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Palin defends terrorist comment against Obama

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Palin at her most appallin'. I betcha this won't play even to the much insulted Joe Sixpack.

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SezWho2- The final nail in your beloveds coffin. Hahaha.

His past catches up, as i stated earlier. Mixing with terrorists will not get you elected in my country.

Palin was right to reveal his sordid secret. No patriot can vote for him now. He has lost the faith of all decent Americans.

Palin who has been mocked by some here, has shown that electing Obama would lead to the end of the US as we know it.

I do not want my country to become a base for terrorists.

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Palin is incorrect when she says Obama "pals around with terrorists." She should have said he "was pals with a terrorist."

Serious lack of judgement by Obama. That, and his serious lack of judgement in continuing to attend hateful sermons at his church, and his lack of executive experience should disqualify him from being president.

Sez - Joe Sixpack has been much insulted?

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FandB - "Mixing with terrorists will not get you elected in my country"

I dunno... Obama is actually leading in the polls with a month to go...

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You gotta love this time of the year. "The Pot calls the kettle black" trying to hide its own black color. Its Halloween and all the skeletons are flying out of the closets.

Obama was 8 when Ayers tried to be a terrorist. If this guy was such a bad terrorist, why is the government allowing him to run around teaching university classes and be a community supporter. Its not like he's Bin Laden and can't be found or anything. As for pals? the guy held one dinner for Obama in 95.

Meanwhile McCain was one of the Keating Five when he was 58. McCain actively helped Keating with the Lincoln Savings and Loan scandal that cost 21,000 elderly people to lose their life savings and 747 banks to fail.

Gee, doesn't that sound familiar to what's going on now? McCain may have been allowed to continue to serve his terms in office, but there's a lot more association between these two than there is between Ayers and Obama.

But republicans like Sarah and McCain rarely bother with worrying about reality. To them, the Economy is strong, and the 159,000 lost jobs in September aren't important.

McCain has based his campaign on his claim that he vetoes any pork that crosses his desk, yet he helped add huge amounts of pork to the $700 BILLION dollar bailout of yet another savings and loan collapse. When asked about this about face, he shrugged and said that's the way it is in Washington. Apparently, old age has allowed him to forget what he promised before, or what he's doing again.

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The last desperate gasp of a losing campaign and losing ticket. When all else fails be negative.

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USAKuma- Whatever you say does not stop the fact that Obama has been a member of a church where anti US hatred was spewed, and he associated with a terrorist.

These are facts, and OBama is now finished, thank goodness to bad rubbish!

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"Thank goodness to bad rubbish." You must be referring to the mediocre (at best) Ms. Palin....

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This woman is so unappealing

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Good riddance to bad rubbish, perhaps?

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"why is the government allowing him to ( fomer Obama associate Bill Ayers ) to run around teaching university classes"

Incredible, isn't it? Well, the government also allows terrorists ( Ahmadinejad ) to come to New York to address the Useless Nations...

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maybe Palin is more evil than Hillary --> Hillary 2!

Pelosi seems too dumb to be evil. I wonder if she finally got her private jet added to this 1 Trillion pork bill?

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Now if Obama was a white man and running for president,would this be a nail in his political coffin.... What about this.... if GWB was a democrate instead of a Republican (same record and all) would Obama even be considered for the office? What if GWB was a great president and didnt mess up so much, then would Obama even be know at all in the political world...

Truthfully I have to say the situation has made him a candidate to most not his ability or his history.... Think about it, most of the Obama lovers where saying he is worthless and Hillary was the star not too long ago......

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"As for pals? the guy [Ayers] held one dinner for Obama in 95."

You are uninformed.

Barack Obama was hand-picked by the former terrorist William Ayers to help co-chair the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which had a budget of something like 150 million dollars and was set up to tackle the formidable challenges Chicago's public schools faced.

It basically represents the only record of what Obama has really done when given the responsibility of executive oversight for a project designed to produce results - improved academic performance; in other words, change.

He failed, and he failed Chicago school kids, throwing money into the most radical sorts of experiments, aimed not at actually educating but designed to buy votes.

Like the criminal ACORN group - which Obama is also closely tied to - it's the kind of stealth radicalizing dressed up "education" and "community organization" that Ayers and the aged, tenured socialists who dominate academia in Chicago and pretty much every major metropolis in the country specialize in.

Obama, around about 40 seconds into the video below, cites his experience on this board as one of the things that he believed at the time qualified him for political office in Illinois.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=D-45A6I-N5I

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Whatever you say does not stop the fact that Obama has been a member of a church where anti US hatred was spewed

Being critical of the U.S. is not "anti-U.S.". If you tell your son he is lazy and needs to get a job, does that mean you no longer love him?

and he associated with a terrorist.

Former terrorist, if you are inclined to believe he committed random acts of violence against innocent people. Or have those on the right forgotten all about forgiveness, time served, and how the law works in the United States (This ain't Saudi Arabia).

But let us take a look at the targets of Ayers. Were they innocent civilians? No, they were not. At the time he attacked police, those same police were they types to ride horseback into a peaceful MLK march and club black mothers on the head. At the time he attacked the Pentagon, those same people at the Pentagon were raining bombs and agent orange on Vietnam, a civil war we scarcely had any business in yet were there for over a decade despite wide popular protest.

What you do not seem to understand is that when protests are shut down and the will of the people ignored, its not democracy. When the people are shipped to war against their will and bull whipped for daring to protest, its not democracy. When the people stand up to their oppressors, its not terrorism. If it is, then George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Paul Revere, and John Hancock are all terrorists. At least Ayers and his group never intended to kill anyone, even though, of all the bombs they (or its seems only one of them and not Ayers) planted one police officer did die. --Cirroc

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FandB,

Palin revealed nothing. She revived an old and debunked claim. She sacrificed intellectual and personal integrity to partisan desperation. She appealed to the lowest level of understanding--which is to say, no understanding at all.

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The great irony here is that it was the NYT's, yes that bastion of liberalism, which reviewed the association between the two in today's edition. Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but Palin didn't reveal anything. If the Republicans haven't gotten any traction out of it so far, they are not going to now despite such disturbing revelations as this:

"Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school,"

The problem is Bill Ayers is at least a generation older than Obama. His kids are already grown and had probably graduated before Malia and Sasha were even born. By this standard, any parent of a University of Chicago Lab School student would be an associate of Bill Ayers.

Their homes are in Hyde Park, a residential community which surrounds the university. I have friends who live there, too, and have stayed there on a number of occasions over the past twenty-five years. But since my patriotism has already taken a major beating on this site, I'm not worried about revealing this information.

As the article notes, Ayers has been praised by none other than the city's mayor who, while a Democrat, is not a Liberal: “He’s done a lot of good in this city and nationally,” Mayor Richard M. Daley said in an interview this week, explaining that he has long consulted Mr. Ayers on school issues. Mr. Daley, whose father was Chicago’s mayor during the street violence accompanying the 1968 Democratic National Convention and the so-called Days of Rage the following year, said he saw the bombings of that time in the context of a polarized and turbulent era."

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Caveman Lawyer condoning Obama's terrorist buddy and SezWho2 saying Palin scarificed her intellect and integrity by naimng and shaming a man trying to be president who associates with know terrorists.

My goodness, you liberal guys have lost the plot. Obama's time in the spotlight is over.

McCain will not win easily.

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Sarge,

The target audience is much insulted every time Palin opens her mouth and refers to him as Joe Sixpack. I don't think there are many well-functioning American men who are typified by this portrayal. However, it is Palin's image of the everyday American man that he puts away a six-pack a day and yet remains a good family man, hard-working and productive on the job and intellectually adroit enough to wade through economic and political decisions.

In invoking Joe Sixpack, Palin invokes a guy who substitutes alcoholic enlightenment for constructive thought. There's a very big difference between Joe Sixpack and John Q. Public. Joe Sixpack needs to clean up his front lawn.

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McCain will not win easily.

Finally, a point of agreement between me and FandB! Now I'm going to quit while I'm ahead; having been accused of posting too quickly, which indicated a lack of confidence in Obama, and not posting which was taken as a sign I couldn't admit I'd lost the argument. But we are in complete agreement here, McCain will not win easily. Tee hee!

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Nippon5,

Why do you say that most people who now support Obama thought him to be worthless not so long ago? Obama led the primary race wire to wire, I believe. Are you talking about some previous time? When?

In any event, have you considered the possibility that if Obama were white, Palin wouldn't even be trying to make an issue of this? What she is doing here is appealing to prejudice--and one prejudice is just as good as another.

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Hang on everybody. Bill Ayers is not a "terrorist." He was never charged with being a terrorist, much less convicted as one. Whatever he was in his youth he is now a staid member of America's professional establishment.

Palin is a liar. She is a particularly stupid liar too, as she has opened herself up to a big fat law suit by Bill Ayers. The awful thought is that this ignorant hysteric could wind up as the president of the US.

If you want to know about the low level "terrorism" Palin conducted as a mayor and a governor Google "The real Sarah Palin." I promise you, you'll be shocked.

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TheGreatEscape said;

USAKuma- Whatever you say does not stop the fact that Obama has been a member of a church where anti US hatred was spewed, and he associated with a terrorist.

These are facts, and OBama is now finished, thank goodness to bad rubbish!

So the fact that McCain was one of the Keating five isn't important at all? The U.S. suffers its worst financial breakdown ever, and Bush turns to the guy who was a part of the Lincoln Savings and Loan scandal for ideas on what to do. That's like asking Ahmadinejad for advice on how to save Israel from the Palestinean mortor attacks.

As for Obama and Rev. White... I guess Palin's association with the Pentacostal church where she was supposedly cured of witchcraft by their members is OK. Or her current church's philosophy concerning Jews must be okay. Here's the quote from CNN.

Palin now attends the Wasilla Bible Church. She was there on August 17, just days before entering the national spotlight. David Brickner, the founder of Jews for Jesus, was a speaker. He told congregants that terrorist attacks on Israel were God's "judgment" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity. Brickner said, "Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. When a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment -- you can't miss it."

Yeah, Go Palin go! sounds like she supports terrorists and their killing of Jewish people. That is if you believe that an association with a person who says bad things means that you also believe those bad things as Palin does.

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USAKuma- I don't beleiev a word of what CNN says. They are pro Obama and ahte Republicans.

Can you provide solid evidence from a well known unbiased news source?

evidence against Obama is assured, evidence against Palin is idle gossip.

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There are only so many hail Mary passes you can throw in a football game. Looks like this one just went into the sidelines. If McCain-Palin was looking for an October surprise, this ain't it. They gotta do better than that.

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These are facts, and OBama is now finished, thank goodness to bad rubbish!

This was supposed to be in quotes in my previous post, but somehow it didn't get highlighted. This quote is from theGreatEscape not me.

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FandB said:

USAKuma- I don't beleiev a word of what CNN says. They are pro Obama and ahte Republicans.Can you provide solid evidence from a well known unbiased news source?evidence against Obama is assured, evidence against Palin is idle gossip.

So by your own accounting, no matter what source or solid evidence I provide, if it is against Palin it's merely idle gossip. We used to call that "looking at things through Rose-tinted glasses." In this case, Palin-McCain colored.

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Caveman Lawyer condoning Obama's terrorist buddy

Tell us all FandB that you are not condoning police brutality of the 1960's, the drafting of teens who never voted into an unpopular war, segregation of blacks from the general populace, and violent government crackdowns on the people's right to protest.

I understand if you oppose the means Ayers used in his youth. But certainly not his goals. I do not like his means either, but it seems to me the violence did not start with Ayers.

Tell me, do you always favor a pacifist approach to the violence of others? Your stance indicates that you do. --Cirroc

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Obama predicted this turn of events in his acceptance speech at the Democratic Convention: when the other side is desperate, they will use fear tactics instead of addressing the issues, because quite frankly, they have worked in the past. Of course some people will be swayed by these fear-mongering tactics. But hopefully the majority of thoughtful American voters will be able to see through the smoke screen. It's just too bad that someone as likable as Sarah Palin has been forced into the role of attack dog by her handlers.

