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Official: Woman killed in Washington chase was delusional

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By ERIC TUCKER

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Sorry, not much the police can do with a delusional person like this. This could have been a terrorist, etc..and I know everyone will thumb me down,but the cops did the right thing.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Don't know if it was the right thing or not, but in America if you disobey a cop's command for anything you're as good as dead.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

This is sad, I feel sorry for the woman, her daughter, mother and sisters, and I'm glad no one was seriously hurt or killed.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

I'm glad no one was seriously hurt or killed.

I think you mean "I'm glad no one ELSE was seriously hurt or killed," right?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Typically heavy handed response to the situation. Shoot first, ask questions later.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

but in America if you disobey a cop's command for anything you're as good as dead.

Especially if you do something like that around the Capitol.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

the driver rammed the barricades

... what barricade did she ram and when? I keep hearing this claim repeated, but there's not a single witness to this claim, no evidence of ramming a barricade on her car... in fact this is a complete nonsense... much like:

Investigators have been interviewing Carey’s family about her mental condition, which had been deteriorating over the past 10 months, the official said. The woman had made delusional “expressions about the president in the past” and “believed there was some communications to her,” and concerns about her mental health were reported in the last year to Stamford police, the official said.

Nonsense. The young mother suffered from postpartum depression, which is so common that about 15% of new mothers suffer from it and has NEVER ONCE before shown any link with behavior more violent than breaking down into tears. It is a temporary hormone imbalance as a result of the massive changes in the body after pregnancy and self-corrects in the vast majority of cases within about a year.

... and this nonsense about people reporting her to the police and the police actually keeping records of this? She had no criminal record, so she hadn't done anything wrong, so basically the Stamford police are admitting that they collect rumors and gossip about citizens? ... or maybe the CIA provided it from her cellphone records?

You're going to hear a LOT more of this nonsense as the U.S. Government desperately scrabbles to try and smear this young woman. I'd recommend taking it all with a few pounds of salt, and cutting the girl some slack. The U.S. government has been monitoring your private communications for ages, so they'll find something odd about you... and if they don't, well, they can always make something up. The fact that ALL they could come up with on this girl is that local gossiping grannies didn't like her and that Stamford police were unprofessional enough to listen to the gossips... well, that just shows you how little they have. Expect the next headline to read something like, "Carey had contact with Al-Qaeda agents!" ... with the actual substance of the report stating that three weeks before she purchased a hot dog from a vendor who may have been a Muslim... or at very least knew someone who had been to the Middle-East once... clearly a terrorist though!!!!!!!1111

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Fungy, I completly agree with you about your points of the Government. However, regardless of what lies or whatever the government makes up about this woman, what took place around the capitol happened. I'm sure that if this same scenario took place around a Walmart parking area in any other state, the woman would not have gotten shot.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The tale being spun is indeed fantastical, and only loosely based on the truth, which since she was summarily executed we'll never know. MiniTru hard at work spinning this yarn.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 05, 2013 - 05:40PM JST I'm sure that if this same scenario took place around a Walmart parking area in any other state, the woman would not have gotten shot.

... actually. not. Last week there was a case of an SUV driver being attacked by some bikers. The SUV driver stopped, the bikers blocked his way and tried to yank open his door, he went forward over them, seriously injuring one. EVERYONE agreed that it was clear and simple self-defense.

The same situation here. Woman in her car comes to a barrier. Tries to turn, her car but some unidentified guy with a gun comes out and starts trying to bar her exit. She hits him with her car. EXACTLY the same situation. Clear and simple self-defense, all as a result of the secret service agent's initial mishandling of the situation.

That the police then continued to harass and assault the victim of an assault by a government official? A clear and blatant misuse of power. The fact that she didn't stop? Both reasonable and rational considering the police's conduct. Also, LEGALLY SPEAKING, not only did she not have to stop, but the cops were CLEARLY operating well outside of the criteria required for them to draw their weapons. She posed NO threat until they assaulted her (offered the threat of force by drawing their firearms). Legally speaking, the video shows a passive driver being assaulted by several police officers (legal definition of assault also includes the threat of force, such as drawing a firearm unnecessarily).

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

It really boils down to the location. If you had a large backpack on and jumped a fence at a museum, you'd probably get subdued. If you were to jump the fence at the White House, you're more than likely to get killed after one or two warnings.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

If you were to jump the fence at the White House, you're more than likely to get killed after one or two warnings.

Really ? It has happened before and believe it or not the perpetrators were easily disabled with shots to the knee or arm. What definitely does boil down to location in police being empowered to get out several rounds on a moving vehicle with a high probability of innocent deaths instead of resorting to more creative solutions like more cars to box the vehicle in or placing tire deflation devices in the road.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Most of black friends say they know not to mess around with the police (white) and most of the black people I have spoken are not surprised and even if they feel sorry for this black woman, no one is exactly surprised. But ok, she was black, now if she had been white?? How many people would be feeling that sorry for a nutty white woman who is caught on VIDEO trying to smash her car into the barricades of a street that lead directly to the US White House?? Her car was surround by Capitol police patrol cars but she still was able to escape from the police there and the car chase continued until she was shot dead. So I can not believe some guys are going on the she did not try to ram barricades, IT WAS CAUGHT ON TAPE!! This tape is not only on CNN, ABC, BBC, NHK but go look it up on YOUTUBE etc..if you have problems believing crimes obviously caught on CCTV etc..time to stop smoking that pakalolo (ganja), etc...

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Lizz, did they stop? Or did they refuse commands and keep trying to get where they wanted to go? IIfthey weren't killed, Iwould guess they stopped in their tracks?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

In a regular area, she has a better chance. But in a highly sensitive security area between the White House and Capitol Hill, this may sound harsh, but yes security err on the side of max caution with extreme prejudice over the risks how ever small having these institutions blown up. (Akin to going from Defcon-5 to Defcon-2 immediately without having to go thru Defcon-3 and -4.) People can't seem to wrap their mind that this is not a regular area.

The lady had not once but twice broke away from police stops - at some point it becomes the driver's responsibility to heed police warnings. (I dunno if ya guys know this, but in the US, you are allowed to call the 9-1-1 emergency number similar to Japan's 1-1-9, in order to ask the 9-1-1 operator to make sure it is in fact the police following you, wherein the operator would get in contact with the local police dispatcher.) It is sad and unfortunate if this is due to her mental instability that she was in the wrong place wrong time to be mentally unstable.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Well, there is not a lot that can be done except stop them on the lawn without the White House being turned into a fortress. The only guy that was killed I think happened in 1976 although it seems there were like 4 or 5 attempts a year under Bush and Clinton and none of them came close to hurting the president. True terrorists, with training and direction, will find a more effective route than climbing a fence, usually unarmed or with a crude weapon.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Not enough mental health care in our society.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

This young lady obviously panicked and gets shredded by these trigger happy dumb cops.They pumped 17 rounds into her. This could be your wife, your girlfriend and that poor child 18 months old traumatized screaming for her mother as the bullets rip through her flesh. These cops are so idiotic and so quick to pull a gun on a woman? There are good law enforcement police officers out there that are standing up to the constitution but the rest of you young punks who have a badge and a gun you need to wake up! This was uncalled for.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

This could be your wife, your girlfriend

No it couldn't.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

This:

A woman shot to death by police outside the Capitol building after she tried to drive through barricades

is in serious conflict with this:

The chain of events in Washington began when the woman sped onto a driveway leading to the White House, over a set of barricades. When the driver couldn’t get through a second barrier, she spun the car in the opposite direction,

Yet they are both from the same article.

