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Biden, Palin spar over Iraq, economy in debate

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I think Palin should be able to convince voters easily since Bush did it during his election campaign.

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The American people ... the more they see of her, the more they love her, and I’m confident of that at the end.

Maybe at the end. But so far, the more they have seen the less they have loved--if loving means believing in her ability to do the job. This either leaves McCain with a nonsense statement or with a serious case of pushing hope against fact.

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She's lost so many points for herself due to her dumb statements that she's lost 12 point in just days.

McCain has lost over 5 points, depending on the polls.

Palin could single handedly sink her party's team. < :-)

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David Letterman says it best -

TOP TEN THINGS OVERHEARD AT PALIN DEBATE CAMP:

"Let's practice your bewildered silence."

"Can you try saying 'yes' instead of 'you betcha'?"

"Hey, I can see Mexico from here!"

"Maybe we'll get lucky and there won't be any questions about Iraq, taxes or healthcare."

"We're screwed!"

"Can I just use that lipstick-pit bull thing again?"

"We have to wrap it up for the day -- McCain eats dinner at 4:30."

"Can we get Congress to bail us out of this debate?"

"John Edwards wants to know if you'd like some private tutoring in his van."

"Any way we can just get Tina Fey to do it?"
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adaydream - "Palin could single handedly sink her party's team."

That's what I think the big fear is. A bad performance by Palain could derail mccain's campaign.

Oh, that's implying his campaign hasn't already gone off the rails, and considering he has just surrendered his campaigning in Michigan, that would be a stretch.

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Get ready for some dull, dull rehearsed lines. This woman has little going on upstairs

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Sarah Palain has effectively been told what to think, what her views are and where she stands on the issues.

Maybe easier just to hire a robot?

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SushiSake3 - nice list. Did you see the segment they had on reviewing how Bush had done on his pre-election promises? That was pretty funny too!

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You don't need to 'convince' the brainwashed of anything... they're as dull upstairs as Palin is herself.

Sushi: You're 100% right... she has next to nothing going on in her head, and can only regurgitate what papa bird has shoved down her throat. I'm willing to bet she doesn't answer any of Biden's questions or attacks but merely changes topics and tries to spin things in a different direction. There's an element of that in ANY good debate, but hers, I'm sure, will be this and nothing but, and not in a clever fashion at all but how she was told. In fact, she's probably wound so tight if you asked her name she would say, "I live close to Russia!"

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what magazines do you read? "all of them" must be why she has so little time to answer questions

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Sushi: "A bad performance by Palain could derail mccain's campaign."

I think PICKING Palin de-railed McCain's campaign already. The woman simply isn't fit to be a stand-in president of the U.S., no way. I think that in all honesty Republicans already know this.

As they say, though, people expect so little of Mrs "four-questions-from-the-press-so-far" that not tripping up will be a sort of victory for her.

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Remember the movie "Hoosiers"? No? You have to be careful with people who seem to be clearly outclassed. There's always something that has brought them as far as they've gone.

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I'm watching it now. Hey Palin is one clever woman, and she's got style. She is easily winning the dabate, looks like it's going to be a big boost in the polls for McCain.

Great news for the country.

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Someone should tell Palin to stop pronouncing Iraq as "Eyeraq."

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Let's have some decent adult debatr Razor. The worlds future lays in the hands of these folks and their supporters.

Biden is very nervous and does not have the ability to defend himself from Palins attacks. looks very good for the McCain cammpaign. Guess all the doubters have been prove wrong, Palin is na great choice for VP.

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I won't count Palin out automatically. She will try to egg Biden into making an attack that she will say (later) is domineering and sexist. Biden's also known for his gaffes. If Palin can get him to throw one of those out, she'll be able to pick up the win.

As Time.com says, Biden needs to reign himself in, while Palin needs to work to make herself look knowledgable. Wish I could watch these debates live, too...

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Blimey!!. I reckon it would be bettr if palin let her husband answer the questions for her innit!

When he done his Monty Python stuff, i was in stitches. He would make a great Vice President. Palin loks alright, i mean, she's not an old frump is she?

but does she really know what she is talking about, or has she just been revising answers like a schoolkid for exams.

Strewth, America needs decent leaders, not a bunch of nutters, after all.

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If McCain dies in office, which given his age is possible, Palin would be president. Just take a step back and ask if a Governor with this little experience is then a good person to have as a president. I mean really think about it. Someone with zero foreign policy experience, zero congressional experience and very little leadership experience over anything approaching the requirements of a president.

This is a VERY SCARY SCENARIO.

Thankfully I think she will self destruct and take out McCain with her.

But after 2004, I have very little faith in the intelligence and judgement of the American voter. Afterall Bush was elected twice and has nearly wiped the nation off the map with bad leadership. But then again the flyover states seem to like the whole down home charm of useless politicians.

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tkoind2- She is a vry sensible and intelligent woman. All presidents have advisors to aasist them. How do you thing a dumb guy like Clinton managed to survive?

She reminds me of the great Mrs Thatcher, a strong intelligent woman, not scared to fight tooth and nail for the good of the country she loves.

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If you want Marge from "Fargo" a heartbeat away from the presidency, then vote for McCain, doggone it!

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tkoind2 - not to mention the fact that she's been too busy giving birth to her brood of Christian soldiers to get any further than Canada and Mexico on her travels. Ignorant is probably not too strong a word.

For goodness' sake, America! How big a hint do you need that this woman is a loser and that John McCain is even more so for having chosen her?

At the very least, you can't say that Obama-Biden actually set out to insult your intelligence

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I don't know. I just don't want to spend another 4 years hearing about "NUKE-ular" weapons from the Executive Branch.

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MrDickMorris. "The great Mrs.Thatcher" You are kidding right?!? Fighting tooth and nail for the rich while caring zero for the average UK worker. She was as much a dictatorial nightmare as England could have imagined.

Palin if a frightening reactionary with a hard core right wing fundamentalist bend. Her policies would lead us to a second American civil war as those of us living in the 21st century fight to retain our freedom from those like Palin living in the 2nd century.

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The only thing that 'impressed' me about Palin was she did not make any obvious dumb blundering statements. But at times she did not fully answer the question from the moderator or Biden's challenges. And after a while listening to Palin's voice really got annoying, she simply does not have that debating experience and instinct like Biden does. It seems like she was saying the same words and phrases and expressions and tones all throughout.

Biden wins this by a landslide, knowledgable on the issues.

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frontandcentre- From your comments, i would assume you did not view the debate. Palin came across as highli intelligent and classy, Biden showed he is an old fogey living in the past.

The future is bright, the future is McCain, Palin.

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MrDickMorris - are you really calling Rhodes Scholar Bill Clinton "dumb" after 8 years of Bush, who can scarcely string a coherent sentence together, not to mention imposed some of the dumbest policies ever?

Sorry - I took you seriously there for a minute....very funny!

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If Palin/McCain are the future it will be a short one. She's already trying to start up a new cold war with Russia. And McCain will go off to war with Iran and bring the whole of the middle east to conflict. Not to mention their disregard for the environment and global warming. Or their inability to manage the economy. Or, or, or....

If they are elected we will have to quote the great REM "It's the end of the world as we know it..." And start preparing for the inevitable civil war that will be necessary to retain any hope of liberty, freedom, privacy, peace and environmental intelligence in America.

Funny the 1st civil war followed the 1st idiot president Buchanan. Seems appropriate that a 2nd one would follow the term of the greatest idiot president in all of history G.W.Bush.

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Well, Palin didn't make any of the stupid gaffes I was expecting, and was more composed than I have previously given her credit for, but that's not saying much. As predicted she veered off the topic time and time again to rehash things from her campaign speech, saying only "We will change government and ween the US of foreign energy dependence", but of course never HOW.

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frontandcentre- I am sure am calling Clinton dumb, and also a guy without morals, who spent half his time with his pants round his ankles.

You don`t hear similar stories about Bush, nor Palin and McCain.

Palin destroyed Biden, i was surprised she had such depth of knowledge, makes you proud to be an American.

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Dick, some of us have to work! I didn't see the debate but I didn't need to. If you think Palin has the experience and knowledge to be VP, you might as well get anyone to do it.

It sounds very much as though Biden did at least attempt to answer the questions. Plainly Palin didn't. If she's such a great communicator, why did she need a script and why has she had 4 direct questions from the press since her nomination? The reason for such evasiveness is plainly obvious - she is likely to shoot herself in the foot at any stage

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It was Biden's debate to lose from the beginning; he did not do that. Palin held her own, displayed her natural charm, used a lot of folksy expressions like "heck of" and "doggone it" to appeal to some folks, I suppose. But she was seriously outclassed on the facts by a veteran politician. Biden went on the offensive against 8 years of George Bush, Dick Cheney, and questioned the "maverick" label about McCain, which worked effectively. If you were a Obama supporter to begin with, I think this debate pretty much settles it for you. If you were on undecided and leaning towards McCain, I think doubts were raised.

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I think MrDickMorris has got it right. Palin showed great knowledge of world affairs, and was very composed. Her statesman like approach and her humble good nature will appeal to all Americans many of whom i am sure will switch alligiance from Obama to Macain.

A mighty impressive performance from Palin. Biden, you were a poor second place dude.

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Sarah Palin got whumped today by Biden

he whipped her in foreign affairs, blew her away on climate change, he had all the numbers at his fingertips, he caned her on diplomacy, he stole the floor when he teared up talking about being a single dad, he hammered her on her and mccain's support for the war (including on strategy) and then he absolutely and totally shredded her continued claims that mccain is a 'maverick.'

She was left speechless.

Granted, she appears a lot more clued up than in previous interviews, but it was starkly obvious when she didn't have any answer - she would just start rambling on about john mccain, being a maverick, Alaska, 'change,' - anything but the topic on hand.

The highlights for me was when Biden ripped into the 'maverick' claim and when Palin - I could not and still can't believe this - came out with bush's classic 'They hate us for our freedoms."

Big win for Biden.

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Amazing how prompters can help. Palin's earpiece did not fall out. Neither did Biden's. Quite a professional performance all round.

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I agree with Noripinhead. We in the US military particularly take exception to Palin's referring to the Obama strategy for the war as "a white flag of surrender". Palin couldn't even remember Gen. McKiernan's name. Clearly a poor choice to be this close to the C-in-C position.

Score another one for Obama/Biden.

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Good day all,

Well I saw the debate and dare I say that I was impressed by Biden and his responses. He went on the offensive here and there and it some homeruns just when he needed to. Example was when Palin tried to use the Soccer Mom raising a child. He struck a hard hit when he revealed that he had to raise 2 kids on his own. That put a stop to that song and dance and got back to the issues. It also put Palin on the defensive she did not have a scripted line for that one. Palin, well she did well if you like scripted responses. I found her to be even more lacking for the big stage. Hell if she was running for mayor of a small city then she did great. But to use slogan and "shoutout" words to get the small town vote, well it did not go over well. Those lines made her look even more scripted. Winner, Biden by far, at least he answered the questions.......
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The prompt feeding Palin the incorrect name for the General was a nice touch. Made her performance far more convincing. Even Biden's jaw dropped in surprise. You could see him thinking something like the following. "How the heck did they get the General's name wrong? Might be a trap. Better not go there."

And Palin carried on completely unaware. My guess is her prompter had a sneer on his face at that point.

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USAFDude- I think your kinda confused buddy. McCain and Palin equals a strong military that will be used effectively in our nations interests.

Palin showed her strength and said it how it is about Obama. Obama wants to leave Iraq the main front on terror. What kind of fool would support such a ludicous suggestion?

Patriotic servicemen with knowledge of world affairs, will be voting for the McCain, Palin ticket.

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Dick, some of us have to work! I didn't see the debate but I didn't need to. If you think Palin has the experience and knowledge to be VP, you might as well get anyone to do it.

It sounds very much as though Biden did at least attempt to answer the questions. Plainly Palin didn't. If she's such a great communicator, why did she need a script and why has she had 4 direct questions from the press since her nomination? The reason for such evasiveness is plainly obvious - she is likely to shoot herself in the foot at any stage

For someone who didn't watch, sure sounds like they know a lot about it.

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McCain/Palin ticket looks alright . Obama/Biden ticket looks somewhat upside down to me.Anyway this Palin have ability to learn extremely fast in just a month or so, imagine her 6 months later! Biden did not win at all despite 35 plus years in politics .The match is about 50/50 I think.

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this is not news, the big news is that mccain is pulling out of michigan cause he is losing in every swing state right now.

Landslide coming. Palin can go back soon to her corrupt state and have more state troopers fired that she does not like.

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Palin showed she can mix it with the big guys. even CNN say that her performance has increased support for her and McCain.

Biden is a dinosaur, his ideas are back with the stone age. The guy didn't debate well, and like Obama

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Palin is clearly folksy trailer trash, not unlike our silver spoon fed current president and his more expensive trailer.

If the American public vote this team into office, the rest of the worl can just write us off as we are going back in time to the days of down home logic and flat earth reasoning.

Moderator: The expression "folksy trailer trash" has no place in an exchange of views among mature readers.

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Biden is a dinosaur

You mean McCain is a dinosaur. HAR!

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Welcome to the most cynical game in the world right now.

The aim is to get the voters to believe they have a democracy, that the Democrats actually offer an alternative to the Republicans.

On more war, more assaults on the living standards of working class Americans (and likely very soon 25% of the middle class will count themselves in the ranks of the working class), and increased attacks on the environment, on just those three fundamental issues alone the policies of the Democrats and the Republicans cannot be separated.

In so far as putting the interests of corporate America first goes, the Democrats and the Republicans stand side by side.

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You know, that no matter which of these two teams you end up with in the White house in November, you can can expect severe slashing of funding for social service, massive increase in unemployment, and the reinstatement of the draft. And on the foreign affairs front you can expect the possibility of armed engagement with a major foreign power or several, and the distinct possibility that the US will turn to nuclear weapons.

Obama and Biden in the White house will not change this course America and the world is on one whit. To see the same posters here deliriously pumping the air for team Obama, in spite of the content of his most recent speeches, his historical record in politics, and the INaction of the Democratic Party that has had so much control of the house during these last years of the Bush administration is nothing short of alarming. Its has the character of a psychosis.

I still expect McCain and Palin to take the election though.

Like I have said here already, the faction of the ruling elite the Republicans represent will not give up their grip on power to risk a shift on the course they have set that country. This faction of the thin layer of wealthy rich ruling America are now heavily influenced by the extreme right and religious fundamentalists, And they are now desperate.