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Getting very tired of this redneck hockey mom and her quaint Alaskan approach to making a mockery of the US political system. Even more than Bush managed to do.

I think what we are seeing here is desperation from the McCain camp. They know they've made a serious error with Palin and are having to try to find ways to tear down Obama to make up for it.

McCain has offered nothing that makes most of us feel any better about his potential presidency than we do about GWB. And his $5000 med insurance idea sounds like help for insurance companies and another bill we will all have to pay if we want to have any kind of health care.

This on top of Palin's already heading off on a VP initiated cold war with Russia and all her other flat earth notions of how to run the nation.

If the US public vote this pair in on their "maverick" (read as more of the same) platform then the US deserves the decline that will follow.

If the US wises up and realizes the mistakes of the past eight years, then we can start sorting our problems and get the nation moving again.

Palin, nice try but I doubt anyone will buy your accusation. Go back to Alaska and stay there.

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Photo of Bill Ayers, standing on the American flag, 2001.

From an article in which he explains the reasoning behind his 60's campaign of domestic terror and that of his wife, Charles Manson enthusiast Bernadine Dhorn.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/

Judge for yourself...

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"Palin's already heading off on a VP initiated cold war with Russia"

So now criticizing Russia for violating neighboring countries' territory is initiating a cold war, is it? The Georgians would disagree with that.

"If the US wises up and realizes the mistakes of the past eight years"

We're now wising up to the mistakes of the eight years before that.

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If I stood up against the racial and political oppression (read: violence) of the 60's with violence in kind against the oppressors, I wouldn't have any regrets either. Our great nation was founded in exactly the same way. The Founding Fathers responded with violence against violent oppressors.

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Photo of Bill Ayers, standing on the American flag, 2001.

One good pic deserves another

http://koft.net/laser/bushsteps.JPG

Yep, that is our President, trodding the flag. Significant differences: 1. One at least knows he is doing it, the other does not. 2. One is not now nor ever was a presidential candidate of a major party. 3. Which is worse? Standing on a piece of cloth that symbolically represents the country, or symbolically standing on the actual country? I would argue the latter is worse, and as the Republicans have been doing it for 8 years, I am slightly pleased a Democrat will be in the White House soon.

What would please me far greater is if America could have more political parties with half a chance at the Congress and White House. --Cirroc

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Noripinhead Palin as an "Attack dog" would make a great cartoon. I'm not sure who she is attacking for though, as her bites are hurting McCain the most. She is doing really well for the Democrats just appearing as a true blue blooded, white suppremacist, Mrs Red Neck America.

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coulrophobic,

A flag is a piece of cloth. There's no problem with standing on the flag. It makes a statement that many people will not like--but so what? It is--and should remain--protected speech.

Ayers' crimes, whatever they may have been, were crimes of his youth. Speaking of judging for oneself, that's probably a good idea. But you should be clear as to why and how you are judging him.

In our legal system, Ayers was not even charged. There is no question that this was because of prosecutorial incompetence, the passage of time and dumb luck, but Ayers would not be the first nor the last to benefit from these things. And the fact remains that

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tkoind2, USAkuman and jeancolmar...great posts. But don't waste your time arguing reality/facts with the likes of FandB. They are simply ideoloques who will say or do anything to smear someone who poinys out the absurdidty of their arguments. Their "hero(ine)" is someone who is so simple minded she has to state openly she is not going to answer the real questions she is asked, just the ones she wants (can) answer. But, because she says all the right things, and can smear with the best of them, she's qulified to be VP. The moral high ground has never been something these folks can claim, and they are going to resort to the tried and true Karl Rove attck-dog style for the next four weeks. Luckily, the polls say the voters are sick and tired of this crap.

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...continued...

...he has never been convicted of terrorism. It further remains that he is not now the same person that he was. Additionally Obama never knew Ayers during the latter's radical days and his days of flight and has never known him in any capacity connected with terrorism.

Obama has denounced terrorism and the methods of the Weathermen. Palin is engaging in slander and wallowing in slime.

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Sarge, do you think Bush had NOTHING to do with the country's current economic woes? If you think he does have something to do with it, then what is it? Or do you totally blame Clinton and his cronies? I sincerely want to know.

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Palin as an "Attack dog" would make a great cartoon. I'm not sure who she is attacking for though, as her bites are hurting McCain the most.

Most people who think it's cool to own an 'attack dog' usually end up getting bitten at some point.

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He he, this is called politics, if Obama is so perfect Palin wouldn't have any mud to throw at him. I am sure that someone is checking the childhood time of Obama in Indonesia to see there is anything linked to Bali bombers,near or far.It is the same for Democrats checking everything on Palin.

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If Palin had terrorist friends, we wouldn´t hear the end of it. q.e.d.

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As it is, Obama has no terrorist friends and we don't hear the end of it.

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ANOTSUSAGAMI - I'm not saying Bush had absolutely nothing to do with the current economic woes - he's been forced to spend hundreds of billions on the war on terror ( technically the Congress spends it ). But the Democrats have much more to do with this crisis with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. They are heavily involved.

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It doesn't matter what McCain or Palin say or do - the election is over. Obama will be the next president. God help us.

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I am sad to see that McCain (first time I have used is real name) has stooped so low as to go for the smear rather than the issues. I held him to a higher standard than that. It is a sad day for McCain when he throws away civility and comes out throwing mud.

I have now lost all respect I had for the MAN.

JoeBigs

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"In our legal system, Ayers was not even charged. There is no question that this was because of prosecutorial incompetence, the passage of time and dumb luck, but Ayers would not be the first nor the last to benefit from these things. And the fact remains that"

Very true. And William Ayers admitted as much when talking about his acquittal after FBI agents botched the case:

"Guilty as sin, free as a bird, it's a great country" was one of the Ayers quotes accompanying the picture in the magazine.

And yet he still tramples our flag...

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sarge: So you've finally accepted the truth, eh?

"God help us."

Nah, not god... Obama/Biden. At least, they'll do far more to help you and your country domestically and world-wide, than President Bush did; in fact, they're going to spend the majority of their first term trying to clean up Republican trash.

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Doesn´t the stupid woman not know that any criticism of Obama is racism? She will learn. The mainstream media will make sure.

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Sarge, forced to spend on the war on terror?

A. Bush started Iraq and it had ZERO to do with the war on terror. Of course now it is the best training ground money can buy for terrorists. And we are playing for hand over fist. Just how happy are you about funding terrorist training in Iraq?

B. The real war on terror is in Afghanistan and we are losing it because we are spending nearly nothing on it. It has contributed to the destabilization of Pakistan and encouraged the influence of Iran, as Iraq has.

No one held a gun to GWB for Iraq. That misery is self-inflicted and you and I are paying for it. Paying instead of getting better health care, providing education so our kids are as smart and capable as the kids in India and Pakistan. We should have been spending that money on infrastructure and making our nation secure instead of starting up some person vendetta war with a nation that had nothing to do with 911.

Palin and McCain promise more of the same old nonsense we've seen the right produce for eight years. They will play the fear card, the god card, the white picket fence card and talk about how great America is. All that time missing the fact that Joe Sixpack, to quote Palin, is now Joe SickPac because he can't afford proper health care, his kids are now less competitive than kids getting good training in India. His white picket fence has been replaced with a flat in a cheap low rent apartment and his American dream job has been shipped to Bangladesh along with his paycheck. And if he has kids over 18, chances are they are getting shot at in some war we didn't need to fight.

Reality check. Look out a window and you can see the US is sliding into a decline it may not recover from unless we get on it and change things. Obama will help stem the tide and give us time to address our problems. Palin and McCain will have us all living as trailer trash or worst before their first term is up.

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Anyway, the sarge I know doesn't give in so easily as that. A guy STILL in denial about bush would never so easily believe Obama/Biden have it in the bag. Nah, what I suspect is that you have actually come to the conclusion, like the rest of us, that your predictions are always wrong, so this is an attempt to cast some kind of voodoo-like curse on Obama. Fortunately, in this case, you're actually going to be right -- they've got it in the bag, and McCain/Palin, like bush, will very soon be an embarrassment of the past.

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Smith - my biggest fear at this point is that clearing up Bush's mess will take far more than four or even eight years. It's after President Obama takes office that he'll need God's help.

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tkoind2 - Excellent post! Thanks for some great insight, there.

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If you are an Obama supporter apparently it is not much of a leap from "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" to "Stomping on the flag is the highest form of patriotism".

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Good post, tkoind2 -- didn't notice it while I was posting. Anyway, sadly, if you pointed this out to Palin as you do to the few remaining undying fans she has, she (and they) would simply say, "You hate us for our freedoms" in an attempt to smear your reputation through the mud, and completely ignore the need to address the facts you so rightfully point out. In other words, they don't want to hear it, and they certainly don't want to admit that it's true. Palin is doing her best to take the spotlight of her for political arguments, and keep it on her for brainless showboating. Her arguments are so see through it's like they were written on spider webs instead of paper.

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coulrophobic: "Stomping on the flag is the highest form of patriotism".

Why do you think that stomping on your flag is the highest form of patriotism? I didn't hear a single person aside from you saying that. You might make some people angry believing it, too.

As was pointed out, bush has been trampling on the flag for years now, and spitting on the US in general, and we ALL know how poor a president and human being he is for it.

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How is it that a discussion about Gov. Palin drawing attention to how Sen. Barack Obama has terrorists like Bill Ayers for friends is full of impotent raging at President Bush?

Relevance?

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Joe Biggs

I held him to a higher standard than that...I have now lost all respect I had for the MAN.

From your previous posts days ago, "I believe that Old Man McBush is really freaken nutz!" and "Carpet Bagger known as McCain". So this is the higher standard you held him to, and now that's all changed? Pfft, so much for your faux little sob story.

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Sarge- What you said makes sense. I want to ask then, if you truly think McCain is the man for the job. I realize that there's no other choice for faithful Repubs, but I can admit Biden would not have been my choice. McCain's party didn't even want him in '04. What's changed since then? From what I've seen McCain seems to want to stay the Bush course. Unless I'm mistaken this is why you support him. Doesn't his claim that he's a "maverick" (a core element of his campain) seem disingenuous if he simply wants to stay the party line? Is that a quality thats acceptable in a Prez? He insults my intelligence with his "maverick" claim.

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Coulrophobic - hey, you brought it up. Relevance? Or distraction?

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coulrophobic,

This is where I have to put away my violin and get out my portable brass band. The very idea! Ayers making a point by "trampling" our flag!

trample

1: ...to tread heavily so as to bruise, crush, or injure 2: to inflict injury or destruction especially contemptuously or ruthlessly

http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/trample

What I see is Ayer's standing on the flag. You may think that bad enough and that is fair. But to consider the image without bothering to understand the real message is not.

When Ayers said, "Guilty as hell, free as a bird—America is a great country," what do you think he was saying? Do you think he was confessing guilt to some crime? If so, what crime? the crime Dohrn plea-bargained to? inciting mob violence and resisting arrest?

Also from the article when he was explaining his youthful description of the Weatherman agenda:

"The rhetoric was excessive because the times were excessive," says Ayers. "The war had escalated, so naturally the language escalated. No one thought I meant that literally."

This makes perfect sense but I think Ayers has miscalculated that. Some people did think he meant that literally and I think they had good reason to fear that he did. Unfortunately some people seem to think he still holds to his earlier description of the Weatherman agenda and that, contrary to all evidence, Obama is sympathetic to such a stance.

Sarah Palin is trying to foist that fiction upon us even though it did not stick the first couple of times. Really! Doesn't she have a program?

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At this point, any criticism of Obama can be constued as racist. Its like white comedians can never make fun of blacks, but black comedians rip the hell out of each other. How will we be able to critize Obama -- the moment you call him stupid, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton wiil be screaming. I

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USAFdude

my biggest fear at this point is that clearing up Bush's mess will take far more than four or even eight years.

Already blaming Bush for Obama's failed first and possibly second terms, assuming he's even elected. Man, the leftists don't waste any time, do they. :-D

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Helter Skelter - another swing and a miss from the right! I blame Bush for Bush's failures, as was obvious in my post. Your pathetic attempt to misrepresent my statement is just as transparent as Palin's last-ditch desperate attempts to smear Obama.