Looks to me like Frungy was and is right: somebody left those barricades down and she drove in quite normally. Then a plain clothes secret service guy drew his gun and freaked her right out.

And the press is trying to back pedal sans admission of error.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

ControlFreakOct. 05, 2013 - 07:56PM JST Looks to me like Frungy was and is right: somebody left those barricades down and she drove in quite normally. Then a plain clothes secret service guy drew his gun and freaked her right out.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I was beginning to wonder if lobotomies had become a prerequisite for U.S. citizenships. The first witnesses quoted stated that the first series of barriers was down, and when she finally got to one that was up she saw she couldn't go that way and started to turn her car around. No ramming of barrier, no delusions, just someone who took a wrong turn and only realised it when she got to a closed gate. I don't think there's a single one of us who hasn't done this at least once. You're driving along what looks like a road, then suddenly there's a gate and you realise that you've been driving on some incredibly rich dude's private road/driveway. No fuss though, you just turn around.

But in this case the secret service agent couldn't just see that he'd left the barriers down and some tourist had taken a wrong turn. He couldn't just do the humane thing and let the woman turn her car around and leave like she wanted to. He couldn't even be a nice guy and walk out and offer to help her with directions.

Nooooo, instead he jumps out like an utter lunatic with his gun drawn and starts trying to stop her from leaving. He doesn't identify himself, instead he just assumes he has the god-given right to point a gun at a citizen and try and detain them. Right there he's guilty of assault with a deadly weapon and attempted kidnapping. All because he couldn't be the least little bit of a decent human being.

And the press is trying to back pedal sans admission of error.

That's pretty typical of the press these days. More obsessed with their image than the truth. IMHO the freedom of the press should be severely curtailed until they can prove that what they're saying is the truth.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Frungy

Anywhere else I'd sympathize that too much force was used. Are you familiar with DC and the area around the White House? I sincerely doubt that you are. It's not like this woman accidentally drove into an unmarked driveway or suddenly encountered a gate on a public road and was surprised. The access point at 15th St and E St couldn't be more clearly marked with Do Not Enter, 100% ID Check, and Restricted Access signs as well as large concrete barriers placed in a serpentine pattern like there are at all military bases and most high value government facilities. You have to turn completely off of 15th street into the access road through a very narrow entrance. Instead of letting the Secret Service Agent approach her to identify who was attempting to access one of the most protected government buildings in the country in an unauthorized vehicle, she tried to get away. Sorry, but you just can't do that at the White House or at any military base because that's precisely how terrorists test accessibility and responses, by making soft probes. That's why personnel guarding access points like this are tasked with identifying the people and vehicles who attempt to make unauthorized entries so they can watch for patterns and links to known organizations. It's too bad that the woman panicked trying to get out of there or that she chose to flee from marked police vehicles that were trying to stop her, but that's not the responsibility of the agents or the police who's priority was the security of the White House and the POTUS and had no way of knowing of her mental condition. The woman's death is regrettable, but again no one's fault but hers, and I for one am glad that security at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. is as tight as it evidently is.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I guess they did not have a spike strip.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Well, watching the video on YouTube, I'm not surprised at how it ended, though that doesn't make it any less tragic. The car is already nose first into those metal post barriers when the video starts, but she ignores several armed police officers, almost runs one down (you can see him dive out of the way), then circles back to the roundabout toward them. Considering where this took place and the real potential for very bad things to happen, I can understand why the police acted to end it. As I said, this doesn't reduce the tragedy of it all. It seems she had no real intent to do anyone harm, but we've only learned that in the aftermath. A very sad day for her family.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sorry but some NON Americans that have NO idea what DC is like should maybe wait and ask real Americans or others that actually understand what Washington DC is like. You have to be an idiot to try and get that close to the US White House, the US president etc..this woman could have easily been a TERRORIST! No?? Hey, just look at what happened out in Nairobi, Kenya a few weeks ago, does anybody in the USA after 9/11 still believe the USA is "special" and that "terrorism" will only happen in weaker far away countries like Europe, Israel, etc...???No, anybody with half a brain knows the USA is a prime target for crazies and terrorists etc...Now, sure, this woman just happened to be nuts and ended up paying with her life. Could the police have KNOWN she was just stupid and crazy?? NO! The police there in DC know that if the sh!t hits the fan, they have to shoot to kill or end up getting killed to save the US president, etc..Now, after this poor stupid crazy woman gets shot and killed dead,how many REAL terrorists or wanna be jihadis will it take to say, let me go rent a car etc...and try to get as close to the white house and??? Yes, have their cars, trucks loaded with explosives etc..and the cops who are just trying to protect us and the president will end up getting blown up into a million pieces??

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

@USNinJapan " for one am glad that security at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. is as tight as it evidently is"

I'm not sure I agree. We could argue that security is pretty weak when police have to resort to shooting someone because they are unable to bring a vehicle to a stop. Until I hear further information, as a poster above says, it appears like a summary execution.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Obama presidency was anointed by the media and this poor soul took the anointed one seriously to the point of delusional in her neuron transmission signals. If no baby inside the car, a possibility for her to be shot at even grater in earlier stage of confrontation.There are more out there and hope they receive different signals not to waste any lives. N.Koreans worship the Kim dynasty but have no freedom to express as such. People still worships the "higher personality authority" till today, even many have died "in the name of God"?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@TheDevilsAssistant

I am sure glad she couldn't be your wife( or girlfriend).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well, watching the video on YouTube, I'm not surprised at how it ended, though that doesn't make it any less tragic. The car is already nose first into those metal post barriers when the video starts...

@donkusai--Its vital to remember that where the video starts is definitely not where the incident starts. This whole thing started earlier.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 05, 2013 - 11:45PM JST Anywhere else I'd sympathize that too much force was used.

The President isn't a King. He isn't irreplaceable, and his life isn't worth more than the life of ANY other U.S. citizen. By stating that a lower standard is required for the use of the lethal force simply because the President lives there you're undermining the ENTIRE U.S. constitution, the idea of being "equal" created, before the law, etc.

The law is the law, on a U.S. base, in the White House, and in your local Walmart. Anyone who says differently clearly doesn't understand the U.S. constitution.

Are you familiar with DC and the area around the White House? I sincerely doubt that you are.

You're right, I wasn't... but the wonderful thing about living in the 21st century is that I have access to wonderful tools like Google Earth and most importantly, Google street view, and I can now state with confidence that while I'm not very familiar with D.C.... well, neither are you.

It's not like this woman accidentally drove into an unmarked driveway or suddenly encountered a gate on a public road and was surprised. The access point at 15th St and E St

There is no 15th St and E St. It goes 15th and Constitution St, then Pennsylvania Ave NW, then Pennsylvania Ave NW again, then F St NW. There is no 15th St and E St as you claim.

couldn't be more clearly marked with Do Not Enter, 100% ID Check, and Restricted Access signs as well as large concrete barriers placed in a serpentine pattern like there are at all military bases and most high value government facilities.

The access point at 15th St and Pennsylvania Ave NW (below F St) is inaccessible, it has large concrete flower pots in a line across the road. These cannot be "raised and lowered", so whatever account you're reading that she entered here is clearly wrong.