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I disagree fervently with most of what Sarah Palin said. I believe that most of the country disagree with what Palin said. But she sounded pretty good.

No where polished as Joe Biden. And once her mouth started running, I could hear the rush of air toward the stage. (No wonder her husband shoemobiles/machines so much.)

She didn't make the big gaffs I expected. She stayed her party line. And she talked 9 miles a minute. With a lack of inflection.

But Joe Biden won the points. Joe set the record straight where it needed to be righted and Obama/Biden still got my vote.

Wouldn't have changed anyway. < :-)

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What I wanna know is, where are all the locksteppers that said just a few months ago that the economy was great, that under Bush we've grown, just totally ignoring the signs of what was to come? When times seemed good Bush and his tax cuts got all the credit. Now that we're in trouble, it's all Clinton's fault. Which is it? You can't have both. They expect people to believe that they didn't see the trouble coming, yet somehow they know for sure Clinton was at fault? This head in sand mentality is dangerous and McCain is hoping to capitalize on that.

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Love the way the Liberals try to put a positive spin on Bidens shambolic performance. Biden was mumbling almost incoherently, and getting confuse, Palin had him on the ropes a few times. It was great to watch Biden squirm, ha ha.

Palin showed she has the credentials to be VP or even president. Any rright minded moral folk will have no doubts that McCain, Palin is the way forward, for a brighter, better future.

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Look we know that there is not a vast difference between DEMs and GOP when it comes to many issues. But we have to vote one of them in in November and I would rather have someone who knows the world is round instead of flat. The better of two evils.

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even CNN say that her performance has increased support for her and McCain.

True but completely misleading.

Among uncommitted voters who watched the debate:

CBS poll: Biden 46%, Palin 21%, tie 33%.

Among debate watchers:

CNN poll: Biden 51%, Palin 36%.

So while McCain-Palin picked up support, Obama-Biden picked up more.

These instant poll results tend to reinforce the opinions of the undecided, hence so much effort goes into claiming victory (or having a chorus of voices claim victory even if it's just an echo chamber).

For those who've already made up their minds, well debates typically serve to reinforce their existing perceptions as opposed, wonders never cease, to dramatically altering them.

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Palin and BIden would agree in free speech, which would include Mr Obarmy posting his views. Palin seems really down to earth. I think she will pick up a lot of voters who would have voted for Hilary.

F&B

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MrDickMorris - No confusion at all from me. My military colleagues and I are looking forward to President Obama.

Where do you serve?

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USAFDude- Military are not experts in world affairs, as police are not experts in Governmental social issues.

I serve my country and many ex veterens, many disabled mentally and physically gat help from me on a weekly basis. If you mean serve my country, due to a disability i was rejected to serve my country.

Palin won the debate well, and we patriots can all be proud of her. Biden was the one who lacks experience IMHO.

We elect these people to make our policies, McCain and Palin beleieve in supporting our troops, and when they win, their strngth will be shown.

You wouldn'T ask a school teacher to make govt education policy, so why should anyone in service think they have any greater knowledge than myself for example?

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I only caught the tail end of the first McCain/Obama debate and it looked like McCain had Obama on the ropes, going on the offensive with his "Senator Obama just doesn't understand." In this one, however, Biden didn't have to say anything about Palin not understanding because it was so blatantly obvious. At one point she actually said to the moderator, "I may not be answering the question the way you want me to..." And after the debate, she practically crumpled in Biden's arms with a sigh of relief--not exactly the kind of body language you want from a Vice President. Charming person and an excellent soccer mom, I'm sure, but second in line to Leader of the Free World?

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Because we're there, Mr. Morris. As much as we appreciate the help you give to disabled veterans, the cold hard truth is we're there and you're not.

Obama is totally correct to call Afghanistan the central front. Osama bin Laden is still alive, well, and in control of the group that perpetrated 9/11, thus Afghanistan/Pakistan is priority number one, inarguably.

As for your statement:

Obama wants to leave Iraq the main front on terror. What kind of fool would support such a ludicous suggestion?

The answer is - the US military. We forgive you for erroneously calling us "fools".

Military are not experts in world affairs

Neither are you; we're just closer to it, especially people like Gen. McKiernan.

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USAFdude said... Because we're there, Mr. Morris. As much as we appreciate the help you give to disabled veterans, the cold hard truth is we're there and you're not.

UMmm yea your not.. Your just playing a game on the internet is all..

Now on to the debate

If you base the debate on the expectation that Biden (with35 years of goverment leaching) was supose to destroy the (newby hillbilly) Palin, then Biden lost very badly.

If you base it on who was more refined and a better debater it was Biden..

Both said the same lies that they have been telling all along (according to factcheck.org) they stretched the truth a tad too much, and they both answered questions with the same crap they say every time (even though most of it isnt the real truth...once again check fackcheck.org)

If I was to rate it based on actual performance of two equal debaters I would give Biden a (b) and Palin a (c)

If I base it on the knowledge I have of how long they have been debating I would score it a victory to Palin as she didnt do what was expected by all her haters...

All in all it wasnt the funny debate I was hoping for:(

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People need to get off the "stay in Iraq" bandwagon. The Democratically elected government there told us to leave. They said they can take it from here.

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Look the conflict in Afghanistan is where we need to focus our attention and Obama has rightly pointed that out. Iraq was a personal side show by America's worst ever president. An intelligent leader would have leveraged global sympathy and gone after Bin Laden instead of starting a war with people who had zero to do with 911.

As a result he has empowered Iran in the region and failed utterly to do anything significant about Al Quaida or the global terror issue. Except perhaps offering the terroristst the best training facilities money could buy.

And that is before we start talking about failed economic policy and overall domestic denial.

McCain will be more of the same. And our soldiers, citizens and children cannot afford another four years of idiotic leadership. Especially should McCain die and zero experience Palin become a puppet for her advisers.

If Americans are foolish enough to make McCain and Palin president, then the country deserves the economic and social backwardness such a decision will bring. How much flat earth thinking can a nation survive?

McCain and Palin will go down in history as the last straw in the decline of the American Empire. Or Obama and Biden could be the last foothold that kept us out of the Abyss.

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****tkoind2 said... McCain or Obama will be more of the same. And our soldiers, citizens and children cannot afford another four years of idiotic leadership. Especially should McCain die and zero experience Palin become a puppet for her advisers.Or Obama actually go ahead with his plans and bankrupt the US and reverse any gains in Iraq.

If Americans are foolish enough to make McCain and Palin or Obama and Biden President, then the country deserves the economic and social backwardness such a decision will bring. How much flat earth thinking can a nation survive?

McCain and Palin Or Obama and Biden will go down in history as the last straw in the decline of the American Empire.

I agree 100% with this statment as written.. Both groups could destroy the US as bad as if not worse then Bush or Clinton...

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tkoind2- no mentuion of the topic i see, hmmm i see.....

Palin stated her aims, and theya re the aims of all moral Conservatives. McCain and Palin will carry on the good work fighting th war on terror.

Palin stated she supports drilling for oil, hey let's drill, let's end our dependence on mid east oil. Obama doesn't want that.

Biden was stammering and shaking, he couldn't compete in the debate, Palin had him making silly comments. I wouldn't wish Obama and Biden on Iran, let alone the greatest nation on earth.

Palin let Iran know, we support Israel, and will not stand any nonsense from Iran. Obama would "talk" with Iran, quaint but ineffective.

Stay safe and secure, vote McCain and Palin.

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hahah It is funny to hear that McCain Palin is the way for the future.. It does not matter about debates , it does not matter who sounded like what. The facts are we have had the GOP in control for the last two elections (Last Eight years) and we are totally screwed today. Those that would even consider putting these idiots back in another term are living on a different planet.

Want to talk deficits, leave that to Bush Jr., Bush Sr. , Ronald Reagan...

Want to talk international standing, Talk Bush Jr. and our lowest standing in the world since who knows when. Hey where are all our supportive allies in the world today???

This country needs radical changes made and a direction completely opposite the last eight years and even beyond that including Clintons years as well because of his trade policies that had just continued with Bush Jr. and also a continuation with Clinton from previous administrations that has just added to the degrading of our economy and stance in world opinion.

Obama is the only hope the US has in making the changes needed to get the US back as a power and partner of our allies and a country to be looked up to because of our basic ideals that has been politically squandered away out of greed and big corporate interests that has been the main focus of the decisions made that has brought us down to NOTHING!!!!!

What is sad is for some here to look at this in some sort of unrealistic world that does not exist and think more of the same is best as to move forward.. What the heck is wrong with such people??????? Like those of communist China saying hey.. we love China and will support our leaders no matter if we are kept silent or what ever they want to do to us... That is the mentality I see with those that want to side with those that have taken us to our lowest standing in decades! You people deserve to be tossed a bone or doggy treat!

This country needs some drastic changes in direction and the only one that has the real incentive is Obama, he believes in what he says and is determined to make it happen. Those of you who are set in your ways and have been convinced that we are doomed by the rhetoric of national security fears the republican party has played on for so many years now.. do not be afraid… because the largest attack did happen with Bush in office and as his administration ignored Clintons warnings about Alquada and also ignored intelligence reports of about the time period when and how the attack would be carried out.. Now they believe they are the protectors ?????What a friggin joke!!!! The real joke is on those that have eaten this BS up and believe them!

Vote for something different….Vote Obama-Biden!!!!!!

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tkoind2

Look we know that there is not a vast difference between DEMs and GOP when it comes to many issues. But we have to vote one of them in in November and I would rather have someone who knows the world is round instead of flat. The better of two evils.

Well in this case you'd be moving from one of the sinking ship to the other. Better to take another boat.

If change is what you are looking for you won't be getting that with Obama, Biden, and the Democrats. But you would get that if you voted the Socialist Equality Party. http://www.socialequality.com/

Change and a real democracy.

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I wouldn't wish McCain and Palin on Iran, let alone the greatest nation on earth.

Palin let Iran know, she supports Israel, and will probably nuke Iran when she has a particularlly bad time of the month.

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Seem to be doing a lot of back to back posts today.

The first line of my reply above should read as follows.

Well in this case you'd be moving from one end of the sinking ship to the other. Better to take another boat.

And take a look at www.socialequality.com Know you are not going to be lied to there.

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Moral conservatives, read as flat earthers who wish to impose their ideas upon everyone else in the US. What separates this kind of rigid moralist thinking from the kind of rigid moralist thinking we see in the Islamic fundamentalist we are at war with?

America used to stand for tolerance and freedom. It stood by the separation of religious edicts and a securlar society. But Palin and her type would roll us back to a time when faith and faith based morality were legislated and shoved down people's throats.

As for Obama and Iraq. Sooner or later you guys are going to have to let go of Iraq and let Iraqis take responsibility for their own nation. A staged withdrawal is the right plan.

As for bankrupt. We had a budget surplus under Clinton and an economic meltdown under Bush. So who is the danger?

As for Israel vs Iran. By making a conflict with Iran we empower the government there. Had we not gone into Iraq, the democracy movement in Iran would be in better shape today. We have empowered Iran and we will see negative consequences for this. As for Israel, it is time we stopped blindly supporting a nation that practices Apartheid against the native Palistinians. This is the main root of Islamic and middle east hatred for the US. We need to be less black and white about Israel and work to solve the root issues in the region.

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TonyUS Obama is the only hope the US has in making the changes needed to get the US back as a power and partner of our allies and a country to be looked up to because of our basic ideals that has been politically squandered away out of greed and big corporate interests that has been the main focus of the decisions made that has brought us down to NOTHING!!!!!

Yea you said it, he is the only person in the US of A s 250million people who has a chance to change the world... he did such a stellar job so far hasnt he, Im so well off since he became a political person.... Hes made everyone sing we are the world, and all fighting has stopped... Woot Woot Woot..

Now grow up and get real, he is a politician and will not change the US much less the world, he also is just one of 537 people who get to make change (just like he was before when he didnt change anything).. No one person nor political group (who votes 96% the time with his own party) is going to bring a true change. America in general is split almost 50-50 on what they believe in core political values, the world doesnt look at what is good for the US it looks at what is good for them..

Funniest thing I have ever heard "Obama is what we need to change"......hahahahahahaha thats as funny as "McCain is what we need for change" lmao lmao

only change you get from these two is the change of whos butt is sitting at a chair in the white house, and how they are going to help those who helped them get there (and I dont mean the average voter I mean the companies and lobbiest who paid for them to get there)

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http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html

Read it it will explain who is the true "person" who caused the financial problems...

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Fact is, Palin won. Claiming otherwise is sexist.

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As for bankrupt. We had a budget surplus under Clinton and an economic meltdown under Bush. So who is the danger?

Clinton, wasn't that the guy who was president when the banking deregulation bill was passed back in October 1999?

The banking deregulation bill lifted virtually all restraints on giant monopolies that dominated the financial system. That's right, many of those we saw bounce into the headlines a few days back when they went bust, or were bailed out.

It was because of an agreement between the Clinton administration and the congressional Republicans that set the passage for that bill to pass into legislation. How the heck can anyone use Clinton as an example of sound economic management?

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Just what are you suggesting Nippon5? You don't like either but I don't see you offering any solutions either. It is easy to sit back and throw mud if you don't have to offer solutions. So what is your solution? Realistic solution mind you.

Look a 2 party system with corporate dominance isn't democracy. We get that. But within that framework there are things that can be done. Things that can make life better for Joe and Jane average in the US.

It is terribly quaint to think Palin's down home charm is a good motivation to vote for her. But hockey Mom charm won't sort medical coverage for the millions who don't have it. It won't educate children to keep us competitive and won't fix our infrastructure or cure our economy.

We need real, intelligent leadership not some gimmick leader from a state with more bears that people. If you like down home charm you should love the Iranian president. I'm sure to the Iranian equivalent of rednecks he looks like a guy with down home guts and charm. But look where his leadership is taking Iran. And you seem to want the same deal for the US?

Down home is fine for country music, BBQ parties, natsukashi memories of childhood and TV personalities. But what we need is intelligence, courage to change, open minded and yes liberal leadership who are not afraid to invest in what our nation needs. We've had enough of redneck leadership for one generation.

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zurconium: Why the opposition to free speech?

Fact is, Palin won. Claiming otherwise is sexist.

rjdsr, I really hope you're being sarcastic. She lost, only the Republicans who have their heads up their bottoms are saying otherwise.

