Olympic torch concludes topsy-turvy tour of San Francisco

"“It was and is and will forever be part of China.”

Does it ever dawn on any C-supporters that only Tibetans have the right to make that determination? What if the Japanese had won WWII and stayed in China? How would they feel if a Japanese said that "China was and is and will forever be part of Japan"? Silly, isn't it?

In an interview broadcast Wednesday on the VRT television network in his native Belgium, Rogge warned that pushing China too hard on Tibet and human rights would be counterproductive.

“If you know China, you know that mounting the barricades and using tough language will have the opposite effect,” he said. “China will close itself off from the rest of the world, which, don’t forget it, it has done for some 2,000 years.”

That is incorrect, the PRC won't be isolated b/c of several multilateral forums in the region. APEC, EAS, ARF to name a few. Isolation is very hard, and most countries do wish to trade w/ the PRC. No country can stand up to intense scrutiny for they all have strengths and weaknesses.

The west only makes it worse for Tibetans in China like it does to many other countries. Tibetans are Chinese though.

One Tibetan told us, when he sit on a bus, no one wants to sit besides him.

So stupid!

How are Tibetans Chinese? They speak a different language, are ethnically different, and have a different religion.

The unelected, fascist government in Beijing considers them to be Chinese citizens, and imposes it's views using lethal force, but that doesn't make Tibetans Chinese, any more than the Japanese invading China made the Chinese people Japanese.

So stupid!

Nonsense. I think the SFPD handled it quite well; the route was reconfigured without advance notice to thwart possible violence between those who turned out to show support for China and those who came to support the Tibetans.

My question is, if it's going to continue in "an undisclosed location", how will we know where to go? Will Dick Cheney be there too? He's always being whisked away to that same place, "an undisclosed location!"

gmygmygmy: If Tibetans are Chinese, then why wont Chinese sit next to them on the bus? How do they even know that they are Tibetan? Your so funny

How are Tibetans Chinese? They speak a different language, are ethnically different, and have a different religion.

There are 56 ethnics with different cultures, languages, and religions in China. Chinese isn't even ethnicity.

I think people like gmygmygmy think that if they say something enough times it will make it true.

gmygmygmy... "So stupid!". I can only presume you are speaking about the majority of your posts regarding this subject. The Chinese government represents the antithesis of the spirit of the Olympics. The fact that some people, who live in truly free countries, like the U.K., France, and the U.S., are choosing to use their rights to point out China's hypocracy is NOT stupid. It is freedom of thought and expression -- so long as it is peaceful. Were the thousands of pro-China demonstrators in San Francisco also "stupid"? Or does that knife only cut one way?

i especially liked the way 200 chinese students mobbed 2 people in a car. 100 on 1 are good odds arent they?

politicians and their games

the olympic games is a sporting event, not a place to make a political stand. the tension between china and tibet has got nothing to do with it. politicians, celebrities and other organizations that are boycotting the 2008 games should learn to take their issues somewhere else. by the way these are people who are 99% serving their own self-interest (publicity? political gain? polishing their 'righteousness'?) isn't it time to respect the ability of sports to bring together people from around the world? think about the history the olympic games, by the name of Zeus. to the sportsman/woman who are taking part in the boycott, u should be more ashamed of urself. what do u really know about the history of china and tibet? are u just doing it because 'everyone else' is doing it? too many people acting like they know what they're talking about. wake up. we are all concerned about the riots and violence that's happening in tibet and china, and yes we should bring about debate and change. will boycotting the 2008 games solve anything? we'll probably only contribute to the spirit of the games diminishing. and soon, the olympic games will be replaced with debates and hot issues if we allow this to happen. what to expect in london 2012? ties between the UK and the middle east? boring. plus nobody cares. if u think i'm wrong, u are wrong.

When I read this story, all I could think was, "What are cowards are Mayor Newsome and the Frisco City Administration!"

I can't say that I'm surprised that the Cowardly Mayor of San Francisco, Gavin Newsome, supported and even choreographed the Olympic Torch Run Route. Why did he change it? Why didn't he stick to the original plan? Why is it that militant Homosexuals are allowed free passes to desecrate Churches in San Francisco, but when the Olympic torch is supposed to run a route through the city, the Mayor changes it out of fear of demonstration? Why is it homosexuals can freely demonstrate against a church or two, even so far as going in and m,ocking a service, but the Olympic Torch is off-grounds for those who wish to demonstrate against Red China's hedgemony over Tibet, influence in the Sudan against the Darfur Region, and support of the Government in burma, and unelected military juhnta that is basically enslaving the people (sounds a lot like Red China!)?