Looking at H-Street NW and Madison NW though, on the google street view it looks a bit like any other side-street. There's a "Stop" and a "Do not enter" sign, but nothing that says, "YOU WILL BE SHOT IF YOU COME UP HERE!" or anything similar. I had a quick look around the city and I saw similar signs outside high security buildings like The Capitol Hilton and the Washington Post.

... in other words, not only does the street you're talking about NOT EXIST, but you're also greatly exaggerating the signage. One "Stop" sign, one "Do not enter" sign. Absolutely NO 100% ID check signs .. and there may have been a "restricted access" sigh down on the ground, but I couldn't read it on google maps because it was so small... which just shows how pathetically ineffective it would have been at alerting a lost driver that they could be entering somewhere odd.

If you check out the Jackson Pl. NW and H-street entrance you can sortof see one of the 100% ID check signs, maybe... but its obscured behind some stacked barrier so it is pretty much useless.

Honestly who fumbled the ball here? Was it the woman who got lost and went down the wrong street, or was it the idiot secret service agent who left the barriers down, then over-reacted when a woman with a little kid in her car tried to leave? If he'd just let her leave then no harm, no foul.

Instead he acted like an ass, broke the law and caused this woman's death.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Sorry but some NON Americans that have NO idea what DC is like should maybe wait and ask real Americans or others that actually understand what Washington DC is like. You have to be an idiot to try and get that close to the US White House, the US president etc..this woman could have easily been a TERRORIST!

Do not be so utterly naive. We NEED NOT to ask anybody "what DC area is like". Some of us live in countries where governmental or military buildings or installations are heavily protected. For instance, you have no idea how many mentally unstable people time to time try to walk or even drive by cars into restricted territory of Moscow Kremlin. Members of secret service stop cars, arrest intruders using by physical force and hand-cuffs in some cases. Because guardsmen are taught by some professional tricks except dumb shooting into intruder.like a freaked idiot from a primitive cowboy movie.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

technosphereOct. 06, 2013 - 11:39AM JST Sorry but some NON Americans that have NO idea what DC is like should maybe wait and ask real Americans or others that actually understand what Washington DC is like.

... and then you'll have Americans saying, "Don't take the word of anyone outside of Washington DC, people in Idaho have no idea what DC is like!!"... and then you'll have people in DC saying, "Oh no! Don't talk to anyone from Burke, that neighbourhood isn't really DC! Only people from Arlington know what its like!"... don't be so utterly ridiculous.

You have to be an idiot to try and get that close to the US White House, the US president etc..this woman could have easily been a TERRORIST!

She wasn't. There was no sign she was IN ANY WAY a terrorist. She took a wrong turn. Apparently not being good at reading a map is now sufficient grounds to be considered a terrorist in the U.S.

Pathetic. You DESERVE the politicians you have and the disaster they've made of your country. I just wish you'd all go home to live in the mess you've made for yourselves rather than trying to import your stupid ideas, paranoia and hypocrisy to everywhere else.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The cops dis the wrong thing. She was unarmed and yet they still shot her.I could think of some other ways they could have handled the situation rather then shooting. The cops did the wrong thing and thats that.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Frungy

I suggest you go bury your nose in Google Maps again. Pennsylvania Ave. continues past 15th St. for about 50 ft before becoming E St. This section of Pennsylvania Ave. is highly restricted to the public, particularly vehicles and is blocked off with concrete barricades and is indeed marked clearly with warning signs. Where Pennsylvania Ave. turns into E. St. is where there are additional gates (not concrete barricades) and is referred to as the White House's E St. Gate. That is where the vehicle was stopped by Secret Service, not at the intersection of 15th and Penn, and that's where she backed into a police vehicle and struck the Secret Service Agent while violently conducting a three point turn to go back out the way she came in ignoring the instructions of the agents and police officers at the scene to stop the car and identify herself. The rest of the chase took place out on the public street to where she was finally stopped and shot over a mile away at 2nd St. and Constitution Ave. Had she not panicked while in the restricted area at the E St. Gate and complied with the instructions of the authorities there none of this would have happened. Instead, she panicked and acted extremely suspiciously and violently inside the highly restricted area, and then led a bunch of marked police cars on a chase for over ten city blocks. You can blame the Secret Service and DC Police only because you have the hindsight ad knowledge that the woman was mentally unstable. Post-partum depression or not, she initiated, caused, and exacerbated the situation which led to her death.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 06, 2013 - 03:06PM JST I suggest you go bury your nose in Google Maps again.

I did as you suggested.

Pennsylvania Ave. continues past 15th St. for about 50 ft before becoming E St.

In other words, E St. doesn't touch 15th St. You admit it. You were wrong, I was right. 15th St and E. St means that is the point where they intersect. They don't intersect, therefore THERE IS NO 15th and E St.

This section of Pennsylvania Ave. is highly restricted to the public, particularly vehicles and is blocked off with concrete barricades and is indeed marked clearly with warning signs. Where Pennsylvania Ave. turns into E. St. is where there are additional gates (not concrete barricades) and is referred to as the White House's E St. Gate.

What you FAIL to mention in your one-sided account is that where Pennsylvania Ave NW (south) and 15th St intersect is a huge intersection. A lost tourist in the northbound-lanes (on the side of the road opposite the entrance) could easily see a turning opportunity to the left, and be unable to see any signs (because she's on the wrong side of the road to see them). She then heads a bit down the road, realises it isn't a through-road and starts to turn her car.

That is where the vehicle was stopped by Secret Service, not at the intersection of 15th and Penn, and that's where she backed into a police vehicle and struck the Secret Service Agent while violently conducting a three point turn to go back out the way she came in ignoring the instructions of the agents and police officers at the scene to stop the car and identify herself.

Violently conducting a 3-point turn? My goodness, what emotive language! A different, and far more rational, reading would be to say that she was turning her car when a man carrying a gun jumped out and panicked her. The man tried to obstruct her escape and she was forced to hit him with her car.

Oh, and stop fabricating stuff to support your case. The early witnesses reported ONE plain-clothes secret service guard. There weren't "agents and police officers" giving "instructions". Instead there was ONE plain-clothes secret service guard waving a gun around and failing to identify himself.

She panicked at the sight of a man waving around a gun, and was more panicked as police officers acted VERY aggressively to try and hem her car in, all the time pointing guns at her. Anyone who believes "the innocent have nothing to fear from the police" obviously isn't a black person in America.

You can blame the Secret Service and DC Police only because you have the hindsight ad knowledge that the woman was mentally unstable.

No, I don't think she was mentally unstable at all. I think she was 100% rational. She was lost in a strange city. She turns down a road, which then turns out to be barricaded, so she tries to turn her car around. Some lunatic with a gun jumps out. She escapes the danger and suddenly police are flashing lights at her and pointing guns. She KNOWS something is terribly wrong, but no-one is speaking to her calmly, instead they're acting like the insane clown brigade and pointing guns at a terrified woman and not giving her a few minutes to calm down.

Honestly if ANYONE is insane I'd recommend psych-evals for the morons in the police and secret service who apparently cannot answer the simple multiple-choice question, "A female civilian is panicked, do you: (a) wave guns at her, (b) Yell, (c) A and B, (d) Give her a few moments to gather her wits and approach her in a calm and reassuring fashion".

