting 270 million people is a good thing;

you think that by giving health insurance to people who didn't have it will cause them to change their unhealthy lifestyles that caused their health problems in the first place;

by giving a person a fish, you think you are teaching a person how to fish.

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adaydream is right - it'll be political suicide for the GOP to try to repeal this bill. But hey, the GOP is a class act at political suicide - just look at how hard they opposed this bill. Zurc is on the money, too. Conservatives wail about health insurance but are cool with house and car insurance. They slam this govt.-run healthcare as 'socialist' but are just fine about using govt.-run Medicare/aid.

The problem with conservatives is they couldn't run a consistant argument even if they wrote it on their hands and held it right before their eyes. It's getting hilarious - conservatives' worst enemy is their own arguments. More holes than a sieve. :-)

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Did anyone else watch the GOPs closing attacks on this bill before the vote? They were pathetic. Most were just reading as if from a script and hardly any sounded as if they actually believed what they were saying. Lame, shallow and soulless - timeless conservatives traits.

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Health Care Will Pass

http://www.mullings.com/03-19-10.htm

And on Monday … guess what? The sun will come up. The Earth will continue to spin on its axis. America will not be officially renamed: France; neither Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, nor Haile Selassie will not have come back to life; and Tiger Woods' return to competitive play will set an all-time record for viewers of the Masters.

Here's the point: The Democrats are only doing what Democrats do when they have the power to do it. If Republicans hadn't done so badly at the polls in 2006 and 2008 this wouldn't have happened.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Lunchmeat, so it was good the GOP got smoked out of their spiderholes by Americans in 2008, I agree.

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States are now lining up to challenge this Bill in the SCOTUS. That will hold up the Barack Hussein Obama Memorial Health Care Scam until the democrats who voted for this steaming pile of "legislation" are standing in the welfare line. This is far from over.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"the Barack Hussein Obama Memorial Health Care Scam"

Har!

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This, coming from someone who has relied on for years, and still relies on U.S. taxpayers to pay for his health care. Incredible...

Just like you, "Sarge". Incredible.

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The U.S. gov't will have to ask the Japanese gov't to arrest me and hand me over to them if they want to prosecute me for refusing to pay into some health insurance I will never use.

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The Democrats are only doing what Democrats do when they have the power to do it. If Republicans hadn't done so badly at the polls in 2006 and 2008 this wouldn't have happened.

All of which was decided by a majority of the American people.

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"All of which was decided by a majority of the American people"

Could you show us a poll that shows that a majority of the American people support this health care legislation? Thanks.

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The U.S. gov't will have (to ask the Japanese gov't) to arrest me and hand me over to them if they want to prosecute me for refusing to pay into some health insurance I will never use.

You have just defined ObamaCare = You must pay to not have healthcare. =A form of HealthControl.

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Unless someone can provide a link to any opinion poll from the last three months showing a majority of Americans supporting the Senate plan, the democrats did not defeat the Republicans, they defeated the will of the American people.

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Ah Romeo, you hit the nail on the head. It's not what the people want, it's what the party wants. Has an ominous ring to it, doesn't it?

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The more I think about it, the funnier – or sadder – the whole thing is. It’s like a teenager buying his first car. As long as it looks cool and has a kick @ss stereo, that’s what they’re looking at. Oh, they know that it has an engine, four doors, a trunk, sort of how the cd player works. The 120 page manual that comes with it – who reads that? The contract and other fifty pages you sign when you buy?....c’mon. The financial contract - You’re kidding right? Besides mom and dad will pay if they can’t.

The President went out of his way to formulate as much of this behind closed doors – or at least away from Republican eyes – that he could. Something very ethically wrong there - but okay, I’m sure Republicans have done it on former legislation as well. We’ve had lawmakers admit that they don’t read most of the pages of a bill – did anyone really even read through this one? Did any of you, who espouse how great it will be? What does the ‘fix-it measure’ entail? Oh, I’m sure you all know the basic meat and potatoes as told to you by the car salesmen – i.e. your political brethren. But do you really know and understand the minutia? Do you know if there is some problem that will metaphorically be the stuck accelerator pedal on this model you all just had to have? Or after costing me and my fellow tax payers an arm and leg, will it just be another Edsel?

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Do you guys really think when it comes down to it, that supporting this wasn't political suicide? Really? Repealing it won't be suicide. It will be unpopular, but nothing like what we have now.

I find it amusing, that people like Zurc, who isn't American, and probably has never even been to America, is so in favor of this bill. Why I wonder?

Congresspersons voting the way their constituents demanded, like we do in America. You're quite welcome.

Since the vast majority of Americans opposed the bill, them foisting this on us irrespective of our wishes, is not doing as their constituents demand. Its doing as the President demands. Every single Dem who voted for this, will be tarred as 'just another Obama lackey'. I can't wait to see them try to get re-elected. Looking forward to campaign commercials that state in effect, 'Please re-elect me. I know I totally screwed you over, but I'm a good guy! I did it for you. Because we all know best!'

Someone here mentioned that Republicans are unable to lose gracefully. Turn that around, Dems are unable to win gracefully. Come November, we'll see how well they do what Republicans are accused of, being sore losers.

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http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/22/rel5a.pdf

As you may know, the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate are trying to pass final legislation that would make major changes in the country’s health care system. Based on what you have read or heard about that legislation, do you generally favor it or generally oppose it? Mar 19-21 2010 Favor 39% Oppose 59% No opinion 2%

=Americans are against Obama PonziCare.