When conservatives before the debate say the only thing Palin needed to do was not mess up and "survive", theres something fundamentally wrong with that statement. Why would anybody supposedly qualified for VP need to just survive a debate? And why did she talk about taxes when that issue wasn't raised by the moderator? Its because she only has prepared statements that she has drilled into her head. What I found most concerning was that she stated she wanted to expand the VP's powers when that is definitely not necessary after the havoc Cheney brought. And basically at the end she said she wasn't going to bow into mainstream media pressure, she wasn't going to give any more interviews, she was going to ride the "Straight Talk Express"...why is that???? Because as her interview with Katie Couric showed, she is just plain not qualified for something as important as VP.

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Why the opposition to free speech?

Fact is, Palin won. Claiming otherwise is sexist.

guffaw

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The election is nearly over, mccain has little chance now of threading the needle to win. Palin proved today that she is not a total loser, but her star is falling and will continue to do so because she has zero substance. Nothing.

I want to formally thank george bush for making Obama President. Only a screw up like bush can push an unknown one term senator who is black and liberal to become President. Bush, you are the man, boy, I mean.

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My belief is that the stature and salient experience eminating from Joe Bidens performance and delivery in this exchange, far outweighed the significance of the personal uplift Sarah Palin so badly needed. In fairness, she recovered some ground after a long week, but that is as good as it gets. Her standing, allegedly sagging moral in the GOP party play second fiddle to the marching polls that are rapidly enhancing colours.

Ms Palin, whatever view one takes on her qualities and future potential, is simply is not yet equipped, or ready, to assume the appointment of Vice President of the United States of America.

I also thought Senator Biden handled the meeting with diplomacy, tact and in the spirit of a gentleman. He could have gone after her on a personal level far more specifically and countered SP comments far more assertively - including white flags, Iraq, Iran and more (which the moderator should / could have done) but his overall pitch was spot on.

Serious situations required serious judgement and skills. My money remains firmly on the Obama / Biden team - they have the quality of statesmanship; the leadership and vision to re-focus a nation and lead it out of a political graveyard and the embarrassing failings of this x8 year GOP legacy.

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tkoind2 at 03:33 PM JST - 3rd October

Just what are you suggesting Nippon5? You don't like either but I don't see you offering any solutions either. It is easy to sit back and throw mud if you don't have to offer solutions. So what is your solution? Realistic solution mind you.

Im not the one beating a drum of OBAMA will save us... Im saying how can the left sho call the right one anything.. Doesnt matter which one of these groups we get it will be the same, actually worse since one wants to keep the spending the same and the other wants to increase it 800bil and both want to lower taxes more...

Goverment is way to deep into the pockets of companies to be of any true use to the civilians who voted them in...

My point is simple.. its dumb to toot a horn for one of these groups as the savior and call the other the devil.... They both are in it for their own gain and the gain of the companies and lobbist who pay their campaign bills... think about it Obama has 500 million in campaign money--McCain has around 200 million...... you can feed and cloth allot of American families that are suffering for that kind of money, but they are using it to spray lies and mis quotes of each other to gain position.. True change starts before you say it by the actions you do and neither of these bags of hot air are true change...

Sorry but thats just the truth.. I feel both Dems and Reps in this election fall flat on the attempt to be a true champion of the people..

As for what we should do since Im only one of 250million Americans... Maybe its time we actually do force change and get a goverment for the people by the people.... But hey maybe you like it the way it is.....

and your comments on Palin just prove what I am saying.. one turns a blind eye to reality when they make statements like that about one side and not the other...... Its just sad that people actually have thoughts like that in the day and age we are in sad sad sad

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Mrs. Palin is a nice person, but she is not fit for duty. Palin returned to the folksy, "you betcha" style of straight talk that endeared her to people at the Republican convention. America needs a leader, not a talk show host personality. She`s not a straight shooter as she claims to be. That's just window dressing, she's just a female version of George Bush. A Bush clone with pink shoes.

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Why did McCain pick her, why ? There are more qualifed female Republicans out there. This election my vote will go to Obama/Biden. Sorry !!!! This Republican is not going to vote for the old man/talk show host personality.

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Nippon5. And just how smart is it to say everything is terrible and both sides won't improve things while suggesting that people should force change when you know, very well, that revolutionary populist thinking has been dead in America for a very long time.

Look, my politics run far left of Obama. And I would be the first to admit that radical change is required to return power to the people for the development of a truly democratic system. But the facts are this doesn't solve any immediate problems and isn't likely to happen unless everything collapses and leaves a vacuum to be filled.

So let's deal in reality instead.

Obama can do a lot that the McCain camp does not wish to do. We need reversals on issues like privacy and civil liberties. We need infrastructure improvements and this makes good sense in terms of investment and return from resulting generation of jobs etc...

We need health care for all Americans. Period. We need better education or we can forget staying in the game as a top player.

As for long term change. Failure ot fix the problems we can will help insure that no changes comes later either. We need to take the steps we can and avoid creating some kind of ultra-conservative moralist state that is both socially and globally at war.

If you are really an advocate of change you have to see that McCain and Palin represent change in the wrong direction and that Obama at least will delay the slide. We need to do what we can to reverse some of the policies and screw ups of the past 8 years. McCain will not do that. And the risk of Palin as president is just too terrifying should McCain keel over at some point.

You have to pick a side this time. And you had best pick one that at least keeps the door open for change later and not the one that will take us back to the flat earth view of the world Palin represents.

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Here's a transcript of the entire debate so people can pick over the exact words..

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/index.html

Joe Biden clearly wiped the floor with Sarah Palin today.

Sure, Palin will appeal to the simple country folk who, like her, probably don't or have only recently acquired a passport and whose idea of global affairs doesn't reach much beyond their town borders and stuff they see on TV.

Biden on the other hand was convincing, presented a thumping argument many, many times, and intellectually and persuasively clearly outclassed the Alsakan Govenor.

It was funny watching her switch the conversation to Alaska whenever she couldn't answer a question (which was often), but what I couldn't help notice was her jabbing wedge-politics tactic of trying to drive a wedge between Obama and Biden by attempting to point out where both men had supposedly voted differently.

Palin talks about wanting to bring change to Washington in one breath and then in her next breath she attempts this barrel-scraping, Rove/Republican-hallmark wedge tactic.

That was just disgusting in my book.

That said, Palin was better but Biden was brilliant.

He clearly outclassed her with his experience, confidence and composure.

Biden also did an awesome job of reinforced steel bolting mccain to bush.

I doubt the anti-American mccain-Palin ticket will get much of a bounce out of this debate.

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Patriotic Americans for generations to come will thank george bush, john mccain and Sarah Palin for being behind the biggest ever implosion of the GOP.

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tkoind2 said

Obama can do a lot that the McCain camp does not wish to do

But that statement can be used for the other side too.. Do I want to have a health care system like Japans goverment one? Not really I kind of like the feeling I get in a hospital in America, Im afraid of them here in Japan..

I agree that we need more freedom from the goverment, but how can you do that and have the goverment run everything in your life? I have three kids and my youngest wont be 18 for 16 more years so I am looking out for the future, and not just tomorrow or 4 years from now, but I dont want to increase the amount of money the goverment is spending on American people until we stop spending it on other countries people, with that said both of these canidates are talking spending more over seas, Obama wants to double overseas aid!!!

Since my goal is actual change for the middle class I cant in good faith promote either of these two as their plans do not add up to an actual change, or as you put it a slow down of the slide.. Both plan to continue the same amount of military in either Iraq or Afghanistan, they both want tax cuts we truely cant afford, Obama wants to increase spending by 800 billion a year. Only bright thing I have heard from any of them was the freeze on goverment spending on non essential items, but that was just smoke from them just like all the things they say they will do. Ive lived too long and seen too many of them promise me sunshine and deliver unchi...

I shouldnt have to pick the less of two evils, damn it it is America isnt it??? So for this election I wont cast for either unless one comes up with a realist plan and not a rim job plan!!!

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SushiSake3. I sincerely hope so!

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Sushisake3 doubt the anti-American mccain-Palin ticket will get much of a bounce out of this debate

Joe Biden clearly wiped the floor with Sarah Palin today.

It was funny watching her switch the conversation to Alaska Biden also did an awesome job of reinforced steel bolting mccain to bush

Another of the great unintelligent comments that prove my point how one can only see what they want and not what really matters.... How can you say Palin uses her experience in Alaska to avoid the question and then turn around and say great job to biden for avoiding the actual question by using Bush?

Wonder why so many Americans dont want to vote for either party this year...

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What is it with the right and equating proper social management and government big brother? Are you really happy with the fact that people don't have health care? Would you rather they do without than have a system at least as good as Japan? Would you rather continue feeding private insurance companies that are raking profits or funding one that at least gives people a rational base level of coverage?

The Middle Class you claim to support need jobs, education, health care and support for the elderly. Just how to do you provide for this privately in a world without much government intervention? The problems don't go away if the government doesn't address them. They fester. We've seen this for a very long time. And that festering is harming the middle and working classes the most. So do you really think you can fix things without programs? Who will help? Clearly the people cannot solve these problems alone or they would have by now.

Social investment makes sense! Period! Look at the best run nations on the planet who have great health care, great infrastructure, great eduction and wonderful work life balance. Why don't you want that for the Middle and Working classes at home?

Let's look at a model. Universal health care saves us money through proper preventative care and by helping people maintain their health instead of ending up on the dole.

Investment in infrastructure will create jobs, demand for products and services and thus good business for companies. Working people pay taxes and that comes back into cities, states and the federal system. It worked with the new deal and it will work now.

Education. We should be educating any and everyone in the country who wants an education. It is an investment in our business potential and in our ability to stay ahead in the economic and technology races. And it helps make sure we get change as educated people are more likely to be active in social and political issues.

Palin and McCain won't make these things happen. But Obama will do more to at least get them rolling. This is what middle America needs.

Bottom line it isn't 1847 and you can't move out west away from cities and government to hard live it on your own. We are a modern nation with modern needs that mean good and intelligent governance and the presense of national programs that assure key basics. The time for impotent government is over. We need intelligent involvement to solve our problems. And in doing so we help pave the way for long term change. Fail these points and we slide first to 2nd world status and later, maybe a lot worst.

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Right now your talking out of politics and not logic.. Every state has programs for families that can not actually afford health care to get it. As far as free enterprise you dont like free enterprise? So all hospitals and doctors should be goverment employees? To do such things takes away the desire to become a doctor or a hospital owner...

I think you want to say regulate the industry, and that is a good way to control cost to the comsumer, but universal health care has proven to not truely work in all countries that have it.. Here in Japan we still pay a monthy payment, and the service sucks to the point that people die because the service isnt up to par...

Im all for regulating parts of the economic system, we need it as a protection to the people, Im not for the goverment owning or controlling every thing because as you put it Clearly the people cannot solve these problems alone or they would have by now. the same goes for Goverment if goverment knew what to do we wouldnt be here now..

Right now what Americans need is a goverment that has a set policy on spending, this includes at home spending... We cant have any more extra spending at home until we end spending abroad(this includes military spending in other countries, aid to countries, etc etc.. We need better regulations of companies so that they can not abuse the system, We need to get rid of lobbist and campaign donations as they influence the politicians too much and create a goverment based on company needs vs civilians needs. We need a leadership that isnt voting to be one with the party because the party isnt for the people, We need a better retirement system for the elderly, we need better school funding and school regulation so kids get a good education and actually dont get pushed because they can play a game, We need to fix loopholes in tax law to make companies pay for the money they make.

So as far as not wanting Goverment involved your wrong, I feel we do need goverment involved in parts of our lives, but I dont think govement should be in control of our lives.

Bottom line Obama wants to spend more then what we have, period the math doesnt lie.. McCainwants to spend more then we have, Period the math doesnt lie, they both want to reduce the amount of money the goverment takes in.. So please tell me what is wrong with me wanting our goverment to bring the balance to the black and not the red it will and is in/,...

Im not on the right and Im not on the left, I think both sides dont see very far and dont even understand half of what they preach. I consider myself in the middle, Ive worked for people and owned my own company, Ive been on goverment assistance and Ive made good money. Ive owned houses and Ive rented from section 8.

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Nippon5 - you're afraid of hospitals here in Japan?

At least people here can enter one.

In the states 20% of the population can't or have no financial means to pay off the exorbitant costs that would be incurred.

So many Americans fear of governments running their lives - ala 1984 - always brings a smile.

All governments of all persuasions together with the support of the Incs. already run your life. They just let folks run with the bait for a while (who then think they're free) before reeling them in. Patronizing talk is standard fare for all sides of politics.

The disgusting sums of money spent on American presidential campaigns and the equally disturbing amount of time spent on "informing the people" with talk after talk after talk after talk (and still the people don't know???)will truly be judged by history as national self-flagellation on an unprecedented scale in world history.

Palin vs Biden is like some sad re-run of an even sadder sit-com that millions think is fun.

And the whole Obama vs Mcain (Dems v Reps) circus - both with God on their sides - can't take that necessary side step to see what's real and what's not. They just talk the talk and the turkeys gobble it up.

And finally at least with Palin she is what she is. The smarm and glibness of the silver-tongued ones hasn't coated her as yet - but it may well do if she sticks around.

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The right again likes to portray all spending as evil. But the fact remains that proper spending can make a significant difference and benefit Tax payers.

Why would having a proper social healthcare system discourage people from becoming doctors if the compensation was good and rational and the education necessary to get there was also socialized? Imagine less loans they have to pay back, greater support across the board for doctors and stronger protections for both their performance and security.

If it weeds out people who are in it only for money, so be it.

The education system will provide more opportunity for Joe Average's kid to grow up to be a doctor instead of ending up in some telemarketing firm because he had to work to support his family and could not afford to go to school because Mom could not seek early preventative health care and missed catching cancer early enough to address it.

See these things are interrelated.

Tax payers do most of the hard work and suffer most of the inadequacies of our society. Instead of giving business a break and all the benefits, I'm saying give them to the people who make business possible. The workers who do the work, the consumers who buy the products and the tax payers who make the nation possible.

I'm sick to death of the right saying spending all the time like it is an evil word. When the average worker needs not spending cuts to rational sensible programs, but spending cuts in the form of better policies and less money wasted on wars we didn't need to fight.

You can dream on all you want about some great right wing revolution that will never manifest. We need solutions to problems that are making life hard on people today. Right now! Mom's who can't work enough hours to feed families and take care of ailing aged parents, kids who can't get proper educations or hope for higher education, families that need health care, public transportation and better opportunities.

Fixing things costs money. Like it or not. And Palin and McCain will not spend the money on the average American. They will continue to waste it on wars we should end and on tax breaks to people who have enough money already.