... apparently "how to behave like a human being" is not covered in police training.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Give it up frungy. Just because you type the word nonsense seven times in every post, doesn't make it so. The woman's own relatives are quoted as saying she was "sick", "depressed", "deteriorating" and "delusional".

Your comments yesterday about how the woman had no mental problems and how everyone in America but you is fooled by the spin were kind of funny at the time. To see you repeating them today is just, well ... nonsense.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

What we know so far from the press and police: A woman with a history of mental illness who was reported on more than one occasion to the police by her boyfriend for delusional behavior, acting irrationally, and endangering her child, and who allegedly believed that President Obama was stalking her and electronically monitoring her home in order to broadcast her life on television, who was also suffering from post-pardum depression according to her mother, ends up 300 miles away from home for no explicable reason (according to family) and just happens to end up at the gate to the White House, and acts in a way that prompts authorities to treat her as a threat, and instead of acting like most sane people would (e.g. roll down the window, explain that you made a mistake and took a very wrong turn, present ID and comply with every request/demand by authorities) tries to forcefully leave, hitting a person and a police vehicle in the process before being the cause of a police chase which only ends when lethal force is used. Sounds perfectly plausible to me. You on the other hand deny most of these facts and have claimed a whole lot more, but I sure can't find any stories in the MSM that support your version about an innocent tourist who got lost and panicked when she saw a bad man waving a gun, so where are you getting your facts? On what are you basing your account of poor innocent Mirium Carey? It sure isn't any information available to us (including you) via the authorities and the MSM (surprisingly in agreement across the spectrum) which all point to a troubled and unstable individual who acted irrationally and was the cause of her own demise? Feel sorry for Mirium Casey all you want, as do I, but without credible sources your version of the incident is merely supposition.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

hidingoutOct. 06, 2013 - 05:13PM JST Give it up frungy. Just because you type the word nonsense seven times in every post, doesn't make it so. The woman's own relatives are quoted as saying she was "sick", "depressed", "deteriorating" and "delusional".

When and where did they say this? Because I've never seen anything like this:

Carey’s sisters said that she was being tapered her off her medications under the supervision of her doctor, and that she was feeling fine. (Source: http://nation.time.com/2013/10/04/capitol-car-chase-suspect-thought-to-be-depressed/)

Carey's mother earlier said her daughter suffered from postpartum depression. (Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/miriam-carey-shot-dead-on-capitol-hill-was-delusional-officials-say-1.1912164)

Not ONCE does her family describe her as deteriorating. Not ONCE did the family mention delusions, the source for that is an anonymous source in federal law enforcement, and thus far there hasn't been a shred of proof to back it up.

Perhaps I'm picky, but I prefer diagnoses of mental illness to come from someone actually qualified to make them, like a doctor or psychiatrist or psychologist.

Your comments yesterday about how the woman had no mental problems and how everyone in America but you is fooled by the spin were kind of funny at the time. To see you repeating them today is just, well ... nonsense.

So you find the death of this woman funny? I find nothing amusing here. All that I find strange is that people are so ready to believe her guilty based on the word of one of the most dishonest administrations in the history of America.

USNinJapan2Oct. 06, 2013 - 05:28PM JST What we know so far from the press and police: A woman with a history of mental illness who was reported on more than one occasion to the police by her boyfriend for delusional behavior, acting irrationally, and endangering her child,

But never arrested. In other words, there was insufficient evidence of delusional behavior for an involuntary commitment, insufficient evidence of endangering her child to arrest her and call in child protection services.

You know what this adds up to? Nothing. There were ALLEGATIONS of mental illness, that's all.

and who allegedly believed that President Obama was stalking her and electronically monitoring her home in order to broadcast her life on television,

Just hold this thought....

who was also suffering from post-pardum depression according to her mother

She was under the care of a qualified clinician for the postpartum depression and reacting well to the medication. According to her sisters she was getting better and the clinician was withdrawing the medication slowly as, in their opinion, the depression was over.

Now here's the kicker. If she'd been delusional her psychologist/psychiatrist/doctor WOULD have picked it up and administered anti-psychotics. She was on DEPRESSION medication.

Where does this leave us? It leaves us with a woman who HAD depression, but was (in the opinion of a qualified clinician) well enough to stop medication. It leaves us with a woman who, (in the opinion of a qualified clinician) had no other mental disorders, and certainly wasn't a risk to herself or others (because then the clinician would have had her involuntarily committed).

Here's the million dollar question. We know she was seeing a doctor. Why has the doctor never been quoted?

ends up 300 miles away from home for no explicable reason (according to family) and just happens to end up at the gate to the White House,

She took a holiday to DC. Is being spontaneous a crime? Nothing suspicious here unless the U.S. now has rules requiring you to file travel applications if you want to leave your neighborhood? I have friends in the U.S. who take 1000 mile weekend "road trips" for fun and do it three or four times a year. Its U.S. culture apparently, your version of "walkabout"

and acts in a way that prompts authorities to treat her as a threat,

No she didn't. She took a wrong turn, got jumped by a guy with a gun and reacted like any sane human being.

and instead of acting like most sane people would (e.g. roll down the window, explain that you made a mistake and took a very wrong turn, present ID and comply with every request/demand by authorities) tries to forcefully leave

... someone jumps out with a gun, fails to identify themselves as a law enforcement officer, and YOU would apologise and present ID? Umm... I think you're not in the best position to be accusing people of mental illness.

Sounds perfectly plausible to me. You on the other hand deny most of these facts and have claimed a whole lot more

Okay, a quick clarification. I seem to have a higher standard for what constitutes a "fact". It must come from a plausible source, it must line up with the other facts in evidence, etc.

Her boyfriend's claims of insanity? Well, he's not qualified, and we have an unknown doctor somewhere who was treating her for depression and didn't think she was insane. Depressed, yes, psychotic, no. I'm more inclined to take the doctor's opinion. Also the facts don't line up. If she really was saying stuff like that the police would have taken her in for a psych eval at the local hospital. They didn't. Which means something is fishy with those "facts".

I notice that you're also pretty good at ignoring facts. You're just ignoring that the plain clothes secret service agent never identified himself. This has been a fact from the very start. What this means is that some unknown guy jumped out with a gun. You're all too happy to gloss past this.

Generally there seem to be a lot of people here who seem determined to believe that this woman had it coming. It just boggles the mind.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Give it up frungy. Just because you type the word nonsense seven times in every post, doesn't make it so. The woman's own relatives are quoted as saying she was "sick", "depressed", "deteriorating" and "delusional".

Your comments yesterday about how the woman had no mental problems and how everyone in America but you is fooled by the spin were kind of funny at the time. To see you repeating them today is just, well ... nonsense.

By comparison to you, he can back each of his statements by sane and valid arguments. So, "nonsense" belongs to your posts here.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

It's unfortunate that she had to be killed, but she refused to stop. The police did what they had to do.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

technosphere

By comparison to you, he can back each of his statements by sane and valid arguments. So, "nonsense" belongs to your posts here.