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Monkeyz: I really hope this bill will at least begin to fix something.

That's pretty much where I stand. If it's a mistake then we'll change it or correct it. But something had to change. Government is sometimes a necessary evil and this is one of those cases. You can't just say the word "government" and think that's always some kind of unshakable winning argument that trumps universal care.

Hopefully this is just the beginning and not the end. Next we can focus on tort reform and cost or tweak the system to make it better.

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In three months this bill will be seen as a god send.

Even the backward rubes who do not know what is best for them and continue to vote for the rich elite who run the republican party will benefit. The rest of us have to care for our sick and damaged palin types.

Get ready retreads, the Obama machine is just now getting rolling. Next up those fatcat losers who run the economy into the ground while bush and his corrupt cronies did nothing. Until it was too late. Lehman Brothers failure has shown all the criminal nature of the WS fatcat. Jailtime is coming.

This is what change looks like lemmings.

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Sarge -

And your link doesn't show that a majority of Americans support this debacle. Keep trying.

No need to. America has spoken through its elected representatives. Refer to the title of this article. Goodbye.

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Tigermouth: So do I have a problem that you want to tax me more to pay for those who will not work, cannot work because of some stupidity on their own, or do so illegally? Yes, I most certainly do.

That doesn't describe the problem. You fit nicely into a box. And that box means your included in coverage. The problem is that you feel you've earned your way into the box and that others who aren't there with you simply choose not to be. That's where you go off track.

You should be asking yourself this: Are you OK with busting your ass to pay your premiums, only to be dropped from coverage if you or someone in your family gets a disease? Are you OK with not being able to change jobs because someone in your family might develop a preexisting condition that will make changing providers impossible? You are good or smart or better or whatever, you're just plain lucky.

To date I've been lucky, too, I've never had any kind of serious medical problem. But I've seen family and friends, people just like you and me who paid their premiums and thought the system was good when all they needed was a checkup, suddenly have their lives turned upside down when their bodies suddenly took a left turn on them.

A friend of mine developed diverticulitis, which is when the large intestine becomes inflamed. It has nothing to do with lifestyle, eating habits, exercise. If it did then it wouldn't affect him since he's very health conscious. It's just a completely random disease that one day decided to choose him as a host. It required surgery and a week's stay in the hospital and there are certain foods he's now not able to eat.

What's the point? The point is that that could easily happen to you or me tomorrow. We're in the box one minute, then we're out of it the next. For me, a person living overseas, it is troubling to think of what could happen if something like that happened to me in Japan. If it's serious or expensive enough it could mean that I couldn't afford to move back home and have it be treated as a pre-existing condition. For someone such as yourself it would mean the prospect of losing your job could wipe you out financially because of the medical costs of obtaining new coverage with that condition.

That's the system that we have, and it's the system you're right in the middle of. Your anger at paying for others assumes a timeline where you or your family will never require medical coverage that will ever put your insurance in jeopardy, and that's just not sound reasoning. It's more like gambling. You're one disease away from being outside of the box. Think about that and then tell me how much confidence you have about your situation.

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Well, Democrats do control both Houses of Congress, as been repeatedly said. So I guess they finally did something about it.

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Or rather, Obama finally did something of note, after the first year of "what has he done lately?"

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Lostrune2 - I hear ya. The poor, shattered Repubs have don't nothing but bitch about how Obama "did nothing" his first year; now, that America's prayers have been answered by the passage of the Health Care Bill, the Repubs do what? Continue to bitch. I can't possibly imagine what it's like to be so completely anti-American.

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You should be asking yourself this: Are you OK with busting your ass to pay your premiums, only to be dropped from coverage if you or someone in your family gets a disease? Are you OK with not being able to change jobs because someone in your family might develop a preexisting condition that will make changing providers impossible? You are good or smart or better or whatever, you're just plain lucky.

SuperLib, you do have a good and valid point. I'm not disputing that our health care system has always had serious issues that needed to be addressed, nor am I disputing that previous administrations failed to properly do so. I've had friends in similar circumstances as your own. Of course I wouldn't wish to be dropped for some condition. But you must stick with the selling point that was so hammered home that it is 'health care for everyone'. And conversely, no matter how you wish to paint it, through taxes I'm paying some part of that bill. I think there are other reforms that could/should have been enacted first before jumping on this bill that is so unpopular - and make no mistake that it is indeed not a popular choice. It's easy to say 'America has spoken through it's elected representatives' but we all know that is a misnomer. Elected representatives can and do frequently vote for legislation that we as individuals would never approve of. We vote on party lines or for the lesser of two evils in some circumstances, and saying that is a true representation is often just not so. I should add if that were the case, you would have to concede that all things done under the Bush administration were the result of 'America speaking through its elected representatives', and if you are an American, despite being Democrat, it was your choice. Faulty logic I'm certain you'll agree.

I am tired of seeing posts from selfish immature immoral losers who do not have the balls to be responsible for themselves. They live is a fantasy world where they are all alone and everyone has to pay for their mistakes or misfortune. Grow up all of you. Get a clue on how insurance works and what being a citizen of the USA with its responsiblities means. At some point mom and dad must stop wiping your rear end. All this freedom crap from the right just means I want others to pay for me because I am a big baby and do not want to grow up.

Really, its all so just so much dribble from these posters. Five year olds have more sense.