But, by all means, laugh and smear away; I've always enjoyed finding new NeoCons to defeat! xD

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Tatanka,

No, you can call Obama stupid without having Jackson and Sharpton on your case. However, you'd better be able to defend that claim against overwhelming evidence to the contrary lest the charge of stupidity comes back to bite you in the rear.

But if you call Obama a Muslim, or if you question his motives in converting to Christianity, or if you claim that because he attended Wright's church, or if you claim that he's a terrorist sympathizer--in short, if you deal in hate-mongering, you are likely to be construed as using a proxy for racism. But at that point it really doesn't matter if it's racism is not. Hate is hate no matter how you color it.

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"Hate is hate no matter how you color it."

Sezwho, you really do amuse. You construe other peoples' opinions as hate but are apparently ready to dismiss as symbolic the premeditated,violent and fatal actions of Senator Obama's terrorist pals Ayers and Dhorn.

Tell us if you will what Dhorn really meant when, upon getting the graphic details of one of Charles Manson's murders she gushed, “Dig it! First they killed those pigs and then they put a fork in their bellies. Wild!

http://townhall.com/columnists/SandyRios/2008/04/28/barack_obama,_the_weather_underground,_andthe spirit_of_revolution? page=full&comments=true

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He he, this is called politics, if Obama is so perfect Palin wouldn't have any mud to throw at him.

Yes, it is politics. And I could sling mud at God himself. --Cirroc

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Doesn´t the stupid woman not know that any criticism of Obama is racism?

STRAAAAAMAAAAANNNNNNN! --Cirroc

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Well, nice to see over 60 posts here and 0 in the O.J. Simpson thread! This story went through the cycle once before it has been digested by voters. I think it was a tactical mistake to bring it up again because Palin/McCain need a new message not one that didn't work in the past. Meanwhile the competition is staying on message and, it seems, hammering home a new point every day. Bringing this up again shows how poorly the McCain campaign is operating. Most American media at least tries to present the semblance of "balanced reporting" during elections because it keeps the "fans" from getting bored and keeps the ad money flowing. So they will once again make a big deal out of this in hopes that the polls will even out again. However they are somewhat obligated to report on what the Obabma camp is saying so people will tend to ignore this story they have heard before and listen to the Obama "message of the day" that is new to them. Love him or hate him, no matter how close the media polls say it is to keep viewer numbers up, Obama has it in the bag. When the score is 15-0 in the 8th inning viewers drop, but if the media says the score is 15-14, the number of viewers stays high.

BTW, has anyone else noticed how often US networks use file footage of McCain when he wasn't nearly as wrinkled as he is now?

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A flag is a piece of cloth. There's no problem with standing on the flag.

Legally, no. But I object to disrespect of the flag actually. The flag of the United States of America does not represent the government alone. If it did, I would say burn away. The flag represents EVERYTHING about the United States. Anyone who goes so far as to burn it really ought to renounce their citizenship, or heck, set themselves on fire.

But, I believe those Americans who do this is just completely confused as to what the flag represents, and their little protest of this nature only reveals their ignorance. --Cirroc

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Everybody has an aquaintance that could be the Bill Ayers of our past. Okay Palin is playing McCain's attack dog. That's what she's supposed to do.

Then there are people like myself that listens to Sarah Palin and consider the sourse.

Then I continue to support Barack Obama. < :-)

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Only Obama will have an easy time in power. All he has to do is say " Bush, and his administration, screwed thing up so bad that even I can not heal them". Bingo he has it made for the next 4-8 years.

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Hello, it's me again. McCain/Palin is using FEAR TATICS. "Jealousy brings fear, fear brings the path to the darkside. " A quote from the greatest teacher of them all. Y

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Fear Tactics + Out of touch view point = Breeds ignorance

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You construe other peoples' opinions as hate but are apparently ready to dismiss as symbolic the premeditated,violent and fatal actions of Senator Obama's terrorist pals Ayers and Dhorn.

Wow! Some of you out there really harp on the word "fatal". One cop died. And I will tell you a secret: another cop was very seriously wounded in that same blast and partially blinded. Those cops may have been good guys. I honestly don't know.

But what I do know is that the death and injury toll of the Weathermen was small and that they did not intend for anyone to die. They never targeted a single human life. Contrast that with the four people killed in Ohio protesting the war, or the black man shot to death by cops while trying to protect his mother from the vicious beatings of peaceful MLK followers by the cops. Or even compare it to all the servicemen we lost in Vietnam for nothing. Or the children who died from our bombs, or suffered birth defects from our poisons.

If one death has got any of you this dead set against one man who we are not even sure was directly involved, then your head should have literally exploded in rage with the examples I have presented you. RIP gentle reader. --Cirroc

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WilliB said

Doesn´t the stupid woman not know that any criticism of Obama is racism?

I would love to hear any claim the Obama campaign has made of racism. Please provide source. I do know a poll was conducted by AP on the racial ramifications of this election but to my knowledge Obama did not even use that to claim a disadvantage. It would be especially interesting to hear claims of racism about Palin's comments on alleged ties to a "terrorist." I heard you (WilliB) bring it up and Tatanka reinforce you sentiments; but that has been about the extent of it lately.

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anshin at 01:47 PM JST - 6th October

Only Obama will have an easy time in power. All he has to do is say " Bush, and his administration, screwed thing up so bad that even I can not heal them". Bingo he has it made for the next 4-8 years.

Ha! Ha! That's what the republicans tried to do with the Clinton past and the republicans screwed up so bad, they only wish we had had Bill Clinton these last 8 years VS george bush.

bush's favorability rating is at 26% now. The absolute lowest ever.

Palin is the dick cheney for John McCain. The attack dog. GROWL!!!!!

I think she does look like a pitbull with lipstick. < :-)

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think it was a tactical mistake to bring it up again

The tactical mistake was to have ever let the story of Obama's association with a member of the Marxist terrorist group Weathermen go away. Americans need to be constantly reminded of this, along with Obama's 20 year association with America-hater and race-baiter Pastor Wright. Of course the left doesn't care, but those moderates who are thinking about voting for Obama need to know what's behind the facade.

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goodDonkey, you are correct in what you say. But please don't feed the straaawmaaannnn! --Cirroc

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Palin is truly getting desperate. She had no to no bounce coming out of her debate with Joe Biden and seems to have now resorted to low blows like this.

And let's not forget that now is the time for the pre-election 'October Surprise.'

Clearly the GOP's October Surprise is that John McCain picked such an unqualified loser in Sarah Palin.

That's a huge surprise! :-)

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Palin's party has done more to encourage terrorism than any other in the history of the USA...

...so I don't think anyone's likely to take her very seriously

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Most people who think it's cool to own an 'attack dog' usually end up getting bitten at some point.

And this attack dog's already crapped on McCain's chances.

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About Flags. What value does any flag have if the country it represents is in a decline so bad it hasn't been seen since the fall of the Roman empire?

So just what is our flag representing today? A failing economy, close to 50% of the population unable to have proper medical care, people losing their homes, jobs departing overseas as fast as you can blink. Our education systems are so behind our kids may not be competive with Bangladesh soon. And you can't drive on a bridge without wondering if it safe or not.

We've lost our way people. Spent the last eight years fighting a war that doesn't deliver anything to the average American and has made a mess of Iraq. We've spent so much time drawing lines between ourselves that we can barely see across the wide gap to realize we are all Americans.

It is time for change. Real change. Change driven by people opening up to get things done that we need done. McCain is not telling us his plan, other than the obviously flawed $5K bonus for insurance companies. He's got no agenda to offer up so they have turned to dirty politics.

If McCain really means change, then let's hear it? I don't buy Sara Palin any more than the sales lady who comes knocking on the door. She's trying to sell me something but not giving me any details about what it is she's selling. Stop straight talking random sound bites and put something meaningful on the table.

If you can't, get out of the way because change is coming and McCain/Palin are just another bump in the road to making change happen.

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"Palin's party has done more to encourage terrorism than any other in the history of the USA"

Delusional statement. Palin's party has done more to combat terrorism than any other.

"this attack dog's already crapped on McCain's chances"

We'll see November 4, won't we?

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Can McCain even remember what he did when he was eight years old? Sarah Palin, 44, was probably watching The Brady Bunch. So should she be accused of "palling around with Marcia Brady"? Now there's a thought. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

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Palin is a clown. She was born in former Russian territory - so she's a Russkie I guess.

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Who cares about the standing on/burning of the American flags. If the majority of the flags weren't made in China, they could sell more to all these protesters and help the US economy.

(that was said, tongue-in-cheek, for those of you who are lacking in a sense of humour).

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It's crystal clear from Sarah Palin's record and all her interviews that she is simply not ready to be VP, let alone President.

Time to move on.

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"Palin is a clown. She was born in former Russian territory - so she's a Russkie I guess."

Idaho is former Russian territory? It's you who look like a clown...

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Iraq is the best training center for urban warfare and terror ever imagined. Money could not buy the training and recruiting that terror groups are getting. What's more, IT IS ALL FREE, courtesy of the Bush administration. Palin and McCain will keep it open for them and open up a whole new one in Iran if given half a chance.

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Sarge - not "delusional" (thanks), clear sighted, more like.

The existence of Al Qaeda in Iraq is completely a result of Bush's foreign policy. All of the thousands of deaths that they have caused (probably many, many more than died on 9/11) are therefore also direct consequences of US policy, not to mention the enormous civilian death toll as a consequence of US military action. Add to this the total blundering of US policy towards Pakistan, which is becoming ever more dangerously destabilised by the day, and its unequivocal support for Israel which itself commits terrorist acts (hundreds dead in Lebanon?) and encourages terrorist acts against itself, and you have a pretty damning case in support of my assertion.

People like McCain and Palin who support this failed policy, which has encouraged terrorism, do not deserve to be elected.

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Some words Ms. Palin should be familiar with, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

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Sarge, why is it that after the many long years you have supported the failed Bush regime, you still cannot see that the mccain/Palin team and their operatives will simply offer up more of the same?

What about this don't you yet understand?

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[Palin] sacrificed intellectual and personal integrity to partisan desperation.

Sez, she has no intellectual integrity left to sacrifice. It was cast out with any witches when she had her onstage de-witching. She went up for a de-witching and it turned out to be a de-witting.

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"Palin is a clown."

The majority of Americans and the vast majority of people in her state disagree.

"She was born in former Russian territory - so she's a Russkie I guess"

Har! You should be on late-nite TV.

Here's an interesting commentary by Rush Limbaugh:

Sarah Palin is a real story of accomplishment. She is a real fresh voice in this election. She is the real citizen activist. She got involved in government at the local level. First in the PTA because the school was screwing up. Then the city council. Then as mayor. And she did it all on her own. She took on several well-heeled and well known politicians to win the Republican primary, and then the general election to become governor. She took on corruption in her own party. She is not only as far from the Washington cesspool as anybody can get, but she doesn't think like a big government Washington politician. And this is what distinguishes her so profoundly from Joe Biden and Barack Obama. She brings a citizen's perspective to issues. Not the perspective of people who have been in government their entire lives, or who have been around those who advocate government control of private propery all their lives. Liberals like to downplay her record as governor. Well, I understand she didn't get some massive spending bill passed. I understand she didn't promote the appointment of left-wing activists to the federal bench like Biden. I understand she wasn't wrong on every major foreign policy issue as Biden has been. And I understand that Sarah Palin did not block drilling for more oil offshore or anywhere else. No wonder liberals hate her. She is a one-woman wrecking crew of their agenda. In her 20 months as governor, she negotiated a deal for a new pipeline in Alaska involving Canada and the oil companies that will do more to provide and increase supply of natural gas to the people of this country than anything Barack Obama or Joe Biden have ever done or will ever do. In other words, in that one act, she has done more than Obama or Biden have ever done for this country.