Sane and valid arguments? Hardly. All he's done is make ridiculous rationalizations like claiming that Carey was on vacation in DC or accusing other posters of mental illness while ignoring the facts that have already been established and reported like the fact that, aside from the postpartum depression that, she had a family history of schizophrenia and was being weened off of Risperdal, a drug used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder but which ironically can also induce schizophrenia as an adverse effect during discontinuation. The more information comes to light as the days pass regarding Miriam Carey and the circumstances surrounding her actions on and leading up to the fateful day, the more Frungy's interpretation of the incident will continue to increasingly be just that, nonsense.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Readers, please stop bickering.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Good one techno ...... here's the only argument concerning sanity that matters.

Any sane person complies immediately with the directives of uniformed police flashing guns. That goes double if you're on Obama's block.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 07, 2013 - 12:33AM JST All he's done is make ridiculous rationalizations like claiming that Carey was on vacation in DC

So, in your opinion, someone taking a holiday is ridiculous.... I see, hmm... I can understand how living in Japan might create the impression that vacations aren't real, but I can assure you that they do exist.

or accusing other posters of mental illness

In your universe it is completely okay for you to declare that Miriam Carey was delusional... but someone can't do the same to you? Hypocrisy much?

while ignoring the facts that have already been established and reported like the fact that,

Let's go through these "facts", bearing in mind that everything that is reported is not necessarily a fact:

aside from the postpartum depression that, she had a family history of schizophrenia

Yes, she had postpartum depression. About 15% of women experience it, and more than half of the U.S. population will experience severe depression in their life-time. What does this "fact" mean in terms of explaining her behaviour? ... NOTHING.

A "family history" of schizophrenia? ... In other words you're saying that if someone's first cousin died from a heart-attack then they WILL die from a heart-attack? Medically speaking that's how strong a correlation there is between your first cousin having schizophrenia and you having schizophrenia. In other words this "fact" means... drumroll NOTHING.

and was being weened off of Risperdal

eyeroll Firstly, the substance was apparently found in her apartment. It doesn't mean she was taking it or that it even belonged to her. I find the print source where they report on finding this, so I'm dubious about whether this is even true since the "fact" seems to appear out of nowhere.

Secondly, the substance was "similar to" Risperdal. Now if you had any scientific or medical training you'd be shaking your head at this right now, because many things are "similar", but a TINY change in formula results in a COMPLETELY different effect. Ecstacy, for example, is similar to many anti-depressants, but has a completely different effect. Right off the bat this "fact" is looking iffy.

Next, why can't they name the actual medication? If they saw the medication then they should report the correct name, and the fact that they're not reporting the name makes it look like nonsense.

Finally, bi-polar and schizophrenia are life-time conditions generally. You wouldn't wean anyone off a medication like Risperdal unless it wasn't working and you wanted to put them on new meds. Since her sisters testified that she was getting better this casts doubt on the entire bi-polar/schizophrenia hypothesis.

, a drug used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder but which ironically can also induce schizophrenia as an adverse effect during discontinuation.

But that's irrelevant since she WASN'T on Risperdal. It was a substance similar to Risperdal... and side-effects are SPECIFIC to each medication, so you can't say that ibuprofen and aspirin have the same side-effects since they're "similar". Chemically they're VERY different.

Also, concluding that she has schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder based on a dubious report of some medication in her apartment that may or may not belong to her, and is definitely NOT Risperdal, but might be something similar... that's such a massive reach that you must be an orangutan.

The more information comes to light as the days pass regarding Miriam Carey and the circumstances surrounding her actions on and leading up to the fateful day, the more Frungy's interpretation of the incident will continue to increasingly be just that, nonsense.

I've reviewed every single one of the "facts" you supplied, and they're all nonsense, a clear smear campaign against this dead woman. The facts are either meaningless or just plain wrong.

I'm not the one here with nonsense conclusions. Instead I'm actually looking at the "facts" we're being presented in a critical fashion and saying, "Hey, wait a second, these aren't facts at all, and they all smell kindof fishy."

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Sane and valid arguments? Hardly. All he's done is make ridiculous rationalizations like claiming that Carey was on vacation in DC or accusing other posters of mental illness while ignoring the facts that have already been established and reported like the fact that, aside from the postpartum depression that, she had a family history of schizophrenia and was being weened off of Risperdal, a drug used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder but which ironically can also induce schizophrenia as an adverse effect during discontinuation. The more information comes to light as the days pass regarding Miriam Carey and the circumstances surrounding her actions on and leading up to the fateful day, the more Frungy's interpretation of the incident will continue to increasingly be just that, nonsense.

...... here's the only argument concerning sanity that matters.

Any sane person complies immediately with the directives of uniformed police flashing guns. That goes double if you're on Obama's block.

Guys, no need to talk more and aloud about "special conditions inside DC area of Washington". Frungy is right. Your police and secret service who shot to death that poor, scared (mentally unstable or, say shizophrenic) unarmed women showed their true lack of professionalism. Anyone around the Glode, who has a decent knowledges and basic trainings of law enforcer understands it. Members of police squads and secret service demonstrated to the whole World that they are nothing short of bunch of trigger-happy idiots. Period.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

technosphere

Then I suggest that you refrain from reading news stories on this incident because with every new story that's released it's becoming evident how much of a nut case Miriam Carey was.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I'm sorry, but if the woman was scared, she made the U-turn right next to a marked police SUV. Hell, the word police was right at her window. If she was scared of the plain clothes Secret Service guy, there was help for her right outside her drivers door. She fled, drove like a maniac, and got herself killed.

extensive force? Not for that area.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 07, 2013 - 11:16PM JST Then I suggest that you refrain from reading news stories on this incident because with every new story that's released it's becoming evident how much of a nut case Miriam Carey was.

So far there hasn't been a shred of evidence that would stand up in court that Miriam Carey was a "nut case". She was depressed... so is about half of America. She was on some anti-depressants... so is about half of America. That's it. She was no more nutty than most of America.

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 08, 2013 - 12:48AM JST I'm sorry, but if the woman was scared, she made the U-turn right next to a marked police SUV. Hell, the word police was right at her window. If she was scared of the plain clothes Secret Service guy, there was help for her right outside her drivers door. She fled, drove like a maniac, and got herself killed.

I'm sorry to shatter your childhood TheDevilsAssistant, but I'm going to have to break it to you... brace yourself... The Transformers aren't real... and Kit from Knight Rider... he wasn't real either.

SUVs without people in them, even police SUVs, don't help if there isn't a police officer around.

In other words, if some maniac jumped out at me with a gun I wouldn't go, "Oh, I can relax, there's a police cruiser right over there!".... I'd get the hell out of dodge, because the police officer from the police cruiser might be 5 blocks away arguing with some old lady about why her poodle can't defecate there.

So far all of Miriam Carey's actions are consistent with the behavior of a sane, but terrified, woman.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Frungy

Backtrack much? First she didn't have reported psych issues, didn't have a history of odd behavior, and wasn't on psychotropic drugs but now she is. But of course that's perfectly normal and still wouldn't affect how the scenario played out. My god, there's a limit to how many excuses you can make for her.

SUVs without people in them, even police SUVs, don't help if there isn't a police officer around.

The point TheDevilsAssistant is making is that it couldn't have been more evident that she was at a law enforcement checkpoint. Sane people don't panic and flee when they come to a police checkpoint, expected or unexpected. How many other people do you think use this gate to access the White House on a daily basis? Probably in the hundreds. Funny how none of them did what she did...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

SUVs without people in them, even police SUVs, don't help if there isn't a police officer around.