Zucronium you never cease to make me both wince and chuckle. Your arguments are always illogical and nonsensical, but amusing none-the-less. I must wonder why a Canadian has such a vested interest in the U.S. political system, but perhaps you're a 'wanna-be'. I'll address your posting anyway.

You are tired of posting from immature, immoral losers who do not have the 'balls' as you so eloquently put it to be responsible for themselves. Why then, might I ask you, should I be responsible for paying for medical coverage through my hard-earned tax dollars for a group that likely largely contains the very same said 'losers'? Granted, not everyone without health coverage fits in such a case, and as SuperLib pointed out, there are those simply dropped, etc. But street sense (that meaning having lived in several major cities and several different states and being observant of my fellow man) tells me that for every two people legitimately without coverage there are four or more that could be working and paying for coverage but are not. Why SHOULD I pay for their health coverage? The goodness of my heart? Believe it or not, I have one and it is noble I hope. But too often liberals confuse nobility with naivety. Why IS it my responsibility to foot the bill for all?

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Either I read the thing wrong or the people on JT are getting way more excited about this than is merited. The plan expands Medicare a bit, it prevents discrimination of those with preexisting conditions, and modifies a few programs but, contrary to some of the posters, it doesn't have a public option and I doubt any attempts to pass a public option plan would pan out even among democrats. Some of the bits and pieces were nice but it was so loaded down with backroom talks and special deals that it stripped any redeeming features away.

If anything liberals should be enraged, it doesn't reduce the cost of healthcare, it just prevents the rates from going up more...most of the time and there is no public option. Plus it requires everyone to buy health insurance, that’s great for insurance companies but not so great for the people that aren't quite poor enough for Medicare.

I am tired of seeing posts from selfish immature immoral losers who do not have the balls to be responsible for themselves. They live is a fantasy world where they are all alone and everyone has to pay for their mistakes or misfortune. Grow up all of you. Get a clue on how insurance works and what being a citizen of the USA with its responsibilities means. At some point mom and dad must stop wiping your rear end. All this freedom crap from the right just means I want others to pay for me because I am a big baby and do not want to grow up.

I have minimal debt, I pay taxes, I have no reason to believe I'll be able to collect even a fraction of what I put into Social Security, I don't default, I've never been supported by a government program even when I qualified, and I make it a point to take care of my own needs without interfering with others. That’s not a fantasy that’s my reality; I expect nothing and give what I'm willing to give. To that end I am a greedy, relatively unsympathetic, and terribly straight forward individual and I have absolutely no problem with that. It is because of people like me that I find most forms of regulation to be useless piles of rubbish because no matter how much you regulate, control, and manipulate a U.S system those with the motivation will always find a loophole and I'm willing to bet that every single private health insurance company in the country is finding ways to profit off of this bill even as I type. You can change the rules, but you can't change the game.

This bill was...annoying but it could have been worse.

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tigermoth -

It's easy to say 'America has spoken through it's elected representatives' but we all know that is a misnomer.

Nope, we "all" would admit to no such thing. Our Congresspersons know very well what their constituents think of this bill; there's no way they couldn't, given the amount of press dedicated to the bill recently.

Those same representatives know full well that their careers depend largely on their vote for or against this bill, given the polarization in American society caused by the debate surrounding the bill. If these Congresspersons, in your words, "can and do frequently vote for legislation that we as individuals would never approve of", and did so relative to this bill, they might as well kiss their careers goodbye today. Hence, the very fact that on this particular bill more Congresspersons voted "aye" instead of "nay" indicates that they upheld the wishes of the majority of their constituents, especially in view of the sensitivity of this issue. I agree with you that sometimes "we vote on party lines or for the lesser of two evils in some circumstances, and saying that is a true representation is often just not so", however I don't feel that this is the case with this bill given the reasons I've outlined above.

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Next up those fatcat losers who run the economy into the ground while bush and his corrupt cronies did nothing.

Well since these fatcats have taken over U.S. healthcare now they can to better things like betting against Greece (Goldman Sachs), attacking Iran etc. >50% of your tax fiat dollar go towards military now.

If Obama would just give up the war-mongering everyone in America could have the best health care -illegals included. But they are against real change and in fact refuse to change. It is the same old, same old -just another Ponzi repackaged and sold thru the media to you.

Like Manna from heaven they eat it up though. People still believe in the Ponzi (fiat debt)

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except that Obama IS ending the war started by G.W. Bush.

You are a Lib and I understand that, but my definition of "IS" is "right now." Don't make excuses for these people. You either do it or you do not.

End the wars and stop indebting the American taxpayer to this "fiat dollar" that sponsors all this terrorism around the world and steals real assets. I am against this type of fiat financial terrorism and any support of it = This "HealthCare" plan supports these terrorists especially since more that 50% of tax money is officially allocated to these "wars"

=this War spending has actually increased with Obama and has no plans of turning back.

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Badsey -

this War spending has actually increased with Obama and has no plans of turning back.

Gee, wasn't it you Repubs who just swore on a stack of Bibles that Obama would cut military spending and that I'd end up on welfare?! ROTFLMAO!

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Some of the posters failed to mention the great benefit foreigners living over seas can expect: If you cannot proved you have medical insurance (in the US) you will be assessed a $750 penalty (per person) when you file your US tax return.

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President Obama did "win" by forcing through a socialist health care plan. Now, even more people will become dependent upon government, many who would rather stand on their own - but will be forced to be on ObamaCare anyway. The government now requires a much larger budget and a huge amount of taxation is about to begin.