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The war or wars are no longer an issue, attacks on Obama's character are flogging a dead horse. That dog didn't hunt the first time and it won't hunt now. Wall street looks set to take another big tumble in a few hours and people are wondering how they will be able to buy presents for their kids for christmas and what to do if their spouse gets laid off and they can't make a payment or two. Trying to move the debate back to Obama's character is a sure fire way to get slaughtered in the election. Bring up the past and the Keating 5 will bite McCain on the butt. I don't care if Obama plays tidily winks with Osama or if McCain took millions from Keating or fought the Vietnam war single handedly. I want to know who will lead in the impending tough economic times and I get the feeling the electorate, outside of the unshakable bases of both parties will vote solely on the economy.

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“People say that I speak too simply, or don’t have quite the..." (I believe the word she's struggling for here is 'vocabulary') "...I don’t have my Thesaurus in my back pocket all along through my speeches,” she told donors. “Well I don’t have time for that.”

People don't really care that she speaks plainly. What their concerned about is that she doesn't really know what she's talking about when she does.

Again, more fuel for the inane proposition that our nation should be led by people who are no smarter than the average Joe SixPack, leading the new battle cry in classrooms across America: "Strive for Mediocrity!"

Way to go, Palin. No time for educating yourself in how to be a qualified stateswoman, but plenty of time to make entirely contrived allusions to Obama being a friend of terrorists. Keep talking, Palin. You're doing a great job of sinking McCain's White House aspirations all by your self.

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"attacks on Obama's character are flogging a dead horse"

( sigh ) You may be right. Many people indeed seem to be indifferent to Obama's past associations with shady characters.

"Wall street looks set to take another big tumble"

Yeah, well, what's been going up and up for no solid reason must eventually come down. Didn't you know that? Looks like the $700 billion's not enough. Maybe another $700 billion lol...

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I'm getting the impression that in the years to come, mccain's selection of Sarah Palin will be seen as the worst political mistake of his career - and the one that sunk his second presidential campaign.

Despite everything mccain does, Obama is gaining in battleground states, and turning states that were once firmly red to now being winnable for the Democrats.

I read an article last week that stated that one of the key reasons Obama has come so far so quickly is due to his relentless drive and his campaign's attention to relevant detail (for example the best way to strategically win in toss-up states and how best to utilize manpower and resources.)

He sliced and diced Hillary's campaign not with a knockout punch but with 1000 cuts.

He is doing the same with mccain.

mccain, on the other hand, is all over the place. First he is suspending his campaign, then he isn't. Then he is wanting to postpone the first presidential debate, then he backtracks and shows up. not to mention he is against drilling/supporting Bush's tax cuts, etc. before he was for them.

The Obama's campaign's latest advert claiming mccain is 'erratic' is right on the mark.

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LFRAgain - "Strive for Mediocrity!"

That may be your battlecry, but it certainly is not Palin's or the Republicans'.

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Sarge - not sure why you're laughing out loud about the unfortunate need for your tax dollars (and those of your kids and grandchildren) to be thrown at an enormous financial problem which could have been avoided by the current US government. If it was my taxes and my government, I wouldn't be, I'd be calling for resignations.

Palin is plainly desperate - to be talking about Obama having ONCE met a "shady character" about 13 years ago - hardly a damning indictment, is it? If that's the worst the Republicans can invent and exaggerate, I'd have to wonder how tough it's likely to get for him.

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You really don't know much.

That would go for both of us.

Ayers and his apologists insist that the Weather Underground only killed three people - their own as it turned out -

Okay. Who are they, how did they die, and were they targeted? I suspect you are talking about the three that died when the bomb they were making exploded.

At first I thought you were throwing the Brinks robbery at me. Two cops and a Brinks guard were killed. But guess what? Ayers was not involved. Darn.

Then comes the silly and implausible attempt at actually defending their actions: the group always "phoned in warnings," as if this somehow lessens the barbarity of what they did.

It proves their target was property and not human life, at least until they teamed up with the Panthers for the Brink's robbery.

"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

That's about as sick and destructive as it gets.

As a statement, its a winner. Does it compare to the rhetoric and lies that led the to Iraq invasion? Its death toll? Same comparison with Vietnam.

I will not deny the people went overboard and went pretty nutty. But I wonder how any of us would have held up in those times. I never even received a draft card in my life. Never even worried about getting one. But if I had, it is quite likely I would have taken some shots at people, and they would not have been Iraqis!

And for the record - The Weathermen did try to kill:

Nowhere did you prove intent to kill. Looks like intent to scare to me, particularly since no one died. Was there a phone call before that one? --Cirroc

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Sushi - "I'm getting the impression that in the years to come, mccain's selection of Sarah Palin will be seen as the worst political mistake of his career"

I see the media has got you brainwwashed too.

Obama's the one who made the worst mistake of his political career by dissing Hillary and selecting Biden.

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I love how the relationship between Obama and Ayers keeps growing with each posting by the right. First, its that he's pals with Ayers, now its Ayers and Dhorn. Palin's friends are going keep going "doggone it" until they can claim that Obama was the bomb maker in the 60's (at the age of 8).

But in my original post, which has been long forgotten about, I mentioned that McCain was one of the Keating 5 accused of severe corruption in 1989 for aiding Charles Keating in the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association that resulted in the loss of life savings for 21,000 elderly people.

How's that for terrorism? We are having an economic meltdown and the republicans want to ask a guy who was a part of a group who destroyed the lives of so many people to be in control of the entire U.S. economy? That's just horrific.

Lets not forget that Palin and McCain's lawyers are now trying very hard to prevent the truth about Troopergate from being revealed because they know that she misused her power while Gov. The independent investigator hired by both Republicans and Democrats in the state has found something and now Palin's lawyers don't want it exposed so they will continue smear attacks to divert everyone.

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It is nice to see that the republicans are doing what they do best. a Smear company, keep the people unaware of the real political issues

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f&c - Not sure why you think I'm laughing out loud at the government's decision to spend $700 billion to bail out Wall Street. In fact, I'm nearly crying.

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But why would Limbaugh say anything bad about her anyway? She's the Republican choice for VP so of course he's going to support her.

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Sarge - errr....perhaps because you said that you were ("lol")? But I suppose after cheering 300 billion being flushed down the toilet as you failed to control Iraq and promoted Al Qaeda terrorism, what's another 700 billion (borrowed from China and Japan, because you are effectively bankrupt as a nation) to try and prevent a depression. Not much I guess...

Funny how you are so vehement in your support for the people who made - and who support - these failed policies though. Especially as you have the choice of something different.

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This woman is an idiot for making such pathetic claims.

And this election on both sides of partisan politics has depassed the already stretched bounds of shrieking stupidity.

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f&c - I'm afraid you misunderstood my "lol," meaning "Lord, oh, Lord" - not "lots of laughs" or whatever you thought.

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coulrophobic,

Really?! Can you show anything that indicates that Obama is a Muslim, that he converted to Christianity solely for political gain, that he subscribes the precepts of Rev. Wright or that he supports terrorism? What I have said is that those who make those claims cannot support them except through non-evidentiary means--which I believe amounts to hate-mongering.

I do not necessarily construe this as racism, but I am not so naive as not to know that racism exists and that when people do not speak of it they are likely to be using proxies for it. When time and again those who make such claims are asked for substantive evidence and cannot give it, then I personally am rather more inclined to think that there is something else behind the stated claim.

Neither am I prepared to dismiss as symbolic the violent and fatal actions of Ayers and Dohrn. (By the way, Obama's association with them does not imply they were "pals". That word is another example of your poisonous departure from fact.) I'm quite prepared to condemn their violent and fatal actions. That's why I said that people at that time had good reason to take Ayers description of the Weathermen seriously. Remind me again, though, what violent and fatal actions did they commit?

However, I can understand what Ayers has said about the times and about his need to overstate his case in view of the enormity of the repression he believed they confronted. Overstatement--perhaps about Obama, for example--is what we see here every day. Nonetheless, if you consider the rather bizarre claims that are made about him not to be overstatements, then you might not be able to understand the mechanism involved.

I can't tell you what Dohrn meant by the quote you produce. I think it is really beside the point. But I will make you this deal. Just as I explained what Ayers meant when he explained his earlier remark, show me Dohrn's explanation of her earlier remark and I will explain it to you if you are still having trouble.

That was then. This is now. Ayers and Dohrn are different people. Obama knew them at a different time. Move on. If we can forgive McCain for his (ahem!) "poor judgment" in grafting with the Keating 5, I'm fairly sure we can forgive Obama his association with maybe-so-maybe-not-but-now-reformed terrorists from the early days of Hee-Haw.

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Palin is really grasping at straws now, and this remark may come up to bite her master in the ass.

Does McCain still think she was the right choice as his running mate?

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sarge: "That may be your battlecry, but it certainly is not Palin's or the Republicans'."

nah... he was referring to it being the battlecry in schools across the US, since they certainly aren't striving for anything else. You're right about it not being the cry for Palin, though... her's is something more like, "Strive to keep my mouth shut, and to keep Troopergate under wraps; settle for idiocy". She's an idiot, sarge... face it.

And as for Palin being McCain's nail in the coffin and the worst choice of his career, it will most certainly go down as such. Not only that, but it'll effectively be the END of his career; he may remain a senator when it's done, but he'll continue to be seen as a laughing stock (as he has since his campaign started), a hypocrite (again, largely since the campaign began), a liar, and pretty much completely ineffectual. He'll clearly have no more chances to run for the position of president, and if by some miracle he WERE chosen, you would never see nor hear of Palin again except in sarcastic questions aimed at whom McCain would choose to run for VP.

Palin was a HUGE mistake, and as soon as the convention was over and she had a chance to open her trap, the polls started slipping for Republicans. Now it's sealed and the Dems have it, which you yourself admit. You cannot deny Palin helped contribute to this, and the manner with which she spoke and as such this thread was created helped particularly. She has been nothing but a detriment to the Republican party, and I can pretty much guarantee you that in a month, when Obama is president, you will all chuckle a little and say, "Yeah... that Palin... THAT was a doozy!".... that is, if you bother to even admit that you remember her.

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"Obama's past associations with shady characters."

Interesting that you choose to use the plural "characters." Are their other mysterious, sundry figures in Obama's past that voters are indifferent to? Palin and the McCain campaign didn't seem to be too forthcoming about their use of the plural "terrorists." Please, Sarge, share. I'm dying to hear what you've got. Or is this another twist on the tired, failed theme of "Chicago Politics Equals Corrupt"?

And Bill Ayers' "shady" dealings since the 90's have been what precisely? Guilt by association on a trust that sought to improve the quality of education for Chicogo youths? Egads. Simply insidious.

If that's really the best McCain's team and the GOP has got, then they may as well mail in their votes for all the good it will do them.

Clearly, Palin, who can't operate without a leash, was put up to this low-rent character assassination by the brain trust in charge of McCain's campaign strategy - such as it is. The hole just keeps getting deeper for Team McCain.

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It is nice to see that the republicans are doing what they do best. a Smear company, keep the people unaware of the real political issues

Right, like there's no smearing by the democrats. Actually, the republicans are trying get the truth out about Obama that the people have been kept unaware of by the leftist media. Ayers, Wright, Rezko... The MSM wants to bury these issues about Obama's past associations. That's why the leftist posters here are so panicky. They don't want people to see Obama exposed for what he really is.

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CavemanLawyer,

If you object to burning the flag fine. Object away. In this case we have a photo of a man trampling...er...standing on a flag, however. If you want to object to any show of disrespect for the flag (how about failing to stand for the national anthem?) that's fine too. Object away.

I understand that people will object to that. And I understand that the flag is more than a symbol of the government. However, I disagree that the flag represents everything about the United States. I think it represents different things to different people. To you it might represent everything. To others it might represent tyranny and oppression. To others it might represent Christian piety, truth, justice and the American way.

When Ayers stands on the flag or disrespects it, I think he is sending a message to those who have an unbalancedly favorable view of what the United States really stands for. He is willing to risk the objections of others.

Personally, I don't hold much with disrespecting others. I'm no longer a teenager or an angry-testosterone charged youth. But I have to tell you, with all the insults, the personal jibes and the incivility that hold commerce in our society, standing on the flag is one of the lesser forms of disrespect.

