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Struggle over health care reform tilts Obama's way

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Thought I should correct the article...

urging lawmakers on Friday to "Screw America Over, in passing it over the objections of most Americans" in a long-awaited vote this weekend.

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@ Molenir: You so got that right.

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"the insurance industry will continue to run amok" if the vote fails"

Yes, better to have the government continue to run amok.

"We are going to fix health care in America"

Pffft! The Democrats aren't going to fix anything, they're going to make it worse.

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Molinir and other detractors of this bill will quite happily use government-run pension and welfare systems, but a government-run healthcare system?

That must be socialist.

lol! The hypocrisy and complete lack of logic in that is incredible.

That's really the kicker - conservatives have no problem with the government running Medicare/Medicaid and in fact don't raise a peep about doing so. But when it comes to government-run healthcare, well suddenly that's 'socailist.'

The brainwashing of the Right by Rush Limpbough and other extremist Right wing elements is complete.

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"Molenir and other detractors of this bill will quite happily use government-run pension and welfare systems"

Sure, Sushi, just make up stuff and post it, sheesh.

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But you can never refute it. Sarge, do you use government-run financial support programs? Why aren't they 'socialist'?

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The healthcare debate in America has shown the world a few interesting things about conservative Americans:

They don't have a clue what socialism means.

They are far more willing to be led by the nose to the propagand trough by lazy talkshow hosts and Fox 'news' reporters than to investigate facts by themselves.

It's all about me, me, me. Screw the rest of my fellow Americans.

The well off Americans who are already enjoying the benefits of health insurance are most like to be against others getting the same benefits.
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You know I've seen several ads by insurance companies saying how bad this health care plan is. I haven't seen the AMA running ads against it, yet. I haven't seen hospitals selling how bad this plan is.

Insurance companies are the ones who will lose out possibly. Probably they will still make a tidy sum of money, just not the money they are now.

And you know I understand a portion of the republicans jargon. They don't want any of their health care run by the government. I understand. But to help all those who don't have health care, the system has to be put together and that includes everybody. < :-)

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I couldn't help noticing that more than a few of the loudest opponents of this bill on JT are former US milatary - essentially a government-run institution that (in many ranks) strips members of choice, orders them to do things, and pays them according to non-negotiable pay bands.

But the military apparently isn't 'socialist' while government-run healthcare, a system that offers far more choices, somehow is. After a year of debate, conservative arguments against this bill are vaporizing almost as quickly as the credibility of the people who push them.

Reality strikes again. :-)

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Conservatives' worst enemy is their own incredibly weak arguments.

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"But you can never refute it."

I'm refuting your claim that I happily use government-run pension and welfare. Sure, when I turn 65, assuming the U.S. government has any money left at all, I'll start getting some pitiful Social Security payments that won't be anywhere near enough for me to live. I'm sure not depending on that. Of course for years the government took deductions for Social Security out of my paychecks before I even got them, so they owe me at least what I paid into that.

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Sarge, but why isn't the pension system 'socialist'? It's run by the government, just like healthcare will be. Heh, you really have no idea what 'socialist' means, do you? But you still allow yourself to get freaked out by it. :-)

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It's becoming clear that whenever a conservative bandies around the term 'socialist' to criticize this bill, what it really means is 'I really can't be bothered to think."

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Sushi, I give up, "socialist" means whatever you say it means. And Obama Care is going to be great for the United States, as it will provide high-quality health care to all, while cutting the deficit created by the previous administration.

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7 wavering Dems have come out in support of the bill.

Sarge - "Sushi, I give up, "socialist" means whatever you say it means."

That's the attitude. Ignorance of the issues must be pure bliss. :-)

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Opponents of this bill might like to know that long-term healthcare costs of U.S soldiers wounded in Iraq are around $600 billion.

That's nearly 60% of the cost of this bill.

Most of the this bill's opponents supported the Iraq war.

Looks like they screwed up yet again...

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Sarge, do you have any sensible counter argument whatsoever?

Yes or no?