This is what Obama means about change; dependency upon government, high taxes, more responsibility for government and less for individuals. We no longer seek to care for one another because we share common values, we do so because the government will force you to. Of course, the effect is an America where everyone seeks to maximize for themselves what benefits they can gain from the government and not from their own efforts.

America's Founders did risk their lives for this. In fact, their sacrifices were for just the opposite. No one will ever convince me that dependency is what made America great. This health care debacle is a huge and historic disaster. There is not enough money to pay for this. In fact, there isn't enough money to pay for the social programs we already have. The states are in for a financial disaster because Medicaid costs will explode. If you think California is in trouble now, wait to see how deep in debt the state will be in four years.

If you are an American and you are happy that there is now officially socialized medicine in your home country, I would suggest you take a look at the riots in the streets in Greece. That is the future of America - there is no free lunch. When you make yourself dependent upon government, but be surprised when the government screws you over. Then you will wish that you had listened to the Founders.

I wonder what the national debt will be at the end of Obama's first term?

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If you still do not believe that Americans do not support ObamaCare, even CNN - a very left of center news organization - has found differently:

59% against, 39% for....

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/22/rel5a.pdf

Don't bother looking for these numbers on the front page of CNN.com, it doesn't fit their ideological agenda.

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We must all do our part to indebt ourselves to the Federal Reserve Bankers =that is the only way we can save (enslave) ourselves.

It's nice to see that the smart Libs like USAFdude have this Gov gravy-train all figured out. Where do I shake my can and beg for my ObamaJob and handout? Someone help me out since I am new at this. I can even assist the Seiu in roughing up a few conservatives

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Good point Badsey! So, USAFdude. What should we do to jump on the old Gov-gravy train, so that we can get more then we give in this Ponzi scheme of yours? Come on you die hard loons, clue us in about the best way to benefit from this, well apart from the Obvious of voting Republican come November.

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This is what change looks like . . .

Once reform is fully implemented, over 95% of Americans will have health insurance coverage, including 32 million who are currently uninsured.2

Health insurance companies will no longer be allowed to deny people coverage because of preexisting conditions—or to drop coverage when people become sick.3

Just like members of Congress, individuals and small businesses who can't afford to purchase insurance on their own will be able to pool together and choose from a variety of competing plans with lower premiums.4

Reform will cut the federal budget deficit by $138 billion over the next ten years, and a whopping $1.2 trillion in the following ten years.5

Health care will be more affordable for families and small businesses thanks to new tax credits, subsidies, and other assistance—paid for largely by taxing insurance companies, drug companies, and the very wealthiest Americans.6

Seniors on Medicare will pay less for their prescription drugs because the legislation closes the "donut hole" gap in existing coverage.7

By reducing health care costs for employers, reform will create or save more than 2.5 million jobs over the next decade.8

Medicaid will be expanded to offer health insurance coverage to an additional 16 million low-income people.9

Instead of losing coverage after they leave home or graduate from college, young adults will be able to remain on their families' insurance plans until age 26.10

Community health centers would receive an additional $11 billion, doubling the number of patients who can be treated regardless of their insurance or ability to pay.11
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Thanks to last night's vote, that child of yours who has had asthma since birth will now be covered after suffering for her first nine years as an American child with a pre-existing condition.

Thanks to last night's vote, that 23-year-old of yours who will be hit one day by a drunk driver and spend six months recovering in the hospital will now not go bankrupt because you will be able to keep him on your insurance policy.

Thanks to last night's vote, after your cancer returns for the third time -- racking up another $200,000 in costs to keep you alive -- your insurance company will have to commit a criminal act if they even think of dropping you from their rolls.

Yes, my Republican friends, even though you have opposed this health care bill, we've made sure it is going to cover you, too, in your time of need. I know you're upset right now. I know you probably think that if you did get wiped out by an illness, or thrown out of your home because of a medical bankruptcy, that you would somehow pull yourself up by your bootstraps and survive. I know that's a comforting story to tell yourself, and if John Wayne were still alive I'm sure he could make that into a movie for you.

But the reality is that these health insurance companies have only one mission: To take as much money from you as they can -- and then work like demons to deny you whatever coverage and help they can should you get sick.

So, when you find yourself suddenly broadsided by a life-threatening illness someday, perhaps you'll thank those pinko-socialist, Canadian-loving Democrats and independents for what they did Sunday evening.

If it's any consolation, the thieves who run the health insurance companies will still get to deny coverage to adults with pre-existing conditions for the next four years. They'll also get to cap an individual's annual health care reimbursements for the next four years. And if they break the pre-existing ban that was passed last night, they'll only be fined $100 a day! And, the best part? The law will require all citizens who aren't poor or old to write a check to a private insurance company. It's truly a banner day for these corporations.

So don't feel too bad. We're a long way from universal health care. Over 15 million Americans will still be uncovered -- and that means about 15,000 will still lose their lives each year because they won't be able to afford to see a doctor or get an operation. But another 30,000 will live. I hope that's ok with you.

If you don't mind, we're now going to get busy trying to improve upon this bill so that all Americans are covered and so the grubby health insurance companies will be put out of business -- because when it comes to helping the sick, no one should ever be allowed to ask the question, "How much money can we save by making this poor bastard suffer?"

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Reform will cut the federal budget deficit by $138 billion over the next ten years, and a whopping $1.2 trillion in the following ten years.5

Only a so-called progressive, willfully ignorant of economics, could believe that nationalising 1/6th of the US economy is going to go to plan, be cost efficient, and save money. CBO estimates use a projection of current GDP estimates, so you could not be more wrong.