I think it was very gutsy for the one runner, who pulled a Tibetan Flag out of her sleeve, to run with the Tibetan Flag and the Torch (albeit for a short, short while, thanks to the SFPD and Chiniese Officials). Red China needs to realize that this Tibet-Darfur-Human-Rights-Issue thing is not going to go away, let alone go away quietly....

Crustacean is right (despite using the Dutch "u" instead of the English "you"): boycotting the olympics won't really help matters. We should boycott Chinese-made goods instead.

boycotting goods never works, because noone even knows you are trying to say something. Olympics has always been about politics ever since it included more than one nation. In fact, back in the old days, it was poilitical too, a way to show off your superiority. I dont know how much help all this will do for tibet, but it sure is getting up the CCPs nose, so it seems to be working in some respect. The fact that its getting a bite shows that the protests are serving a purpose. And the fact that the CCP made promises along the lines of improving thier practices, and attitudes towards human(and animal) rights, so that they would be allowed to host the olympics. Now that they've got the Olympics they just do what they usually do anyway. The IOC should be pissed that they didnt stick to the promises. China itself has boycotted previous olympic games for political reasons before, so where do they get off saying that the Olympics is not a platfrom for politics? I can see it now, they are going to get some foreign nationals protest in Beijing during the games, the local forces will lose thier rag and shoot or beat the crap out of them, and then all hell will break loose. I dont know if it will help anything, true, it might even make it worse, and make China more beligerant than ever. But it seems like the only way to voice distaste over the CCPs actions, outside of threats, trade sanctions, and actual intervention, which I also doubt would do much good for anyone. So scrote, im not sure, but you may be right, just for this reason: NO matter what anyone says, China is still going to stick fingers in ears and go "lalalalalalala"

I salute the brave protestors in San Francisco, who once again prevented the Communist Chinese Government from pretending that they were normal. Tibet and the Tibetan people must be set free from the shackles of Chinese rule. The Communist unelected and undemocratic quango Government of Beijing must realise that the world is no longer going to stand idly by and pretend that all is normal and well while they continue to deprive their own citizens, and those of the people of Tibet, of basic human rights. They are thugs, and I am disappointed that the US Government allowed their Blue-suited thug patrol to raom the streets of San Francisco. I cant wait for the flame to arrive in nagano so that I can join the protestors there, too.

The protesters weren't simply addressing, or dismissing, the plight of Tibetans. Among their ranks were others with grievances against the PRC:

Festooned in maroon robes, in honor of the Buddhist monks silenced in Burma, the excited and angry activists wore yellow banners pinned to their robes that read "China's policy = Burma's misery," and chanted, "Boycott the Olympics" and "Free, free, free Burma." "China sells billions of dollars of arms to Burma, while people struggle to live even hand to mouth daily," Than said. Protesting in front of the Olympic flame was his chance to bring Burma's plight to the televised world.

Wearing a robe around his neck like a cape, the charismatic Than caucused with the pro-Burma leaders, plotting how to evade the cops lining the route in front of them when the torch passed. At 1:30 p.m., after the time the torch was scheduled to leave AT&T Park, protesters surged into the street, past the police barricades, marching and chanting, euphoric that they'd evaded the cops, and blocked the torch's route. [But they didn't...]

"We felt it was in everyone's best interest that we augment the route," San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom told the San Francisco Chronicle. "I believe people were afforded the right to protest and support the torch. You saw that in the streets. They were not denied the ability to protest."...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/04/10/torch/

Balancing order with the right to dissent is an ongoing act which nations like China don't have to deal with. Even in the most open, pluralistic societies tolerance for dissent is never absolute. If it were, after all, there would be little to forestall anarchy.

Though there was some grumbling about the game of hide-and-seek with the torch, I think the city made the right call given the numbers of protestors crammed into a small space that was shared with those for whom it was a normal work day.

qmyqmyqmy,

Tibetans are Chinese though.

Most Tibetans would disagree with you, I think. This is why they are protesting. Calling a group Chinese just because they were invaded 50 or so years ago would be the same as calling Chinese Japanese for the same reason, wouldn't it?