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sushi: After I've let it be known about me, I can't believe you'd use the mil as an example. Do you know how c-section births alone are made unnecessarily each year on military bases?

Look, the mil health care is socialist in a way. So is SSI. That's not the argument, the argument is do you really think the gov, the US gov that is, can take better care of you then a private doc? Do you really think the gov is going to be able to put out a better insurance plan than the private sector?

Can't get insurance for a pre-exising condition?? Well, yes and no. But look at it like this, gov insurance or private insurance, they are playing with numbers. If you have a pre-existing condition and enter a pool of say healthy people, you actually bring those people's costs up. The Japanese gov, and even the Canadian gov do this.

And you think this is going to help the economy while it has hurt, Cali, Mass, Hawaii, with Tenn. being the only exception.

I don't know why you are not more of a proponant on the idea that states must allow insuance companies to sell health care across state lines (this is a state gov issue, not a private company). Also, why no be more in favor of those who have no problems for their care costs to go down - which goes back to allowing those with preexisting conditions into the pool.

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Skip - "Do you know how c-section births alone are made unnecessarily each year on military bases?"

Can you re-write that?

"I don't know why you are not more of a proponant on the idea that states must allow insuance companies to sell health care across state lines."

I never said I didn't, however, I do.

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sushi, why do you need me to rewrite it? I'm just trying to tell you that the gov also has questionable methods in deliverying health care to the military folks. If you were in, you would know going to the clinic with some bad pains, say your knees and watch what you get... Oh, and you can not refute the doc in the military. He as the last word - even if he's wrong and yes, I've witnessed that in the Army and I witnessed that while in the VA... (I really hope this proxy is working because I think I may be in trouble now)

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Skip, sorry, I just re-read it a second time and it makes sense. I thought you had left a word out. :-)

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It's nice to see that people still believe in a good old-fashioned ponzi scheme.

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skipthesong, I just watched a program no less than a week ago about all hospitals are doing too many c-sections. There was one hospital (civilian) that if you ever had a c-section you were required top have a c-section for ever in that hospital. There was a woman whose first child was c-section. Her second was natural birth. They required her to have a c-section because she had one once.

Then the news program that told how c-sections are the most common surgery, done on women, in the United States.

Your complaining about c-sections in military hospitals is nothing more than your rant.

If you leave it up to the states to regulate this and get to the point that they allow the selling/buying of insurance across state lines will never happen. The insurance companies have their locks on states and they aren't going to allow that to happen, governed at the state level. < :-)

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More socialism from a government drowning in debt is pure insanity. We need another miracle to save us from big brother Obama running micro-managing our lives and wallets. People will continue to be denied care, it will just be the government denying your care through rationing. Yeah sure, you can have that operation or CT scan -assuming you live long enough! This is a disaster - Karl Marx lives and is in residence in the White House.

ObamaCare is polarizing the nation. If can only pass through illegimate legislative trickery and pure Chicago-style political thuggery. The Left will be joyous at what they think is the coming utopian communitarian world - it's just a disaster in the making. Socialism does not work and cannot work. Just look at Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid systems. They have promised benefits that they cannot possibly meet. ObamaCare will just make it that much more painful when the reality of these pie-in-the sky programs hits. This victory for the ultra-Left is a defeat for all Americans.

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This is a disaster - Karl Marx lives and is in residence in the White House.

Sounds like Dr. Michael Savage.

ObamaCare is polarizing the nation.

Oh no, that was done last administration.

I love these threats from the republicans screaming that this will sink the democrats in the fall. B/S, you'd be saying that about anything that Obama does or doesn't do. That's one of the republicans mantras.

I can't imagine that all republicans don't want health care. There are republicans also that don't have health care insurance. There are those that have pre-existing conditions. I'm sure there are republicans that have newborns with conditions that insurance companies refuse to cover, also. This would help them. The democrats might lose a few. They might just pick up a few. < :-)

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Most Americans oppose the health legislation because it will still be so expensive that most working class people cannot afford it, and it will also restrict what doctor a person chooses to go to, and restrict what care is given.