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The only sympathy at all I feel for Palin is that a lot of this is probably not her idea. I don't believe if she were allowed to actually speak to interviewers that weren't screened she would say anything better, but clearly the Republicans are writing the script so that she does all the dirty work for them. This is going to destroy her career, as she will easily be seen, along with bush, as the scapegoats for the failure of the Repubs. to retain office. Troopergate won't be able to be held off any longer, and her husband and co. will have to answer the subpoenas, and THAT will bust wide open into a total scandal for her, aggravated by all the efforts to thwart it pre-election. She'll be appreciated by a FEW in Alaska, but that'll be all.

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smith - "nah... he was referring to it being the battlecry in schools across the US"

I'm afraid you and LFRAgain have been watching too many episodes of The Simpsons.

Xennon - "Palin is really grasping at straws now"

Bill Ayers ain't a straw. Obama didn't denounce the radical views and actions of his former associate Bill Ayers until after he started running for president, just like he didn't denounce the hateful preaching of his former pastor the Reverend Wright until after he started running for president.

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smith... "Troopergate... will bust wide open into a total scandal"

You wish.

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Sarge,

Did anyone ask Obama his opinion of the views of Wright and the former views of Ayers before he started running for President?

My goodness! (As Reagan would say.) I'd hate to think that I had to start denouncing the known past transgressions of everyone I know. My popularity is weak as it is.

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Delusional statement. Palin's party has done more to combat terrorism than any other.

Oh dear! Do I need to bring up Iran-Contra? Bay of Pigs invasion and the bombing of a department store, of all things, prior to invasion? The planning and money for that came from the Eisenhower admin though carried out under Kennedy.

But somebody says there actually is no war on terror. Imagine that! It sure would explain a lot of things, from not caring about where bin Laden is to invading Iraq:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7859

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Obama's the one who made the worst mistake of his political career by dissing Hillary and >selecting Biden.

Hey Sarge, try to keep your distortions to your party. Plenty there to cut through. Like why mccain didnt pick leiberman as he really wanted to do so. He caved into rove and was forced to pick failin palin who is really bush light(er), in tow with big oil again.

Hillary will be president, but you just have to wait a few years for that to happen.

Less than 30 days to the republican meltdown. Finally the adults will take over.

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The only way I can describe Sarah Palin is 'ditsy.'

And if it wasn't already bad enough that support for Republicans has been dropping since she was selected, it is just getting worse -

"ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Seven aides to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin have reversed course and agreed to testify in an investigation into whether the Republican vice presidential nominee abused her powers by firing a commissioner who refused to dismiss her former brother-in-law.

There is no indication, however, that Palin or her husband will now agree to testify in the legislative inquiry, which has dogged her for the past several months and could hurt John McCain in the final weeks of the presidential race."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/ap_on_el_pr/palin_troopergate

Oh, and this -

Obama to hit McCain on Keating Five "Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) on Monday will launch a multimedia campaign to draw attention to the involvement of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in the “Keating Five” savings-and-loan scandal of 1989-91, which blemished McCain’s public image and set him on his course as a self-styled reformer.

Retaliating for what it calls McCain's “guilt-by-association” tactics, the Obama campaign is e-mailing millions of supporters a link to a website, KeatingEconomics.com, which will have a 13-minute documentary on the scandal beginning at noon Eastern time on Monday

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081006/pl_politico/14302;_ylt=AgUMm3VMCpvlwMSdev_88wxh24cA

ouch!

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This is going to destroy her career

Oh brother, it's getting thick in here. :-D

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and how about this?

Obama clinches on Rove map "With 30 days until Nov. 4, Karl Rove projects that Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) would get at least 273 electoral votes – three more than are needed to win – if the presidential election were held today."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081005/pl_politico/14294;_ylt=ArK3OTc6qDMNutwYvmWWMDReW7oF

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Zurconium - "Less than 30 days to the republican meltdown. Finally the adults will take over."

LOL! Admittedly, that's a bit of a low blow, but I think you are bang on the mark.

No insult intended, but in the 5-odd years I've been debating Republicans on JT, it has ALWAYS felt like I have been talking with a bunch of kids.

Sadly, it still does. :-(

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"Less than 30 days to the republican meltdown. Finally the adults will take over."

TRANSLATION: I'm devoid of intelligent arguments so I'll resort to adolescent insults. Yeah, real grown-up. :-D

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Sushi,

were it just the normal riffraff on JT that would be no problem. Unfortunately the cheeseballs running the US right now are clearly morally, intellectually and socially backward. And they nominate palin who is definitely more of the same, and perhaps even worse.

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Basically this is the last 30 days or so of the very important American election ,so no stone will be left unturned,past or present. It is only normal for Palin to throw the truth at Obama because it is already available through Obama 's past,good on her. Palin should keep digging deeper and throw out more truths as soon as it is available for all to see. She might single handedly turn the tide.Wow, she is such a fighter!

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tclh - sadly for mccain/Sarah Palin supporters and other Americans who hate their country, pretty much every time Sarah Palin opens her mouth, mccain's polls sink yet further.

Watch out - the Obama campaign is going aggro on this.

They have already started and will continue to preempt the lying and mistruths that are now being vomited in increasing amounts from the GOP campaign.

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Sushi - "in the 5-odd years I've been debating Republicans on JT, it has ALWAYS felt like I have been talking with a bunch of kids..."

That's funny, I was going to say the same thing about debating the liberals on JT. Come on, Sushi, admit it, you love it!

"...Sadly, it still does."

And sadly, you keep at it.

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Sez - What's false? That Obama's never had associations with terrorists and hateful preachers? Unfortunately, it's true. But what I think is even worse is his condescending arrogance and his utter lack of executive experience.

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Sarge - "That's funny, I was going to say the same thing about debating the liberals on JT. Come on, Sushi, admit it, you love it!"

You're right - I do, I do :-)

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Hrmmm

talk about wrapping a turd in pretty paper.... Bill Ayers is a terrorist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

from a left sided rag http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169

If we follow some of your ideas what is terror, you have to kill many and get charged (which means you have to go to court and be found guilty) and cant be a free man because of an error. So OJ isnt a murderer, OBL isnt a terrorist, and all those who kill people for a political cause isnt a terrorist...

Obama isnt a terroist hes the next worse thing-------- a Politician.....they kill millions and rob everyone blind and yet you still pay them and call them the next savior....

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The final nail in your beloveds coffin. Hahaha.His past catches up, as i stated earlier. Mixing with terrorists will not get you elected in my country.Palin was right to reveal his sordid secret. No patriot can vote for him now. He has lost the faith of all decent Americans.Palin who has been mocked by some here, has shown that electing Obama would lead to the end of the US as we know it.I do not want my country to become a base for terrorists.

The words of someone not very smart or with there eyes closed.

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SushiSake3, the momentum is building up against GWB and it affects McCain/Palin campaign. America is tired of everything now from war to economy. Remember Saddam Hussein said that America has "no stomach"for war? If the enemy prolongs the fight long enough ,America will lose its patience and demands "CHANGE" at all cost,just like the Vietnam war.McCain /Palin are trying to do better for America but it seems that the "sinking weight" of Bush is too heavy for them to lift up. I admire Palin's fighting spirit though ,"never say die".Good on her.

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AP says:

In her character attack, Palin questions Obama's association with William Ayers, a member of the Vietnam-era Weather Underground. Her reference was exaggerated at best if not outright false. No evidence shows they were "pals" or even close when they worked on community boards years ago and Ayers hosted a political event for Obama early in his career.

Obama, who was a child when the Weathermen were planting bombs, has denounced Ayers' radical views and actions.

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Now if Obama was a white man and running for president,would this be a nail in his political coffin.... What about this.... if GWB was a democrate instead of a Republican (same record and all) would Obama even be considered for the office? What if GWB was a great president and didnt mess up so much, then would Obama even be know at all in the political world...

Would you like an intelligent answer?

This would not be a "nail in the coffin" for a white man. If you would bother reading the truth as printed by the Associated Press, you would know that Palin is just trying to smear Obama. If you look at the poles, you can understand the GOP's desperation.

This is unrelated to Obama's race. Obama is not popular because of his race. He's popular because his message reverberates in our hearts.

If GWB was a Democrat? Do you mean, "What if there is Democratic President with an under 30% approval rating whose policy has resulted in thousands and thousands of death and hurt the image of the US?"

Then yes, Obama would be popular now.

What if GWB was a great President?

What if, what if.. gee, it would have no relation to Obama, wouldn't it?

I hope this wasn't too difficult to grasp.

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Palin's a Russkie plant to ensure liberals win control of the U S of A. Everyone knows that Alaska was once a part of Russia.

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The terrorist William Ayers is just the first. Next up is Senator Obama's financier from Chicago, convicted Syrian-born racketeer Tony Rezko. Maybe after that it's back to Senator Obama's racist, neo-segregationist church for a closer look at his twenty year association with the the hate-filled Reverend Wright. The senator has another pal from Chicago he will no doubt soon be distancing himself from - the prominent Muslim, black nationalist and close Obama associate, Khalid Abdullah Tariq al-Mansour. Claims are that he helped get Barack Obama into Harvard. He is filled with hatred:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4DsaWLrJoY

It's a shame that campaign time has be spent on stuff as unseemly as all this.

Maybe next time around the mainstream media will do the job the public expects them to do in a more impartial fashion.

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Also based on the comments of the above people, if you meet someone like Ayers 20 years after he did terrorist acts you wont hear him talk about how he thinks violence is the way to get a political point across? Did Bill forget his principle ideas? I still remember what I was taught 20 years ago and still todoy believe in my core values. Why is it because he didnt go to jail it would mean he changed his views? Allot of you call this war the second vietnam, seems if Avery felt that way back then he might feel that way now...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama-Ayers_controversy

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Statistician ( 5:26PM ) - Har! Like I said, you should be on late-nite TV.

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Nippon5,

It probably is accurate to describe Bill Ayers as being a terrorist. But that's a little like saying that the US put Americans of Japanese origin or descent into concentration camps. Accurate but misleading.

In any event, Bill Ayers is not a terrorist. "Was", yes, with reservations. "Is", no.

Do you really think that discoverthenetworks.org is a left-sided rag? It looks to me as though it is a web-site devoted to tracking down the "leftist" and the "left-wing" organizations wherever they may be. People with liberal, even radically liberal views, seldom speak of themselves in those terms.

It's not really clear who the "you" is of your post, but a definition of terrorist is wanting. Your wikipedia references suggests that it is necessary to deliberately target non-combatants. In the eyes of the Weathermen, I think the police were the enemy. This doesn't excuse anything the Weathermen did and it doesn't make them any less "terrorists" for practical purposes, but it does suggest that it doesn't quite fit your reference--which by the way does not make the specific claim that Ayers was a terrorist.

But, even stipulating that Ayers was some kind of terrorist, that does not make him a terrorist now. And if politicians are worse than terrorists, that applies to the whole lot of them, not just Obama.

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Sarge,

What's true is that Obama has had associations with Ayers. What's false is that Ayers was a terrorist at any time during his association with Obama or since.

What's true is that Obama had associations with Wright. And what's true is that Wright has a heightened sense of racial consciousness and that he has anger and possibly some hate in that connection. What's false is that Wright is full of hate, although he may be hateful to you. It would also be false to say that Wright preaches hate or to suggest that Obama subscribed to a hatred which Wright did not preach.

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“People say that I speak too simply, or don’t have quite the..."

"Je ne sai quoi" is the phrase she's looking for.

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moonbeams at 05:26 PM JST - 6th October

This would not be a "nail in the coffin" for a white man. If you would bother reading the truth as printed by the Associated Press, you would know that Palin is just trying to smear Obama. If you look at the poles, you can understand the GOP's desperation. (I have read the truth and it is as it is he has been working with and was helped by Ayers, Ayers is a terrorist and that is fact)**

This is unrelated to Obama's race. Obama is not popular because of his race. He's popular because his message reverberates in our hearts. (it isnt part of the race thats true, Obama isnt popular because of his message as he doesnt have one he has a democrated based message (96% vote record), he is doing well because of people not liking Bush period..)