I'm from a working class family in a Red voting state and I've seen what working Americans need. These are not lazy people looking for hand outs. They are hard working people who want better for their kids and families. They are tax paying citizens who are tired of being the last on the list of concerns for politicians. And they are people who need some spending in their lives to sort things out. Plain and simple. Obama has a far better chance of helping these people than another 4 years of Bush sequels.

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http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html

Fact check is out on the debate..

In the states 20% of the population can't or have no financial means to pay off the exorbitant costs that would be incurred.

Ive been in this situation and I was able to get free heath care for my children my wife and I, the hospital didnt refuse to take us in and helped with the goverment paper work that got us full free coverage in less then a day. I ve also sat in a Japanese hospital for 7 hours waiting to get seen by a doctor that told me to come back if I got worse...and that damn wooden bench wasnt very nice (I had a hernia and ended up getting medical attention on the Naval Base (which is scary too))

The rest of your post is dead on..

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tkoind2 who the hell you talking about? If I was a right wing person I wouldnt want goverment intervention right? Well I think if you can afford to pay for your own insurance then you should, if you cant then the state goverment and federal goverment can have a program that you can get on (like most states have now). Education can not be goverment paid higher then high school for such simple reasons as.... should a guy making 10 dollars an hour pay taxes for free higher education so another man can make more just because he is genetically more intelligent, sorry no.. you want to go to college then you pay to go or be smart enough that someone else will. Education isnt what makes a man great, I know allot of people who spent 8 years in the higher education system I wouldnt let plunger my toilet, they just dont have anything but book smarts and are useless in a real world enviroment..Ive also meet people who didnt graduate high school and run multimillion dollar a year companies because they understand the people they deal with...

Tommorrow you go to the porsche dealer and buy that 200k car.... Ohh you cant cause you dont have the money to pay for it? why should the goverment be able to spend without having the funds to pay... Get real its not a right thing or a left thing its a budget thing.. You dont have the money you dont spend it, keeps my middle class life able to pay my bills. I cant afford to have a 5 bedroom home in Tokyo so I live in a 3 bedroom one in Tokyo, I dont spend money I dont have.. This is why we have a economical problem in the US, if you dont have it dont spend it...

Ive lived in California, Minnesota,Wisconsin,Illinois and Ive lived on welfare and had my own company. Ive been on Badger care, Minnesota care, and had great personal insurance before. Ive been in the red the black and the green, and I can tell you one thing that I know as a fact, you shouldnt spend what you dont have period, be it your a person or a goverment.... Neither candidate is going to do that so put your trumpet away the band isnt playing on this field anymore....

Sad thing is if I dont agree with a right they call me a left and when I dont agree with the left they call me a right, personally Im not a shoe or a glove Im a human and Im not a side to be called.... So dont label someone because they find your view askew to the life they have had to live....

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I'm not a fan of Sarah Palin but I thought, as the article here says, that she "stood her ground" and, as Norpinhead observed, she "held her own". If the debate were to be judged on red, white and blue points, I think you could even say that Palin won. Following CNN's wretched audience response meter, it seemed to me that Palin scored big on patriotic talking points and on appeals to common wisdom.

However, if you were to judge the debate on exceeding expectations, I would rate it a draw. If people truly had low expectations of Palin as the media has claimed but which many here have contradicted, Palin performed better than expected. But so did Biden. Palin brought vitality. Biden brought gravitas.

But if you were to judge the debate on substance, I believe Biden was the clear winner. It seemed to me that Palin slipped away from the questions as soon as possible and into scripted remarks. Some questions she did not answer. At least one, the Achilles heel question, she appeared not to even understand. She had a couple of speechless moments where it looked to me as though she had been caught up entirely short. I thought she did make two good points, one on the economy and one on foreign policy (both of which I have now forgotten and am wondering whether it is worth the trouble of reading the transcript to try to remember), but they were no match for Biden's more consistent performance.

Biden, in my opinion, more often addressed the questions of the moderator, addressed them more clearly and with a greater command of fact. He showed himself superior on foreign policy, which is where McCain supposedly has an advantage, and he demonstrated enough knowledge of what is important to the economy and to people on main street to counteract Palin's folksy charm.

The single telling point of the debate was when Biden asked for McCain's plan. He did an excellent job of laying out the Obama plan but Palin could not match it with a cogent statement of what McCain actually plans to do. Palins version of McCain's plan seems to be maverickness. No, thank you. I don't want to be led by a maverick. That is a contradiction in terms.

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tkoind2: Education. We should be educating any and everyone in the country who wants an education. It is an investment in our business potential and in our ability to stay ahead in the economic and technology races. And it helps make sure we get change as educated people are more likely to be active in social and political issues.

Can you tell us what you don't like about McCain's education platform and what you do like about Obama's?

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After the debate, the news came about that the McCain campaign is suspending efforts in Michigan, where the Obama-Biden team's lead has now grown into double-digits. Michigan, where I was born, raised, and still have family, is a state with a lot of hockey moms and hunters.

I believe that this is the final post-conventions trend that is going to catapault the Democrats into the White House.

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Sezwho, in support of your post above, check this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7649833.stm

The fact that the bar was so low doesn't make her a winner. They are vying for the same job and they should be judged as such

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Nippon5

You make many good points.

I believe you are one of the few here on JT who actually express a representative view of a very large group of the American population, at least a good few that I personally know (and who do not go to the www.wsws.org page for their political insight). I am certain many Americans are just as disturbed as you are by the alarming lack of difference between the Democratic and Republican candidates.

You might have heard of New Zealand. A small country, plays rugby well and famous for dairy cows and snow, and the haka. Just to show you this two party fraud is not suffered soley by America, let me refer you to what has been taking place in recent weeks in New Zealand. There, the two main political parties have made an agreement between themselves to shut out all other political parties in a public televised debate between the leaders.

The Labour party which has been in power for 9 years and mirrors your Democratic Party was apparently the one to initiate the plan. The National party, mirroring your Republic Party, is led by one of the wealthiest men in Australasia agreed to the plan and they agreed to the plan.

In the last decade in most of the developed world the divide between the richest and the poorest has become a gaping divide, and in the last few years the middle class rather than growing in size as the myth of the free market ideology had promised has actually shrunk. The poor have increased in number, their ranks swelled by those who would formally have ranked themselves middle class.

Which party speaks for the struggling Americans and their counterparts across the world, the working class? It most certainly is not the Democrats and the Labour party and their counterparts. The political alternative to the 'Tory' party is now revealed to be a lie. In desperate economic times we have seen the Democrats obscure their former posture as fighters for 'ordinary workers', their liberal garb is clearly nothing but a veneer, an attempt to cover their true class connection and their right-wing orientation.

In these last two debates it should have become crystal clear to all viewers that there is nothing but posture that separates the true interests of the Democrats from those of the Republicans.

Nippon5, it is really heartening to read your posts on this thread.

Moderator: Stay on topic please. The subject is the debate. References to other countries are not relevant.

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But if you were to judge the debate on substance, I believe Biden was the clear winner.

Indeed. And what is more important to putting America back on track, substance or a shout out and winking at the camera?

Palin didn't fall on her sword as she did with Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric and people are considering that a moral victory for her. The bar cannot get much lower.

Taka

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"Palin didn't fall on her sword"

Translation: Palin won this debate hands down.

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Palin lost this debate hands down.

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The more people praise Biden ,the Obama/Biden ticket looks more and more upside down. Biden/ Obama ticket looks more convincing.

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USAno1 - "Palin lost this debate hands down."

Heh, even the liberal media aren't saying that.

If Obama and Biden get in the White House, the USA may not be No.1 by the time their mismanagement is done.

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Palin's prompters were superb.

The way they fed her the incorrect name for the General in charge in Iraq was masterful. She wasn't aware of course and that was the point, she appeared to make the goof herself, as if she was not receiving prompts at all.

Biden's startled expression gave it away of course. It was written all over his face. "How could they have given her the wrong name? Did she really mishear them? It could be a trap, better not say anything."

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Palin really was sparking on all cylinders, its amazing what difference a week can make.

She was almost light years from her 'caught in the headlights' rendition she gave us when interviewed by Katie Couric. No big goofs. See, that's the brilliance of 'allowing' her the one mistake with the general's name, anyone can get a name wrong. McCain can do that.

But she was still the same Palin. The fact her handlers did not direct her to suppress the 'hockey mum' actually meant that she managed to make Biden look the dried up old politician.

The one moment that Biden came alive was when he defended his experience as a single father who had grieved. I don't know that his expression of personal grief in the face of so much public anquish came across all that well. At best he looked slightly human for a moment. Palin on the other hand came across like a football stadium cheerleader who had for an entire 90 minutes sounded reasonably intelligent. And in the end, that version of human by comparison would have resonated far more with an audience amongst whom I have little doubt, there would have been a good number who were watching just to see her eaten alive by the grizzled senator of more than 30 years.

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Sarge, in the potential to be VP ratings, Biden 82% Palin was somewhere in the mid 20s.

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Sarge - If Obama and Biden get in the White House, the USA may not be No.1 by the time their mismanagement is done.

That is so outrageous and wrong.

After the last 8 years, and John McCain wants more of the same, Obama and Biden could never do the damage that george bush has done to this country.

John McCain and Sarah Palin are financially minded duplicates of george bush. More tax cuts for big oil and keeping tax cuts that has damaged this country financially.

And george bush/John McCain's war in Iraq has been a sham and a mismanaged disaster. And their idea that they can do the same in Afghanistan, that they did in Iraq is a continued control kamakazi dive to more damage to the war on terror.

Joe Biden and Barack Obama is the team that will help America, not more of the same as george bush has done.

It's really Barack Obama and Joe Biden against John McCain and Sarah Palin and george bush's policies. < :-)

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Sarah Palin only breathed every 430 words. She started talking and that high pitched whine got so ear shattering that my ears still ache.

No wonder Todd Palin is on his snow machine so much. I'd rather listen to a lawn mower then listen to Sarah Palin. Hearing the waves while on a fishing boat would be a blessing. < :-)

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Sarge, who can outdo Bush?

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If Obama and Biden get in the White House, the USA will be be No.1

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As an independent thinker, i must say that i was most impressed with Palin. Biden looked very unproffessional and unable to win any discussions. Palin showed she is presidential material. She has a wise head on her and a love for her country that means we can trust her.

McCain with his experience and maverick attitude and Palin with her common touch mean a vote for the REpublicans is the only choice for great future for America.

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Sorry MrDickMorris, I think you must have been watching the Disney Channel.

The vice-presidential debate that most of the rest of us were watching clearly showed Sarah Palin getting slammed by Joe Biden.

Joe Biden wiped the floor with Sarah Palin on almost every issue and left her with no option but to recite fixed soundbites and cliches or switch the subject to Alaska in her feeble attempts to fill the many spaces when she simply did not have a credible answer.

On top of that, she - like her no-hoper boss john mccain BOTH came out losers of their respective debates and for patriotic Americans who love their country, that is GREAT news all round.

Are you SURE you were watching the right channel? :-)

her gasping for relevant words on many occassionst

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McC72,

Thank you for the link. I agree that a low bar doesn't make her a winner. By my standards she lost the debate but performed fairly well, still not well enough to lead me to believe that she could hold her own in a no-holds-barred event.

However, those are my standards and that is my point. I'm not really sure what we are talking about when we talk about "winning" an event like this. It's not like it's a debate contest where the judges are all going to weight heavily for critical thought. And I am only one judge.

I think that "winners" of political debates are those people who connect with the voters, not the people who are smartest or most silver-tongued. In my opinion, Kerry won every debate against Bush but I think it's quite possible that Bush's superior connection with the audience gave him his relatively small margin of victory in the election. So when Palin goes all red-white-and-blue and plays on American's sentiments about themselves and their hopes for their country, she lifts people up. She's up-beat and well-grounded enthusiasm will sell.

People like that. It's a winning strategy. That's what Obama does at his best. So, I think that in some senses of the word Palin comes out of this debate a winner--not the winner, but a winner.

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SushiSake3- I was viewing the correct channel. I think your liberal bias stops you from seeing the flaws in your guy, and the multiple good point sof Palin.

Biden was shocked Palin was so good at debating. Biden came over as wooden, even robot like. On the other hand Palin stated her views very well and was composed and i may say, presidential.

McCain and Palin are asafe pair of hands taht we can trust to look after us. Obama and Biden have social programs taht will bankrupt our nation, leaving trillions of Dollars of debt for future generations.

I am sure all undecided voter will now be voting for the McCain, Palin ticket.

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MrDickMorris writes: "As an independent thinker, i must say that i was most impressed with Palin. Biden looked very unproffessional and unable to win any discussions."

Putting aside the oddity why anyone who wants to pass himself off as an "independent thinker" would choose the handle of an obvious partisan hack, a viewer of last night's debate has to question the quality of what passes for independent thought in the USA.

Unable to win any discussions? Certainly people remember this topic:

IFILL: "What has this administration done right or wrong -- this is the great, lingering, unresolved issue, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- what have they done? And is a two-state solution the solution?"

As some commentators have pointed out, based on Palin's recent interviews, asking her to handle a substantive question like this inspires fear that the woman is going to hurt herself. And here was Palin's reply:

PALIN: "A two-state solution is the solution. And Secretary Rice, having recently met with leaders on one side or the other there, also, still in these waning days of the Bush administration, trying to forge that peace, and that needs to be done, and that will be top of an agenda item, also, under a McCain-Palin administration.

"Israel is our strongest and best ally in the Middle East. We have got to assure them that we will never allow a second Holocaust, despite, again, warnings from Iran and any other country that would seek to destroy Israel, that that is what they would like to see.

"We will support Israel. A two-state solution, building our embassy, also, in Jerusalem, those things that we look forward to being able to accomplish, with this peace-seeking nation, and they have a track record of being able to forge these peace agreements.

"They succeeded with Jordan. They succeeded with Egypt. I'm sure that we're going to see more success there, also.

"It's got to be a commitment of the United States of America, though. And I can promise you, in a McCain-Palin administration, that commitment is there to work with our friends in Israel."

Quoting one post-debate commentator: "Right: Forge that peace, no second Holocaust, two-state solution, capital in Jerusalem. It's like she's just randomly spewing every talking point she's ever uploaded on Israel."

Biden by contrast, hit the same question out of the park: The Bush administration legitimized Hamas by holding an election in the West Bank, then let Hezbollah fill the vacuum in Southern Lebanon by not using NATO troops. Checkmate.

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MrDickMorris writes: "I am sure all undecided voter will now be voting for the McCain, Palin ticket."

You wouldn't happen to be a former financial forecaster for Bear Stearns would you?

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I saw the debates and I was surprised by Biden. He was clear well spoken and knew his stuff. He did not need to be fed his answers to hit the mark.