...aaaaand she couldn't see the police behind her (mind you, with the cherries flashing and sirens wailing) when she went on the second part of her "vacation?" Regardless if she was depressed or bippolar, delusional, or even on her period, how she acted is how she acted in an area of high security. If I'm not mistaken, she didn't have a sign on her dashboard stating that she was mentally unstable. There was no way the police could have known. Even if they did, the police were acting on split second decisions based on the area they were protecting and a 'terrorist' for that matter.

If you honest believe that she was just there over 300 miles from her home on vacation and went on her rampage out of fear, then I guess I need to go pick "Kit" and Bumble Bee" up from my mechanic. The repairs are completed.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

SUVs without people in them, even police SUVs, don't help if there isn't a police officer around.

...aaaaand she couldn't see the police behind her (mind you, with the cherries flashing and sirens wailing) when she went on the second part of her "vacation?" Regardless if she was depressed or bippolar, delusional, or even on her period, how she acted is how she acted in an area of high security. If I'm not mistaken, she didn't have a sign on her dashboard stating that she was mentally unstable. There was no way the police could have known. Even if they did, the police were acting on split second decisions based on the area they were protecting and a 'terrorist' for that matter.

If you honest believe that she was just there over 300 miles from her home on vacation and went on her rampage out of fear, then I guess I need to go pick "Kit" and Bumble Bee" up from my mechanic. The repairs are completed.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 08, 2013 - 10:32AM JST Backtrack much? First she didn't have reported psych issues,

I never denied the postpartum depression. Implying that I did is untrue.

didn't have a history of odd behavior,

I didn't backtrack on this. There's no proof of any odd behaviour beyond what you'd expect if someone, for example, started digging into your life.

and wasn't on psychotropic drugs but now she is.

Anti-depressants are not psychotropic drugs. I don't think you even know what a psychotropic drug is.

No backtracking from me.

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 08, 2013 - 12:06PM JST ...aaaaand she couldn't see the police behind her (mind you, with the cherries flashing and sirens wailing) when she went on the second part of her "vacation?"

By that point she was panicked and not thinking clearly. What you're doing is like picking up a camera half way through a bar fight. You can't ignore that she had just been assaulted by a guy with a gun and then the police continued to act very aggressively storming her car and waving guns... you just don't do that to someone who's already panicked and fearful.

Even if they did, the police were acting on split second decisions based on the area they were protecting and a 'terrorist' for that matter.

That is complete b.s. The secret service guard may have been reacting on a split-second decision and drawn his gun and then forgot to identify himself. The police CLEARLY had several minutes of chase time to think, and that no-one had the presence of thought to say, "Hey, one minute guys, this woman has a child in her car and is clearly terrified of us. There's no sign of a gun and all she seems to want to do is run. Maybe we should just give her some space"...

Nope, instead the cops fired shots after her LEAVING car. She wasn't posing a clear and present danger to anyone (she was trying to flee) and cops had NO right to fire those shots.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

That is complete b.s.

What is complete bs is this:

The police CLEARLY had several minutes of chase time to think, and that no-one had the presence of thought to say, "Hey, one minute guys, this woman has a child in her car and is clearly terrified of us. There's no sign of a gun and all she seems to want to do is run. Maybe we should just give her some space"...

And how do they know there is no gun in the car? How do the police know that the car is not a weapon (Car bomb? Suicidal Bomber, etc)? The way she was acting and driving, law enforcement had no other choice but to go into a defensive mode considering the worse case scenario...especially for the high security area she was in. Her having a baby in the car, if all or any of the police actually knew this or not, has no bearing on the outcome. IF she was a terrorist (the police not knowing that she wasn't), it would have not mattered who was in the car if the individual main concern was to inflict major damage, death and destruction as possible.

"Maybe we should give her some space..." In this high security area? Not knowing what she has packed under her car or in her trunk? GIve her time to place the vehicle in a perfect location to kill as many as possible? Give her time to push a button under the dash? Based on the "Don't knows" at the time, the security and police did what they needed to secure the situation.

you might argue that she didn't have any explosives in her trunk. You might argue that she didn't have a button under her dash. you might argue that she was on vacation. You might argue that she was suffering post partum depression, But nobody knew. As I said, based on the high security location and the way she went on her rampage, she brought this on herself.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

My god, there's a limit to how many excuses you can make for her.

No sir. There is no such limit. Excuse making has become a disease. Its rampant.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 08, 2013 - 02:56PM JST And how do they know there is no gun in the car? How do the police know that the car is not a weapon (Car bomb? Suicidal Bomber, etc)? The way she was acting and driving, law enforcement had no other choice but to go into a defensive mode considering the worse case scenario...especially for the high security area she was in. Her having a baby in the car, if all or any of the police actually knew this or not, has no bearing on the outcome. IF she was a terrorist (the police not knowing that she wasn't), it would have not mattered who was in the car if the individual main concern was to inflict major damage, death and destruction as possible.

So the police are entitled to execute people because they MIGHT have a weapon? .... that's not how it works and you KNOW it. The police have to show that a gun was visible before they shoot. They also aren't allowed to shoot at fleeing suspects. They broke EVERY rule in the book.

Where they did it is irrelevant, the law is the law in the White House or in your kitchen. Location doesn't matter.

You're making so many excuses for the police's illegal behavior, but none of it changes a thing.

If anyone is making excuses here it is you, for the police, who really should know better.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Frungy

Anti-depressants are not psychotropic drugs. I don't think you even know what a psychotropic drug is.

Miriam Carey was on Risperdal, a psychotropic drug that's used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, not postpartum depression. If you refer to the link below you'll notice that Risperdal is listed in the "R" section of a list of psychotropic medications. Additionally, many of the other psychotropic drugs also listed are indeed anti-depressants. Surprise, surprise. Look who doesn't know what a psychotropic drug is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychotropic_medications

The police have to show that a gun was visible before they shoot. They also aren't allowed to shoot at fleeing suspects. They broke EVERY rule in the book.

As for the rest of your critical assessment of the actions the Secret Service Agents or DC Police Officers took, it's painfully clear that you have no experience or expertise in law enforcement or force protection. I don't know about the others who are disagreeing with you, but I do have experience, having been the Officer In Charge of a 360 man military police department for an overseas federal installation. In law enforcement and ATFP, deadly force is considered to have been used by a suspect if they use a vehicle (and obviously any other weapon) in a manner that creates the risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to other people. Carey's reaction to being confronted by law enforcement, i.e. ramming her car into a police vehicle and hitting an officer with her vehicle in an attempt to evade, is without a doubt deadly force. Had she not done this, weapons would only have been drawn and not fired and she'd be alive to receive the psychiatric help that she obviously needed and merely have an exciting story to tell at cocktail parties. The law enforcement personnel on scene were absolutely right in using deadly force themselves to stop her from continuing or escalating her actions. Regardless of how much you decry their actions, the responding law enforcement officers did their jobs correctly as trained based on the information available to them at the time.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Fungy, she was driving the obvious weapon. Because of her wreckless behavior, the police had to expect the worse. If anyone is making excuses, its you...talking about vacations and other things.

If she did get far enough and detonated her car and killed numerous people, you'd be the first to complain that law enforcement didn't do enough. She took the mom away from her baby.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

So the police are entitled to execute people because they MIGHT have a weapon? .... that's not how it works and you KNOW it. The police have to show that a gun was visible before they shoot. They also aren't allowed to shoot at fleeing suspects. They broke EVERY rule in the book.

