Obama tries to calm Afghan massacre fallout

Very typical. I think it's time for the U.S. troops to leave from Afghanistan. It was obvious from the beginning that the whole mission to get rid of these Taliban fanatics was going to fail in the same way the Soviets failed few years ago. Afghanistan is not Iraq. Of course, i feel sorry for the Afghan people that would have to deal with the Taliban militias, but this whole campaign made things even worse in the rural areas of Afghanistan.

By the way, why do i feel that the whole story was almost ignored by the mainstream media? Just imagine what would have happened if an armed Muslim killed innocent women and children while they were sleeping in any American city. Was it even mentioned in the Japanese TV? Or were they too busy showing AKB48?

"It’s not who we are as a country, and it does not represent our military.”

Sounds awfully a lot like what GWB said when murder and torture was revealed in Iraqi prisons under US control.

Being an uninvited invader is bad enough and I don't think "we're really really sorry" is going to cut it this time. Time to go and go quickly. Can't understand the 2014 deadline for pullout or what is magically expected to be achieved by then. It's not as though the last ten years has been a steady build up to stability, democracy and all the other goodies promised, so the claim to leave now would undo all the good work we have done is not a valid argument.

Perhaps the guy snapped from the rigours of war or his reported brain injury. What ever the reason I think it is only a (short) matter of time before there is another outrage over the behaviour of the invansion troops. This after all, came right on the back of the burning of Korans.

Get out now while the going is bad. As it can only get worse.

Agree with SimondB

The longer US/NATO troops stay in Afghanistan, the more dangerous it will be there. The Talibans are using religion to spurn locals against the foreigners, and teh Afghan government may as well be caught in between keeping good relations with the US and maintaining the peace locally.

This is appalling for sure, but pales in comparison to atrocities committed in Vietnam, or in any other militarily occupied country. Par for the course! That said, occupying forces should return to their own nations. Aggressors are never welcome. Let the citizens deal with their own government.

Obama's pattern: pulling out from Iraq and handed over to Iranian proxy government; and now pulling out from Afghanistan and handed over to Taliban and corrupted Kazai's government. War is a terrible thing, but many lives has been invested, America should gain some ground for future progress in these countries. I guess now, candidate Obama will focus the war in Texas and other states by allowing people to vote without proper photo ID. Responsible citizen should obtain ID for voting, cashing the check, boarding the plane...etc. Why assuming peoples are not smart enough to get an ID, if one want to vote? Kicking the can down the road for Afghanistan, Iran, and $15 trillion deficit are the foot print of Obama's policy.

Being an uninvited invader is bad enough and I don't think "we're really really sorry" is going to cut it this time.

Sept 11th was the formal invite extended by the Taliban to go and visit and stay awhile in Afghanistan. Until that day most Americans couldn't find it the place on the map. You don't want invaders? Don't attack another country and one within the NATO alliance that states attack one member and you have attacked them all. That would have been a good start this whole war from happening.

"Obama's pattern"

Otherwise known as the Will of the People.

I find it fascinating that any contributor to this thread with a post so chock-full of grammatical errors would presume to dictate terms to immigrants, illegal or otherwise, who have done more backbreaking labor in a year to benefit the U.S. economy than most of their critics have in their entire lives.

No foreign country has ever won a war in Afghanistan

Alexander's Macedonians won a war there.

Look - President Obama said he's sorry! What more do the Afghan's want?

Sailwind - when did the Taliban attack the United States? You may be confusing them with al Qaida, but don't worry: that is a common Republican myopia, so you have plenty of company.

Laguna,

After the Sept 11th attacks on the United States the policy approved by Congress for Military action was to not only attack Al Qaida at its source but also the Nation's Government that had harbored them to allow A.Q to attack us in the first place. That was the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan and their A.Q Allies. Myopia does not factor in this at all. The Taliban were declared the enemy along with Al Qaida with the full support of the United States Congress for military action along with NATO declaring for the first time in its histories charter to envoke military action against the same Taliban under the provision that an attack on one member state was an attack against all.

How to minimize the suffering of the Afghans in days to come? Afghanistan has been manipulated by outsiders throughout the history. I guess in the name of "the Will of the People", the Taliban once ruled the country. Deja vu? By the way, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Putin, Assad, N.Korean ruling family always hide behind "the Will of the People"!

Sept 11th was the formal invite extended by the Taliban to go and visit and stay awhile in Afghanistan.

Sailwind, I find "go and visit and stay awhile" an interesting way to describe an invasion. It sounds like something right out of the Propaganda Department. And secondly, yes Al-Qaeda are a'holes who attacked the United States but to lay the blame for those attacks at the feet of the whole COUNTRY of Afghanistan is wrong. There is even debate over whether Omar (head of the Taliban) knew if such attacks were going to take place beforehand. Don't get me wrong. I think anyone who throws acid in a woman's face (i.e. Taliban AND The Northern Alliance - remember them?) is scum.

Sailwind, I find "go and visit and stay awhile" an interesting way to describe an invasion. It sounds like something right out of the Propaganda Department.

It's called irony. The last place any American would ever want to visit is Afghanistan prior to the war or after. If your going to invade a place it should be at least a place your forces really want to go and visit and stay awhile like Singapore (foods great and they speak english) not some third world medieval hellhole.

but to lay the blame for those attacks at the feet of the whole COUNTRY of Afghanistan is wrong.

You have to fight them where they are at and not where they ain't, basic Military doctrine.

"You have to fight them where they are at and not where they ain't, basic Military doctrine."

So when do we invade Pakistan?

This person's actions are appaling whatever happened to his head.

But it is still a pimple on the ass to what Afghans have done to Afghans since the invasion.

When they learn to behave like civilized human biengs I'd perhaps have sympathy for their plight in general.

Obama's wrong on the leaving timetable though, NATO should withdraw immediately. Nothing will get better between then and now.

Madverts

This person's actions are appaling whatever happened to his head.

Indeed the guys actions are truly appalling no matter what the cause. But to lay the blame purely at the feet of the soldier is a cope out. One needs to remember who sent him there, who trained him, who armed him and who ultimately is responsible for his health and well being. There would have been signs prior to this that something was wrong with him and those where obviously missed, in the end the military (of whatever country) has a duty of care to ensure the well being of its people physically and mentally.

But it is still a pimple on the ass to what Afghans have done to Afghans since the invasion.

Afghans have been fighting each other long before the US became involved there. And yes what they do to each other can be terrible however is it any worse than what this guy did. The US claims its there to improve the situation and yet here you have a guy going nuts and killing innocent civilians. You need to remember Afghanistan has been at war in one way or another now for decades and sadly the people really dont know any better. Having foreign troops there only increases the problems and gives them a target to take their aggression out on.

When they learn to behave like civilized human biengs I'd perhaps have sympathy for their plight in general.

Ah but your US troops are so much more civilised right? Going around shooting civilians on more than one occasion, peeing on dead bodies, torturing people, beating and torturing reporters for reporting on crimes committed by US troops. And the list goes on, but as you say its only the Afghans that are uncivilized right? The US is the world role model for civilized behaviour..... PLEASE!

Obama's wrong on the leaving timetable though, NATO should withdraw immediately. Nothing will get better between then and now.