Palin did not fall on her face. But she barely answered a single question that was asked. Every time a hard question was asked she would try her best to dance and sing for the crowd. Real sad to see someone who is running for the VP spot try to dance for the folks.

You know I want a VP that knows his of her job, I dont want some one who clearly does not get what that job is all about.

I gave Joe two thumbs, btw did I say that I like his name also?

Here is an interesting fact, even Fox polls give Biden the win tonight.

But here is another fact, the diehard Republicans can not accept the fact that Biden won.

Of all the posts I have seen I would say 80% gave it to Biden and most of the 80% saw through the Palin "gosh, gee willickers, Shoutout" folksy attempt to connect with the so called Joesix Pack crowd.

Maverick John Mcoldguy and his team is so out of touch with America that they tried this cheap tactic that did not go any where. Sad sad sad McC sad.

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yabits- Luckily i viewed the debate with no favorite in my mind. From the performnces of both candidates i concluded that Palin was a much stronger and trustworthy candidate than Biden.

Her views on Israel that you kindly posted, are in fact the views of most moderatly thinking Americans.

Biden is clearly not a lover of freedom, by stating his opposition to a democratic vote in the West Bank.

We need competent leaders, not two ultra liberal guys who will steal from the hardest workers, fill the pockets of the idle and decimate our military capabilites.

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MrDickMorris writes: "[Palin's] views on Israel that you kindly posted, are in fact the views of most moderatly thinking Americans."

Moderately thinking as in a moderate capacity to think?

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MrDickMorris tell us that he "viewed the debate with no favorite."

In the very same posting, he writes: "We need competent leaders, not two ultra liberal guys who will steal from the hardest workers, fill the pockets of the idle and decimate our military capabilites."

Gee. All that out of just one VP debate... No favorite in mind, indeed.

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MrDickMorris, very good points. I was a little concerned about Palin's ability, but she stunned me with her performance. Biden looked like the inexperienced one. Palin's performance made a McCain victory a dead cert.

I guess all those mocking Palin, are eating humble pie now. She did a great job, and will be a fantastic representative for America.

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Ladies and Gents, it's about time the Republican doubters on this board got real and faced the painful facts that no matter how much they try to bury their heads in the sand, Joe Biden whumped Sarah Palin in every category except 'folksiness,' a characteristic which, although cute, is not necessary for a Commander-in-Chief of the USA to have in spades.

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Of all the posts I have seen I would say 80% gave it to Biden and most of the 80% saw through the Palin "gosh, gee willickers, Shoutout" folksy attempt to connect with the so called Joesix Pack crowd.

Folksy, while a pleasant attribute of people in the service industry, doesn't give you much of an edge in negotiations or confrontations. In those situations, the person who has depth of knowledge, grace under pressure, powers of persuasion, and the ability to pull together a strong team is the one you want to go with.

Palin's steady performance, in a forum where you can provide a answer that doesn't address the question, will stifle the calls to remove her from the ticket (an impossibility anyway). But most of the polls have called the debate decisively for Biden. That's what undecided voters will look to because many are not engaged in the political process and, as a result, disproportionately blow with the wind. "If most people think Biden won, well the he must have." The momentum is going in Obama's direction and Palin's performance last night won't change that.

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SushiSake3 - 'folksiness,' a characteristic which, although cute, is not necessary for a Commander-in-Chief of the USA to have in spades.

I have to agree. If she was having a talk to a campaign crowd or at some gathering, it would have worked. But she was trying to convence the American people to vote for her/McCain. That sounded unprofessional to those who were looking for a possible C-i-C. And knowing that this was watched by the world, not just America.

It's like I learned a long time ago, you have to perform for your audiance. And don't kid yourselves, they know that they are both performing to get the job. It's a job interview. And the person(s) hiring her are the American people. < :-)

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" 'folksiness,' a characteristic which, although cute, is not necessary for a Commander-in-Chief of the USA to have in spades. "

She is not running for commander in chief. What is this continuous drum-beat about.... a subliminal message that McCain is going to drop dead in the near future? That is borderline bizarre.

I have never heard anything like this in a US prez campaign before, has any one else? A tad tasteless, too.

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There was no place whatsoever for Sarah Palin's shout-out to the kids at school.

As adaydream says, "That sounded unprofessional to those who were looking for a possible C-i-C. And knowing that this was watched by the world, not just America."

Sarah Palin's attempt to recover her image was valiant and she must have done lots and lots of practice, but as vice president, she is so far out of her depth it just isn't funny any more.

john mccain's selection of Sarah Palin as his vice president will be looked back on as THE move that crushed his final hopes to become president.

And naturally, it is only patriotic people who love America who will understand this :-)

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WilliB - John McCain is old. John McCain has had cancer surgery 3 times (i think i'm right about that number). John McCain will be the oldest president ever elected.

It's not tasteless, it's a matter of security to ensure that there be adequate back-up. I don't know about your job, but when I retired disaster planning was a big thing. John McCain's going for the highest elected position in the country. We're the ones who are hiring him or Barack Obama. Either way I want to know we've got adequate back-up for anybody elected as president.

Remember when Ronald Reagan was shot. He didn't die. But we needed someone to lead the country while he was in the hospital. It's disaster planning for the worse case scenerio. < :-)

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WilliB,

I don't think we have ever had a candidate as old as McCain paired with a candidate as inexperienced and as questionable as Palin before. So while she is not running for the Presidency, her abiity to assume it is a matter of interest. You don't hear these questions about Biden because there is no age-related concern about Obama and because Biden is assumed to be experienced enough to fill the position.

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SezWho2- You miss the point, Palin is a better candidate than OBama.

Obama is dedicated to turning the US into European style nation. Biden did not deny any of this at all. Palin knows that she must be like McCain, a person who like after the purse strings.

Obama would borrow trillions to implement his social programs. Palin did not deny this, he even stated that the democartically elected govenment of he West Bank was Bush's fault. Biden and Obama do not believe in democracy.

America is in great jeopardy. Our nation may be destroyed if people are brainwashed by the liberal media to vote for Obama.

Palin showed why McCain must be elected, to secure America for now, and for our future generations.

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Sez, Your Honest opinion....After the debate what do you think of Sarah Palin.

Politics aside, What do you think?

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John McCain's age has to be a consideration.

It makes no difference whether we consider the age of John McCain or not. We have to consider the possibility that Sarah Palin could have to assume the presidency whether a day or the rest of the term in office.

If you're not looking at this from all angles, you're not really making an informed decision. But a lot of people do that.

My daddy is a republican or a democrat so I vote that way. I don't care about the facts or the possibilities, just vote because someone else said to vote that way. Don't consider truths. < :-)

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We have to consider the possibility that Sarah Palin could have to assume the presidency whether a day or the rest of the term in office.

Past Presidents that were Governors in my lifetime. Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, GWB your point?

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Me think Palin too much like war like Bush. She not good the world and ting. Biden, yeah him old guy, but he want to make world better, and he say he want to talk not make the wars. Obama want to give bucks to Africa to help us live nice, but McCain prefer the wars, and Palin she is the same. She says tehting that make me think she only loving oil and wars.

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Alaska Governor Sarah Palin's threads are the busiest ones on this web site.

It must be fear.

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Willi,

"What is this continuous drum-beat about.... a subliminal message that McCain is going to drop dead in the near future? That is borderline bizarre."

It sure isn't bizarre if you take the life-span of the average American int consideration. Statisticaly, McCain's chances of living out even a first term could be a challenge...

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The New York Times covered the debate and reports as follows

' "On Thursday night, Palin took her inexperience and made a mansion out of it. From her first “Nice to meet you. May I call you Joe?” she made it abundantly, unstoppably and relentlessly clear that she was not of Washington, did not admire Washington and knew little about Washington. She ran not only against Washington, but the whole East Coast, just to be safe.

To many ears, her accent, her colloquialisms and her constant invocations of the accoutrements of everyday life will seem cloying. But in the casual parts of the country, I suspect, it went down fine. In any case, that’s who Palin is." '

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coulrophobic,

"It must be fear."

When one hears talk about figthing "holy wars" and other associated fundie christian stuff, then yeah, it's something a lot of people could be scared of - especially when you take into consideration the post she's applying for...

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Palin did a good job, no gaffs, no slip ups, absolutley nothing for the liberals to take her to task on.

Biden on the other hand was like a programmed robot, the guy cannot debate. He was obviously briefed by his master Obama, but not very well.

Expect to see McCain shooting up in the polls.

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I agree with FandB. The debate went well for Palin, and the Obama camp was not expecting a nearly flawless night. Once again, people will be looking at the McCain / Palin ticket after her performance. This is precisely what the ticket needs to keep things fresh after two weeks of fear mongering in the senate.

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sailwind at 12:15 AM JST - 4th October

We have to consider the possibility that Sarah Palin could have to assume the presidency whether a day or the rest of the term in office.

Past Presidents that were Governors in my lifetime. Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, GWB your point?

My point is Sarah Palin could have to step into the shoes of the president at any moment. Whether for a day or to serve out the term. I want to know that we have somebody capable and able to do the job.

Not just somebody who can folksy talk you or point at her lips and smile, giving her soccer mom/pitbull analagy. I want to know that if the president couldn't serve for even a day that we're covered properly.

That's only ensuring for the national security. That's only ensuring that the Standing Operational Procedures of this office are covered.

It has no difference whether Sarah Palin is a governor or a senator.

If you can't understand this, I can't explain it any better.

And this isn't tasteless, it's ensuring the protection of the office of the President of the United States. < :-)

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My point is Sarah Palin could have to step into the shoes of the president at any moment. Whether for a day or to serve out the term. I want to know that we have somebody capable and able to do the job.

Obama? You say no problem to a Junior Senator? You set the bar pretty low if you ask me though funny then say a Governor of a State isn't up to your standards for the top job. Curious post on your part.

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Good-bye sailwind. This is about Sarah Palin, not Barack Obama.

Barack has to be considered.

But you want to twist this to another subject to deflect critism of Sarah Palin.

I'm making fresh bread and you're rants are wasting my time. < :-)

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Someone should tell Palin to stop pronouncing Iraq as "Eyeraq."

Impossible. It plays too well in the stix.

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Biden is a dinosaur

Not surprising;dinosaurs and humans co-existed. According to the fundies, anyway.

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She`s not a straight shooter as she claims to be.

Cut her some slack. It ain't easy to shoot straight from a helicoptor.

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But after 2004, I have very little faith in the intelligence and judgement of the American voter. Afterall Bush was elected twice and has nearly wiped the nation off the map with bad leadership. But then again the flyover states seem to like the whole down home charm of useless politicians.

I couldn't agree more

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The Democrats did not want Palin to loose as she is their greatest asset. Biden played for a draw, if he had wiped the floor with her he would lost a lot of womens votes. Worse than that the Republicans would have dumped her and possibly come up with a better candidate. Biden played it very well you could see in his smile he picked every mistake Palin made and choose which ones to respond to. Palin on the other hand just tried to fit the answers she had rote learned to the questions while trying to campaign at the same time instead of debating. Palin looked like a pre-schooler against a master.

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Barack Obama leads John McCain by seven percentage points in the current Gallup Poll, 49% to 42%.

You betcha Biden won the debate doggone it.

CNN/Opinion Research - Biden 51% Palin 36%.

CBS - Biden 46% Palin 21%.

MSNBC's online poll, - Joe Biden 81% - Palin 17%.

Fox - Biden 61% Palin 39%.

Pretty darn conclusive!

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Do we want a Theocracy in America? You betcha!

(excerpts taken from The Word from Wasilla}

Sarah Palin appeared transformed in last night's debate. There may be an unearthly reason. If God is listening, he cannot be missing the passion that evangelical voters are investing in her.

Only a few days before her first and only command performance before the voters, we stood with over 100 Pentecostals in Crossroads Church just outside Wasilla, Alaska, and heard the pastor proclaim that Sarah Palin would be the ambassador of God from righteous believers.

That night, pastor Dennis had gathered some of his flock in the church -- not to watch the debate: "We didn't want to be distracted" -- for 90 minutes of intense intercessory prayer, including speaking in tongues.

"In my heart of hearts, I believe God's favor is on her," Kathy Moffitt

They gather in a high school auditorium with no religious "icons," to call the spirit of the Lord through Christian rock 'n' roll, a reaching up of arms, waving of flags, spontaneous utterances (speaking in tongues), and a sermon that included cheerleading for "our Sarah" and assurances to one another, "You are righteous." The pastor

"When it comes to economic policy, to God it's not that important, because He is our provider," the pastor said in his most reverent voice. "Our trust is in Him, not in economic policy." He emphasized that this is an overriding issue for the evangelical faith community, "because we believe when the country puts its trust in God -- and not in man's systems and man's reasoning -- but makes their decisions more based upon God's word

"Biden jumped all over that," scoffed Janet Kincaid. "But if you're a leader, you're a leader. You can use your skills to lead people to the Lord or to hell."

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sailwind,

I think I have already given my honest opinion of Palin, politics aside. She seems to me like a person who is comfortable in the spotlight and therefore probably seeks it. She is attractive, poised, confident and enthusiastic. She also seems to me to be very unprepared for her current endeavor, game but lacking in depth. Her religious beliefs are somewhat scary.

However, we are not looking at Palin, politics aside. She has put herself in the political arena. At the best of times I do not agree with McCain's agenda. I would agree even less if it had to be executed by the person I described above.

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MrDickMorris,

I understand that you believe that Palin is a better candidate than Obama. And I am quite content that you should think so for you don't give any evidence that you would even consider changing your mind. However, I think it is you who are missing the point. Palin is not running against Obama. In a Palin-vs.-Obama contest for the presidency I think Obama would win hands down.

However, let's look at your supporting statements. You say that Biden in this debate did not deny that Obama was dedicated to turning the US into a European-style nation. There's a very good reason for that. Nobody in this debate even claimed that Obama was dedicated to this action. You will notice that I have not denied that Palin is a Rhodes Scholar. I'll wait until you make that claim.

You say that Palin has not denied that Obama would add trillions to the debt for social programs. It isn't clear whether your objection is that it is trillions of dollars or that it is for social programs, but in either case it would be very strange for Palin to deny it. I have no doubt that Obama would re-orient spending but if you look at the record over the last 28 years, the national debt has increased from $.9T to $11.3T if the pending legislation passes. The debt decreased only under Democratic administrations.

You say that Biden claimed that Bush was responsible for the democratic elections in the West Bank and that, therefore, he and Obama are against democracy. It is quite the opposite. Biden and Obama believe in democracy and its consequences. It was the Bush administration that was not willing to accept the consequences of the democratic elections.