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Most Americans oppose the health legislation because it will still be so expensive that most working class people cannot afford it,

If I didn't know better, I'd swear "most" of the comments in here were taken verbatim off FOX news broadcasts.

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Obama's hope and change is "trickle down". That is, he defines the change Americans "need", he muscles his ideology through even though 75 percent of Americans don't want Obamacare and he hands it down to us.

So, in Obama-o-vision, hope and change is not what most Americans collectively want, it's what we collectively receive.

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Romeo, you seem to believe 'most Americans' know what is best for them. After observing runaway national and personal debt, rampant obesity and dependance on pharmaceutical drugs, a nation getting duped into an unwinnable war in Iraq and being told what new bogeyman to fear every other week, I think the world begs to differ.

Right Sushi. We get what you mean. As long as they have a d by their name, they know better, and we should allow them to make decisions for us. If Obama proposes raising taxes by 50% on everyone, and going to war with Iran, I'm sure you'd be ok with it. Because, I mean its Obama saying it. If he says it, it must be ok.

Perhaps I'm overstating things. However from the tone of your posts, and those of aday it really does seem like you've drunk the kool-aid. It doesn't matter what is in the bill, so long as they pass it, it must be for the best, since its done by the O. And of course more government control is always a good thing right! Ah, wait, you're kind of mixed on this aren't you. More government control is good, as long as they're making decisions on what kind of health care you get, what school your kids can go to, who your doctor is. But if they dare to look over your shoulder, then, then its bad. How about some consistency.

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sushisake3:"long-term healthcare costs of U.S soldiers wounded in Iraq are around $600 billion."

Boom!And that's another incredibly unrefutable contribution from you,mate.

it really is just too funny watching the dwindling supporters of scott brown and his evil pickup truck here try and man up and fight Nancy Pelosi and Barack as they ram this legislation down the throats of the increasingly obese American public who obvioously don7t know what is good for them anayways.Its a too funny!Well, anayways, Obama's popularity is off the charts and the 1900 page bill will undoubtedly lower costs and even create a SMALLER government,in some respects.I can't really explain though.I FEEL good about the bill.That is the most important thing.

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Molenir and Romeo, you should both be real glad you don't have to push your case in court - you'd contradict yourself with every 2nd sentence and your actions would contradict your words in a disturbing number of instances. Better stick to JT, eh, then you can say just about anything. :-)

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If it passes, SCOTUS will end up striking down Obamacare as being unconstitutional.

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The largest association of U.S. doctors ... endorsed Obama’s ... legislation.

Heh, of course they do because Obama promised them an increase in funding to doctors and hospitals for medicare patients.

Payola at its worse.

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the biggest senior citizens’ lobby (AARP) endorsed Obama’s ... legislation.

Mayo and other clinics have already stopped accepting Medicare but still accept Medicare Advantage plans. But if Obamacare becomes the Law of the Land, seniors won't have that, either. So they will get no treatment at all.

Obamacare basically tells the elderly they should just go home, take a pill and die because by doing so would save the government some money. That is what democrats are voting for, that is what democrats are demanding and that is what everybody will be getting Obamacare passes.

Heh, on to the next group of suckers!

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Romeo, what doesn't make sense about paying doctors more to see more patients? And are you still receiving your government-run pension and health insurance? You never did give any answers. I'd love to know why this government-run healthcare reform is 'socialist' while your government-run pension and health insurance isn't.

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Romeo '..elderly they should just...take a pill and die...'

No, that's what uninsured seniors will likely be doing if the GOP gets their way. This bill EXPANDS coverage to more people making it easier for more people to get cheaper preventative care today, rather than critical and expensive treatment with no insurance next year, which is what will happen if the GOP's 'Americans Last' strategy succeeds.

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Romeo, if you and other conservatives hadn't lent your support to the misguided war in Iraq, your government could have funded 2 healthcare bills and still had billions left over. But that's the price you pay for bad judgement. Now, can you explain why this bill is 'socialist' but Medicare and Medicaid aren't?

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Now, can you explain why this bill is 'socialist' but Medicare and Medicaid aren't?

