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Palestinian president warns of 'religious war'

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Great. Now the two sides can get in an uproar about something else instead of actually talking to each other about peace.

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Where have I been...... I thought there already was a religious war going.

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The 'holly land', huh? That is some start to your JT posting career.

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justice4plstine: How can the Jews be invaders in their own country? Where do you think Jesus was from? Was he an "invader" from Europe and the USA? The Jewish people have just as much claim to be the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine as the "armless, helpless Palestinians" who fire rockets at Israel towns and openly call for genocide.

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Justice4palestine:

" The only heritage the Jews have is in Europe and the USA. The holly land belongs to its indigenous inhabitants, the Palestinians. "

Come again? The Jewish presence in the area precedes even the founding of islam by 2000 years. Muslim Arabs have been trying to erase any traces of that history whereever they can. Renaming muslim arabs as "Palestinians" is only part of that campaign. The Jews are the original inhabitants of Palestine, i.e. the original "Palestinians".

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WilliB: " The Jews are the original inhabitants of Palestine, i.e. the original "Palestinians"."

So why don't the Jews just revert to the name Palestinians and everyone get along? My guess is they would take offense.

Really, though, I would have thought there has been a holy war going on there for quite some time.

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So why don't the Jews just revert to the name Palestinians and everyone get along? My guess is they would take offense.

Actually, during the mandate both sides seemed to take offense at the Palestinian label. The identity of the Palestinian Arabs and a Palestinian nation really took hold after 1967. That is not to say their grievances did not exist up to that point. It is just that after 1948 and up to 1967 they referred to themselves as refugees.

Anyway, these moves by both sides to increase tensions on both sides is counter-productive. The two sides should be talking peace. Let them decide details of the negotiations in negotiations for a change.

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What happened to all that talk about how secular the Palestinians are?

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Hamas and Hezbollah happened. Now the Palestinian Authority don't want to be left out.

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WilliB, the real Jews looked just like everybody else in the area 2000 years ago. The typical Israeli today looks European. They are invaders. Their connection to the Jews of Roman times are tenuous at best.

Scrote, what other people of the world are you going to hand 2000 year old land claims to? None I expect. What makes the Jews different?

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HeyLars,

Maybe you should take a trip to the Middle East. The typical Israeli today or anytime looks pretty much the same as the typical Palestinian today or anytime.

However, this is beside the point. The point is Israel exists and the Palestinians should get cracking on negotiations instead of jumping up and down about this symbolic designation on the part of Israel.

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kinniku, you ask the Palestians to negotiate at gun point. Some things are so obvious they need no negotation. But the Israelis won't take the gun out of the Palestinian mouth. And this after pointing the gun at their back to herd them in areas to be "managed".

Half of the Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi and white, and they were the clear majority back when the Palestinians were robbed and corraled. Today's situation is a little different, and I should have said the typical Israeli with power, influence, and respect looks like a white guy and they came from outside not all that long ago. Sorry for the error.

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HeyLars,

In order for there to be peace. Both sides must negotiate. This is true whether one or both sides think things are obvious. I am not interested in your racial profiling or whom you think or Jews or not. However, both most Israelis and Palestinians are 'white'. Your "clarification" does not change this.

The fact is neither side should be talking about wars, religious or otherwise. They should be talking about peace.

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both most Israelis and Palestinians are 'white'" Most I met were not. If they were walking down the street, I'd think they were like me. Oh, I am sure the KKK could care less about them looking white anyways.

Anyway, I brought this up the other day, what Jews look like today is mostly because they were kicked out and scattered. Its not really their fault.

As for a religious war, isn't the Jewish faith the root of the muslim religion as it is Christian? I'm atheist so don't get on me. Its a question.

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The Palestinians are fooling themselves if they think that there could be a negotaited settlement to their tragedy. The Jews have no plans of relenquishing one square inch of the land they stole. The land that was stolen by force can only be liberated by force. Granted the Palestinians have no F 18 Super Hornets or F 16 fighter Jets or Apache helicopters or M1 A1 tanks; what they need to do is secretly aquire weopns that can be used to pulverize their Satanic enemy. That is the only way to liberate stolen land. The so called Road maps to peace will only yield more dead bodies and more stolen land for the Palestinians. Look what happened since the signing of the Oslo agreement in 1993. The evil creatures from New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and other locations that the media calls "Jewish Settlers" has stolen more land than ever. They terrorise Palestinians on daily basis in Hebron and elsewhere in Palestine.

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the Palestinians have no F 18 Super Hornets or F 16 fighter Jets or Apache helicopters or M1 A1 tanks;

Thank goodness.