If GWB was a Democrat? Do you mean, "What if there is Democratic President with an under 30% approval rating whose policy has resulted in thousands and thousands of death and hurt the image of the US?"

Then yes, Obama would be popular now.(Obama wouldnt have a following if a Democrate had done what Bush did to say other wise is just foolish, his whole campain is based on we are in this because of Bush)

What if GWB was a great President?

What if, what if.. gee, it would have no relation to Obama, wouldn't it?(actually it would, if the party in control does well and you have a good candidate(McCain is actually a good candidate) then usually they win the following election unless your name is Gore)

I hope this wasn't too difficult to grasp. (actually it was since Im looking at it from a nontainted view, unlike those who see things from the political edge maybe I will buy a set of rose colored glasses and see this candidate as something more then just another Political game player)

Dont get me wrong I want to have change, I think Bush is an Idiot, I think Obama has many good points, I also see McCain has good points, But that has nothing to do with why we have to change the history of a terrorist in order to make a candidate seem cleaner... I dont think Obama is a terrorist, I think he just likes those with an extreme view, same as McCain just the other extreme.

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I guess Palin and McCain want everyone to ignore the fact that the administration of GWB is "pals" with Libya now, and is likely to remove NK from the list of terrorist countries. This is just blatant desperation and character assasination. Which, coming fully four weeks out from election day, must show how truly bleak the Republicans own polling numbers are. They have already given up on Michigan. More will surely follow.

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Sezwho2 Your grasping at straws... The man attacked with bombs buildings, the fact people didnt die in all the attacks does not make it non terrorist attack. Terrorist if you read the wiki also says to cause terror.. If you had your work blow up one night you would have terror..

The you was all those who say well he didnt kill people blah blah blah... The fact is he did terror activities and therfore is a terrorist.. If you rape a woman you are a rapist, it doesnt matter if you did it 20 years ago or not......

There is nothing misleading about calling ayers a terrorist...

Only thing misleading is trying to say he didnt hurt anyone, or it was long ago, blah blah blah... He did it, he was brought to court for it, he admitted it, and he was a terroist....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorist the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terror 4: violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>

I added the Websters because you seem confussed on the meaning...

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Audio clip of Ayers and his wife at a conference in 2007.

It's Chomsky on steroids.

I detect no remorse for even a change in the views that had them planting bombs in their own country 40 years ago

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/04/020358.php

The mainstream media were not interested.

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I detect no remorse for even a change in the views that had them planting bombs in their own country 40 years ago

should read: I detect no remorse or even a change in the views that had them planting bombs in their own country 40 years ago

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The only troubling Obama connection is Rezco, in my view, because that seediness required some participation on Obama's part. The connection with Ayers is really weak. McCain, of course, has his own skeletons in the closet, and I imagine Palin has a few as well. But how important are these things? What I find annoying is that this kind of election tactic, "who does the opponent know who is a slimeball," takes us away from the important issues that need to be discussed and debated. We're in trouble, folks. Expect the world economy to nosedive very soon.

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"This is just blatant desperation and character assasination. Which, coming fully four weeks out from election day, must show how truly bleak the Republicans own polling numbers are. They have already given up on Michigan. More will surely follow."

Very astute observation, jerseyboy. Most intelligent Americans can see right through these Republican slime tactics as the desperate ploy they are. They are nothing new: Republican slimers spat upon Vietnam-vet John Kerry's service to the nation, and they spat upon disabled Vietnam-vet Max Cleland's as well (associating him with Osama bin Laden).

Barack Obama with some Republican slime on him still stands taller and more able than John McCain on his best day.

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Why are folks (as Senator Obama would say) surprised that Barack Obama has links to radicals like Ayers? When first asked about them Obama quickly tried to deflect suspicions and doubts about his true estimation of and regard for his country by claiming (incorrectly, to put it politely) that Ayers was just a professor of English who lives in his neighborhood.

But in a sense it was all a pretty natural course of events for a guy who first came to the mainland at twenty and then went right into academia and surrounded himself, by his own account, with the 'disenfranchised.' Much of bigtime academia loathes America, even more than the media elites and Hollywood. From there to Chicago politics it was only bound to get worse.

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Again, Obama is black, so his terrorist and racist connections must not be questioned. Get with the program.

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But in a sense it was all a pretty natural course of events for a guy who first came to the mainland at twenty and then went right into academia and surrounded himself, by his own account, with the 'disenfranchised.' Much of bigtime academia loathes America, even more than the media elites and Hollywood.

Wow. The Republicans must have screwed things up really bad to have paved the way for such a radical [sic] individual to attain the highest office in the land.

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Again, Obama is black, so his terrorist and racist connections must not be questioned.

Question away! The problem is that the Republicans have slimed so much that Americans expect little else from them. Like the little boy who kept crying "Wolf."

But the way that Republican leadership, such as it was, enabled the looters of Wall Street to bring down the banks and investment houses, must make a guy like Ayers simply shake his head in wonder. Few things can cause more destruction than a greedy conservative who has eluded government oversight.

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WilliB,

you are right, the repubs are playing the race card again to try and derail the upcoming landslide. The fact is only bush could get a black liberal elected in the USA, its an amazing feat of constant and total failure that has opened the door to the white house for a black man. But the racists on this board and in the republican party just cannot let that happen without running a swift boat lynching of Obama. Will it work this time, no, but rovian election habits are going to die very slowly along with the republican party.

On a lighter note, Sarge your comment . . .

LFRAgain - "Strive for Mediocrity!" That may be your battlecry, but it certainly is not Palin's or the Republicans'.

That is really rich Sarge, if the republicans could achieve mediocrity that would be a vast improvement to pure failure in the last eight years.

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Nippon5

By your frequent reference to the definition of a terrorist, GWB is a dyed-in-the-wool terrorist. He has single-handedly destroyed the economy(Reps want to blame Dems during Clinton's time, but Bush had 8 years to notice and didn't)

He has stomped on and ripped up the Bill of Rights/constitution with his 'Big Brother' Patriot Act Gestapo methods (Shall we mention use of torture and denying rights accorded to all from the Geneva Convention at Guantanamo).

And of course let us not forget his failed ability to win a war against a single country with no advanced weapons (or weapons of mass destruction) to speak of certainly seems to have filled the American people with terror. Note that this war has now lasted longer than World War II which started in 1939 and ended in 1945

McCain wishes he weren't sleeping together with Bush, but they're tied at the ankles; inseparable.

McCain should have been able to see that no one likes a prolonged war without clear goals or definable victories. No one likes a war in which its nearly impossible to tell who you are to defend and who you are to shoot. That is what people learned with the Vietnam war when soldiers couldn't tell if the village they were entering was filled with south Vietnamese or Northern Vietnamese insurgents. Oh yeah, McCain spent a large part of the war as a prisoner. He didn't have to worry about being told to stop advancing because of a parallel that was on some map. For him it was easy to tell friend from foe. Those in the boxes with him were friends, those keeping him a prisoner were foes (unless you count the guard who drew the christian symbol... then it would seem that McCain was making friends with the foes).

GWB saw his father defend Kuwait and repulse Saddam easily. He didn't understand what his father already knew; that Saddam was the linchpin keeping The Shiites and Sunni's from killing each other. GHWB put Saddam in place while he was working under Reagan in order to deal with the problems Carter encountered at the end of the 70's with the Ayatollah in Iran. Now he's stuck with a pile of "doggone it" and can't get rid of it. McCain thinks the best solution is to keep up the war for another 100 years without any accountability, only body-bags.

I for one am sick of that style of government and this election is my chance to change things.

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I remember a time when we would go to the polls and voted for someone we believed in, trusted, respected. Candidates who stood to be elected felt it was below them to smear their opponents. Doing that was akin to smearing themselves, doing away with their pride. Pride in themselves, their party, the people they wish to represent, their fellow men, all they stand for. Isn't it about time we re-examine the way we choose our leaders? Fighting dirty is the way so many administrators get into office. The money and the rhetoric, the fake arguments, the mud slinging. In the end it is the challenge, the appeal to the intelligence of the people who decide the outcome. God Bless America.

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Yawn USAkuma Yawn...

He has single-handedly destroyed the economy(Reps want to blame Dems during Clinton's time, but Bush had 8 years to notice and didn't) Cant call something single handed when 536 other people are involved in running the country.. it just is a stupid statement.

Im no Bush fan and I didnt vote for him, but you cant blame everything on one guy, sorry but all those other guys have more voting power then him..

Funny I reread my post and in my post I was countering those who say Bill Ayers isnt a terrorist. I never said Bush was anything and I also defended Obama that Obama wasnt a terrorist, but your post reflects what I said before,,,, if Obama didnt have Bush to talk about he wouldnt even be a candidate, his whole platform is bashing Bushes just like yours...

Bush sucks get over it.. Instead of watching your rear view mirror you all should be looking at the windshield, maybe you would see the the Candidates we have running right now are no better then what we are leaving....... Everyone says the one group is trying to distract the voter but hell its both groups doing it so no one will actually pay attention to what is the real problems.......

Flame your self silly, but if you actually took ten minutes of non partisan view you would see both of these two are so full of it they smell.... Basing your vote on either of them is voting for a group of people who have to twist the truth to win...

www.factcheck.org

Enjoy your vote, but it isnt a vote for change its a vote for change of face not policy... one man doesnt change anything in Washington...... other then a new tenant in the white house....

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zurc - "if the republicans could achieve mediocrity that would be a vast improvement to pure failure in the last eight years"

You must have missed the first seven years - heck, even Alan Greenspan said on more than one ocassion during the Bush dictatorship that the U.S. economy had been performing "remarkably well."

Oh no, just realized this is the thread is about Obama's former association with a former terrorist...

Well, it looks like the next U.S. president is going to be a man who associated with a former terrorist and listened to hateful sermons by a hateful pastor for years, not to mention having no previous executive experience. Incredible...

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Nippon5,

I don't think I'm grasping at any straws here and I don't mind that you disagree.

The one thing that I believe to be absolutely false in your statement is that Ayers is a terrorist. Ayers is not a terrorist. For sake of argument we can say that he was a terrorist, but he is not now a terrorist.

It is true that we use "is" as a matter of convenience. We say for example, that Charles Manson is a murderer (even though there is no evidence that he actually killed anyone) because we wish to connote that he is one scary dude. We refer to a newly convicted person or to an incarcerated person as a murderer for the purpose of describing the crime for which they are being punished--even if they did not actually commit it. Many refer to O.J. as a murderer because of the lingering suspicion that he got away with something. We do not, however, call Laura Bush a murderer (although she actually did kill someone) because there was no charge and presumably no premeditation.

There is a convenience in all of this, but there is also an error. And the error consists in trying to make the label stick in situations where it has no applicability. And the error derives from assuming that once a person is a thing then forever after he will be that thing. If that's true, however, I'm still a smoker, the governor of California is a non-American and William Shatner is still Captain Kirk.

Obama had no known association with Ayers while Ayers had any nexus of connection to terrorism or terrorist organizations. Thus Palin's statement makes use of a common way of speaking to tell a pernicious lie. Yes, it is convenient and simple to say that Obama pals around with terrorists, but we should beware of the simple lest we all become simpletons.

Thanks for the definitions from Websters. I really didn't need them. I'll use any definition that you offer. I simply pointed out that in your previous offer, Ayers did not qualify as a one who targeted non-combatants. You want to use a new definition, fine?

Under your new definition I have absolutely no problem saying that Ayers was a terrorist. Of course, one man's terrorist would still be another man's freedom fighter. Under your definition, America was founded in terrorism and shame on old Sam Adams for destroying all the tea that survived such long and perilous ocean voyages!

Under almost any definition, barring exemptions for successful freedom fighters (oops! not Castro or Mao), from 1948 till his death Menachem Begin would have been a terrorist, too. I'm assuming that death allows us to change "is" to "was" where mere cessation of behavior does not.

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I may be going out on a limb here but I truly believe that Obama and his wife have a deep-seated resentment toward white Americans. Look at some of his bedfellows. I believe his ultimate goal is to bring America to her knees. Sound paranoid? So be it. I call 'em like I see 'em.