Medicare and Medicaid are funded through payroll deductions from a workers paycheck. Just as if a worker puts money into his private account at the bank to fund his retirement. The Government has promised to use the money to pay for his medical care in the twilight years or if a person becomes poor and can't afford insurance, so much for your 'uninsured Americans' not be able to get care, by the way. The Government has done such a good job with both these programs that they are now going broke, can't even meet current obligations and most retirees still keep their private insurance even after they become eligible for Medicare or buy a policy that supplements Medicare. And we aren't even bothering to try to fix that mess that the Government is already in control of already, Medicare and Medicaid.....madness.

As far as your new meme that those of us that receive a pension because we obligated 20 years of our lives in SERVICE to others are somehow hypocritical in opposing this nightmare.

We earned those pensions by full-filling our end of the bargain of our contract to serve. Uncle Sam is only living up to his end of deal. Now if you just want to GIVE people the same benefits I now enjoy without the sacrifice that I had made to earn them that is also madness just like this bill.

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Sail, you are talking about military pensions while the bill covers health insurance. You don't earn the right to get health insurance like you do to get a pension. Why shouldn't the government expand health insurance coverage to more Americans? The alternative is the health of millions of uninsured Americans reaching critical stages and requiring massively expensive ongoing treatment, a recipe for a healthcare budget blowout.

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SushiSake - Your 8:49 am post is beyond a doubt the best I've ever read on JT; no one has ever stated the facts about the Repubs so clearly and so inarguably correctly. Plus, anyone who can make Sarge say "I give up" (his 10:03 am "post") is a gentleman and a scholar in my book!

Hey Sarge, isn't your military retired pay from a "gov't-run program"?

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sailwind -

As far as your new meme that those of us that receive a pension because we obligated 20 years of our lives in SERVICE to others are somehow hypocritical in opposing this nightmare. We earned those pensions by full-filling our end of the bargain of our contract to serve. Uncle Sam is only living up to his end of deal. Now if you just want to GIVE people the same benefits I now enjoy without the sacrifice that I had made to earn them that is also madness just like this bill.

Sacrifice? Boo hoo hoo! I make that same sacrifice each day, hoping to see America improve through things like this very bill; you seem to have made it only to get retired pay and benefits. Sheesh!

I do agree on one thing: at least I have lifetime health care. Hopefully, with the passage of this bill, all Americans will as well. Helping my fellow Americans in this manner is one of the reasons I vote Democratic - I want to truly serve America (through vote and duty) rather than simply take your attitude of "me first".

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The 'me first' attitude is a core reason behind conservative opposition to this bill. They can't seem to get the blinkers off to see that there's other Americans out there besides them who need health insurance. I've noticed most of the conservatives on JT who want to deny health insurance to others already have cushy government-run insurance plans themselves. What's good for the goose clearly isn't good for the gander....

Interestingly, this 'me first' mentality flies in the face of Americans' claims they are a Christian nation.

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SushiSake3 - I agree that the conservatives' "me first" attitude shows their lack of true Christian values, but what really offends me is the attitude of those like sailwind who hide behind their military service to "justify" denying others benefits that all good Americans deserve.

Service is just that - service, both to one's country and its people. It's one of the reasons the USAF includes "Service Before Self" in its core values.

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I'm not military myself, but I rank teachers, nurses and daycare teachers way up there in terms of those who truly "serve" their nation.

It's not just military personnel who should be put on pedestals.

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Couldn't agree more, SushiSake 3.

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USAFdide - "but what really offends me is the attitude of those like sailwind who hide behind their military service to "justify" denying others benefits that all good Americans deserve."

It offends me as well.

I'd actually put nurses at the top of the pile in terms of those who Truly serve their country. These awesome women (& men) bear the brunt of anger, misery and pain every. single. day. of. their. jobs.

Military don't. In fact, when military personnel need their pain medication and care, who're they gonna call?

That's right - a nurse.