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justice4plstine,

Palestinians have no peaceful choice except negotiating for peace. Israel has already made peace with Egypt and Jordan and has traded land for peace that lasts until today. Israel also left Gaza and the Palestinian Authority was controlling the border with Egypt for the first time in the history of the Palestinians.

Negotiations that continue to a peaceful resolution are the only answer to the Palestinians' problems and the only solution in which they get their own nation.

This bickering that we see here is counterproductive to this. So is racism.

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skip,

I mean they are racially 'white'. The top PA figures and the top Israeli figures they are also light-skinned. There is a difference between being darker because of naturally born pigment and because of the sun. Look at Japanese, top politicians are lighter-skin than their farmer counterparts. That does not mean they are any less Asian. It does not even matter. Racially, most Palestinians and Israelis are basically the same.

That is one of the reasons that this fighting between the two people is so meaningless. Hebron is important culturally to both sides. However, two nations living side by side in peace is even more important.

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As for a religious war, isn't the Jewish faith the root of the muslim religion as it is Christian? I'm atheist so don't get on me. Its a question.

Yes, you are essentially correct. In fact, this sticks in some people's craws so much that they attempt to claim Jewish people are not 'real Jews' to escape this reality.

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kinniku、what is there to negotiate? I say Israel should get the gun out of Palestine's mouth, people like you complain because Palestine has a sharp nail file under the table. I say "the gun, the gun!" and you say "but the file, the file!"

There is nothing to negotiate. Israel is not giving up its control of Palestine until the Palestinians declare independence and force it militarily, something which should not even be necessary. Even negotiating for it should not be necessary, but "the gun, the gun!"

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kinniku, you would have to be blind to not be able to tell the class of Israelis that control Israel and make up half of its population from the average Palestinian even if they were naked. Israel has had a lot of trouble with race and racial profiling is a hot topic in Israel. The struggle between Israel and Palestine is political, racial and religious all at the same time.

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The struggle between Israel and Palestine is political, racial and religious all at the same time.

True. The Muslim Arabs are an intolerant people, what can you say.

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Helter Skelter, The religous right now runnin g Israel have admitted to removing arabs from East Jerusleum to make it a Jewish controlled area.

The arabs maybe intolerant, but who can blame them after decades of US sponsored tyranny? Reminds me of the US sponsored IRA.

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The arabs maybe intolerant...

Nearly a million Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Muslim Arab countries. Muslim Arabs are continuing their genocide of Christians in Northern Africa. So I can't get too worked up about some Muslim Arabs who refused to pay rent for years while living E. Jerusalem finally being evicted.

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stevecpfc,

The religous right now runnin g Israel have admitted to removing arabs from East Jerusleum to make it a Jewish controlled area.

When has the Israeli government 'admitted' any such thing? This seems to be the second time you claim the Israeli government says things they don't say.

Reminds me of the US sponsored IRA.

I don't know about US sponsored IRA. However, you are correct that there are many, many similarities between Hamas and the IRA. If the Palestinian Authority continues on this hysterical path, they will also share the similarities.

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"The land that was stolen by force can only be liberated by force. Granted the Palestinians have no F 18 Super Hornets or F 16 fighter Jets or Apache helicopters or M1 A1 tanks; what they need to do is secretly aquire weopns that can be used to pulverize their Satanic enemy. That is the only way to liberate stolen land."

Are you serious? It's ridiculous ideas like this that lead to more pointless bloodshed. And Satanic enemy? I'd say the people who are walking around blowing other people up because they don't follow the same religion are the Satanic ones. Innocent people on both sides are suffering-- why bring about further conflict with more weapons? kinniku is right, they need to negotiate. But I have a feeling that they won't, as long as people remain intolerant-- and I mean everyone, Jews and Muslims. I weep for the Middle East.

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HeyLars,

You have obviously not met many (any?) Israelis and Palestinians. They are both mostly caucasians. Anyway, as kokorcloud correctly points out, voices calling for more violence are not the answer to the problems of the Middle East. Calm negotiations are. This 'religious war' is just another diversion from the road the Middle East should be on toward peace.

justic4plstine,

If you want justice, you should seek it through peaceful negotiations. Violence merely begets violence.

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I'd say the people who are walking around blowing other people up because they don't follow the same religion are the Satanic ones.

I think that is exactly what he/she was saying. If you recall, over 1000 innocent, helpless civilians were murdered a little over one year ago.

Palestinians have no peaceful choice except negotiating for peace.

You keep on bringing this up. Palestinians have tried many times to negociate real peace, it is Israel who refuses to negotiate. You refuse to believe all the sources (many Israeli ones) that Norman Finkelstein brings up. I recommend you have a listen to an interview with Norman Finkelstein and Shlomo Ben-Ami (he was there, negotiating for Israel). You can find it on YouTube.