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55% of voters would rather see Congress scrap the original plan and start all over again. Of course, what do the voters know...

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55% of voters would rather see Congress scrap the original plan and start all over again.

Even CNN, in the tank for Obama since early 08, report a majority oppose the bogus HCR.

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Only a so-called progressive, willfully ignorant of economics, could believe that nationalising 1/6th of the US economy is going to go to plan, be cost efficient, and save money. CBO estimates use a projection of current GDP estimates, so you could not be more wrong.

Only someone so conservative he'd rather be regressive, could possibly fail to see the benefit this'll bring.

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I haven't been following this issue too closely, as I don't live in the USA now. But if US citizens must have government-approved insurance, does that mean all US citizens living in Japan and using Japanese insurance (as is required here) will have to get US insurance too or pay the $750 fine each year for the privilege of not having something we can't use except on a visit to family?

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Knowitall:

http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2009/11/senate-health-care-bill-expats-exempt.html

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"Reform will cut the federal budget deficit by $134 billion over the next ten years, and a whopping $1.2 trillion in the following ten years"

That's an even bigger whopper than Burger King makes.

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Only someone so conservative he'd rather be regressive, could possibly fail to see the benefit this'll bring.

Only someone with half a brain could look at the positives, and look at the negatives and think this is a good thing. Maybe its easier to use raw numbers eh. With this bill, the negatives add up to about 100, and positives about 10. Only a loon would think 10 is greater then 100. This bill does do some good things, but the bad far outweighs any benefit gained from it.

That's an even bigger whopper than Burger King makes.

And not nearly as tasty.

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Poor regressives, their little lives were just improved by the democrats and all they can do is shake their tiny fists in mock outrage.

Why do republicans want to spend trillions on failed wars that supposedly help Iraqis and Afgans but then want to let 45,000 americans die a year for lack of helathcare? With a program that will save money in coming years. Conservatives are just plain stupid.

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Perhaps those states that do not wish --by a popular majority-- to be covered by near universal health care can secede. Absolutely beyond reason to imagine the bile and caustic hate caused by... helping others. What a strange animal you are. The Right in the States make me laugh... It's fine to spend a billion dollars+ on a single B2 bomber, but the guy who needs some kind of medical treatment? Go whistle. Watch SICKO, learn!

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And conversely, no matter how you wish to paint it, through taxes I'm paying some part of that bill.

But on the flip side the law requires that people get health insurance, so the days of people not paying into the system will hopefully be behind us, except of course for illegal immigrants, which is a massive drain and should be the next priority for better health care. While you might not support the bill in it's entirety I'm assuming you do support the part where there will hopefully be fewer leeches that your tax dollars will pay for.

In reality I don't think anyone knows how it's going to change things. It's going to take a few years to see if it's a good or a bad thing. I support taking the initiative and trying to make a change for the better and I hope that's how it works out. But as always, there will be unintended consequences that people aren't aware of yet.

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Sarge said

Could you show us a poll that shows that a majority of the American people support this health care legislation? Thanks.

How about the last two national elections? You guys got your behinds kicked twice. How about the fact that one of the Presidents main campaign pledges was health care reform and he won by 53%? Now you want to throw out a couple of Rasmussen polls to say the people don't want this? Har indeed.

n reality I don't think anyone knows how it's going to change things. It's going to take a few years to see if it's a good or a bad thing. I support taking the initiative and trying to make a change for the better and I hope that's how it works out. But as always, there will be unintended consequences that people aren't aware of yet.

Best post of the thread. And the great thing about this bill is that it is only a start. Plenty of room for tweaking.

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I see that KobeKid can't find a poll that shows that the majority of Americans support this health care reform either. This isn't the kind of hope and change many Americans were expecting when they voted for Obama.

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Elections Sarge, 2006, 2008 resounding losses for your side. The people spoke then and when they elected President Obama on a platform of HCR. Folks voted for change. Fox News and talk radio have done a good job vilifying this bill, but it's basically similar to what Mitt Romney did in Mass. There are a lot of ideas in it proposed by The Heritage Foundation in the early '90s in response to Clinton Care.

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But on the flip side the law requires that people get health insurance, so the days of people not paying into the system will hopefully be behind us, except of course for illegal immigrants, which is a massive drain and should be the next priority for better health care. While you might not support the bill in it's entirety I'm assuming you do support the part where there will hopefully be fewer leeches that your tax dollars will pay for.

That's sort of a loaded question. To get rid of one form of leaching my instituting another hardly puts my mind at ease. People will continue to leach, it has become the American way, and one that is now government sanctioned. And despite chotto's posting above that should be read to the strains of a wailing violin, I'm not buying it. I don't have a child with asthma, when my sons are 23 they can bloody well pay for their own insurance, or there is already relatively inexpensive plans I could purchase for students that will likely cost me and the taxpayers far less in the long run - particularly my kids who will be paying for this and the great stimulus package long after I'm dead and gone. It's a costly bill with no way to pay for it except through higher taxes. Period. Was the status quo a financial burden and waste? Yes. Did we badly need reform. Yes. But our great leaders just argued about it until they developed this rubbish that is now forced down our throats.