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And when nurses, teachers, first responders and others performing critical tasks get laid off due to budget squeezes caused by the global depression that started on the GOP's watch, the GOP and conservatives are sticking it to those same people and saying, "Tough! Sink or swim."

That is so wrong on so many levels, it's incredible.

But at least people like Sailwind, Romeo and Molenir will continue benefiting from government-run pension and health insurance systems that are ...um...socialist..?

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If the GOP/conservatives get their way, and if first responders - the heroes of 9-11 - lose their jobs and subsequently lose their health insurance, they'll be left to fend for themselves.

That's how much the GOP 'cares' about Americans.

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America can indeed call ittself a functioning first world democracy. I would say though that to be a civilised first world nation, the country must have free universal health care for all to try to ensure equality in health terms, even though it is a hard target to reach.

Obama has the right idea, but right wingers used to decades of anti state healtcare propaganda believe the plan is a "socialist plot" of sorts.

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Conservative 'Me First!" principles are a joke, and if nothing else, this healthcare debate has done well to highlight this fact.

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Rep Bart Stupak, who succeeded last November in inserting strict anti-abortion language into the House bill ... angered lawmakers who support abortion rights.

Most democrats figure if they pay for an abortion now, they won't have to support an unwanted human being for the rest of his/her life. A rather ghoulish way of looking at life.

It really comes down to something that is between a woman and her doctor; and if she is a religious person, her confessor. Government should stay out of it including not paying for it

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VICTORY. After a year of the just say no republicans as usual blocking progress in the USA.

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"Conservative "Me First!" principles are a joke"

Conservative principles aren't "Me First," they're "We want to make our own decisions."

Liberal "We know what's best for you" principles are the joke.

"republicans as usual blocking progress"

Republicans control neither the White House nor the Congress right now.

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Romeo, your last post was not related to any recent posts and you have failed to address virtually every question asked of you.

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Republicans control neither the White House nor the Congress right now...

...therefore, the Repubs attempt to prevent American progress through shameless propaganda. Disgusting, at least to us Patriots.

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Republicans and their allies unleashed a fresh barrage of criticism, warning the bill would eviscerate a private Medicare health program that serves 10 million elderly

It's quite comical to watch the Republicans steadfastly defend the Medicare program that they opposed all the way to its creation. Will they pull the same trick with this health care bill in 20 years time?

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Sarge, do you really think most Americans really know what is best? Really? Every major indicator about America has been going in the wrong direction since you elected bush. Without government-run healthcare, America's health system will continue barreling off the cliff leaving even more people uninsured and requiring expensive long-term care than there are now. The GOP led your economy off the cliff and you think they're the ones who know how to make it right? That's like asking an arsonist how to put out the raging fire he started in your house. And why do you think every government intervention is bad? Is it because you nostalgically value all the freedoms that bush - the guy you voted for twice - stripped from you?

Conservative 'Me First!' principles run the risk of ruining America.

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Gombei - Good one.

"the Repubs attempt to prevent American progress through shameless propaganda"

Any criticism of the Democrats' policies is just "shameless propaganda" LOL.

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"Sarge, do you really think most Americans really know what is best?"

Well, of course - they elected Obama and gave the Democrats the majority in Congress!

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Sarge, after the disastrous bush years (that you solidly supported), Americans only had 1 choice and it wasn't 'war hero' John McCain.

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Sushi, after the disastrous bush years, Americans wisely elected Barack Obama, who will lead us out of the depths of chaos and despair.

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Someone mentioned something to me the other day that made me think.

The rebublicans are squaking quite loudly about how this reform is going to be bad for America and how it will destroy the dems in the upcoming elections.

Well, if that was the case, the republicans should be gleeful in the position they are sitting right now. It would only be a matter of short time before the republicans will take back control of the government.

The idea was, republicans are making a fuss not because they think the reform will fail...but because they think it might succeed.

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IPCOT........Only good for one extension if you are lucky and you seem to be on number three by now, amazing.

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conservatives are saying this will spell the end of America, just like they said electing Obama would end America. And just like they said the stimulus package would end America.

So...they're batting 0-2 with their Obama's destroying America shrieks.