America is in constant jeopardy. We are addicted to it. It is one thing to be watchful and another to be paranoid. That's why I think Palin showed that it is important to vote for Obama/Biden.

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The New York Times covered the debate and reports as follows

' "On Thursday night, Palin took her inexperience and made a mansion out of it. From her first “Nice to meet you. May I call you Joe?” she made it abundantly, unstoppably and relentlessly clear that she was not of Washington, did not admire Washington and knew little about Washington. She ran not only against Washington, but the whole East Coast, just to be safe.

To many ears, her accent, her colloquialisms and her constant invocations of the accoutrements of everyday life will seem cloying. But in the casual parts of the country, I suspect, it went down fine. In any case, that’s who Palin is."

Umm, no it didn't. This was extracted from the Op-Ed page and therefore represents an opinion (of a regular columnist). Lemme guess, it was linked by a site you read to validate your views to provide further validation?

Sarah Palin did well enough last night that there was no need to pursue the "Gwen Ifill has a liberal agenda" defense (which was being readied). Though the Governor did get a chance to play the victim card elsewhere, specifically Fox News, where she complained Katie Couric had refused to allow her to dominate those interviews cuz she wanted to emphasize that Obama is a first-class schmuck. Instead, Ms. Couric like had the temerity to inquire about the Governor's views on Supreme Court decisions. That's kinda hard to discuss if ya can't name more than one, but never mind.

By contrast, conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer actually provides insightful criticism of Obama (and is therefore worth reading). I know, know, Governor Palin reads "all the newspapers"so I'm sure she's seen it. In today's column, entitled "Cool Barry vs Hail Mary," he as much as concedes the election to Obama, noting "he's got both a first-class intellect and a first-class temperament. That will likely be enough to make him president."

It's good enough for me, no more of this victim stuff peddled by the Right.

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“When we kicked — along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, “Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don’t know — if you don’t, Hezbollah will control it.” . . .

What on earth is Senator Biden talking about here?

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goodDonkey - "You betcha Biden won the debate doggone it"

Har! Good one. You know, these polls are amazing. It was obvious to me that on the issues, from the financial crisis to energy to Iraq, Palin was making a whole lot more sense than Biden.

I cannot believe that Americans will have a brain fart big enough to elect Barack Obama and Joe Biden to the White House. Yeah, I know, we elected Bill Clinton - twice - but this would be far worse.

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What on earth is Senator Biden talking about here?

Well Governor Palin sure showed him up to be a doofus when she called him on it now didn't she?

I can't figure out, tho, for the likes of me what she meant when Katie Couric posed the same question SezWho did in his above post about what happens when holding an election yields an outcome unfavorable to the US:

"Yeah, well especially in that region, though, we have to protect those who do seek democracy and support those who seek protections for the people who live there. What we're seeing in the last couple of days here in New York is a president of Iran, Ahmadinejad, who would come on our soil and express such disdain for one of our closest allies and friends, Israel ... and we're hearing the evil that he speaks and if hearing him doesn't allow Americans to commit more solidly to protecting the friends and allies that we need, especially there in the Mideast, then nothing will."

Huh, so I take it we're going to protect Hamas under a McCain administration? Better keep mum about that in front of the Israelis. When the person answering appears to have no understanding of the question, well that's mighty troubling in my book.

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coulrophobic ( 9:57 ) - Good question!

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I see Betzee has no idea what Biden was talking about either.

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I see Betzee has no idea what Biden was talking about either.

But I wasn't in the debate, Sarge. Sarah Palin, by contrast, was and could have demonstrated her knowledge by calling him on it, right? And scored some real points in doing so, don't ya think?

Look, I knew McCain misspoke when he talked about growing problems on the Pakistan-Iraq border since they don't share one. It happens, but when the person doesn't appear to understand the question, which has been widely discussed in the very newspapers she couldn't name but claims to read, well that's another matter.

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If you want to go back to debate gaffes, who can forget President Gerald Ford's claim Poland was independent of the Soviet Union in 1976? Wouldn't have stopped me from voting for him (had I been old enough to do so), even though he, like Biden, appeared to be living in another universe at the moment he made the statement (and backed it up under questioning no less).

I guess you guys are just waiting to pounce on the other side's errors, while not acknowledging your own. That's an even more frightening universe, frankly.

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Biden uttered some doozy's last night on his supposed speciality - foreign policy. He just made up stuff trying to show everyone that he was the smartest person in the room. He has a arrogance problem that causes him to stretch the truth. The man has decades of experience in the Senate and for some reason he felt that he needed to embellish his policy knowledge - it didn't make much sense at all.

By the way, what is a 'Bosniac'?

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Senator Biden:Well Gwen, two years ago Barack Obama warned about the sub prime mortgage crisis.

There is nothing to substantiate this.

It is a lie.

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More on Biden's foreign policy mistakes:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/10/the_vp_debate_bidens_distortio.html#more

The man is beginning to seem unqualified to be VP - despite his decades of experience - he doesn't understand the world.

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Senator Biden:Well Gwen, two years ago Barack Obama warned about the sub prime mortgage crisis. There is nothing to substantiate this. It is a lie.

And no one has found any evidence Governor Palin met with any Russian trade delegation, as she told Katie Couric. There are always photos of things like that, given her short tenure certainly the Governor's office could produce one to substantiate her claim (if it was true).

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Palin said:

And with the surge that has worked we're now down to pre-surge numbers in Iraq.

She goes on to speak about the strategy of now putting those troops in Afghanistan. She was wrong. She did not utter a simple mistake but one that leaves it impossible to put troops in Afghanistan. Today the troop levels are at around 152,000. This just announced: Troop levels will remain steady in Iraq through next year, thanks to the addition of 26,000 troops scheduled for 2009 to offset reassignments.

The Department of Defense announced that six Army brigades, a National Guard unit and three military headquarters will begin deploying this winter, and will continue to do so throughout the summer of 2009. Admittedly earlier this month, President George W. Bush announced that about 8,000 U.S. troops would be withdrawn from Iraq by February.

Even with Bush educating you Republicans with fuzzy math I think the numbers speak for their selves. Palin lied. We have lost more troops this year than any year since the first year. We will continue to leave ourselves unprotected in Afghanistan with the McCain/Palin NeoCon plan.

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Biden...just made up stuff trying to show everyone that he was the smartest person in the room. He has a arrogance problem that causes him to stretch the truth. The man has decades of experience in the Senate and for some reason he felt that he needed to embellish his policy knowledge.

Warning, warning Biden coming in from 9 o'clock. What the heck, the man is attacking McCain and Palin from the right.

Biden echoed Obama’s call for military action against Al Qaeda targets in Pakistan and for a a many more US military than at present injected into Afghanistan. Then he claims the White House has been too soft on Hamas and the Lebanese Hezbollah. Then Biden boasts of his years of experience as advocate for US military intervention, in Bosnia in the early 1990s, in Serbia in 1999, and today advocating for militarily taking oil-rich Sudan, and on the back of the misery of Darfur as a pretext.

Hard man. I guess Palin is going to need to get meaner.

In response to one question from moderator Gwen Ifill of PBS, Biden boasted of his long experience as an advocate of US military interventions overseas, going back to Bosnia in the early 1990s, the US bombing of Serbia in 1999, and ongoing efforts to engineer a major military push in oil-rich Sudan, using the mass suffering in Darfur as a pretext.

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The last section paragraph above shoud be in quotes.

"On domestic policy, the debate was framed by the agreement of both parties on the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Obama, McCain, and Biden all voted for the bailout legislation the day before the vice presidential debate, demonstrating that, despite the exchange of charges and countercharges, the two campaigns share a common standpoint."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/deba-o04.shtml

But read the whole article, it will throw a spotlight onto the whole inane posturing of the Democratic party as an alternative to the Republicans.

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Its good that people are questioning the half truths and lies behind Palin's (and McCain's) utterances. But to be honest to yourself you need to look long and hard also at what Biden said during the debates and at what Obama has been offering.

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Palin said:

Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year. That's a lot of middle income average American families to increase taxes on them [garbled language]. I think that is the way to kill jobs and to continue to harm our economy.

For any tax increase on a couple, earnings would have had to have been $83,000 and a family of four would have had to have earned at least $90,000. It was a resolution which would not have raised taxes on its own, without additional legislation. There is no such tax increase in Obama's current tax plan. Also a minor note. The vote took place on March 14 of this year, not last year as Palin said.

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Palin said:

He's proposing a $5,000 tax credit for families so that they can get out there and they can purchase their own health care coverage. That's a smart thing to do. That's budget neutral. That doesn't cost the government anything as opposed to Barack Obama's plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program and unless you're pleased with the way the federal government has been running anything lately,

We have a double distortion here. She is learning to squeeze them into less time because of debate time restrictions I suppose.

First off, independent experts contradict Palin's claim of a cost-free program. The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center estimates that McCain's plan, which at its peak would cover 5 million of the uninsured, would increase the deficit by $1.3 trillion over 10 years. Obama's plan, which would cover 34 million of the uninsured, would cost $1.6 trillion over that time period. The nonpartisan U.S. Budget Watch's fiscal voter guide estimates that McCain's tax credit would increase the deficit by somewhere between $288 billion to $364 billion by the year 2013, and that making employer health benefits taxable would bring in between $201 billion to $274 billion in revenue. That nets out to a shortfall of somewhere between $14 billion to $163 billion – for that year alone.

Secondly, Palin also said that Obama’s plan would be "universal government run" health care and that health care would be taken over by the feds. That's not the case at all. Obama’s plan would not replace or remove private insurance, or require people to enroll in a public plan. It would increase the offerings of publicly funded health care.

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Palin said:

But when you talk about Barack's plan to tax increase affecting only those making $250,000 a year or more, you're forgetting millions of small businesses that are going to fit into that category. So they're going to be the ones paying higher taxes thus resulting in fewer jobs being created and less productivity.

It's simply untrue that "millions" of small business owners will pay higher federal income taxes under Obama's proposal. According to an analysis by the independent Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, several hundred thousand small business owners, at most, would have incomes high enough to be affected by the higher rates on income, capital gains and dividends combined that Obama proposes. That counts as "small business owners" even those who merely have some sideline income from such endeavors as freelance writing, speaking or running rental properties, and who get the bulk of their income from employment elsewhere.

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An exchange between Biden and Palin:Biden:

The fact is that our commanding general in Afghanistan said today that a surge – the surge principles used in Iraq will not – well, let me say this again now – our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan, not Joe Biden, our commanding general in Afghanistan. He said we need more troops. We need government-building. We need to spend more money on the infrastructure in Afghanistan.

/

Palin: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one, and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan.

Palin got newly appointed Gen. David D. McKiernan's name wrong when she called him McClellan. And, more important, Gen. McKiernan clearly did say that surge principles would not work in Afghanistan.

Washington Post reported:

"The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution.

However, it is worth noting that McKiernan also said that Afghanistan would need an infusion of American troops "as quickly as possible." Palin's make believe troops that have been reduced from the surge will not do in this urgent need.

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Where Governor Palin failed the American people was on this point: she failed to remind older voters and inform the younger that back in 1973 Senator Biden was one of only five senators who opposed a bill that eventually opened up Alaska's massive petroleum reserves to commercial exploitation, legislation enacted in response to the first of the many opportunities oil-rich Arab kingdoms have taken, in complicity with the Democratic Party, to screw the American consumer, among other nefarious aims.

America now gets approximately 20 percent of its domestic supply of oil from Alaska.

In explanation of his opposition at the time Senator Biden cited the threat to the local caribou population.

Near the Alaska pipeline, which has created tens of thousands of jobs for Americans and added billions of dollars to the US economy, the caribou population is now five or six times larger than it was in the 1970's.

I think Governor Palin knows that statistic.

But she is probably to young to remember or to have been aware of Senator Biden's long-standing opposition to energy independence for America.

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Wow , so many posts to read within a day’s time.. Nippon 5 From what has went on in the last eight years, I feel fine as to show support for someone different, and of a different view of the future, because the direction the GOP has taken us has left us right where we are today and that is not good. McCain has been in politics much longer than Obama and as the record shows his standing with Bush as like his second child as his voting record has been…. 90 or 94 percent with Bush??? Now look where we are today.

I sure the hell would not stand on his views of the future. Sure he walks and talks the ideas that Obama has stated long before this time of the election, but who has stood ground on the issues of economy, energy, healthcare, 401Ks etc etc. Maybe he is just one person, but you may forget or try and deny it, but the rest of the politicians as well will come up for re-election and they as well could be changed. You have to start from some place in the system, so why not start with the one that holds the veto pen in his hand? Someone that looks to the future in a different perspective that concentrates on the middle class and the lower class that are the ones that are hurting across the country.. I see Obama being something different, fresh, and new which I find much better of a choice than someone that has all the backing of the large corporations that is funding his campaign and which I see as having a monopoly on business more than as you have described as free enterprise. When only a few hold the power of regulating their own profits, that is a monopoly, not free enterprise and in such cases, they need over sight so they stop ripping all of us off!!!!! Free enterprise needs competition, if there is none then it is a monopoly and because so many big corporations have no competition they are holding a monopoly as they keep running down the numbers of smaller companies as they keep being bought out or having to close down.

I am disappointed in both candidates as for neither one really has concentrated on our 700 billion dollar trade deficit and the building of the economy of China , where all of our goods are produced, and compared to our economy that has gone sour and jobs are gone and continually going overseas and no one doing anything about it. We build others to double digit grown figures as we support them buy importing their products and giving other the opportunities to get up out of bed to go to work to make our goods we need instead of our own people getting up to go to work to make the goods we need.. Plus we are supporting those that see us as their future threat and building their militaries to the max to face us.. There is a real conflict of interest here!!!! McCain always talks about free trade and global economy, and I see we need to balance trade and put the brakes on trade with those that just use us and their policies do not fall in line with our own… I am hoping this is where Obama may step up to the plate, because I am definitely sure Bush’s buddy McCain will not. We need changes and McCain is not one of those that will produce changes because he is an insider that has just went along with the status quo that has brought us to this point.. Obama is a fresh view.

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I am disappointed in both candidates as for neither one really has concentrated on our 700 billion dollar trade deficit and the building of the economy of China , where all of our goods are produced, and compared to our economy that has gone sour and jobs are gone and continually going overseas and no one doing anything about it.

Bang on! They barely touched on it at all.