Wolfpack is the only one talking sense here. Maybe we need John Wayne and to 'grow a pair' as a society instead of falling into the liberal trap of government dependence where becoming financially successful and independent is seen as a crime. And those who don't wish to just hand over the money they worked hard for to those who have not for indeterminate reasons that may be of their own making are not quite unfairly labeled as heartless ghouls. Barnum's old quote about a fool and his money is never more true in this administration.

This country was created on the basis of having the freedom to pursue life, liberty and happiness on an equal basis. But that was never meant to be those that do must give to those who won't or can't so that all are equal. It was meant that by hard work, perseverance, integrity and ingenuity that all could achieve and succeed. It wasn't meant that we should create a welfare state, or a system of government dependence where those that do must pay for those that don't. The government was supposed to guide, not dictate. Wars have been fought to preserve this (or at least attempt to).

I'm not saying let the people die in the streets because they cannot afford medical treatment. What I am proposing is that governmental dependency through such things as socialized medicine is not something that will make our nation strong, but rather the opposite. I fully realize this sounds somewhat archaic to most of you with modern, liberal attitudes. But my father grew up during the Depression and was fiercely proud of 'making his own way'. If he didn't have money for it, we didn't get it. Credit cards? Didn't have one. Times have changed but not always for the better. Helping those who don't have get to the point where they can do is fine. Institutionalizing dependency is not, and the opportunity for abuse is far too great. And all with my tax dollars.

Sorry - had a point when I started this post, but working and typing at the same time sort of lost the momentum. I'm afraid the unintended consequences are going to be a great falling in the quality of care when being a doctor is no longer as lucrative as it once was. Quantity over quality is not encouraging when you need an operation.

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@Sarge: And the industrial-war complex doesn't leach of the Tax Payer? LOL. Halliburton didn't leach, no, bleed the tax payer? Your naivety amazes me. This GIVING will actually do some good. One of the main platforms of Obama's election manifesto was to... provide universal health care. Who got voted in? Go figure.

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Sarge -

I see that KobeKid can't find a poll that shows that the majority of Americans support this health care reform either.

But USAFdude can, and did. It's the article that covered Congress' historic passage of this bill, showing the votes of Congresspersons consistent with the wishes of their constituents. This issue has been to heavily publicized for our Congresspersons to not have received massive amounts of feedback from their constituents; their votes reflect the will of the majority, like we do in a democracy.

This isn't the kind of hope and change many Americans were expecting when they voted for Obama.

It's the kind of hope and change MOST Americans were expecting when we vote for President Obama. Just imagine - a President who KEEPS his campaign promises! Haven't seen a Republican do that in my lifetime! Har!

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So many Americans really have no idea about their own country's founding / history. If you weren't a white man it was not in anyway an equal opportunity endeavor. Now that someone has actually succeeded in introducing some form of equality in one aspect of society, you're all going nutz, what a strange animal the right wing is. Go Obama, make a fairer, just society and ain't it gonna burn the right, not only a black President but one who achieved something. Simply priceless.

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Yay for health care!

And HAHAHAH at the loser repubs.

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yongyang; "So many Americans really have no idea about their own country's founding / history."

Are you speaking of the "Italian Americans ? the German Americans ? the African Americans ? the Asian Americans ? the Hispanic Americans ? the French Americans, etc etc- just which group of "Americans" are you talking about ? Wow- speaking of "have no idea" ! If you had any "idea" of what you were talking about, you would refrain from such racist comments. The fact is we Americans are very aware of our history- and this health care bill, as "historic" as all the claims may be, is still unpopular with the vast majority of Americans who deride socialisic programs for what they are- failures.

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Go Obama, make a fairer, just society and ain't it gonna burn the right, not only a black President but one who achieved something. Simply priceless.

Oh, it's not priceless - there is a steep price tag attached, with no means of paying for it except the pockets of the American people, or possibly indebting ourselves further to our good friends the Chinese.

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On hearing the passage of this bill, I felt an uplift of positivity not felt since he got in office. The very few ultra-wealthy individuals of a neo-con government within a government that Bush fronted, whose only goal was to increase their profitable business of war and death, are not going down without a fight. They will use every trick in the book. Steal elections, torture, tell lies about WMD's - the sole and only reason for going to war - and when exposed, treat the public with contempt, blatantly unconcerned they have been caught out, shifting the parameters and if you look at the actors and the cast who made the mess, swindled the planet with their ponzi's schemes, refuse to open their books for audit after receiiving trillions of taxpayers money - they are laughing all the way to the bank at the American people, When poor people start getting treatment and America sees the sky aint gonna fall in, that it is far more civilized to spend your tax-take on this than on the wars making a handful of billionaires dangerously disconnected: Then, then we will be closer to normalcy America. Class dismissed.

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And countless DO rely on themselves, only 40 million or so are going to need The Man. Would you really, in all honesty, begrudge a child, or a senior citizen medical care because it was YOUR tax dollar? What is WITH that kind of thinking? So, what about the postal service? The fire department? The police? All paid for by everyone who pays taxes...

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Perhaps those PEOPLE that do not wish --by their own singular popular majority-- to be covered by near universal health care can secede from the United States where the bill as JUST been signed into LAW. Absolutely beyond reason to imagine the bile and caustic hate caused by... helping others. What a strange animal some of you are.

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ABC News has this summary of Health Care Bill Political Winners & Losers:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/health-care-bill-political-winners-losers/story?id=10169856

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Our republic has a mechanism for granting and withholding popular consent, and it is not the Rasmussen poll. It is the ballot box, where Americans have expressed an unambiguous preference for sweeping healthcare reform.