Agreed, all these foreign troops are doing is causing more and more friction. Get them out and let the Afghans sort it out for themselves. Stop trying to impose your morals and ways on them they obviously dont want it.

"One needs to remember who sent him there, who trained him, who armed him and who ultimately is responsible for his health and well being."

He was not trained and arm to go on a crazed rampage.

"There would have been signs prior to this that something was wrong with him and those where obviously missed, in the end the military (of whatever country) has a duty of care to ensure the well being of its people physically and mentally."

There's a hell of a lot of people out there in that pit of despair that doubles as war zone. 3 tours in another pleasur zone, Iraq prior to this posting. No wonder he's round the bend.

Yeah, I agree somebody screwed up. But the responsibility for this man's actions lie in his trigger finger.

I'll say the same for you as I would the taliban - when you put as much energy into critisizing them for killing their own as you do when you jump on the anti-US bandwagon then you'll seem credible.

Madverts

"One needs to remember who sent him there, who trained him, who armed him and who ultimately is responsible for his health and well being." He was not trained and arm to go on a crazed rampage.

No he is not trained or armed to go on a crazed rampage but he is trained to kill people and he is armed to kill people and he obviously had some serious mental issues that should have been picked up on. The fact is his welfare is the responsibility of the military and they failed him by not only arming him but also placing him in the situation he was in and whereby he flipped out and killed the people. Yes he is ultimately responsible and nothing can take that away but the military establishment also needs to shoulder some of the blame.

There's a hell of a lot of people out there in that pit of despair that doubles as war zone. 3 tours in another pleasur zone, Iraq prior to this posting. No wonder he's round the bend. Yeah, I agree somebody screwed up. But the responsibility for this man's actions lie in his trigger finger.

I agree with you there are to many people being adversely affected by these wars and they obviously are not getting the support they need or deserve and to just keep letting them go back for tour after tour is a disaster waiting to happen. And in this case the disaster is not just confined to the Afghans he killed but their families and his family. They are all victims.

I'll say the same for you as I would the taliban - when you put as much energy into critisizing them for killing their own as you do when you jump on the anti-US bandwagon then you'll seem credible.

Hey l do criticize the Taliban, l also critisize Karzi's goons for their actions. But the Taliban are not the ones that go around saying they are their to make the Afghans live better and they are the moral crusaders there to save the Afghans from their terrible life all the while allowing these sort of things to happen in their name. You need to remember the Taliban is fighting a guerilla war against what it see's as an invader and their methods (while unacceptable) are different to the coalition forces. And when the coalition forces lower themselves to the standards of the Taliban (killing civilians) then they are really no better.

"and he obviously had some serious mental issues that should have been picked up on."

The same can be said for any serial killer.

" But the Taliban are not the ones that go around saying they are their to make the Afghans live better and they are the moral crusaders there to save the Afghans from their terrible life"

Agreed, the taliban go around cutting off the heads of any living creature that doesn't bend to its' insane version of Islam. I prefer the American version.

"all the while allowing these sort of things to happen in their name."

The actions of this man are not in their name. They are in his.

"You need to remember the Taliban is fighting a guerilla war against what it see's as an invader"

I seem to remember prior to the invasion that not one member of the ruling Taliban was an Afghan.

Invaders?

Madverts

"and he obviously had some serious mental issues that should have been picked up on." The same can be said for any serial killer.

Yes but how many serial killers are given a gun and training how to use it then sent to a war zone. You can argue as much as you want but as a soldier in the US military it was the US militaries obligation to ensure he was mentally fit. But given the US militaries track record well not holding my breathe.

"all the while allowing these sort of things to happen in their name." The actions of this man are not in their name. They are in his.

Oh sorry did l miss the bit where he was a private citizen who just decided to go to Afghanistan by himself. No thats right he is a member of the US military in Afghanistan representing the US military and the US. Or did you forget that bit. Afterall thats what the big flag patch the soldiers wear is all about.

"You need to remember the Taliban is fighting a guerilla war against what it see's as an invader" I seem to remember prior to the invasion that not one member of the ruling Taliban was an Afghan. Invaders?

Really considering the founder of the Taliban Mullah Omar was born in Afghanistan, Qari Ahmadullah (first interior minister) was born in Afghanistan, Abdul Razak (Commerce minister) you guessed it born in Afghanistan, Obaidullah Akhund (defence minister) and again born in Afghanistan. So you claim NOT ONE member was an Afghan, here are 4 that l found in a couple of minutes and surprise surprise they are all afghani's. Sorry but you are wrong on your comment there

Send a guy on four tours of duty into a war zone and what do you expect. Individual WWII ground troops in Europe didn't spend nearly as much time under enemy fire. The average time U.S. personnel served overseas during WWII (16 months). http://askville.amazon.com/American-soldiers-involved-World-War-II/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=1425000 TIme to bring all our troops home...

" it was the US militaries obligation to ensure he was mentally fit. "

After three tours in Iraq and one in this hole I make no illusions about the mentral health of this man, or thousands like him. War's hell.

"So you claim NOT ONE member was an Afghan, "

I said I seem to remember. I think I'm possibly getting mixed up with something I read in the Kite Runner, but even so, you get my point.

If you could look past your own well-documented obession with the US military you'd actually see that other than that, I'm agreeing with you.

I know that some people will want to come here and make a case around anecdotal evidence, but we all know that deep down they don't really believe what they are saying. In the end all we can do is try to forgive them.

No foreign country has ever won a war in Afghanistan

This is always trotted out as if to say that in every battle since the Brits invaded their "country" the Afghans, wholly dependent on foreign weaponry since they encountered the mondern West, are unbeatable. its basically the silly old Lefty trope of the Noble Savage, dressed up and sent blundering into arguments about the War on Terror, when in fact the locals in Afghanistan merely switch sides whenever it is convenient to do, constantly realigning with each other. "we have never lost!"

zichi:

" No foreign country has ever won a war in Afghanistan. Both the Brits and Russians were defeated. "

The muslim invaders in the 10 century did. Check what happened to the original Hindu and Buddhist inhabitants. (Note that "Hindukush" means "Graveyard of the Hindus".

But of course it is correct that no invader with modern ideas of fairness and benevolence has a chance to win a war there.

Zen student:

" Al-Qaeda are a'holes who attacked the United States but to lay the blame for those attacks at the feet of the whole COUNTRY of Afghanistan is wrong. "

...and nobody ever did that. Have you forgotten how the whole mess started? GWB quite sensibly supported the Northern Alliance (which was still regnized by the UN as the legitmate government of Afghanistan) against the Al Quaeda gang which had taken over Kabul and most of Afghanistan. And they were successful in ousting them, with minimal effort.

But then, they could not leave well enough alone, and the whole typical mission creep began, with the idiotic idea of creating a modern, democratic, pro-Western country there. That, of course, was doomed from the start. But Obama and his pals bought into that stupid idea hook, line, and sinker.

zichi:

Stating a fact is not "hate". Zen student made the claim that Afghanistan had never been conquered. I simply corrected that. It is reality. Deal with it.