I am shocked. Earlier only hollywood movies used to depict some bloody dictatorships where soldiers or policemen shoot to death unarmed civilians without any reasons. Iraq, Somalia, North Korea, China, Russia.......Now Average Joe fully supports the same brutal action accomplished by members of secret service and policemen of DC. What a brainless, boneless, cowardly herd ! They deserve to live in orwellian reality.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

USNinJapan2Oct. 08, 2013 - 09:10PM JST Miriam Carey was on Risperdal,

And all the cops were on LSD! I read it on www.tinfoilhatsrus.com! ... see, I can make up stuff too. Miriam Carey wasn't on Risperdal. There isn't a single credible source claiming that.

As for the rest of your critical assessment of the actions the Secret Service Agents or DC Police Officers took, it's painfully clear that you have no experience or expertise in law enforcement or force protection.

It is likewise painfully clear that you have no experience or expertise in law enforcement or you would be familiar with the criteria required for a police officer to discharge their weapon. The first criteria is that there must be an imminent threat. Watch the video again, Carey is driving off, with no-one in sight and you hear the "pop pop pop" of the firing guns.

In law enforcement and ATFP, deadly force is considered to have been used by a suspect if they use a vehicle (and obviously any other weapon) in a manner that creates the risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to other people. -

Thanks for my laugh for the evening. I can just see the line outside the pearly gates: St. Peter: Name, age and cause of death. Granny: Matilda, 83. I was just a few centimeters over the stop sign and the police officer shot me. Apparently I was at risk of injuring someone crossing the road.

St. Peter: Next. Name, age and cause of death. Businessman: James, VP of Finance, 45. I spilled coffee on my leg while I was driving and my car drifted over towards the next lane. A police officer pulled up next to my car and gave me both barrels from a sawed-off!

... In your universe USNinJapan the cops would rack up an IMPRESSIVE body count in just a few days. They could cancel daily target practice and just go out and watch for moving violations.

Oh, and your idea of a vehicle as a weapon? Yeah, that does work, but you're not factoring in self-defense. Miriam Carey felt in danger of her life. She was entitled to use lethal force to defend herself, even against the cops. She'd have some SERIOUS explaining to do in court, but given the secret service agent's failure to identify himself and then the overly aggressive action taken by the cops I'm pretty sure a sympathetic judge would give her a slap on the wrist since she didn't kill anyone and the cops broke the law first.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

St. Peter: Name, age and cause of death. Granny: Matilda, 83. I was just a few centimeters over the stop sign and the police officer shot me. Apparently I was at risk of injuring someone crossing the road. St. Peter: Next. Name, age and cause of death. Businessman: James, VP of Finance, 45. I spilled coffee on my leg while I was driving and my car drifted over towards the next lane. A police officer pulled up next to my car and gave me both barrels from a sawed-off!

What are you rambling on about?

Still can't find anywhere that states she went on vacation. Oh, I'm sorry, did you make that excuse up?

Anyway, I'm glad your not in law enforcement.

And although I'm not American, my hat goes off for USNINJAPAN, for your service. Thank you.

Fungy, I also have over twenty years of anti-terrorism hands-on training for a country that I wish not divulge. In my country , given the same scenario next to our government capital, her whole car would have been taken out...baby and all. So what happened in DC isn't event close to being extreme. I have nothing but praise for how law enforcement and secret service handled the situation.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 08, 2013 - 11:09PM JST Anyway, I'm glad your not in law enforcement.

Why? You'd be a lot safer if I was.

Fungy, I also have over twenty years of anti-terrorism hands-on training for a country that I wish not divulge. In my country , given the same scenario next to our government capital, her whole car would have been taken out...baby and all. So what happened in DC isn't event close to being extreme. I have nothing but praise for how law enforcement and secret service handled the situation.

I have no idea what country you worked for, but if it supports killing citizens for taking a wrong turn then it is fairly clear why you don't want to identify it, from shame.

And that with 20 years of "anti-terrorism hands-on training" you couldn't come up with a better way of stopping her than blowing up the car? Wow, that training must REALLY suck. I mean I don't have any specialist training in anti-terrorist and I've already got one suggestion that seems to have skipped everyone's mind... how about NOT leaving the barricades down? I mean that's how this all started, right? Because some idiot messed up and left some barricades down. ... but you apparently think that its better to leave the barricades down and just blow up the car...

There's also high-pressure hoses that could choke the car's engine. And yes, I've witnessed this technique first hand, I come from a country with a lot of riots and the cops just turn a water cannon on the car's exhaust. Shuts down the car like a charm.

They also missed the opportunity to hem her in at the round-about. They missed the opportunity to shoot to injure while she was parked in front of them... they missed about a dozen opportunities to resolve the situation non-lethally.

... and yet here we have someone who claims 20 years of experience PRAISING them? For what precisely? I mean you must have REALLY low expectations if you think their performance was exemplary.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Never said she was a terrorist...I said she could have been a terrorist. Now I really understand why your not in law enforcement. You jump to meaningless conclusions and backtrack often. First you say everyone else makes excuses and here you say you do

Yup, at the same time that you made up that she was a terrorist trying to get to Obama. If you can make up stuff so can I

They also missed the opportunity to hem her in at the round-about. They missed the opportunity to shoot to injure while she was parked in front of them... they missed about a dozen opportunities to resolve the situation non-lethally.

And in your own words, there's her time...but wait! She still doesn't stops for the police.

Where I'm from we have lost many lives to terrorists. We train and teach the best of best of the military from many countries. After turning her car from a vehicle that drove into the Capitol to a weapon after she went on her rampage with total disregard for law enforcement, people around the area, as well as her own, she had to be taken out.

Keep making excuses for her as you wish, but it was her that ultimately ended her life.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 09, 2013 - 12:36AM JST Never said she was a terrorist...I said she could have been a terrorist.

Double standards much? I do the same thing, suggest that she might have been on vacation (a far more reasonable and rational suggestion) and it gets treated like I just suggested she might be from Mars... but you get to claim she's a terrorist and I'm supposed to just accept that?

Now I really understand why your not in law enforcement. You jump to meaningless conclusions and backtrack often. First you say everyone else makes excuses and here you say you do

ROFL!!!! First, NAME what issue I backtracked on. I dare you, right NOW, or admit you're wrong.

Oh, wait, you're INCAPABLE of admitting you're wrong.

As for jumping to meaningless conclusions, you're 100% behind the theory that she's delusional, DESPITE the facts:

She was pulled in for a psych-eval by the local police some months before and given a clean bill of health (apart from the postpartum depression, which would NOT explain psychotic behaviour) She was being treated by a mental health professional who only found postpartum depression, no delusions or hallucinations.

That's 2 qualified medical opinions that she's sane and normal. Balanced against? Some allegations that she's crazy by her ex-boyfriend? .. and domestic disputed never have ulterior motives do they... oh, wait, they normally do!

Yet you persist in weighing the accusations of her ex-boyfriend against the opinion of two qualified medical professionals and yet somehow still believe that she's delusional.

... and you have the utter audacity to claim that I'm illogical? Take a long hard look at yourself mate.

And in your own words, there's her time...but wait! She still doesn't stops for the police.