Rogge is to give more details at a news conference Friday, when the IOC’s executive board is to discuss Friday whether to end the remaining international legs of the relay after San Francisco because of widespread protest. The torch is scheduled to travel to Buenos Aires, Argentina, and then to a dozen other countries before arriving in China on May 4. The Olympics begin Aug. 8.

I personally would like to see the torch relay continue to see to what extent these protests extend from the G-8. The riots and protests does not seem as it appears, b/c I received 60-90 days prior warning to this from Agency personnel - unusual, and it has forced me to get my copy of the Pentagon Papers out.

"Boycott the Olympics" and "Free, free, free Burma."

Betzee, Burma has much less oil than Sudan, so the west is not interested.

If anyone is interested in background to US/Tibet relations, this book goes into an aspect of it that may still be relevant. As stated several months ago, all analyzes' indicators point to the Indian Ocean, so for Tibet to crop up is no surprise. This is a book I am planning to read in the future.

The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet+

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html

Among the supporters of those pro-Tibet protestors included the Tibet Justice Center (aka International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet) in Berkeley CA, which is one of the oldest Tibet support group in the United States. They provide detailed report of human right abuses in Tibet that caused the grievances of the Tibetan protestors in San Francisco. Their investigations revealed "large-scale introduction of prostitution in Tibet in recent years, which is having a devastating effect on Tibetan culture." The report says "There is evidence that condoned or supported prostitution is being instituted in areas with great cultural or religious significance for Tibetans, such as the streets immediately below the Potala Palace in Lhasa."

http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/women/v.html

This type of insult to cultural and historical significance always causes utmost outrage to the local people. It is worth recalling that an opening of an American coffee shop in the Chinese Imperial Palace (Forbidden City) caused massive anger in Beijing.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/FOOD/news/12/11/china.starbucks.reut/

Given the absence of democracy in Tibet, those protests are the only means to make a political stand for the protestors. If this means of venting Tibetan’s anger were denied, it might cause more serious disaster in Lhasa.

I love writers who don't bother to read what they've written:

At least one torchbearer decided to show her support for Tibetan independence during her moment in the spotlight. After being passed the Olympic flame, Majora Carter pulled out a small Tibetan flag that she had hidden in her shirt sleeve.

“The Chinese security and cops were on me like white on rice, it was no joke,” said Carter, 41, who runs a nonprofit organization in New York. “They pulled me out of the race, and then San Francisco police officers pushed me back into the crowd on the side of the street.”

Although torchbearers in other cities have complained of aggressive behavior by paramilitary police in blue track suits sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame, there was no evidence of problems in California.

Once again the Chinese seem to have shot themselves in the foot. For the 2008 Olympics, Beijing has extended the torch's tour to its longest journey in history as a way to symbolize China's arrival as a nation of world-class stature in the twenty first century. Instead it's given the regime's critics around the world the opportunity to shine the spotlight on exactly the things China would like to hide.

The torch relay binds Chinese both at home and abroad tigher together

Those two groups of Chinese people fighting each other in San Francisco look very tightly bound together.

Peace

Looks good, my previous posts for the past few months is being confirmed and the info I am receiving from US Agencies is being interpreted fairly correct. Target: Indian Ocean

http://www.atimes.com/Atimes/China/JC26Ad02.Html

Richard M Bennett, intelligence and security consultant is a REAL solid source.

IOC should not regret giving the 2008 Olympics to the PRC, the game plan in play has adapted to include the Olympics b/c it exists.

San Francisco had the benefit of seeing what could happen and planned accordingly. The PR battle between the Chinese and the Tibetans continues in their respective efforts to portray themselves as the victims and the other side as the agressor.

To this end, a doctored photo of the presumably ethnic Tibet protestor who grabbed the handicapped torch bearer in Paris in now circulating online. It shows him tra-la-la on a trail in an obviously pro-China crowd in the garb he would later be photographed in engaging in violence in an action wildly condemned.

As an American, it amused me that the same folks with excoriated Dan Rather for being duped by forgeries bought into this hook, line, and sinker and, moreover, condemned the press for not picking up on it (since it pointed the finger back at the Chinese).

Watch out for more disinformation, from both sides. The stakes go ever higher as the torch relay winds toward India and ultimately through Tibet itself.