Another apology that will fall on deaf ears. Give up on these bass ackwards Islamic countries, just go on pure defense back home and assist in offense when needed. I do feel sorry for the innocent afghanis that won't be able to live in peace thanks to extremists but short of annihilating an entire country nobody has the means or time to sort out the good from the bad in these kinds of areas. Can't read peoples minds.

If you are talking about the history of war in Afghanistan, its a bit silly to go past 1709.

Anyway, after a period of peace, America turned Afghanistan into a war zone, unnecessarily going after the Taliban. The people were supposed to be grateful.

Predator drones have been used to kill innocent Afghans. The people were supposed to forgive and forget.

Terry Jones burned Korans, probably the greatest sin according to backward Afghans, like it or not. The people were supposed to forgive.

U.S. soldiers raped a 14 year old girl and murdered her and her whole family to cover it up.

Blackwater changed its name. The people were not supposed to realize that.

Marines went nuts during the Shinwar shooting, shooting teenage girls working in fields. The peopel were supposed to be understanding.

U.S. military occupiers burned Korans, somehow expecting us all to believe it was an accident. The people were supposed to overlook it.

Now a U.S. soldier goes house to house blowing people away. The people are supposed to look on the bright side.

You can say the Taliban has done worse, and they have. Doesn't matter does it? Its their country. If the Taliban occupied America, no matter how bad things were before the fact, they would not be forgiven for making America a war zone for ten years. Every piece of collateral damage would have ten times its ordinary value. Every intentional killing of civilians would have 100 times its value. Every wikileak revealing the covered up murders of civilians by special ops would have 1000 times its value. If they "accidentally" burned the original copy of the Constitution and demolished the Washington Monument for safety reasons, there would be bloody protests. But some people just completely refuse to walk a mile in Afghan shoes, so they expect all this to be forgiven, forgotten, overlooked and even get a "thank you!" Its really hard to understand why Americans are hated in the world, isn't it?

@Seavey, are you mistaking Afghani's for christians? "Supposed to forgive"???? To forgive means that someone is willing to put themselves above revenge and vengeance which the taliban and some extremist citizens are not going to be willing to do. There are many Afghani people that have decent hearts and only put the blame on the perpatrators and NOT THE ENTIRE NATION or organization that the perpatrator is from, but as we can see there are also others that aren't (the same kinds of people that instigate riots and other problems of its ilk). Just like I can't say all muslims are extremists or all Afghanis are muslim... same goes vice versa.

Heard on the news recently that the man will most likely face the death penalty due to the heinousness of the crime. If only the Afghan government would charge their turncoats this way... but then again many of them will see it as martyrdom...

Cut the losses and run, and also stop sending them $$$. All that will be left are the non-profit organizations until they get sick and tired of the BS and leave too.

@Seavey, are you mistaking Afghani's for christians? "Supposed to forgive"????

So if war supporters don't expect the Afghani's to forgive the blunders and atrocities of the U.S. and other NATO forces, then what do they expect? A calm rational analysis in a war zone? If so, its just one more stellar reason why the U.S. never should have led the charge to try and topple the Taliban.

There are many Afghani people that have decent hearts and only put the blame on the perpatrators and NOT THE ENTIRE NATION or organization that the perpatrator is from

Its not so much decent hearts but forgetful minds that forgot this was made possible by a foolish and unnecessary attempt to topple the Talban. There are not enough in Afghanistan so forgetful, and many could have told you that before the invasion even began.

If only the Afghan government would charge their turncoats this way.

What turncoats? Either side is still Afghans in Afghani groups. The only ones that come close to the label of turncoats would be those supporting the occupying forces. But like I said about war supporters being unwilling to walk a mile in Afghani shoes. That is at the root of your misuse of the term turncoat.

I'm with Seavey. We should have let the Taliban stay in power and massacre Afghans on a daily basis because we care about Afghans when they die.

SuperLib

I'm with Seavey. We should have let the Taliban stay in power and massacre Afghans on a daily basis because we care about Afghans when they die.

YAWN, typical sarcasm from Superlib. Cant stand anyone pointing out the flaws with his US of A. If you are so worried about governments killing their own people l dont see you invading Syria, Somalia, Uganda to name but a few.

Zzzzzzz...Typical Cletus hyperbole. Where, and I mean anywhere, does it seem like SuperLib 'can't stand anyone pointing out the flaws with his US of A? As far as I can see the man makes plenty of criticism of the US. The US did go into Somalia, by the way, and they were very involved in Libya as well in case you did not notice. The US should get the heck out of the country. The Afghans have been given plenty of chances to take back their country and they have thrown them all away. It is rather amusing that you seem to be suggesting the US gets too involved on one hand and on the other attempt to suggest they don't get involved enough in other countries' businesses. Maybe you should get that straightened out in your head before you pull out the ad hominem stops, huh?

I'm with Seavey. We should have let the Taliban stay in power and massacre Afghans on a daily basis because we care about Afghans when they die.

Stop trying to rationalise this disgusting act committed by an American solider.

Ben Jack

Zzzzzzz...Typical Cletus hyperbole. Where, and I mean anywhere, does it seem like SuperLib 'can't stand anyone pointing out the flaws with his US of A? As far as I can see the man makes plenty of criticism of the US.

All you need do is read his posts and his buddy Madverts to see that anyone who critisises the US instantly earns the wrath of these two. And his comment was dripping with his usual sarcasm.

The Afghans have been given plenty of chances to take back their country and they have thrown them all away.

Ben you seem to forget the US didnt initially go into Afghanistan for the Afghans they went their for their own reasons nothing at all to do with the welfare of the people so please dont give me that line.

It is rather amusing that you seem to be suggesting the US gets too involved on one hand and on the other attempt to suggest they don't get involved enough in other countries' businesses. Maybe you should get that straightened out in your head before you pull out the ad hominem stops, huh?

Actually no l am suggesting that rather than being the worlds moral compass and trying to set their will in other nations maybe they should get their noses out of others business. And in the case of Afghanistan they seem to be doing more harm than good not only to the Afghans but also to themselves and as such it is time to leave. My comment about the other nations was a pot shot at someone elses snide comment. I think the US and others (this isnt just the US that is involved) should look at there own issues rather than imposing their views on others by using military force.

I've read both their post histories and it seems you need to as well. It is not criticism of the US that earns wrath. It is mindless supplication of anything that seems to opposed the US no matter how odorous the opposition might be. Case in point, the Taliban.

Ben you seem to forget the US didnt initially go into Afghanistan for the Afghans they went their for their own reasons nothing at all to do with the welfare of the people so please dont give me that line.

I have not forgotten anything. It does not change the fact that this has been a wasted 10 year chance for them and that is long enough.

Actually no l am suggesting that rather than being the worlds moral compass and trying to set their will in other nations maybe they should get their noses out of others business.

Umm...the US did not go into Afghanistan alone. Your supposed home country is there as well, as are many others.

My comment about the other nations was a pot shot

Correction: It was a factually lacking pot-shot.

(this isnt just the US that is involved)

Gee, you noticed. How come you only manage to mention the US most of the time? Cat got your tongue? How come you don't manage to notice the Taliban were brutal rulers? That never seems to fit into your calculations.

Readers, please do not bicker. Focus your comments on the topic, not at each other.