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Again, all of you claiming that 'America has spoken' because they elected Obama and we now have this funtastic health-care bill that the polls say most Americans did NOT want (we're not making up the polling results folks), you shoot yourselves in the foot a bit. Not so long ago you were talking about the unpopularity of Bush and 'his wars' but yet he was voted in for a second term. I suppose if you concede that most Americans agreed with him then I wouldn't have a problem with that, but most of you have spent a lot of time and a lot of space telling us just how much the American people hated and disagreed with the man's policies. Or does this only work one way?

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Tigermoth - I explained before how the heavy publicity surrounding this issue could only have made our Congresspersons hyper-aware of what their constituents wanted, so yes, America has spoken, and loudly.

Bush, on the other hand, started his second term with a certain amount of popularity; that popularity went straight down the toilet in a matter of months.

So, no, it doesn't work "only one way".

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But wait a minute USAFdude; you seem like a logical type so just follow this through for me. You saw the vitriol of the 'town meetings' that precipitated the first attempt. You've seen the polls - the results aren't made up and are even printed on liberal-friendly websites. Granted, I think polls can be manipulated to say what you want - but in this case they all say pretty much the same thing, and the question is pretty straight forward. The American people did not in the majority support this bill as written. The President did everything he could in my opinion to be as secretive as possible in explaining all aspects of the bill; too many meeting for 'democratic leaders' only. Sign it quickly before anyone can really read it (didn't he say something about Americans having five days to review any bill put on his desk for signature??). So much for an open, candid President. But you still maintain just because the representative voted for it that the majority of their constituents and the majority of the American public wanted this bill signed? Well, I suppose we'll see in the polls later on. Remember this conversation and we'll compare notes then.

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"Sign it quickly before anyone can really read it"

Including Obama.

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Come on Sarge, you can do better than that. The debate has been going on for a year and now its finally over with Obama winning and the just say no republicans losing again.

This is what change looks like Sarge. Better get use to it. In three months the healthcare bill will be popular and Obama will be a lock for 2012.

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The federal debt will explode. It might, but not because of healthcare reform. The Congressional Budget Office--which is probably the most reliable, nonpartisan number-crunching outfit in Washington--says the reforms will reduce government deficits by $143 billion through 2019, thanks to new taxes and fees and cost savings in government healthcare programs like Medicare. But opponents of the bill and powerful lobbying groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce say otherwise, and they seem to have had a stronger influence on public opinion than CBO's methodical analysis. A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation, for example, found that 55 percent of Americans mistakenly believe the CBO has said the healthcare legislation will add to the deficit. Only 15 percent know that CBO has said the opposite.

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The federal debt will explode. It might, but not because of healthcare reform. The Congressional Budget Office--which is probably the most reliable, nonpartisan number-crunching outfit in Washington--says the reforms will reduce government deficits by $143 billion through 2019, thanks to new taxes and fees and cost savings in government healthcare programs like Medicare.

Only someone with half a brain would believe even for a second that this will save money. Do you honestly believe that the 4 years the taxes will be in effect, that the money will be saved? Do you? Perhaps you're one of the gullible few who still believe in the social security "lockbox" too? Oh, and lets not forget the doc fix, without which, more then 1/3rd of doctors will be leaving their practice. With America already short of doctors, squeezing them more does not make good sense.

Only 15 percent know that CBO has said the opposite.

And how many of them know that the CBO wasn't given the actual figures, including the doctor fix? By all means, lets not forget that shall we?

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Did it ever occur to you that so many people in America are sick is because they are now living longer than ever before in the entire countries history? That the elderly require more expensive and more intensive care than the rest of the population, hip replacements etc?

Geez Sailwind, while 20% of any national medical-related budget is spent keeping people alive for the last two weeks of their lives, what you still propose is ludicrous. Japanese live until 100 or so, and this is not bankrupting Japan. Japan is bankrupt because of ridiculous roads to nowhere. Americans spend more on healthcare because they do not give a damn about their health and bodies. 30% obese!!!! Without a MAJOR freakin media campaign that is in the schools, in the workplace and to get people off their butts, yes, there will be very high costs to American health. But it doesn't mean the best recourse is to ration it, by kicking the poor off the rolls and letting them die.

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You saw the vitriol of the 'town meetings' that precipitated the first attempt.

Oh yeah, "Get the gov't out of my Medicare!" folks, real productive town halls

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I believe the selfish childish republicans will create all the trouble they can to derail Obama's good work. What the Americans need to do is get rid of their republicans once and for all.

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Molenir,

you did nothing to dispute the facts from the CBO. Typical non-response from the lost and increasing lonely crowd of angry teabaggers.

How about these facts, 50 million uninsured in the USA, 45,000 dying annually, 50% waste in the private insurance company, rates increasing for consumers at about 35% per year for premiums. That is what the teabaggers want to continue? That is success? 45,000 people dying because in the richest country in the world we can waste trillions on failed wars but let Americans die in their homes without health insurance? Is that how small the republicans have become?

And none of you teabaggers said anything when the CBO also said bush tax cuts for the rich would cost billions and bankrupt the US budget, which was in the black due to democratic management under Clinton. Not a peep. Or when the medicare reform by bush would cost $450 billion and in the end would leave seniors uncovered for drugs? Not a peep.

The republicans have no credibility on budget matters. None. Nixon, Reagan and Bush all took surpluses and destroyed them.