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If you recall, over 1000 innocent, helpless civilians were murdered a little over one year ago.

I knew Hamas was bent on extensive retribution and carried out a shockingly large number of assassinations but I had no idea they killed 1000 Palestinians - - some thanks for being voted into power,eh? Amazing, is it not? It makes you pause, makes you really wonder about the psychopathologies to be found in Gaza...

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wow! the way the peace lover expressing for something they disagree is "WAR".

well, no surprise.

anyway all religion came from that part of the hell always at war with one another, why serious?

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sabiwabi,

Interesting. You seem to be claiming Judaism is 'satanic' somehow. That does not seem like a very constructive approach to peace in the Middle East.

I keep bringing up negotiations because they are the absolute only answer to the conflict in the Middle East. It is not a matter of refusing to believe sources that claim the Palestinians have been willing to negotiate for peace in the past. It is the claim that in the 70's and 80's they have been willing and Israel has been the one to back away from negotiations or have somehow scuttled peace talks when the Palestinians were willing to negotiate with which I disagree. In the examples, the people you have provided give, it is in fact the Palestinian side that was unwilling to negotiate for a real and true peace between Israel and Palestinians.

BTW, President Clinton was there in 2000 and he made it quite clear it was Arafat that walked away from talks.

Now, from this article, we can see a bunch of hysteria again when the focus should be on negotiations. Both sides will blame each other, but nothing positive really gets accomplished.

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I think that is exactly what he/she was saying. If you recall, over 1000 innocent, helpless civilians were murdered a little over one year ago.

Are you sure? It sounded to me like he called an entire religion/race of people Satanic because they're Jewish. The point is not in the numbers. Whether it be 1 or 1000 or 100,000, what's wrong is wrong. Those who innocently killed civilians for no reason other than to force their beliefs on the world at large are the ones who deserve this title. That's all I'm saying.

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BTW, President Clinton was there in 2000 and he made it quite clear it was Arafat that walked away from talks.

And he never lies? And he is impartial? Just listen to Norman Finkelstein and Shlomo Ben-Ami on YouTube. Ben-Aami was there, negotiating for Israel, and he could not refute Finkelstein's points.

It sounded to me like he called an entire religion/race of people Satanic because they're Jewish.

He said that? Unless I missed something, I'm pretty sure he was refering to the zionist regime who has been since 1967 illegally occupying Palestinian land. Israel has been treating the Palestinian people worst than cattle for a very very long time. They keep the Gazans fenced-in under terrible conditions and when they react, Israelslaughters over 1000 innocent helpless civilians who have no where to go. If that is not Satanic, I don't know what is.

They do not represent Judaism or the Jewish people. If anything, their ACTIONS represent Satan.

Moderator: All readers back on topic please. Posts that do not refer to what is in the story will be removed. No further references to Satan, Norman Finkelstein or Shlomo Ben-Ami please.

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You know. It is interesting to read what you write. According to you nobody every lies unless you say they are lying and nobody ever tells the truth unless you say they are telling the truth. Anyway, Arafat left the negotiations first. He could have stayed. He didn't. Those are the facts. It is impossible to claim a willingness to negotiate while at the same time leaving the negotiating table for good. President Clinton was there and, yes, since he was not part of the Israeli group or the Palestinian group, I would say he is impartial in this regard. Clinto wanted peace between the two sides. That is why he worked hard to get them together.

This talk of comparing Jews or Israel or both with Satan are almost as ridiculous as the 'religious war' said to be brewing in this article.

I am sick of hearing people claim there is no point in negotiating when negotiations have brought peace between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. Obviously negotiations work. The only reason I can see for protesting against negotiations is to continue the status quo and to continue to deny Israel's right to exist. That is of no benefit to the Palestinians or to anyone in the long run.

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BTW, justice4plstine clearly mentions 'Jews' throughout his diatribe. One would have to be blind not to clearly see it.

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justice4plstine was clearly referring to those Jews who stole Palestinian land. Playing the "antisemite" card is not a good sign, it usually indicates you have nothing to support your argument.

I am sick of hearing people claim there is no point in negotiating

Nobody is saying that. I'm just saying that Israel has shown time and time again that it is not interested in negotiating seriously. The MSM will constantly repeat things like "natural expansion" and "disputed" this and that. But these things are not disputed, the International Court of Justice unanimously concluded that any land beyond the pre-1967 border is Palestinian and that the wall MUST be dismantled and the occupiers MUST leave. The entire world agrees with that except Israel and the governments of US and a few tiny tiny Pacific Islands.

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You really should read before you claim what people say.