Ben Jack

I have not forgotten anything. It does not change the fact that this has been a wasted 10 year chance for them and that is long enough.

Ah so in this 10 years of war and killing you expect them to change decades of history. The Afghan people have been involved in war for many many decades long before NATO and the US arrived. And you expect them to change just because the west arrived to save them. That is a touch naive isnt it?

Umm...the US did not go into Afghanistan alone. Your supposed home country is there as well, as are many others.

I dont know what you mean by "supposed home country" but yes my home country is there as well. And l also would like them to get out of there. While l completely support the troops there l do wish that they werent there but that is the politicians not the military doing that. But just out of curiosity how many times has my countries troops made the news for going on murder spree's, disrespecting dead by urinating on them, etc etc? I guess thats the difference isnt it.

Gee, you noticed. How come you only manage to mention the US most of the time? Cat got your tongue?

Well lets see, l will ask again. When was the last time any of the other nations there had people go one murder spree's or do any of the other things that have been reported in the past couple of months. Look at the actions of US troops in Afghanistan and in Iraq. How many have committed killings? Now compare that to other nationalities, if other nationalities behaved like the US troops then they would cope the same critisism.

How come you don't manage to notice the Taliban were brutal rulers? That never seems to fit into your calculations.

I agree Ben they were brutal rulers. But just because you and l dont like them does that mean we can invade and conduct 10 years of war to get rid of them? There are plenty of brutal rulers around the world, some of them are aided by the US and l dont hear you screaming about them. It seems you are trying to justify actions by saying the Taliban are worse so that makes it alright. Sorry Ben doesnt work like that.

Stop trying to rationalise this disgusting act committed by an American solider.

Could you do me a really big favor and point out even one post the rationalizes this horrible act of violence? In all the hyperbole, I must have missed it.

Could you do me a really big favor and point out even one post the rationalizes this horrible act of violence? In all the hyperbole, I must have missed it.

Read the post again. Pointing that the Taliban themselves engage in this kind of disgusting behaviour even more regularly is a classic deflecting tactic. People are responsible for what they themselves do, the whole like 'the Taliban treats the Afghanis worse!' argument tries is a desperate attempt at rationalisation and deflection.

Ah so in this 10 years of war and killing you expect them to change decades of history.

The Taliban were not around for 'decades'. However, yes, I had hoped they would at least give it a try. They certainly can't say they were not given help toward that end. Were that the Kurds in northern Iraq given as much in the early 90s.

Now compare that to other nationalities, if other nationalities behaved like the US troops then they would cope the same critisism

Other countries have also had incidents in Afghanistan. The numbers of US troops is much larger. It follows so would the number of problem soldiers. This man was a nut. It has nothing to do with what country he came from. German soldiers were posing with skulls a few years back. Were you up in arms? You probably did not even know about it.

I agree Ben they were brutal rulers.

Good job. I am proud of you.

But just because you and l dont like them does that mean we can invade

Oops, spoke too soon I guess. New to the world? People have been invading countries they don't like pretty much since there were countries.

conduct 10 years of war to get rid of them?

I agree they should get out. The Afghans should now be left to their own devices, as long as they do not attack outside their country.

There are plenty of brutal rulers around the world, some of them are aided by the US and l dont hear you screaming about them.

And, I should be screaming about them in a discussion about an article specifically about Afghanistan because?...Let me guess, you don't really know either, right?

It seems you are trying to justify actions by saying the Taliban are worse so that makes it alright.

Not one person, including me, has justified this horrible crime. I am merely saying this one crazy person's actions do not have anything to do with the international efforts in Afghanistan, nor do they speak specifically to US military actions. Those are a completely different discussion.

Read the post again.

I read it. Not one person is rationalizing this crazy person's violent acts. However, many are equating them with US actions overall. To that, some are pointing out that compared to the US, the Taliban are worse. Maybe if more people would actual focus on the fact that this horrible act was not commited by 'the US', but was commited by a crazy person, then people would not feel the need to bring up that the US is not nearly as bad as the Taliban.

Ben Jack

The Taliban were not around for 'decades'. However, yes, I had hoped they would at least give it a try. They certainly can't say they were not given help toward that end. Were that the Kurds in northern Iraq given as much in the early 90s.

Ben l wasnt refering to the Taliban. I was refering to the fact that there has been war in Afghanistan for decades. You seem to have Taliban on the brain there buddy.

Other countries have also had incidents in Afghanistan. The numbers of US troops is much larger. It follows so would the number of problem soldiers. This man was a nut. It has nothing to do with what country he came from. German soldiers were posing with skulls a few years back. Were you up in arms? You probably did not even know about it.

Yes l am aware of a few isolated incidents involving other nations, the Germans, and Poles to name a couple however they are noting like the amount and types the US have had. But to say this man is a nut is wrong, he is sick yes and should have had the help he obviously needed. And as l said yesterday while he pulled the trigger the organisation that put him in the situation he was in and didnt support him is equally to blame.

Good job. I am proud of you.

Ah sarcasm the lowest form of wit.

Oops, spoke too soon I guess. New to the world? People have been invading countries they don't like pretty much since there were countries.

Yes and the US seems to be leading the procession these days now doesnt it????

I agree they should get out. The Afghans should now be left to their own devices, as long as they do not attack outside their country.

Hey Ben can you name one single country that Afghanistan attacked before the US invasion. Please name one, just one???

I am merely saying this one crazy person's actions do not have anything to do with the international efforts in Afghanistan, nor do they speak specifically to US military actions. Those are a completely different discussion.

Actually this mans actions have everything to do with the US militaries actions. I guess you just cant see or understand it. The US military placed its people in high risk high stress environments (this was his 4th tour of a war zone). Where is the support, the mental assessments etc to ensure he can cope. So yes the US military is partly to blame they failed the Afghans he killed, they failed him, and they failed his family. That is unless you believe that the militaries only responsibility is to train, arm and deploy the people and then the rest is up to them....

What about the fallout from the over 1,700 U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan?

Alexander's Macedonians won a war there.

Americans have never won any war on their own and never will. In on the ground operation Americans cannot win against any army. They can have some success if they attack with bombs from the air. In direct combat they do not have any advantage.I wonder why there is not any serious antiwar movement in the USA. Their men are being killed on a daily basis without any meaning...

Lovenot:

" Americans have never won any war on their own and never will. In on the ground operation Americans cannot win against any army. "

Are you saying that the Americans in Afghanistan are in a war against an army??? Can you describe that army for us then, including the country it represents, its size, command structure, uniform, and all that?

Thank you.

I read it. Not one person is rationalizing this crazy person's violent acts. However, many are equating them with US actions overall. To that, some are pointing out that compared to the US, the Taliban are worse. Maybe if more people would actual focus on the fact that this horrible act was not commited by 'the US', but was commited by a crazy person, then people would not feel the need to bring up that the US is not nearly as bad as the Taliban.