Only democrats have balanced the budget in recent history. Because they tax the rich while the republicans tax the poor and middle classes to give money to the rich. Its that simple.

This is huge victory for decency, for morality and for the democratic party. Obama and Pelosi were able to do the nearly impossible and are heros for following their principles. The republicans look like out of touch losers who care about money and failed wars more than people.

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Best pro-American article I've ever read: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/a/m/americandad/2010/03/an-open-letter-to-conservative.php

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Americans happy healthcare reform has passed. Only took a day for victory for Obama over the just say no republicans to be reflected in the polls. This is now a loser issue for the republicans in the Fall. Just like when bush tried to destroy social security.

Only hours after the president signed health care reform legislation into law on Tuesday, the immediate political benefits for the Democratic Party are already coming into focus. According to a Gallup/USA Today poll conducted the day after health care legislation passed the House of Representatives, 49 percent of the respondents think the passage of reform is a "good thing," compared to the 40 percent who think it is bad. The numbers are a welcome relief for a party and a presidency that had been bleeding popular support over the course of the past six months. Democrats didn't just get a health-care-related boost in the realm of public opinion. The Democratic National Committee reported raising more than $1 million in donations on Tuesday even without making a direct ask. The money is expected to pour in for other campaign committees as well. Responding to the growing GOP effort to get the legislation repealed, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee launched a new fundraising toolbar on its website, pointing out which Republican senatorial candidates are ready to take away what particular benefits of reform.

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I love this new Obama health care poverty plan. I feel lighter and more carefree already! My God given rights as a human being, my constitutional rights and my wallet have all been lifted. I especially love what Rep. Alcee Hastings, Dem. FL, had to say about the plan and the way it was passed "There ain't no rules here, we're trying to accomplish something … all this talk about rules … . When the deal goes down, we make 'em up as we go along." A Representative since 1993 and a Democrat, Hastings was previously a lawyer and judge. He spent ten years as a federal judge (1979–1989), but was impeached and removed from office for corruption and perjury. He was the sixth federal judge to be impeached and removed from office in American history.

With people of this ilk along with Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al. running the USA, I have great confidence in its future. Know any good Mandarin instructors?

By the by, why did the dems put a loophole in the law which exempts Obama, his staff and members of Congress and their staffs from falling under obamacare?

Cheers!

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I envision cavities requiring 15 visits to the dentist and 4 hour ambulance rides terminating in...er...terminating in patients...er...terminating patients in...er...4 hours.

But then there is still Canada's world famous quality health care. And jail besides for anyone who doesn't like it. I know I feel safer now, don't you? Now all we need is a debtor's prison to load all the rebels into, or maybe we just shoot them out behind a bush these days.

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pokesalit,

Obama himself is not exempt. He's going to voluntarily sign up when it starts in 2014.

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I envision cavities requiring 15 visits to the dentist and 4 hour ambulance rides terminating in...er...terminating in patients...er...terminating patients in...er...4 hours.

Right, because all that stuff happens in other countries with public healthcare doesn't it?

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What a great day for the USA. Now they can say that they have joined the civilized world and the 21st century!

Good JOB OBAMA!!!

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Mandatory health insurance was a republican idea to start, of course now they hate it.

"The idea of an individual mandate as an alternative to single-payer was a Republican idea," said health economist Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. In 1991, he published a paper that explained how a mandate could be combined with tax credits — two ideas that are now part of Obama's law. Pauly's paper was well-received — by the George H.W. Bush administration. "It could have been the basis for a bipartisan compromise, but it wasn't," said Pauly. "Because the Democrats were in favor, the Republicans more or less had to be against it."

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A historic slap in the face -

“Nineteen million college students aren’t going to be happy when they find out that the federal government will overcharge them an average of $1,700 to help pay for the new health care law and other government programs. In this latest Washington takeover, the government will borrow money at 2.8 percent and loan it to students at 6.8 percent and spend the difference on more government. Any savings ought to go to students, not the government. “This takeover will deprive 19 million students of choices, add half a trillion dollars to the federal debt, and throw out of work 31,000 Americans who today help students apply for loans. The motto of the Obama Administration should be: ‘If you can find it in the Yellow Pages, the government ought to be doing it.'"
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Mandatory health insurance was a republican idea to start, of course now they hate it.

It's a stupid idea no matter who came up with it. No one is truely free when their government is micro-managing their lives. I can't understand why so many people are enticed by the allure of the nanny-state and are readily willing to give up on making choices about their own lives to the government. Why does the government have to force me to do anything - as long as I do no harm to anyone else? There should at least be an opt out of ObamaCare for those who do not want to be told how to take care of themselves. I thought the Left is pro-choice!

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It is easy to sit back at your computer and attack broad access health care when you have insurance or some other form of protection. But many people in the US don't have that armchair luxury. Not only do they not have the PC, they don't have health care and they would not be able to afford it without this program.

It is easy to talk about choices when you have them. But many people don't and it is about time that they got them.

Plus this fear mongering over micromanaged lives is just BS scare tactics by the right and will evaporate like their support in the general public.

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Congrats to ALL Amercians.

Anyone who argues against covering a countries population for medical services clearly needs to use THOSE SERVICES! The simple fact that cancer can not only kill people but bankrupt their families makes this a no-brainer but the suits in the US have brain washed a large part of the US population into thinking they will turn into commies or something if the whole population gets together & does something good, smart for each other.

Again congrats to all, maybe some day the ole "USA is the greatest" might even come true one day, at least this is a step in that direction!

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