In fact they both studiously avoided engaging in any kind of discussion on the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Which was glaringly obvious because most of the TV viewing audience would have been waiting for the blame game over the cause of the virtual leveling of the American economy. There has ever been only one financial crises bigger than the one America now faces (and likely the entire world) - and that was the Great Depression.

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Palin trounced Biden. I am watching the news now, and they over whelmingly agree that Palin won the debate. Obvioulsy they have a few uber liberals who disagree, but they are in the minority.

A lot of Bidens anwswers were lies, and that's a fact. Palin asnwered honestly in a down to earth syle, regular folk admire, she has class.

I would be happy to see either McCain or Palin as president.

The US would become a poorer and weaker nation if socialst Obama were to win.

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MrDick

Palin asnwered honestly in a down to earth syle, regular folk admire, she has class.

Surely did. It was a relief no doubt for you not to hear Palin repeat her belief that dinosaurs and human beings walked the earth together 6000 years ago.

The US would become a poorer and weaker nation if socialst Obama were to win.

You have little need to worry then, not for the immediate future at least. Before America become Socialist it will become a Dictatorship.

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"dinosaurs and human beings walked the earth together 6000 years ago"

Heck, dinosaurs and human beings walk the Earth together today - well, actually the dinosaurs mostly fly these days - they're called birds.

"Before America becomes Socialist it will become a Dictatorship."

With all these guns in the hands of our citizens? I don't think so.

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Recall how poorly Senator Biden did this year in his third or fourth (I've lost count) Democratic presidential primary and then look at these numbers for the Palin - Biden debate on Thursday:

" 33% higher than Friday’s top-of-the-ticket debate between John McCain and Barack Obama (52.4 million).

61% higher than the 2004 vp debate between Dick Cheney and John Edwards (43.6 million).

23% higher than the 1984 match up between George Bush and Geraldine Ferrarro (56.7 million), the former title-holder for the most-watched vp debate."

People didn't turn on their TVs to watch Senator Biden.

OCTOBER 03, 2008 Final: 69,989,000 viewers -- Palin-Biden the most-watched vp debate ever James Hibberd

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Sarge

Well, basically its going to get messy.

There is no way a very large number of "our citizens" who will very soon find themselves in a truly dire financial situation are going to accept the kind of regulations that will be imposed on them by the government in the coming years. They will find it particularly difficult to accept given the massive amount of wealth in the hands of the very few who rule them.

A dictatorship is a definite responsibility, and that involves the suppression of many kinds of freedoms one might expect in a democracy. One of those freedoms you won't could automatically expect to have rescinded in the US is the right of citizens to carry arms, and nor is it likely they will be able to own them.

So my guess is if a dictatorship is where you are going, and I believe that to be true, yes, things will get a bit messy.

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Ha ha

"A dictatorship is a definite responsibility". That's was a revealing slip up. I meant this. "A dictatorship is a definite possibility"

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Where Governor Palin failed the American people was on this point: she failed to remind older voters and inform the younger that back in 1973 Senator Biden was one of only five senators who opposed a bill that eventually opened up Alaska's massive petroleum reserves to commercial exploitation, legislation enacted in response to the first of the many opportunities oil-rich Arab kingdoms have taken, in complicity with the Democratic Party, to screw the American consumer, among other nefarious aims.

I'm not going to address environmental concerns, or the economic impact of the Valdez oil spill on affected coastal communities in Alaska. Suffice to say, buying from overseas suppliers, in a market exchange, negated the possibility of such disasters happening here.

John McCain, once the greenest of Republicans which was part of his claim to maverick status, caved on energy policy to please the Republican base. Specifically, he abstained from voting in all eight recent attempts to pass legislation that would have extended tax credits, now set to expire, to expand wind and solar power. That, too, creates jobs. More importantly, it offers the prospect of ending humanity's dependence on fossil fuels altogether (and, in the process, undercutting the power of governments like Iran and Russia making it unnecessary for us to incur the costs necessary to take them on, as McCain wants to do).

As recently as this summer, McCain supported efforts to reduce the federal gas tax, never mind that Uncle Sam can't afford it. This would have had the immediate effect of promoting consumption as well as intensifying America's long-time addiction to oil (regardless of where it comes from).

In sum, oil drilling, not innovation of renewable energy, is the centerpiece of the Republican Party's energy policy today. The only place where Governor Palin exhibited superior mastery of the facts relating to energy policy, past or present, was when she corrected her opponent after he referred to this as "drill, drill, drill" rather than its proper name, "Drill, Baby, Drill" (a jingle Christie Hefner now wants to use in a commercial).

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Wolfpack,

In addition to not being specific about Biden's supposed grievous errors in your first post, you supplied a non-working link to them in your second. It would be nice if you would present the evidence before you ask us to hang a man.

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Sarge,

I think the point about socialism, dictatorship and guns is that when a dictatorship comes to America, the guns will be supporting it.

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The only socialism that has come to the US in the last few weeks is corporate socialism brought to us by the bush administration. No guns needed there. Just typical katrina-like failure.

Just like bush's medical drug plan and his tax plan, its a massive transfer of cash from the taxpayers to the rich.

mccain is more of the same make the rich richer schemes. Only Obama can stop this ongoing fraud of the american taxpayers.

shock and awe, massive failure by bush and the republicans

sub and prime, massive failure by bush and the republicans

mccain and palin, more of the same.

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If and when America ever becomes a socialist country, be quick ,join the government ,share the power,share the wealth,share the corruption because that's where all the money and power accumulate...just like China!

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If and when America ever becomes a socialist country, be quick ,join the government ,share the power,share the wealth,share the corruption because that's where all the money and power accumulate...just like China!

First up, China is running a Capitalist economy fully integrated with the global economy.

Secondly, China implemented the Maoist Communist model of an economic and political systerm after they evicted the Japanese Imperial Army. That is true. But this was an adaption of the Stalinist model reshaped by Mao to fit the rural peasant society that made up most of China. It was a dictatorship, ruled by a nationalist bureaucracy.

That is not Socialism.

The only true example of Marxist Socialism to have existed was for a short period of time beginning with the October 1917 take over of government by the Bolsheviks and only up until Joseph Stalin's take-over in 1924 when his faction pushed for greater market liberalisation. From there Stalin did away with the Socialist conception of an International organisation replacing it with

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a heavily bureacratized central government with Stalin as general secretary. Stalin's concept of Socialism was nationalist, that is Socialism within one state.

This plainly as history has made clear is a recipe for disaster on a horrifically large scale, but this is the nature of dictatorship after all. This is what can take place when democracy is stamped out.

That most certainly is not where any country would want to be heading.

Unfortunately, dictatorship is what will eventuate in order to control the population if the massive divide between rich and the poor remains when the ranks of the poor will grow huge. Remember right now that within the US approximately 1% of the population own most of the country's wealth. How will they control civil unrest that is going to emerge? It seems possible they will protect the current financial dictatorship by implementing a political dictatorship.

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Predictably is you objected to Palin's folksy style of speech you risked being branded an "elitist." I would characterize myself as a professional and that's what I look for in others, including those running for public office.

If my doctor, accountant, or hair dresser responded to a question with "Betcha" I would question their professionalism. In my opinion, it denigrates your profession, your colleagues and even yourself when you don't make the effort to speak proper English (something many of those defending Palin would no doubt wholeheartedly agree if Obama had spoken Ebonics in his debate with McCain). This may reflect old-fashioned values, but I'm too old to change and they've served me well frankly.

By contrast, anyone in secondary teaching will point out teachers should never use "ain't" or other commonly accepted colloquialisms in the classroom. The students will then assume it's OK for them as well. And, if someone expresses criticism, well then it's OK to cop an attitude and brand him/her an elitist.

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Betzee- Your post reeks of class snobbery, and envy.

She is successfull, her debates boosted McCains support and ebcouraged many to get out and vote for the right party, the Republicans.

The Uber Liberals who dominate this board are terrified of losing the election again, well let me tell ya folks, after McCain trounces Obama on Tuesday, you're hopes are way gone, you betcha!!!!

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The Uber Liberals who dominate this board are terrified of losing the election again, well let me tell ya folks, after McCain trounces Obama on Tuesday, you're hopes are way gone, you betcha!!!!

You're a little behind the curve here, bud. It's McCain who's at risk of being left in the dust and rendered irrelevant by a power-hungry Palin. I would no more publicly question the decisions of higher ups in my chain of command than I would greet them with a "Yo, wassup?"

You compared Sarah Palin to Margaret Thatcher. In fact Thatcher rarely referenced her humble origins, always spoke proper English and didn't have a chip on her shoulder about "elites" (more easily identifiable on the other side of the pond).

By contrast, at the Republican National Convention we were treated to Bay State Gov Mitt Romney railing against eastern elites. Huh??? I thought Massachusetts was, ya know, pretty darn far east, not to mention pretty elitist given that it's home to the preeminent Ivy League School (of which he just happens to be a graduate no less). Soooo, somehow, I think the American electorate is gonna see through it....

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Betzee- Palin has hit set the heart of the antion racing. Never before has such a charming candidate with her charisma been seen.

Palin even hammered the veteren Biden in the debates, she's got brains too, and did i mention morals. She has the by the bucket load, something missing from Obama and Biden.

The debate finaly showed America that Obama and Biden are unelectable.

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Socialist, Communist ,Dictatorship...etc they are just names ,theory on paper,no value and at times terrible! I always prefer democracy because for better or worse people have a chance to kick out some government they do not like. Democracy is like water ,free to flow and if stucked, people power will try to remove the obstacle.

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Never before has such a charming candidate with her charisma been seen.

Yes, the woman I sit across from at work has a pink "I Love Sarah" bumper sticker on her car (and an Obama energy sticker on her tire gauge). So, trust me, I've heard it all....

Yet, I find Frank Rich more on the mark:

McCain is looking increasingly shaky, whether he’s repeating his “Miss Congeniality” joke twice in the same debate or speaking from notecards even when reciting a line for (literally) the 17th time (“The fundamentals of our economy are strong”) or repeatedly confusing proper nouns that begin with S (Sunni, Shia, Sudan, Somalia, Spain). McCain’s “dismaying temperament,” as George Will labeled it, only thickens the concerns. His kamikaze mission into Washington during the bailout crisis seemed crazed. His seething, hostile debate countenance — a replay of Al Gore’s sarcastic sighing in 2000 — didn’t make the deferential Obama look weak (as many Democrats feared) but elevated him into looking like the sole presidential grown-up.

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Betzee- Those who have lost an online argument resort to cut and paste. Bwahahahaha.

Palin has made so many folk decide to vote Republican, Obama must be wishing he picked Bill wife. Palin can debate with the best of them, and she HAS anough experience to lead our nation if need be.

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I think that Biden could have crushed Palin and humilated her, but he was very kind and generous. His mannerisms showed it. But if he DID crush her, my point here is... ultimately, she might win more people over to herself. "Oh! She is so かわいそ~~!!"

On a different note, McCain is not the that much of "maverick" compared with Bush (chuckle). McCain is the intentional maverick and Bush is the unintentional maverick. I don't mean to be be insulting here ...I am just being a little silly having some fun as I wait for my flight in Narita hanging out at the Yahoo Japan Internet Cafe.

On a serious note, what the current situations of America and the world needs is NOT a "maverick". How much of mess can we allow to happen?? ...The word of the cyber-moment here is: "haphazard"! I think if people can't see that, they might have serious denial issues (intellectual dishonesty?!?!). ...It's very clear to ME. What America and the world needs is a President who will see things as it is and make the best decisions accordingly in a-partisanship. This may be impossible. But I DO think one candidate is closer to filling that description more than the other. I write these words on the wall of cyber space... Objectivity... Judgment... Decisivenss... Character...

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At her most recent rally in California Governor Palin basically called out Senator Obama for lying about the true nature of his association with the ex-Weatherman terrorist and murderer Bill Ayers.

I think the Republican "October surprise" may involve simply making public what Senator Obama hoped he could always keep hidden.

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I was expecting some Palin howlers, but she stuck pretty closely to her talking points and avoided big bloopers. (And thank god, otherwise, we´d hear them on continuous loop on all mainstream media for days).

Actually the only real outrageous howler came from Biden, when he declared that "the French had driven Hizbollah from Lebanon". Gee, someone should tell the French, the Lebanese, and Hizobollah about that. Of course, don´t hold your breath for any replay of that on CNN or MSNBC. Biden is not Palin. Different rules apply.

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Socialist, Communist ,Dictatorship...etc they are just names ,theory on paper,no value and at times terrible!

You forgot Capitalism. Still just a theory. So far it hasn't worked. At least not as a sustainable economic and political reality.

What it has been though is a step. Nothing is absolute and forever. The longer Capitalism is clung to in the hope that it can be revived the less democracy we all have, and the more miserable will be the condition of the world as a whole. That degeneration of Capitalism is not a theory. It is happening now right now.

One way to look at it is parallel the degeneration of world Capitalism with the full growth of cells in living creatures. The telomeres in a cell allow for division to take place a set number of times after which the cell deteriates and dies. If life is prolonged the living body is subject to ever more disease and corruption until it does finally die.

Capitalism's depends on natural resources and division of markets but the world has fixed parameters in terms of both dependencies. When Capitalism can no longer grow because the natural resources have reached a stage where profit can no longer be extracted (e.g. peak oil) and markets can no longer be divided it is dying.

Capitalism depends on constant growth to remain healthy. In the final stages it must eat itself, and this means war and repression of democracy.

Democracy by the way is not dependent on Capitalism. It is though dependent on the rule of the majority. Do you see now? If not you will in a couple more years, or fewer than that.

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'Capitalism depends on constant growth to remain healthy. In the final stages it must eat itself, and this means war and repression of democracy" This is just another exercise of the minds because we do not neccessarily know neither what kind of resources this constant growth depends on nor where the final stage is.Human always have the ability to change, to invent to adopt, so it is remain to be seen in the future. Not only under Capitalism but if human just keep multiply and multiply and consume more and more earth's resources; sooner or later those resources will run out or not enough for everyone. At that time ,we all have to find another way to co exist with each other if we don't want the worse,war, to come.Sure, I understand what you mean but still hope for better solution.Just imagine the day we can use any ,I mean any material, for nuclear power safely;the growth will be unlimited,isn't it?

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Hi tclh

Go to www.wsws.org

That will be a more interesting way to understand what really is quite complex, much more interesting than it would be to pick your way through economics 101.

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taniwha:

" Go to www.wsws.org "

Oh sure, the "World Socialist Website" will surely have the completely, deep and unbiased explanation on what is wrong the capitalism. LOL!