But I didn't say the US was 'nearly as bad as the Taliban'. And I don't remember anyone saying the US was worse than the Taliban either. The post I responded was trying to deflect from the atrocity the American sociopath committed by bringing up the Taliban's own crimes and brutality. And sorry, this soldier was a part of the US army, and as a soldier is supposed to represent said army, no, his crimes don't mean every US soldier is also a murderer, but he brought the US army into disrepute by doing what he did. And now they've flown him back to America, instead of having him face the consequences in the country he committed the crimes, which looks even worse.

And sorry, more rationalising. Germans posing with skulls is disgusting but still doesn't compare anywhere near to the barbaric heinousness of what this murderer did.

Are you saying that the Americans in Afghanistan are in a war against an army?

Actually I am wondering what the American army is doing in Afghanistan if they have no other army against them? They are fighting against the people of Afganistan?

I was generally speaking about Americas experiences in any kind of war, and any kind of enemy. Especially weak in ground combat. It is very different to fight on the ground with an enemy like in Vietnam, and to drop "bravely" bombs over the "enemy" safely from the air as they did to Serbia. It is even more deplorable that they cannot win the war in Afghanistan when they have no well organized army against themselves. They are losing their men to enemy attacks, self inflicted injuries and mental illness.

WilliB

" Americans have never won any war on their own and never will. In on the ground operation Americans cannot win against any army. " Are you saying that the Americans in Afghanistan are in a war against an army??? Can you describe that army for us then, including the country it represents, its size, command structure, uniform, and all that?

See thats the point WilliB the US may beat conventional military forces in any war. The 2 Gulf wars are an example. But as soon as the opposing side turns away from conventional warfare and turns to guerilla tactics the US loses every time. And Afghanistan was never a conventional war which is why the US and allies have become so bogged down, even senior past and present US military figures agree with that.

Cletus,

I have the Taliban on my brain, as you put it, because that is the current issue we are discussion. Right now, the choices for the people of Afghanistan is the Taliban or finally accepting outside help and getting rid of the Taliban. They seem to have chosen the Taliban and I say let them have them. In your leap to refer to my Taliban on the brain you ignored my response to you about the fact that, yes, I had hope the citizens of Afghanistan would use the help they had been given to make their country better.

Yes l am aware of a few isolated incidents involving other nations, the Germans, and Poles to name a couple however they are noting like the amount and types the US have had.

Sigh. I touched on this already. The amount of soldiers from the US is nothing like the amount of other countries. Why do you insist on ignoring this.

the lowest form of wit.

Nah, that would be joking about getting someone's name removed and then wondering why their name is changed. Funnily enough, it did not and does not stop you from losing your arguments.

Yes and the US seems to be leading the procession these days now doesnt it????

Again, your supposed country and others agreed with the action. They agreed there was a problem that needed to be solved with regard to the the Taliban. That, uselessly it seems, evolved into nation-building. However, to have nation-building, you have to have citizens that want a nation and are willing to work and fight for it themselves.

Hey Ben can you name one single country that Afghanistan attacked before the US invasion.

Why are limiting the danger to the past? We are talking about now, right? They attack Pakistan almost constantly now. Now, is where the concern is, now and the future. However, the Taliban harbored and supported al-Qaeda and that is why they were attacked.

Actually this mans actions have everything to do with the US militaries actions. I guess you just cant see or understand it.

Yes, you are right...I can't see it or understand it as a justification for murder. Sorry. Saying he was under stress as an excuse is unacceptable to me. You are free to think it is an acceptable excuse if you want to. I refuse to play along.

That is unless you believe that the militaries only responsibility is to train, arm and deploy the people and then the rest is up to them....

If there was some way of preventing this or detecting a problem and it was ignored, that is a problem. However, it does not change the overall efforts of the international community to try and make Afghanistan a better place. One person, no matter how nuts or crazy cannot erase that. Just as one bad teacher or one bad police officer cannot erase the good intentions and efforts of all the others.

The post I responded was trying to deflect from the atrocity the American sociopath committed by bringing up the Taliban's own crimes and brutality.

That post was doing no such thing. It seems to have been in response to someone attempting to equate this nuts actions with overall US actions. Again, not one person is saying what this person did is excusable or acceptable. Not one. To suggest otherwise is hyperbole.

But to say this man is a nut is wrong, he is sick yes and should have had the help he obviously needed.

Six or half dozen, it is still the same thing.

why the US and allies have become so bogged down,

The reason the US and its allies are bogged down is that the people of Afghanistan seem to have chosen the Taliban. I say let them have them and all foreign troops get out. Later, if the citizens of Afghanistan change their minds about the Taliban, they can get rid of them themselves.

That post was doing no such thing. It seems to have been in response to someone attempting to equate this nuts actions with overall US actions. Again, not one person is saying what this person did is excusable or acceptable. Not one. To suggest otherwise is hyperbole.

Actually it did try to deflect. Of course people won't directly try and exuse this soldier, because they know it makes them look insane, so instead they'll try and rationalise and deflect by bringing in the Taliban.

Ben Jack

I have the Taliban on my brain, as you put it, because that is the current issue we are discussion. Right now, the choices for the people of Afghanistan is the Taliban or finally accepting outside help and getting rid of the Taliban. They seem to have chosen the Taliban and I say let them have them. In your leap to refer to my Taliban on the brain you ignored my response to you about the fact that, yes, I had hope the citizens of Afghanistan would use the help they had been given to make their country better.

Actually no what we are currently discussing is the actions of a US military person who went on a rampage and killed many innocent people. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Taliban at all.

Sigh. I touched on this already. The amount of soldiers from the US is nothing like the amount of other countries. Why do you insist on ignoring this.

Oh l dont ignore the numbers at all. What l am pointing out is that there have been numerous incidents involving the US military in Afghanistan and before that in Iraq. Why is it some nations militaries can be in the same areas performing the same tasks taking the same risks and suffering the same hardships yet they do not have people losing the plot and killing civilians, or performing other disgraceful acts? Irrespective of numbers some forces are able to perform professionally while the US acts like a bunch of hooligans.

Nah, that would be joking about getting someone's name removed and then wondering why their name is changed. Funnily enough, it did not and does not stop you from losing your arguments.

Ah what are you talking about. How exactly did l get your name removed? Maybe you could explain that one to me as l am a bit lost on this one. I merely commented on the fact that you are now posting under a different name.

Again, your supposed country and others agreed with the action. They agreed there was a problem that needed to be solved with regard to the the Taliban. That, uselessly it seems, evolved into nation-building. However, to have nation-building, you have to have citizens that want a nation and are willing to work and fight for it themselves.

Um you keep saying my supposed country, care to explain that one. And yes my country did initially agree with the action to hunt those responsible for 9/11 and this then evolved into overthrowing the Taliban which then led to helping rebuild the nation and it was around this point that our action lost support and the call for our troops to come home began. The last thing we wanted was to get tied up in another US disaster.

"Hey Ben can you name one single country that Afghanistan attacked before the US invasion." Why are limiting the danger to the past? We are talking about now, right? They attack Pakistan almost constantly now. Now, is where the concern is, now and the future. However, the Taliban harbored and supported al-Qaeda and that is why they were attacked.

ah how we change tact... You stated "as long as they do not attack outside their country." I merely asked before the US invasion what countries had the Taliban attacked? None is the correct answer there Benny.... Only since the invasion and Pakistan being used as a supply route has the Taliban started attacking in Pakistan.