On the other hand I'm afraid the war hawk, McCain, will drag us deeper and deeper into brush wars without end. But, he is the lesser of two evils.

I think he's absolutely serious in his beliefs but he has been brainwashed by his forebears and the Academy.

We need a president that keeps us on the defensive with a strong military force but doesn't meddle in the internal affairs of the rest of the world.

I'm 79 and a great part of those years my country has been at war. In my opinion, since WWII none of those have been justified and I was in the service during two of them. I don't regret my time and would do it again. Even if you start a fight which you know is wrong you don't just throw down your arms and walk away. Eventually you'll find yourself standing alone, e.g., allies pulling out of Afghanistan.

Nevertheless, I hope McCain gets the oval office and we'll see what the next four years bring.

We're due for a pax-Americana.

By the way, one of the biggest mistakes our stupid gov't made was to alienate Castro. They were standing right behind him during his war against Bautista.

Again by the way, 58 percent of polled Americans want to dump our entire stupid congress into the trash. That should send a message to Washington.

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kjunluc2 - I agree with the first paragraph of your post. But then this:

"We need a president that keeps us on the defensive"

Good grief, man! Play only defensive against these wacko extremists? The only reason we haven't suffered another attack since 9/11 is that we have gone after the terrorists. Obama would rather sit down with them or their representatives, than go after them. They are salivating at the prospect of an Obama win. And if Obama wins, they'll be laughing at us.

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kjunluc2,

Hopefully, for us your dream will not happen. There are probably more racists in the Republican party than in the Democratic. Considering your age and generation I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't have a couple of racist values. If Obama and his wife do have some resentment it is certainly justified. Think about what America and White Americans have done to Black people. Do you believe that was a farce like the holocaust? They were wide spread instances less than 50 years. Even still to this day covertly. Besides, have you seen some of his family friends not the associates people are fussing about. His close family friends are 30-40% white. Do you think he is trying to know the enemy better?

What makes him better than McCain is that he can move beyond those personal issues. He has a history of helping folks. McCain has a history of (Sarge's mediocrity).

Do you want the country to be run by a Warhawk who graduated 894 out of 899 in his military class. A person who crashed 5 jets. Someone who's captured was probably due to his own incompetents. That doesn't have the makings of a great leader in any situation. Especially military!!!

Personal life he left his disabled wife for rich young girl to help him get into politics. What does that say about his character? He is shallow and selfish. Does that make for a good leader?

I think alot of White America don't want to be believe that there are African American out there that have their #$%^ together. Especially when alot of White America don't. It is hard for them to believe they are messed up like the minorities they always put down to justify their own worth. They would also like to keep the class system as they are. "White priviledge" can only save so many mediocre people for so long. Minorities are working hard to live the American dream like White Americans. Especially African Americans because they also helped to build this Nation. (Literally!!!)

Good luck Obama!!!! I hope he brings back the moral, honor, respect and greatness that so many countries around world use to strive to emulate.

Obama08'

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Sezwho2

I knew you stood off of center on politics, but I didnt know you had such a "ghetto" view of police officers, bombing buildings, and causing terror on innocent people who worked in those buildings. Based on what you say then because OBL didnt actually do the attacks on all those innocents, or he was targeting what he considered to be combantants that he isnt a terrorist and he shouldnt be brought to justice... You cant have it two differnet ways..

Once a terorist always a terrorist, once you kill you are a killer, it doesnt matter if you did it when young or old... In 2004 he and his present wife said they wish they would of bombed more buildings, so he and she still feels that it was all right to do....

Please dont think I care if Obama sleeps with this guy or not, but to call this guy anything other then the thug terrorist he was is just foolish.. dont defend the idiot he did what he did and has to live with that label his whole life.

Maybe you should ask the wife and kids of the police officer that was killed if they feel he is a terrorist....?

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Nippon5,

May I retort in kind?

I knew you stood apart from the average in your discussion skills, but I didn't know that you would pejorate those with whom you are having a discussion, put words into their mouths, rely on faulty logic to attempt to make your point and avoid the points that your fellow discussant is making.

Where do you now get the idea that I have a "ghetto" view of police officers, bombing buildings and causing terror. Maybe you didn't know I had one because I don't. What specifically in my previous post caused you to change your mind? Or is this a slur to distract from the points I made?

OBL is not really the topic here, but there is nothing in what I have said that implies that OBL is not a terrorist or that he should not be brought to justice. If you can point to something specifically, bring it on. OBL is a committed and active terrorist. He was one before 9/11 (for which he is not wanted by the FBI), he was one during 9/11 and he has been and continues to be one to the present day. He does not call himself a terrorist but he admits to doing those things which meet our definitions of terrorism.

According to your latest working definition of terrorism, Ayers was certainly a terrorist up to the time that the bomb exploded and killed his main squeeze, he was one for a period after that time, and then he wasn't. It is true only momentarily that once you kill you are a killer. What is abidingly true is that once you have killed you have been a killer.

What he and his present wife said in 2004 does not mean the he now thinks it was all right to do what he did over 35 years ago. It means only that given they had done those things they wished they had done more. I don't think you have any basis for suggesting that Ayers now believes it was all right to have done those things or that he now wishes that he could now do more (for there is nothing stopping him) or that he thinks it is all right for people to blow up buildings where his children may happen to be at work or at study.

You yourself said it--

...to call this guy anything other then the thug terrorist he was...

I've added the emphasis there.

When you elect to epitomize Ayers as a terrorist in the present because of his actions in the past, that is an example of the convenience that I was talking about in my previous post. That's sloppy but it is in accordance with common usage. However, when Palin claims that Obama "pals around" with terrorists, that is a deception and a smear. It is even a lie. Not only did Obama not "pal around" with Ayers (do you pal around with people 17 years older than you? did you do that when you were in your 20s or 30s?), but Ayers was certainly not a practicing terrorist when Obama was associating with him.

Some people can look beyond labels. Some people cannot. We need a president who can.

As for the police officer that was killed, I'd really like to have a link for that. Nonetheless, wouldn't you think I'd get a biased response if I were to ask his family whether they feel that Ayers is a terrorist? I might as well ask survivors of civilian victims of US missile strikes whether they feel Bush is a terrorist. Perhaps the wife and kids aren't the most objective source.

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I may be going out on a limb here but I truly believe that Obama and his wife have a deep-seated resentment toward white Americans. Look at some of his bedfellows.

I am more inclined to believe Obama merely saw those people as ladders to climb, as politicians tend to view us all. --Cirroc

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In 2004 he and his present wife said they wish they would of bombed more buildings, so he and she still feels that it was all right to do....

Bad enough that you have so many double standards. Now you are just plain lying. --Cirroc

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Sorry cavemanlawyer I meant 2001 it was a typo.. Heres a link so you can read about it..

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63

and in 2004 interview he said I don’t think what we did was extreme…. We didn’t cross lines that were completely unacceptable. I don’t think so. We destroyed property in a fairly restrained level, given what we were up against.

Much of the controversy about Ayers during the decade since the year 2000 stems from an interview he gave to The New York Times on the occasion of the memoir's publication.[19] The reporter quoted him as saying "I don't regret setting bombs" and "I feel we didn't do enough", and, when asked if he would "do it all again" as saying "I don't want to discount the possibility."[14]

Now cave man I seem to have the proof so is it still a lie and I dont have a double standard you just dont have any standards?

As far as Sezwho2

I dont want to belittle you (so please dont do it to me) nor do I ignore what you wrote ( I just dont see the point in arguing about your personal beliefs, right or wrong) , I agree with the majority of your statement but, I can not acquiesce with you on the point he isnt still of the same mind he was then....To do so would be to go against what he says off the cuff, I know he corrects his statements after he is called on them, but what he has said since that time in interviews and books points to a tendency to perfer a violent solution to a nonviolent one if it gets the job done

Here is a link to the Bank robbery his group committed and killed in cold blood two police officers

www://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinksrobbery(1981)

Sezwho2 said: In the eyes of the Weathermen, I think the police were the enemy. This doesn't excuse anything the Weathermen did and it doesn't make them any less "terrorists" for practical purposes, but it does suggest that it doesn't quite fit your reference--which by the way does not make the specific claim that Ayers was a terrorist.

Ayers did not qualify as a one who targeted non-combatants

The one thing that I believe to be absolutely false in your statement is that Ayers is a terrorist. Ayers is not a terrorist

But this is truely enough said on this subject...

Ill repost what I said before since everyone only reads the parts they can fight with....

Obama isnt a terroist hes the next worse thing-------- a Politician.....they kill millions and rob everyone blind and yet you still pay them and call them the next savior....

Funny I reread my post and in my post I was countering those who say Bill Ayers isnt a terrorist. I never said Bush was anything and I also defended Obama that Obama wasnt a terrorist, but your post reflects what I said before,,,, if Obama didnt have Bush to talk about he wouldnt even be a candidate, his whole platform is bashing Bushes just like yours...

Dont get me wrong I want to have change, I think Bush is an Idiot, I think Obama has many good points, I also see McCain has good points, But that has nothing to do with why we have to change the history of a terrorist in order to make a candidate seem cleaner... I dont think Obama is a terrorist, I think he just likes those with an extreme view, same as McCain just the other extreme.

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Maybe in the end Governor Palin's defense will be moot:

Judge Orders Obama to Produce Birth Certificate 2 Days, 4 Hours ago

"ORDERED that the Motion to Dismiss pursuant to F.R.C.P. 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6) is DENIED.

It is further ORDER of this Court that the following discovery is to be turned over to Plaintiff within three (3) days:

Obama's "vault" version (certified copy of his "original" long version) Birth Certificate; and

A certified copy of Obama's Certification of Citizenship;

A Certified copy of Obama's Oath of Allegiance.

It is so ordered"

http://www.heraldextra.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,558/func,view/ id,397911/catid,2/

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Even if you start a fight which you know is wrong you don't just throw down your arms and walk away.

My father served in the South Pacific during WWII, and the way I was raised, yes, you do.

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The simple fact is that Palin has already repeated deliberate lies about Obama - the "94 tax increases" lie, for example - and so why should anyone take her seriously now. The woman's a joke

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Helter Skelter - please, never EVER stop posting. Your characature of a crazy right-winger cheers me up on the saddest and dullest days.

The red-under-the-bed paranoia, the unquestioning support for cartoon character nuts like Sarah Palin and your annoyance at the "leftist media" in the US (!!!) are collectively hilarious to anyone with adult notions of politics. Brilliant.

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So.. lemme get this straight.. Palin gets to have a field day taking a "lipstick on a pig" metaphor out of context ..but no one dares ask her what she means callling him a terrorist (cuz of an association from.. his.. ancient history to someone.. at a point before they were even an ecoterrorist).. and no one says much.

Also.. isn't she the one who tried tusseling biden about looking back instead of forward.. only to rifle through Obama's yearbook and find this guy xD. Next she'll be talking about that outfit he wore while in Kenya.

Seriously, though. The guy denounces the activities of said associates (he's only got Micheal, and his parents left un denounced, at this point). Big deal. He's a former colleague of someone who blew up some grass.. meanwhile, you married a successionist. Who cares? Neither person matters.

Talk about your positions on the issues, Sarah, and say them in your own words, if you please.

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The simple fact is that Palin has already repeated deliberate lies about Obama - the "94 tax increases" lie, for example - and so why should anyone take her seriously now. The woman's a joke

It was 95, wasn't it, Front? ;)

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Senator Obama's two autobiographies or memoirs make no mention of Bill Ayers. Yet this is a man he has known for over twenty years and from whose home Obama launced his political career. Why is he so intent on hiding past associations from voters?

Bill Ayers, long after he was a failed terrorist and on the lam for over decade still described himself as follows:

"A radical, Leftist, small 'c' communist."

"Rather than focusing on anything as mundane as math or reading, the job of teachers, said Ayers, is to "teach against oppression."

Ayers "downplayed achievement tests in favor of activism," writes Stanley Kurtz, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.

"Ayers wrote that teachers should be community organizers dedicated to provoking resistance to American racism and oppression," reports Kurtz. "He believes teacher education programs should serve as 'sites of resistance' to an oppressive system."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/s_591517.html

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Why should Gov. Palin have to "defend" something that is fact but that the media is determined to keep from the voting public?