Nonsense. The police never let up in pursuing and harassing her, giving her no time to calm down from her flight/fight state and re-evaluate. If they'd just given her 10 minutes without harassment to calm down this would all have been peacefully resolved.

Where I'm from we have lost many lives to terrorists. We train and teach the best of best of the military from many countries. After turning her car from a vehicle that drove into the Capitol to a weapon after she went on her rampage with total disregard for law enforcement, people around the area, as well as her own, she had to be taken out.

Rampage? No. She fled several scenes where people were aggressively approaching her with firearms. Not once did she AIM for anyone, in fact in the video you can see her swerving to avoid the police. She was just trying to get away.

Keep making excuses for her as you wish, but it was her that ultimately ended her life.

No, what ended her life was the complete and utter incompetence of the secret service agent who left the barriers down then failed to act properly when someone took a wrong turn down the road, followed by endless bungling and incompetence from the DC police.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Readers, please stop bickering. We will not make this request again. Please focus your comments on what is in the story and not at each other.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

you're 100% behind the theory that she's delusional, DESPITE the facts:

Regardless if she was depressed or bippolar, delusional, or even on her period, how she acted is how she acted in an area of high security. Those are my words Read again.. Never said she was delusional. It has bearing on the outcome.

It's sad that she acted in a way that got herself killed.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

TheDevilsAssistantOct. 09, 2013 - 12:36PM JST Regardless if she was depressed or bippolar, delusional, or even on her period, how she acted is how she acted in an area of high security. Those are my words Read again.. Never said she was delusional. It has bearing on the outcome.

One cannot put the blame for how she acted on Miriam Carey. She reacted the same way anyone would to a set of circumstances. A man leapt out in front of her car with a gun drawn and tried to block her exit. She escaped, only to be surrounded by cars with more men pointing guns at her. Then they opened fire at her, despite her just trying to escape. She had a young baby in the car and she was acting in a manner consistent with a mother defending her child.

The media are desperate to make her out as insane, but she acted as you or I would under the same circumstances.

It's sad that she acted in a way that got herself killed.

She didn't "get herself killed". That phrasing implies that it was 100% her fault. The police officer who fired at an obviously unarmed and upset mother with her child in the car takes the blame for that. The secret service agent who was so stupid he forgot to identify himself and then leapt out in front of her car takes the blame for starting this sequence of events.

Miriam Carey reacted in a sane fashion to an insane series of events, a series of events perpetrated on her by a macho "shoot first and let God sort out the rest" culture that permeates U.S. society, particularly law enforcement.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Frungy

The media are desperate to make her out as insane, but she acted as you or I would under the same circumstances.

TheDevilsAssistant has told you repeatedly that he wouldn't, and neither would I. I would think that the vast majority of people would NOT act as Carey did. What's really sad is that IF Carey was sober, sane, not psychotic, and not under the influence of any psychotropic medication, as you keep claiming she was, despite acting the way she did, then she's a prime candidate for the Darwin Awards. At least if she had been mentally ill and medicated we would have some reason to have sympathy for her.

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USNinJapan2Oct. 09, 2013 - 01:59PM JST TheDevilsAssistant has told you repeatedly that he wouldn't, and neither would I.

Since you've never been in that situation I don't know how you can state that with such certainty.

I would think that the vast majority of people would NOT act as Carey did.

Actually if they were rational they would.

What's really sad is that IF Carey was sober, sane, not psychotic, and not under the influence of any psychotropic medication, as you keep claiming she was, despite acting the way she did, then she's a prime candidate for the Darwin Awards. At least if she had been mentally ill and medicated we would have some reason to have sympathy for her.

Here's the decision matrix, please point out when she made the error:

Unidentified man leaps out holding a gun, do you: a. Stop the car and surrender to the mugger b. Flee c. Get out of the car and pound him into mush

Only an utter idiot would choose a or c, so b is the sensible option. If the secret service agent had identified himself then this would be completely different... but he DIDN'T identify himself, so she made the logical decision.

From this point on things snowball. She may have realised once the cops started chasing her that the man she took for a mugger was actually someone important, but the police weren't giving her much space to surrender and talk stuff out. Instead of giving her a little space they tightened the circle around her car, approached her from behind, and generally maximised their threat value against an unarmed, scared woman. They consistently and remorselessly escalated the situation without giving the woman even a few seconds to think through her options, keeping her constantly reacting on instinct. An analysis of her actions shows very clearly that she was constantly kept reacting. If she'd just been given a few minutes to calm down this would have ended very differently.

Any idiot with even basic hostage negotiation training knows that the situation was bungled from start to finish. Only someone without any training or law enforcement expertise would claim otherwise.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The media are desperate to make her out as insane, but she acted as you or I would under the same circumstances.

But you're going to say that since "you've never been in that situation you don't know how USNinJapan, can say that with such certainty?" Unbelievable...

0 ( +1 / -1 )

'This is not a routine highway or city traffic stop. It is simply not that,' Gainer said yesterday. 'The milieu under which we're operating at the United States Capitol and I suspect at the White House and at icons up in New York is an anti-terrorism approach, and that is a difference with a huge, huge distinction.'

No, it looks like me and USNinJapan choose the rational, real life scenarioregarding this instance.

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TheDevilsAssistantOct. 09, 2013 - 05:46PM JST No, it looks like me and USNinJapan choose the rational, real life scenarioregarding this instance.

Gainer is quite right, this isn't some routine highway or city traffic stop, because under those circumstances some lunatic with a gun doesn't leap out in front of your car, and you aren't then pursued by dozens of police who seem intent on shooting you.

As for anti-terrorism, I don't think that the U.S. has the foggiest clue what anti-terrorism is. The U.K. dealt with IRA terrorism for decades, without at any point having to suspend its citizens' rights or kill mothers for the "crime" of accidentally entering a restricted area when some idiot left the gates down.

If this HAD been a terrorist the police would have taken massive casualties and the terrorist would have accomplished their goals with ease. The measures in place were pathetic and badly thought out. They JUST BARELY managed to stop the terrifying threat of an unarmed mom with a 1 year old child in a standard car... wow, what heroes!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Gainer is quite right,

Thank you! Finally you get it!

I'm done here...

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TheDevilsAssistantOct. 09, 2013 - 07:17PM JST Thank you! Finally you get it! I'm done here...

So glad you agree with the entire contents of my last post. Isn't it nice when people are nice?

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Another summary street execution by the US police.

I agree with Frungy wholeheartedly.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

In the US law enforcement community and criminal court system a vehicle /Car is considered a weapon. It becomes a weapon when driven in an assualt or aggressive manner that could injure or kill another human being. So I agree, the killing of this woman is tragic indeed. However, the police are justified in stopping the Driver. That's, Just the Way it IS...

1 ( +2 / -1 )

MrGeeeOct. 12, 2013 - 02:29AM JST In the US law enforcement community and criminal court system a vehicle /Car is considered a weapon. It becomes a weapon when driven in an assualt or aggressive manner that could injure or kill another human being. So I agree, the killing of this woman is tragic indeed. However, the police are justified in stopping the Driver. That's, Just the Way it IS...

Citizens are also entitled to use lethal force and lethal weapons in self-defense... like when some plainclothes idiot secret service agent leaps out with a gun but without identifying himself... That's, Just the Way it IS... (sic.)

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

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