Yes, you are right...I can't see it or understand it as a justification for murder. Sorry. Saying he was under stress as an excuse is unacceptable to me. You are free to think it is an acceptable excuse if you want to. I refuse to play along.

So the fact that despite serving 4 tours in war zones, and all the stress and horrors that entails then you believe the US military has no responsibility to ensure the mental wellbeing of its personal. Well l am that shocked l actually dont know what to say. I guess you subscribe to the use them and throw them away philosophy then? Hmmm unbelievable....

If there was some way of preventing this or detecting a problem and it was ignored, that is a problem. However, it does not change the overall efforts of the international community to try and make Afghanistan a better place. One person, no matter how nuts or crazy cannot erase that. Just as one bad teacher or one bad police officer cannot erase the good intentions and efforts of all the others.

Ben, there is ways of preventing or detecting these types of issues. Its called looking after your troops welfare and well being. Actually there is a documentary that sums your attitude up perfectly its call "to hell and back again" l suggest you watch it. It follows the story of a soldier wounded in Afghanistan, one comment he makes made me laugh. When asked why he joined the army he said he wanted to kill people, now in my country if you tried to join the military and when asked why you wanted to join if you said that you would be shown the door and told not to come back. I guess thats the difference between your country and mine.

Actually it did try to deflect.

Again, it did not. It was clearly in response to a post blaming the US mission and all of the US military.

People will try lots of the things you wrote, I just don't see that being done in the post you chose to respond to based on what that person was responding to themselves. If the poster in question had just written, 'Heh, that's nothing compared to what the Taliban have done' independently from any other post, you would have a very good point. However, they did not and you do not.

To be clear, any justifications for this soldiers actions are repulsive as there is no justification for them.

People will try lots of the things you wrote, I just don't see that being done in the post you chose to respond to based on what that person was responding to themselves. If the poster in question had just written, 'Heh, that's nothing compared to what the Taliban have done' independently from any other post, you would have a very good point. However, they did not and you do not.

Actually it did that by trying to infer American moral superiority in the 'we care about Afghans when they die' line, rationalising this man's killing spree by hinting that the Afghan people fare better overall under the Americans than they did the Taliban, implying that the occasional actions of psychopaths like this are a necessary sacrifice for that better level of safety. Textbook rationalisation.

Actually no what we are currently discussing is the actions of a US military person

Is that what you have been discussing? It seems that you have been discussing how bad the US is.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Taliban at all.

Funny. The writer of this article disagrees with you, did you read it? By the way, according to the article, the Taliban disagree with you, too.

Oh l dont ignore the numbers at all.

Funny you write this and then proceed to again ignore the difference in numbers.

Maybe you could explain that one to me as l am a bit lost on this one.

Sure, you asked them in a post in a discussion you were doing badly in why moderators had not asked me to change it and suggesting they should. Pretty low attempt to win an argument. Kind of like your attempts to bring it up again now.

The last thing we wanted was to get tied up in another US disaster.

Your supposed country willingly participated. It is now as popular in your supposed country as it is in the US. ie: Not very.

ah how we change tact

Not at all. My comment was talking about the future, not the past. I am not expecting any more attacks from the past. I am in the future.

So the fact that despite serving 4 tours in war zones, and all the stress and horrors that entails then you believe the US military has no responsibility to ensure the mental wellbeing of its personal.

Never wrote that, did I. I just don't consider it an excuse to murder. There are lots of people all over the world dealing with unimaginable stress and horrors and they don't pick up a weapon and slaughter innocents.

Ben, there is ways of preventing or detecting these types of issues. Its called looking after your troops welfare and well being.

So, have I suggested I am against such a thing? No, I have not. I just don't believe in making excuses for slaughter. Suddenly, it seems as if you do. Strange.

he wanted to kill people

Where did you see this quote? If true, it certainly does raise questions about recruiting standards. However, I have not even seen the man's name, so I am curious as to how you know the content of his recruitment interview.

oginome,

I guess you want to see justification. I don't see it. I also do think the Afghan people had a better chance for better lives and a better country under the NATO supported government rather than the Taliban. However, that has nothing to do with what this murderer did. I do not believe the poster feels that way either. I think you are over-reaching. Read the post to which the poster responded and you should be able to see what I mean.

infer American moral superiority

Not that it justifies this (I can't believe I even need to say that), but the West is in general way more morally superior to the Taliban. I see nothing wrong with stating this. If you disagree, to each his/her own.

Ben Jack

"Actually no what we are currently discussing is the actions of a US military person" Is that what you have been discussing? It seems that you have been discussing how bad the US is.

No actually l have been pointing out that while this mans actions are disgusting and horrible the organisation behind him also deserves to share some of the blame. That is what l have been saying if you only listened

"This has absolutely nothing to do with the Taliban at all." Funny. The writer of this article disagrees with you, did you read it? By the way, according to the article, the Taliban disagree with you, too.

Ok sorry the Taliban are mentioned in one paragraph where they threaten revenge for the attacks. But somehow you manage to turn this one paragraph into the whole argument and justification.

Sure, you asked them in a post in a discussion you were doing badly in why moderators had not asked me to change it and suggesting they should. Pretty low attempt to win an argument. Kind of like your attempts to bring it up again now.

Oh really and that has what to do with this story? Sour grapes anyone? You are the one getting upset. Not me.

Your supposed country willingly participated. It is now as popular in your supposed country as it is in the US. ie: Not very.

Funny the way you keep saying my "supposed country" to use your words "Pretty low attempt to win an argument" dont know how questioning someones home country is relevant by the way were do you suppose lm from. Read any of my posts and you will se l make no secret of where im from

"he wanted to kill people" Where did you see this quote? If true, it certainly does raise questions about recruiting standards. However, I have not even seen the man's name, so I am curious as to how you know the content of his recruitment interview

Ben you obviously didnt read my post l suggest you go back and read it again. Maybe this time you will comprehend what l was referring too......

No actually l have been pointing out that while this mans actions are disgusting and horrible the organisation behind him also deserves to share some of the blame

We don't know that there is any blame on the part of the military as a whole. We do know they also must take responsibility for a member's actions.

But somehow you manage to turn this one paragraph into the whole argument and justification.

Nope. Never have and never will justify what happened. I won't make excuses for it either. Would that you could say the same.

Oh really and that has what to do with this story?

Good question. Why then did you originally bring the subject up? Maybe you had better start sticking to the subject at hand as that route is now gone to you.

Maybe this time you will comprehend what l was referring too......

Oh, you mean it had nothing to do with this particular incident? Thanks. That is what I thought. That is what I was referring to.

I think Cletus' main point is that US soldiers are a bunch of hooligans. The extra fluff in his posts is his way of trying to make it sound like he's come to a rational conclusion that has nothing to do with bias. Generally he does a good job of hiding bias - let's not forget it takes a lot of effort - but his arguments like "I am taking into account troops numbers" is where he kind of screws things up. He needs to tighten things up a bit. The key is making people believe that you actually believe what you're saying and he's almost there.

Cletus and Ben Jack, you are going around in circles. From here on, posts that are repetitive will be removed.