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Oh sure, the "World Socialist Website" will surely have the completely, deep and unbiased explanation on what is wrong the capitalism. LOL!

Ha ha. And what? You are saying don't have?

You know something? In times like these it is smarter to consider advice from places you never thought of going to before. Particularly when the advice you followed booted you right up your jacksie (I'm presuming you are something of a free marketeer).

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taniwha: Socialism has been tried many times and failes always. If you don´t believe, book a ticket to North Korea. The workers` paradise awaits.

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"Socialism has been tried many times and failes [sic] always"

WilliB, were you brainwashed as a child? You like Japan, right? Then surely you must know that during its economic "golden age" from 1960-1990, Japan was an economically "socialist" country. Brutally high tax rates for the top income earners. Ruthless redistribution of income to ensure social stability and a "classless" society. If you want to talk about a workers' paradise, Japan at that time was definitely it. And it most definitely did not fail.

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MASSWIIPE- If it did not fail, what is the 18 year recession all about then? Biden is a closet ultra socialist, Obama is a open socialiser. They are the most dangerous men in America.

Palin humiliated Biden, hopefully that will turn people away from the Messiah. McCain will win the next debate with Obama, and that will surely make all decent, trditional thinking folk vote Republican.

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Betzee- Those who have lost an online argument resort to cut and paste. Bwahahahaha.

Nah, I was simply deferring to greater expertise. Besides, you pasted in Ann Coulter so why should I be held to a higher standard? Incidentally, Frank Rich demolished your argument that Palin was right about Michigan needing an alternative to Democratic governance. One would think the state should be ripe for the pickin', I mean with that unpopular Democratic Gov and the felonious former Mayor of Detroit. But guess what? Despite McCain's outspending Obama on advertising he found himself trailing by double digits. If he can't win there, what chance does he have in the rest of the Rust Belt?

I'm sure Mitt Romney offered to fly in to his home state and give a speech denouncing elitism to the downtrodden, how much does he have in the til?

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Betzee- Takes you over a day to come out with that, and it's not true, there is no cut and paste in my posts.

Just because you are sulking at Palin crushing Biden and know Obama is gonna lose to McCain, don't ya just love it?

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Betzee- Takes you over a day to come out with that, and it's not true,

Hey, I like to sleep at night! And the upcoming election doesn't cause me any angst. Have a nice day (I intend to).

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Betzee- Translated means you have lost the argument , but are not humble enough to admit it, bit like Biden really.

I am trouncing the liberals here , the way Palin did with Biden. Is she gonna aid McCain getting into the Whitehouse? You betcha!!!

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coulrophobic,

I wish Palin had called out Obama for lying about the truth of his association with Ayers. Then she would have been obliged to tell us what that truth was.

However, all Palin primarily did was to imply guilt by association. She also, however, managed to fail to address any of the actual facts surrounding that episode. In other words, she appealed to prejudice.

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FandB,

I am trouncing the liberals here , the way Palin did with Biden.

When my brother was 7 we had to let him outside so that he and his trusty Davy Crockett rifle could help Davy quell the unrest from the native American population. He, too, gave us constant updates on his progress.

I think it's safe to say that you are humiliating the liberals here just as Palin humiliated Biden. I'm sure most critical and informed judges would agree.

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SezWho2- Yes another Obama supporter who changes the subject, and is unable to debate, rather like the Messiah and Biden.

Looking forward to the McCian demolition job this week. Obama's past is now catching up with him, making him unelectable.

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The word 'socialism' like 'terrorism' can be tossed about endlessly. Hey, now its a label too if that is convenient to your 'argument'.

See my above post: "The only true example of Marxist Socialism to have existed was for a short period of time beginning with the October 1917 take over of government by the Bolsheviks and only up until Joseph Stalin's take-over in 1924..."

North Korea is a Maoist Communist state, just as Pol Pot's Cambodia was also. There have been others modeled on Stalinist communism, one example today is Castro's Cuba, another yesterday was Saddam's Iraq. These are all examples of dictatorships.

Whether they were based on Stalinist or Maoist Communism closely or loosely all of the above were nationalist orientated (not Internationalist!) and all were dictatorships (not Democracies).

Capitalism is attached to the concept of nation state, Socialism is not. Marxist Socialism requires that the economic and political system be embraced internationally. A planned economy is doomed to failure if it is not international. It just so happens that resources are located in specific locations and not equally distributed, hence the need to internationalise the system.

The Stalin and Mao regimes and the rest who modeled them were dictatorships who labelled their project Socialist, and then determined it to be Communist. They were rogues and villians and people suffered because of the drive of those regime's for absolute power.

Whether the Obama and Biden or the McCain and Palin team get into power you the move in America toward a nationalist dictatorship as the final result will greatly accelarate. Whether you define it as Capitalist (it will be) or socialist (you might label it as such) won't change the nature of the beast.

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Betzee- Translated means you have lost the argument , but are not humble enough to admit it, bit like Biden really.

FandB,

Are we having a debate? You simply made some assertions about how this election will play out. I suppose you feel like you're on high ground since it's impossible to be proven right or wrong about events which have yet to transpire. As a result, I can only go by your history of past predictions and, well, they indicate you don't have a great future as a bookie. Specifically, you claimed that McCain would be leading by 20 points by the end of September (which didn't happen).

As for humility, it seems to be in short supply on the Republican side. I mean when old Charlie Gibson asked Governor Palin whether, after John McCain asked her to join his ticket, upon self-reflection she felt she was "ready" or "experienced enough" to sign on she replied that she didn't "even blink."

By contrast, Clarence Thomas had this to say back in 1991: "When I stood next to the President in Kennebunkport, being nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States, that was a high honor." (I won't paste in the pity pat which followed cuz I think you get my drift.)

Like GWB, Sarah Palin compensates for her lack of experience and knowledge through brashness as well as an excessively decisive delivery (which led to claims she had "won" the debate that were not backed up by polls). The American people are gonna take a pass on her....

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Betzee- Did she beat Biden, is Obama now finished after Palin exposed his terrorsit buddy? You betcha!

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"Did she beat Biden"

You betcha! But all the polls say Biden won. Incredible, isn't it?

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is Obama now finished after Palin exposed his terrorsit buddy?

Just one little problem here, she didn't expose it (it was already a "known known" to use Donald Rumsfeld's language). So you're not gonna get any traction with it at this late date if you failed to do so earlier. She's better off expressing compassion for "people who are hurting."

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"Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school,"

The problem is, Bill Ayers is at least a generation older than Obama. His kids are already grown. By this standard, any parent of a University of Chicago Lab School student would be an associate of Bill Ayers.

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Betzee is starting to post very quickly. Must be sad that obama has gone fron Messiah to pariah overnight.

As we all know, in the end good always wins out. Palin delived a blow when she thrashd BIden in the debate, now she has delivered the killer blow, exposing Obama as tolerant of terrorists.

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Betzee is starting to post very quickly.

Simply following your lead (though nobody is likely to overtake you in that regard I am forced to concede).

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Betzee- So do you admit defeat now? Surely you don't imagine Obama can get himself out of this one?

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"MASSWIPE- If it did not fail, what is the 18 year recession all about then? Biden is a closet ultra socialist, Obama is a open socialiser. They are the most dangerous men in America."

FandB--Great, yet another "anti-socialist" broken record online. Do you even understand the technical definition of a recession? If you did, you wouldn't refer to an "18 year recession" in Japan. In case you didn't notice, Japan's extraordinary car industry (adhering to near socialistic principles of management and production) is on the verge of forcing either GM or Ford (or both) to file for bankruptcy.

If you hate socialism so much, don't you think the US Defense Department should be abolished? Rather than funneling hundreds of billions of US taxpayer dollars to the Pentagon every year, shouldn't responsibility for America's protection be handed over entirely to private militias? Would you approve of that? Somehow I doubt it.

And let's not even get started on Paulson and Bernanke's decision, with Bush's blessing, to effectively nationalize some of America's biggest financial services companies. Here you are crying about the socialism of Obama/Biden; well, socialism has already arrived in the Bush Era.

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Here you are crying about the socialism of Obama/Biden; well, socialism has already arrived in the Bush Era.

Dude, they've socialized the losses and nationalized the profits. But that's not Socialism, that's Capitalism in its dying stages. That's what happens when the wealthy have to run to the bunkers, they make the workers pay the bill. The workers after all are where added value is extracted in the first instance. That's how Capitalism works.

In fact, this is how the real character of Capitalism becomes much clearer toward the end, unfortunately.

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Taniwha dude, that was wrong.

I mean they've socialized the losses and privatized the profits.

If only they HAD nationalized the profits - but then that would be Socialism!

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that's Capitalism in its dying stages

When will capitalism be dead, Taniwa? I want to make a note to send flowers.

Seriously, you make this death sound so certain. When will it happen? I'd like to check up and see if your prediction is correct. Will we have to wait a year? Ten years? A hundred years? The last death of capitalism was the Great Depression, almost a century ago. This "death of capitalism" starting to seem like that eighth "final" Who tour. Long live rock!

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taniwha--Sorry, but my message wasn't addressed to you and I really didn't want to get a response from you. You're just as much a dogmatic broken record as people on the other side. You once called me a "racist" on this forum (I won't ever forget it, and don't you deny it), so just keep your broken record pro-socialist comments to yourself, will you?

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Nessie

Do you want like...names? As well as the numbers?

.

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"right minded moral folk" - what, the same "folk" who twice voted in the worst president America's ever had?

I don't understand support for the mentally broken war vet and this screaming harpie who wants Alaska to be independent from the USA....

Whoever wins, it's a poisoned chalice for sure, but take a lesson from the people who know - McCain/Palin is NOT the answer. Let poor old John retire and get some therapy, leave this job to a young, vital and intelligent man - Barack Obama.

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Masswipe,

Sometimes I get so stuck in my dogma it gets difficult to relate to the subtle nuance of a messages such as yours. Easier just to call it as you see it, don't you think so?

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FandB said:

As we all know, in the end good always wins out.

Careful with that statement buddy. I would hate to see you eating your words and being considered "evil" after the elections.

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f&c: "what, the same "folk" who twice voted in the worst president America's ever had?"

Jimmy Carter served only one term.

"Whoever wins, it's a poisoned chalice for sure"

So now we have non-Americans saying neither of the major candidates are fit for office, lol...

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Question: How many times did Biden mention Scranton between all his lies?

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f&c: "what, the same "folk" who twice voted in the worst president America's ever had?" Georgy W. Busch served, unfortunately for two terms.

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Bush has been successfull with a legacy of destroying terrorism and removing th Taliban and Saddam, two of the most evil and dangerous regimes in living memory.

Palin believes in carrying bon the fight in Iraq, Biden wants to "cut and ruun". Bidens attitude is not acceptable to patriots, nor is Obama's.

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Palin believes in carrying bon the fight in Iraq, Biden wants to "cut and ruun". Bidens attitude is not acceptable to patriots, nor is Obama's.

Palin wants to kill everyone. that is a fact provided by the neutral FOX news. Didn't you see? Also, do us a favor and try to spell correctly sometime? I know it may be a hard task.

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Fox news supports Palin 100%, i watch all day whilst working, so i know your claim is false.

Palin humiliated Biden, as i mentioned bfore, a fct you afil to mention, just making personal attack instead, which BTW i am immune to.

Palin showed what a dinasaur Biden is, the guys mindset is stuck in the fifties, he probably thinks Bill Haley is the latest "in" thing. Hee! Hee!

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If FandB is working as hard as he/she says, they must be making the econmy better, no wonder he/she supports Palin.

Palin certainly made Biden look like an out of touch fool, haha, it was so funny!

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sarge said:

Question: How many times did Biden mention Scranton between all his lies?

I see that you mention Biden's lies but you never give examples. The nice thing about this forum is that JT will allow you to give instances of Joe's lies and they will let you include the website or other source that your information originated from. So feel free to use this in your comments; I do it all the time.

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FandB,

I'm changing the subject? unable to debate?

I'm responding to your claim that you are trouncing the liberals here, for which you have offered no evidence. I've directly countered that claim with an example that shows that a person's own opinion of what he is doing is sometimes at odds with what he is actually doing, that--in fact--the opinion is sometimes pure fantasy. You have responded only, and incorrectly, that I have changed the subject.

If in your mind the subject is the Biden/Palin debate, I'd invite you to scroll on up and see the comments that I have made about that. When you have addressed those, we can talk more.

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FandB,

Betzee- So do you admit defeat now? Surely you don't imagine Obama can get himself out of this one?

Um, yes I can. Obama's got a double-digit lead over McCain in Virginia. And please don't nit-pick about the amount of time it took me to respond to your questions; I have to work two jobs now as a result of what GWB did to the economy.

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goodDonkey - For example, Biden wrongly claimed that McCain "voted the exact same way" as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it.

Biden's political and influential reach is so great, no fewer than 18 states think that he is their senator. Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

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I saw the debate, and surprisingly the biggest bloopers came from Biden. I had to hold on to my chair when he claimed (with straight face) that that e.g. the French had kicked out Hizbollah from Lebanon. Woha, what a foreign policy expert. Some pundits have been having fun disecting all the smaller tall tales he made up, for example the home depot store where he claimed to "spend many hours", yet none of the employees had ever seen him there. Of course, don´t expect the media to pick up any of that. Now, if Palin had delivered a blooper... well, you know. Watchful media and all that.

I drink to double standards.

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"If" Palin had delivered a blooper (as though she didn't), Biden might have caught it. Too bad she wasn't up on the fact that it Syria and not Hezbollah so that she could make a correction that would have been accurate but beside the point--like her insightful "Drill, baby. Drill," correction.

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SezWho2

" Too bad she wasn't up on the fact that it Syria and not Hezbollah so that she could make a correction "

Did you see it? It was not a give and take format. Besides, just correcting all of Bidens bloopers would have taken another hour.

If Palin had made any of that type, we would hear them day in day out now. q.e.d.

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Gaffe machine Joe Biden garnered 1 percent of the primary vote in places like Iowa.

Watching liberals defend and explain what this blowhard 'really meant' is better than watching SNL.

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WilliB,

Yes, I saw it. My point was that, format aside, if Palin could work in a trivial correction on whether the phrase was "Drill, drill, drill!" or "Drill, baby. Drill!" she could also have worked in a connection on whether the US and France had combined to push out Hezbollah or Syria--if she had noticed it.

Actually, for coulrophobic's continuing amusement, Biden's claim that Hezbollah was pushed out was not so far off base if what he was referring to was Syrian military support for Hezbollah. I rather imagine that Biden knows that Hezbollah itself has not disappeared from Lebanon. Don't you?

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