Here is more PROOF that the Obama - Ayers relationship goes way back.

University of Chicago Chronicle Nov. 6, 1997 Vol. 17, No. 4

...William Ayers, author of A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court (Beacon Press, 1997), says "We should call a child a child. A 13-year-old who picks up a gun isn't suddenly an adult. We have to ask other questions: How did he get the gun? Where did it come from?"

[...] Ayers will be joined by Sen. Barack Obama, Senior Lecturer in the Law School, who is working to combat legislation that would put more juvenile offenders into the adult system; Randolph Stone, Director of the Mandel Legal Aid Clinic; Alex Correa, a reformed juvenile offender who spent seven years in Cook County Temporary Detention Center; Frank Tobin, a former priest and teacher at the Detention Center who helped Correa; and Willy Baldwin, who grew up in public housing and is currently a teacher at the Detention Center.

[...]

One hundred years later, the system is "overcrowded, under-funded, over-centralized and racist," Ayers said.

Michelle Obama, Associate Dean of Student Services and Director of the University Community Service Center, hopes bringing issues like this to campus will open a dialogue between members of the University community and the broader community.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml

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Sorry cavemanlawyer I meant 2001 it was a typo.. Heres a link so you can read about it..

A typo? No, I knew what year you were talking about. But are you saying Ayers said something he did not say. It is a lie. I know, I know, that a journalist grabbed two separate sentences out of an interview and strung them together in an intentional effort to mislead you. So maybe I should not call you a liar, but rather a fool? Look closely:

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.''

I am a fairly liberal guy, and I am telling you, beware of the press. If they give you short choppy quotes, discount them immediately. Or, remain a fool, and revel in it like you are reading some tabloid crap. Just know who you are and don't pretend to be otherwise.

We didn’t cross lines that were completely unacceptable. I don’t think so. We destroyed property in a fairly restrained level, given what we were up against. **

Do you know about the statue he blew up.....twice? That is on the level of a prank. A very dangerous prank, but still a prank. And one with a message. His target would seem to always be property. Meanwhile, the government was playing Russian Roulette with the lives of teenagers! If nobody ever died on account of the Weatherman Underground, I could not support them enough, at least in the early days.

But lets talk about the Brinks robbery. It happened in 1981. Ayers turned himself in to the authorities in 1980 and left the club. Interesting timing. Are you holding Ayers in some way responsible for the Brinks robbery, because I am thinking he might have had nothing to do with it.

If he didn't, that leaves Ayers possibly responsible for one death and a serious maiming, two policemen in San Fransisco. But it seems the whole thing was planned and done by Dohrn, not Ayers. Further, the target was not human life, unlike how the U.S. government was operating.

Maybe you like to forget the fact that Americans were dying in a useless war after being frog marched to Vietnam. Maybe you like to forget that Americans were fleeing to Canada to avoid that fate, while the U.S. government plodded along heedless to the complaints of the lives it was trampling. Peaceful protests were not working, not with regard to Vietnam and not with regard to civil rights for blacks. Do you honestly expect no one to even target property in such a situation? I find that attitude to be wholly unAmerican, so I ask you. When can the U.S. government be so wrong that its people blow up tea and throw the Pentagon into Boston Harbor? --Cirroc

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Do you know about the statue he blew up.....twice?

I am slapping myself. Ayers participated. He did not do that himself. --Cirroc

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Nippon5,

I appreciate that you took the time to write a response to each point.

However, you are wrong.

I support Obama because of his character and political platform. Almost the same as mine, except I am publicly pro gay marriage. Apparently, millions and millions of not only Americans, but people all over the world feel the same way. Please don't tell me I like this guy because Bush has done a poor job.

Also, it's "Democrat" with no "e."

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S,o the guy who, heh, didn't know he was in the living room of a domestic terrorist is now applying for the job to protect all of us Americans from terrorists?

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Palin. Good for the base.

Good for her. America is not fooled.

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I am happy to see Sarah Palin the Republican VP candidate. Palin spells the end of the Republican cohesiveness. Palin's position as VP illustrates that the Republican Guard have, as I have pointed out over the past years, taken over the party.

The more she gibbers, winks and lies, the more clear it becomes: the lunatics are in charge of that asylum.

Everytime Palin goes out there, everyone can see on full display how the anti-intellectual, anti-elite, anti-science, ant-Liberal (with a capital L) populist Right has turned against Washington and Wall Street. The Republican alliance is shattered.

Palin's ascendancy marks how the Republicans have turned themselves primarily into a regional party . Obama's and the Democrats current lead in Virginia is reflective of the larger demographic trends in America.

And Republicans, with their entrenchment to the white Right, show how they are on the wrong side of the demographic trends in America.

Ironic that the Right, who reject evolution, are falling prey to one of its lesson's: Yesterdays advantage can turn to today's burden. Just like the Mamoth's oversized tusks. The Republican stranglehold on small town conservatisim has turned out to be small town conservatism's stranglehold on the party.

We are on the verge of a new Center/Left Coalition. The Reagan Revolution has run its course. Right into a ditch. I'm lovin it.

Its a good time to be an American. Our long national nightmare is drawing to a close.

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S,o the guy who, heh, didn't know he was in the living room of a domestic terrorist is now applying for the job to protect all of us Americans from terrorists?

Same old rightie tactics. Just keep throwing the word "terrorist" out there in the hope it will stick. Never mind critical thought or nearly 200 posts on the subject.... somebody has a Republican play book of smear tactics to play with. --Cirroc

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Nippon5,

The Brinks Robbery was in 1981. Ayers turned himself into the authorities in 1980. There is no connection between Ayers and the Brinks Robbery that does not also exist between Sam Adams and the invasion of Iraq.

You choose to call Ayers a terrorist because you say his views are substantially the same as they were previously. I say that if they were, he could be arrested and tried for treason. And I say he is not now a terrorist because he does not now engage in or support domestic terrorism. What hasn't changed so much, is his view on what is wrong with the US.

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Sarah Palin is still being vilified on a daily basis by the liberals, yet when she counter attacks with stating the truth about Barak Obama, she is further ridiculed. She cant win in the eyes of the liberals, of course. No matter what she says, she will always be wrong to them. However, the fact remains that many people in America and around the world respect and admire her - a woman not afraid to speak out. The truth is that Barak Obama WAS palsy-walsy with this terrorist lefty guy.

Of course, its all politics, but please lets not ifnore the truth. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

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Obamas only executive experience is running a 100 million dollar "education" project funded by the Annenberg foundation together with Bill Ayers. In terms of school performance it was a flop, in terms of personal gains for Obama and Bill Ayers a spectacular success. If the media showed any interest in investigating Obamas background, there would be plenty of this to shine light one. But of course, there is zilch interest. They are much too busy bashing Palin.

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Where do get that they were pals? They worked on reform for inner city schools. They worked on a bill together. Not everyone who works together to make a change are pals. So I get confused when this gets brought up. Palin is just telling half truths. That seems to be the new plan. It seems like they have to try and do this low ball stuff because when it comes to real issues they can't talk. If they stick to the problems and how they are going to fix them then there will not be a chance in hell for them.

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I think some of you underestimate the damage Ayers did. Do some more research. And this Obama is great at hanging around people for years and then now denouncing them close to an election. Palin is not only not wrong in bringing up associations, she isn't going far enough in getting Obama to explain more his association with ACORN, who they really are, and their impact on the current financial crisis. Palin isn't hitting hard enough.

Dan Manjt, intellectuals and elites don't always make the right decisions, but on the other hand, some of them smile and wink too.

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yasukuni,

That's what debates are all about. If these are important issues and you want to hear Obama explain them, write to John McCain and demand that he actually confront him on these things instead of being a weasel.

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SezWho2:

" write to John McCain and demand that he actually confront him on these things instead of being a weasel. "

Each time they do, they get accusations of "character attacks" and "racism" in return. So, damned if you do, damned if you don´t.

Completely different rules for the other side, of course. Don´t you love double standards?

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Palin is doing what the republicans are good at - dirty tricks and mud-slinging. Remember - Bush won governor of TX because of lies they spread about Ann Richards by leaving pamphlets on car windshields at churches. McCain in office will be more of the same as Bush - bailing out the wealthy. Don't be fooled.

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WilliB,

McCain has not confronted Obama about this even one time. So to say this happens "each time" is vacuous.

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For supporters of Palin, I can only feel bad for you. She tries to simplify things, when life isn't simple. I feel bad for McCain, he is lost...

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the October Surprise the DNC has foisted on America

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/this_could_be_the_game_changer.html

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Desperation.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Or, just look at factcheck.org for the birth certificate issue.

And as for the Indonesia argument, can Berg demonstrate that the school Obama attended would not have allowed Obama to attend just because his father was Indonesian?

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palin was merely stating the truth. I cannot believe how many people defend a candidate who is in league with a terrorist who wanted to destroy the American way. Obama supports Acorn, who have enlisted thousands of homesless to bote multiple times for Obama. One homeless man on Fox News stated that he had voted 72 times for payment from Acorn Obama supports Acorn, he is not fit to be my president.

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I'm satisfied that Obama was born in Hawaii, making him eligible to run for president. There is no evidence to the contrary.

I'm not satisfied that he is the better choice over John McCain.

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Palin the real "domestic terrorist" pal !!!!

Maybe someone she read up on HER record of "pallin' around" with the late Joe Vogler. and the Alaska Independence Party whom she gave a shout out to during the VP debate.

“My government is my worst enemy. I’m going to fight them with any means at hand.” This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.

Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that’s the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. (“Keep up the good work,” Palin told AIP members. “And God bless you.”)

AIP chairwoman Lynette Clark said recently that Sarah Palin is her kind of gal. “She’s Alaskan to the bone … she sounds just like Joe Vogler.”

So who are these America-haters that the Palins are pallin’ around with?

The AIP was born of the vision of “Old Joe” Vogler, a hard-bitten former gold miner who hated the government of the United States almost as much as he hated wolves and environmentalists. His resentment peaked during the early 1970s when the federal government began installing Alaska’s oil and gas pipeline. Fueled by raw rage — “The United States has made a colony of Alaska,” he told author John McPhee in 1977 — Vogler declared a maverick candidacy for the governorship in 1982. Though he lost, Old Joe became a force to be reckoned with, as well as a constant source of amusement for Alaska’s political class. During a gubernatorial debate in 1982, Vogler proposed using nuclear weapons to obliterate the glaciers blocking roadways to Juneau. “There’s gold under there!” he exclaimed.

Vogler made another failed run for the governor’s mansion in 1986. But the AIP’s fortunes shifted suddenly four years later when Vogler convinced Richard Nixon’s former interior secretary, Wally Hickel, to run for governor under his party’s banner. Hickel coasted to victory, outflanking a moderate Republican and a centrist Democrat. An archconservative Republican running under the AIP candidate, Jack Coghill, was elected lieutenant governor.

Hickel’s subsequent failure as governor to press for a vote on Alaskan independence rankled Old Joe. With sponsorship from the Islamic Republic of Iran, Vogler was scheduled to present his case for Alaskan secession before the United Nations General Assembly in the late spring of 1993. But before he could, Old Joe’s long, strange political career ended tragically that May when he was murdered by a fellow secessionist. Yes murdered.

Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, “When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don’t have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we’re ready to die.”

This quote is from “Coming Into the Country,” by John McPhee, who traipsed around Alaska’s remote gold mining country with Vogler for his 1991 book. The violent-tempered secessionist vowed to McPhee that if any federal official tried to stop him from polluting Alaska’s rivers with his earth-moving equipment, he would “run over him with a Cat and turn mosquitoes loose on him while he dies.”

Vogler wasn’t just a blowhard either. He put his secessionist ideas into action, working to build AIP membership to 20,000 — an impressive figure by Alaska standards — and to elect party member Walter Hickel as governor in 1990.

Vogler’s greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States “tyranny” before the entire world and to demand Alaska’s freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.

That’s right … Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran.

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not4palin,

Thanks for the Salon article. I enjoyed the read. Next time could you attribute your sources?

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