Ben Jack

"No actually l have been pointing out that while this mans actions are disgusting and horrible the organisation behind him also deserves to share some of the blame" We don't know that there is any blame on the part of the military as a whole. We do know they also must take responsibility for a member's actions.

Well lets have a look at this statement shall we. The guys home base in the US has been the center of attention (in the media and of government inquiries) for the last couple of years due to number of suicides, murders, and deaths. The base was named the US militaries most troubled base by the militaries own newspaper (Stars and Stripes), not to mention the base was also home to soldiers convicted of killing other Afghan civilians in the past couple of years. since 2010 the base has been the center of attention with one soldier from their killing a police officer, another held 3 people hostage demanding mental health treatment, another killed a forest ranger, another only yesterday was arraigned after hiring a hitman to kill his superior officer. And to top it all off the base is also being looked at for misdiagnosis of troops with mental health issues, with accusations that troops with PTSD are not being diagnosed to save the military money. Now none of this excuses in any way shape or form what this guy did but it does indeed show that there is a major issue within the US military and maybe these soldiers arnt getting the support they need and deserve. And its amusing to me that yourself and SuperLib belittle me for making these accusations and accuse me of US bashing but l will leave the last word up to someone else and it is "an Army veteran who served in Iraq from 2006 to 2007 in the same unit as the Afghan shooting suspect, blames the incidents on the military, which he said is not providing adequate access to mental-health services." Now that isnt me saying that but a former member of the US military and l would say he knows better than you or l now wouldnt you?

Cletus,

As I wrote, if it is shown adequate medical care was not provided to this soldier and/or that it was previously known that he had mental issues, it certainly does raise questions about recruiting and command standards in the specific base where this soldier came from. I am certainly open to that possibility because it is certainly possible. However, we are talking about this specific individual, not a group of people or even other people. Since we do not have the facts yet, suggestions that the whole US military, is to blame ring slightly less than true. Do you see the difference? If this were happening on every base and with every soldier, than it would ring truer. Speaking of belittling, you might want to reexamine your own choice of words and phrase when dealing with opinions that differ from your own.

Mental illness is not limited to the US military. You have claimed that your country treats its soldiers better, but an Australian study, based on a survey of 30,000 ADF personnel, warned that the youngest members are particularly at risk of having an undiagnosed mental disorder and many will leave the forces after five years of service without their disorder being treated. So, jumping on the US military wagon is bad might not be the best way to make your point.

This man was sick, not because he was a member of the US military, but because he was sick. If it is shown that authorities knew he was sick and sent him anyway, they should be punished.

Ben Jack

As I wrote, if it is shown adequate medical care was not provided to this soldier and/or that it was previously known that he had mental issues, it certainly does raise questions about recruiting and command standards in the specific base where this soldier came from. I am certainly open to that possibility because it is certainly possible. However, we are talking about this specific individual, not a group of people or even other people.

Well as you seem to ignore facts l will spell them out again for you. Yes we are talking about this individual soldier, you say "not a group of people or even other people." so you are ignoring the other 4 personal from this very same base that are currently in prison for murdering Afghan civilians in past actions. You seem bent on looking at this as an individual case and all l am suggesting is while disgusting it may actually show a larger more systematic issue at hand.

Since we do not have the facts yet, suggestions that the whole US military, is to blame ring slightly less than true. Do you see the difference?

Well lets see what facts are available, the independent provider for mental health services for the US military (and incidentally the located at this very base) has been suspended pending an inquiry that they have been deliberately not diagnosing mental issues with US military personal in order to save the military an estimated $1.5 million per case. So to say that its not a larger problem well l guess your perception is a little different to mine.

If this were happening on every base and with every soldier, than it would ring truer.

Yes you are partly right if it were at every base then that would be a bigger issue. But the fact that it is happening at one base and is happening enough to warrant investigations and the armies own newspaper calling this base a troubled base would actually indicate a problem wouldnt you agree. Or is it easier to throw your hands up and say "oh its an isolated incident and he's a nut, there is nothing else wrong"? Is it an isolated incident? No, if you think it is your kidding yourself. Does it suggest a larger issue? Maybe. Is the guy a nutter? Probably, but maybe just maybe he is a sign of a larger problem and doesnt it make sense to examine that before righting it off.

Speaking of belittling, you might want to reexamine your own choice of words and phrase when dealing with opinions that differ from your own.

Um Nope sorry, but every time anyone comes on this forum and says anything critical of the US they tend to get the same 4 or 5 posters howling them down and accusing them of all sorts of things from being terrorist supporters to anything else you care to throw. So before you lecture me on my choice of words you need to look at your own and those of your flag waving compatriots. Afterall we are allowed our own opinions even if you dont agree.

Ben Jack

Mental illness is not limited to the US military. You have claimed that your country treats its soldiers better, but an Australian study, based on a survey of 30,000 ADF personnel, warned that the youngest members are particularly at risk of having an undiagnosed mental disorder and many will leave the forces after five years of service without their disorder being treated. So, jumping on the US military wagon is bad might not be the best way to make your point.

Indeed the ADF does have issues with PTSD and undiagnosed mental illness however let me ask you this. When was the last time an active or reserve or retired member of the ADF went on a killing spree? Just a hint that would be 1987 there Ben.

This man was sick, not because he was a member of the US military, but because he was sick. If it is shown that authorities knew he was sick and sent him anyway, they should be punished.

Agreed that this man was and is sick. But you and your flag waving cohorts seem hell bent on pinning this purely on him and wont even entertain the idea that anything else was to blame.

But heres the interesting point you say "This man was sick, not because he was a member of the US military", agreed he was not sick because he was a member of the military but maybe he was sick because of what he has been through in his service in the US military. And furthermore you say "it is shown that authorities knew he was sick and sent him anyway, they should be punished." well if they didnt know he was sick doesnt that indicate a problem where homicidal people are given guns and training and sent to stressful positions? Can you see what l am saying? I am actually not sticking it to the US military believe it or not l am merely saying this and previous issues tend to show that maybe there is a larger issue at play

But the Taliban are not the ones that go around saying they are their to make the Afghans live better

Someone knows next to zero about Islam and its more violent proponents.

Cletus: Well as you seem to ignore facts l will spell them out again for you. Yes we are talking about this individual soldier, you say "not a group of people or even other people." so you are ignoring the other 4 personal from this very same base that are currently in prison for murdering Afghan civilians in past actions.

That's odd. I don't remember you talking about this before. All of your comments were about the lack of help soldiers were getting in combat areas and the number of deployments with absolutely no mention of his home base. It's almost as if..and stop me if I'm wrong....you were just making up stuff in the beginning, then you read an article, and now you can toss aside your made-up stuff and use the new information. That's not what happened, is it?

Don't get me wrong. It may very well be that this is a situation where this base isn't giving the level of care that soldiers need and attention to this base might help all soldiers. I just want to make sure that that was your position from the beginning and that you weren't just making stuff up because of a personal need to constantly criticize.

as you seem to ignore facts

What 'facts' have I ignored? While it may be true that this soldier was not given treatment deemed necessary or that there are other problems specific to this case, these have not been brought to light. I have said that if this is the case, I think those responsible should be punished. It does not change that fact that your attempt to indict the entire US military and its members still rings hollow. That is really the only point of disagreement I am having with your attempted argument. You are so busy spitting out ad hominems that you cannot see this. Some things never change. Anyway, enjoy. As has been mentioned, I have had enough of this circle dance in this discussion.