One thing we don't need to worry about when this passes is wahmbulance drivers. JT has cornered the market. Unfortunately, they only know how to go right toward the wrong way.

Taka

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"In full campaign mode"

Obama's never stopped campaigning.

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"The legislation... would... cut deficts by an estimated $138 billion over a decade"

Anyone who believes that must be as dumb as a box of rocks. This legislation will balloon the deficit.

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It looks like the House is going to vote, up and down, on this and not just deem it to pass. < :-)

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It looks like the House is going to vote, up and down, on this and not just deem it to pass.

I hope you are right. There has been way too much funny business by both party's going on in Congress over the last couple of years / decades. They need to to doing things out in the open and in a straight forward way and not create new loopholes that undermine the democratic process.

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adaydream says:

I love these threats from the republicans screaming that this will sink the democrats in the fall.

I'm not a Republican. I used to be, but I'm not anymore. Both parties are bankrupting my country. Democrats are just the best at creating huge government programs that require large amounts of taxation and micro-managing the daily lives of American citizens. And yes, Democrats will take huge loses this Fall. On top of the cyclical nature of politics, Democrats are simply on the wrong side of public opinion.

Americans oppose ObamaCare by about 50% to 40%. Only certain ideas in the entire plan is popular - overall it is not popular. The Democrat party is clearly going against the will of the American people. The government is forcing people to become dependent upon government so it can control them. That's just wrong.

If people were allowed to opt out of having to participate in government run health care, social security, and other programs then I would be a little less upset about it. The fact that I am forced to participate through my taxes is ridiculous. What ever happened to freedom?

Here is where my poll numbers are from: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

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For all the conservatives who claimed with 100% certainty that health care reform was dead, isn't it amazing to have a leader of President Obama's caliber?

Raising the dead....hmmm.

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For all the conservatives who claimed with 100% certainty that health care reform was dead, isn't it amazing to have a leader of President Obama's caliber?

Yabits, haven't seen you around in awhile. Glad to have you back. I wouldn't rate this as being Obamas victory. If it passes, which is by no means certain, I would credit Pelosi for it. Obama helped, no question, but I said a long time ago, not to count out Pelosi. She has been very good at twisting arms for a long time. With the huge Dem majority in the House, even with this as unpopular as it is, with her pushing it, I've always thought they had a chance to pass it. I hope for the sake of all Americans they fail, but don't think they will.

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If it passes, which is by no means certain, I would credit Pelosi for it.

Of course, a lot of credit goes to Speaker Pelosi. I firmly believe that this first installment of health care reform will pass. Reform will necessarily continue until all Americans are provided with the means to maintain good health as well as affordable medical treatment when they require it.

Thank you for the welcome back. I don't have nearly as much time to spend on comment-making since my business has taken off.

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Uchingu says:

For all of you Americans living in Japan, why are you not disappointed with your Japanese National healthcare??You are lucky to even have healthcare considering being a "Gaijin". Stop being hypocrite.

Any "gaijin" that volunteers to live in Japan doesn't have much right to be disappointed or to complain about what the government does. If they cannot tolerate the governmental system, they can return home. Foreign residents in Japan have decided that on balance they would like to live in a foreign country (and will by and large not attempt to become a citizen). I doubt the fact that there is socialized medicine has much if anthing to do with the vast majority of foreigners reasons for living in Japan.

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Beelzebub

If I didn't know better, I'd swear "most" of the comments in here were taken verbatim off FOX news broadcasts.

If I didn't know, I'd swear "most" of the comments in here were taken verbatim off MSNBC, NBC and ABC news broadcasts.

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Sarge is spot on - anybody who thinks that this bill is going to cut the deficit while improving health care is very very stupid.

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Important vote just happened. A procedural vote passed 224 - 206 in favor of moving the bill forward.

Looking Good!

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Stock market is up today driven by what, healthcare companies. What does Wall Street know that the regressive losers of the republican party does not?

Hint, healthcare reform is good for America.

It is so easy dealing with the mentally debilitated and now demoralized right.

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