The only heritage the Jews have is in Europe and the USA. The holly land belongs to its indigenous inhabitants, the Palestinians. "

justice4plstine was making no distinction.

You have said over and over that there is no point in negotiating. You claim Israel has never been interested in negotiating for peace. However, that completely ignores the fact that Israel in fact has negotiated successfully for peace twice trading land for that peace. That peace continues until today. You also ignore the fact that Israel left the Gaza area and the Palestinians controlled not only Gaza but the border between Gaza and Egypt for the first time in their history. So, the claim that Israel has never made attempts at peace or that they have never been interested in negotiating for peace is incorrect and is historically shown to be so.

I agree there should be a Palestinian state as a result of a true and real peace. The Palestinians need to be willing to negotiate and discuss it. So far, they are not. They should be and they need to be. This fighting over nothing and claiming religious wars gets them nowhere.

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Just to add, it is also clearly the opinions of HeyLars and justice4plstine that there is no point negotiations. That is clearly what they have been saying in this thread.

It is the same mindless calls to violence that have cursed the region for decades. Israel and Palestine must look toward the future and stop obsessing about the past. These silly squabbles over symbols only postpone peace.

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justice4plstine was making no distinction.

Was that addressed to me? If so, how is that related to anything? What's your point.

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You wrote he made a specific distinction. I was merely pointing out that in this thread he did not make that distinction. I am not the only one on this thread to notice this.

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Oh my! Just reread his post and then reread mine, and repeat that action until you understand it...

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There will always be people who will claim there is no point in negotiating. However, it is the opinion that there is no point in negotiating that is pointless. As is this in-fighting about a non-issue like this one described in the article. They need to talk to each other and do it now.

BTW, we have all read the comments in question once and again. Perhaps you misunderstand his meaning as some of them have been deleted. (Although I am not sure how you can misunderstand 'the Jews' peppered througout) However, it was and is as we decribed it.

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BTW, we have all read the comments in question once and again.

"We have all"? Are you referring to the various IDs you use to pat yourself on the back? How would you know that you have all reread the comments.

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The subject is Israel and the Palestinians and their silly argument about a symbolic appointment that will help neither Israel nor Palestine have a happy future.

Negotiations will bring about that happy, peaceful future for both nations. This kind of squabbling will not.

Please stop dragging conversations into unrelated tangents and/or accusations.

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Please stop dragging conversations into unrelated tangents and/or accusations.

Indeed, just don't play the "Anti-semite" card.

Anyway, our disagreement seems to be centered on the lack of negotiations, right? I believe that the Israelis don't want to negotiate seriously, supporting my belief with (among other things) a discussion by people very familiar with the negotiations. You basically repeat the mainstream view that Israel sincerely wants to negotiate and the Palestinians do not. It seems that we will never come to an agreement on that issue.

But regardless of whose fault it is that negotiations have failed. It remains a fact that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land.

The UNSC and even the International Court of Justice have ruled that the land taken in 1967 belongs to the Palestinians; it is not disputed land, it is Occupied Palestinian Territory, it belongs to the Palestinians. This is not something that needs to be negotiated. Whether there are or aren't negotiations does not change these recognized facts.

The wall MUST be dismantled and Israel MUST leave the Palestinian territory it is illegally occupying. Not only is Israel still illegally occupying Palestinian land, it is expanding and stealing more.

The international community tolerates all this instead of forcing Israel to return to its pre-1967 border through sanctions and if necessary military force.

The Palestinians have every right to be very upset and angry about this, its been going on for a very long time. And they have every right to be even more angry by Israel’s plans to recognize a disputed West Bank shrine as one of its own national heritage sites.

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I am not repeating a mainstream view. I am repeating the fact that Israel has negotiated for peace and those negotiations successfully lead to land for peace deals that have continued for decades. This is a factual history that can be measured that shows Israel's history of negotiating for peace.

Right now, it is the Palestinians who are refusing to enter negotiations, not Israel. This is a fact. It does not matter if past negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have failed. That is no excuse for not entering and continuing negotiations until a reasonable solution for both sides is found.

All of the qualifications and demands you have put in your post above are for the negotiating table, not for before it.

Palestinians jumping up and down at every symbolic action instead of actually negotiating is completely counterproductive. Those that encourage such actions are encouraging a lack of real progress. Palestinians need to focus on negotiations and not let the voices of distractions get in their way.

Lastly, I did not play any 'anti-semite' card. A poster bleated on about 'the Jews' this and 'the Jews' that. It was inappropriate and those who supported the posts were rightly chastised about their behaviour by myself and other posters (who have completely different posting histories from myself, as opposed to two people bleating on about 'the Jews' who seem to have signed up and first posted on this thread) .

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"religious war"

That's the best kind of war, isn't it?

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