What about the fallout from over 1,700 deaths of American servicemen who died fighting the evil bastards who would torture and kill all of us without hesitation or remorse?

I guess you want to see justification. I don't see it. I also do think the Afghan people had a better chance for better lives and a better country under the NATO supported government rather than the Taliban. However, that has nothing to do with what this murderer did. I do not believe the poster feels that way either. I think you are over-reaching. Read the post to which the poster responded and you should be able to see what I mean.

Yes, the poster tried to bring in the Taliban and the alternate situation that would exist if America had never invaded to deflect from what this murderer did.

Not that it justifies this (I can't believe I even need to say that), but the West is in general way more morally superior to the Taliban. I see nothing wrong with stating this. If you disagree, to each his/her own.

This is exactly what I mean. The poster was trying to use that general moral superiority to rationalise.

Okay so we've surmised by the US haters on here that we are to blame for the problem in the Middle East as a whole. I am not a US hater, but rather a lover of my country - but okay let's be honest with ourselves. Let's also realize that the blame, while centered on the old 'evil USA' (because you all know that to the last man, woman and child we're nothing short of devils just plotting for our own dark cause) I would want to add Britain and some other Western countries to the culprits as well. And I would also add the Saudis and all the oil producing countries where the very wealthy are so to the detriment of their fellow countrymen. And I think we could also add as blame the folks in the ME as well for being so fractured and clannish that they can never get it together and agree on absolutely anything to have a solid voice against the evil west who has so taken advantage of them.

The Middle East is about oil, and about the strategy of controlling it for our (oil using west) own devices. Fair enough. To that end there has been no end of wrangling, political back-stabbing, war and death. It is the root cause that groups like the Taliban hate us, and the reasons for 9/11. Of course turmoil in the ME has existed since time began. Their fractious and volatile nature, climate, geography and lack of some other resources keeps them from otherwise becoming 'civilized' industrial giants.

Solution - and the only one that will ever work: End our dependence on foreign oil once and for all. Major economic shift? Yes. Major manufacturing shift? Yes. Billions in researching alternate fuel source cars that can actually go for long distances, don't have to charge for half a day and are cheap enough to afford. The major oil companies will oppose - and go under. The car manufacturers would have to re-tool and rethink. Yes, some jobs would go away, but many more would be created. It's not a simple unplug from one and plug into another, but rather a really major economic and manufacturing shift.

Benefits: we end our slavery of oil dependence. The ME problem becomes THEIR problem. They can fight it out to the bitter end. They want us out - get out. End foreign aid. They will very quickly revert to even more of a third world morass, but one we will not have to concern ourselves with. It would be quite interesting to see who they would blame their problems on if not the evil west - although I suspect that much as the liberals still pin every issue in the world on old GB they (those in the ME) would still find cause to blame us. We would begin to use alternative fuels and hopefully help save the environment. As old Charlie Sheen might say - Winning. No dependence, cleaner cars, cleaner air, more environmentally friendly, no more $5 a gallon at the pump. Problems: many of course, but we have bright minds and with the resources saved from all that foreign aid, we can overcome these. All sorts of problems with nuclear weapons and that kind of thing - Israel would likely sort that all out just fine on their own.

There, I've done it - solved the ME problem. Your welcome. MBE's, OBE's and Nobel Prizes all around. Now let's go get a drink. I'm buying.

The poster was trying to use that general moral superiority to rationalise.

To rationalize the invasion perhaps, but I don't see that it was an attempt to rationalize the slaughter of innocents by this soldier.

Had the article been about an Afghan killer, then you'd see the attempts to rationalize the slaughter of innocents. But mostly it would have been ignored with token outrage and a topic shift to the invasion.

To rationalize the invasion perhaps, but I don't see that it was an attempt to rationalize the slaughter of innocents by this soldier.

No it was, by implying that the actions of this murderer were a necessary sacrifice for being under US rule versus Taliban.

Had the article been about an Afghan killer, then you'd see the attempts to rationalize the slaughter of innocents. But mostly it would have been ignored with token outrage and a topic shift to the invasion.

Nope, if it was an Afghan killer, then I'd want him to face justice too. Stop trying to play the 'America can never please anyone' victim card.

No it was, by implying that the actions of this murderer were a necessary sacrifice for being under US rule versus Taliban.

It don't see where that was implied or suggested anywhere but in your own posts. In fact, the poster himself has refuted such suggestions already. Why ignore that in favor of continued projections? I have not seen one person on this site make any such implication in point of fact.

Anyway, I say all foreign troops should get the heck out. Today could not be fast enough.

It don't see where that was implied or suggested anywhere but in your own posts. In fact, the poster himself has refuted such suggestions already. Why ignore that in favor of continued projections? I have not seen one person on this site make any such implication in point of fact.

Yes, he certainly implied with the 'we Americans care about Afghans who die' indirectly saying that their fate at the hands of these murderous American solider was preferable had they suffered the same under the Taliban.

Anyway, I say all foreign troops should get the heck out. Today could not be fast enough.

Now this I can agree with you on.

Yes, he certainly implied with the 'we Americans care about Afghans who die' indirectly saying that their fate at the hands of these murderous American solider was preferable had they suffered the same under the Taliban.

Completely disagree. There is nothing in this discussion that even resembles such a comment. Can I recommend that you just read people's comments instead of giving your own interpretations of them.

Now this I can agree with you on.

It will ironic if Karzai asks the US for shelter when the Taliban goes looking for his head after the foreign troops leave.

@BenJack:

It will ironic if Karzai asks the US for shelter when the Taliban goes looking for his head after the foreign troops leave.

Karzai knows that Obama isn't committed to supporting his government once the president is able to get all American troops out of Afghanistan. After Obama cut's and runs, Karzai will be left to deal with the Taliban on his own. Since Obama will not support him, Karzai is using occasions such as this rampage by a US soldier to attack the US and bolster his own image for the time when the US is gone. When he is on his own, he wants to be able to make the argument that he wasn't just a stooge of the US. I think the way that Karzai is acting is a reflection of his lack of confidence that he will be able hold the country together by himself.

Completely disagree. There is nothing in this discussion that even resembles such a comment. Can I recommend that you just read people's comments instead of giving your own interpretations of them.

Yes there was. I just said why. It seems like the one imposing interpretations is yourself.

It will ironic if Karzai asks the US for shelter when the Taliban goes looking for his head after the foreign troops leave.

Not really. Karzai was placed in his position by US troops, so it wouldn't be ironic if the Taliban went after him.

Obama saids "the U.S. takes this as seriously as if it was our own citizens and our own children who were murdered.” What if the trial takes place in Kansas? The prosecuting attorney need to gather all the eye witness and they need to gather other direct and indirect evidence. In order to have a fair trial, how is Obama going to transport all the strong witness from Afghanistan to Kansas? If they have a trial in Kansas, it won't be a fair trial because the key witness will not be present. This is how Obama wants it.