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© Copyright 2023 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.Poland pushes for more tanks for Kyiv; will seek German OK
By MONIKA SCISLOWSKA WARSAW, Poland©2024 GPlusMedia Inc.
56 Comments
2020hindsights
Blacklabel
Just watch. Soon, they will allow all Leopard 2 tanks to be delivered to Ukraine. And then they will offer some of their own surplus Leopard 2 tanks.
The take their time, but they will get around to it. And it is financially prudent to do so. If they don't allow Leopard 2 tanks to be delivered to Ukraine, nobody will want to buy more. And we know that Poland is in the market for a heap of new tanks.
It will benefit German citizens that Germany will be selling a lot of tanks in the future.
ian
They cannot not do it now can they?
So best way I think isbfor all of them to send at the same time.
ian
Of course.
And if they do, Germany will follow suit
ian
Sharing the equipment is an escalation so it will most probably lead to more escalations
Blacklabel
But the US has no German tanks.
but they have been asked to send Stacey Abrams instead.
Germany won’t do anything that has any direct consequences for themselves or their people. Smart.
ian
Then the US should have no problems giving the tanks
Blacklabel
Just whose energy supply Russia immediately cuts off.
Blacklabel
Speak that truth, my man. Preach.
ian
What would the difference be if they give it with or without Germany's approval
UChosePoorly
Blacklabel - the fact that these guys got popped implies that the sanctions are being enforced (at least in the US), no? But yes, we shouldn't be afraid to hold sanction-breakers to account. Accountability is key and these kinds of things need to be publicly seen.
ok1517
Poland and any country willing to asist should go ahead with the delivery - with or without Germany's approval to end this insane aggressor's war!
Don't wait too long, because this will only give PUTAin the chance to mobilize his last reserves and kill more innocent people! Every day wasted is a life lost for Ukraine!
Ukraine prevails!
Blacklabel
It’s just a childish game right now. If the US tells Germany it’s ok then Germany won’t tell Poland to give the tanks but wont stop them if they choose to. But then Poland will say they did it with the approval of Germany and the USA and those aren’t Polish tanks.
why are they so afraid of the sockless and blanketless Russian army that they each have to pretend the other gave the weapons?
Blacklabel
yeah, but that is not to be discussed as it’s inconvenient to a narrative that sanctions are working.
UChosePoorly
Eastman - Putin seemed to think that there was a military solution when he invaded Ukraine. Has he changed his mind now?
UChosePoorly
Blacklabel - certainly not a joke to McGonigal who may be looking at decades in prison according to that article. It seems like we may be serious in holding scofflaws to account. Thanks for sharing.
Eastman
yes its hard for warmongers to to hear about peace.and ist also hard to admit that this wont be solved by any military solution incl sending of NATO weaponry to UA.
very sad to see that if you support war its OK and if you are against war its..."off topic".
west do grave mistake as seems still underestimates Russia and its nation.pidarasi.
Russia will prevail at the end.
UChosePoorly
Perhaps, but I do know that the push is for more transparency and accountability for how our tax dollars are being spent, so I see this trend towards openness increasing for right or wrong.
Blacklabel
Yes would better to be quiet about what is being sent by whom.
But then the virtue signaling from the giver is lost as well as the Zelensky opportunity to criticize others for not giving the same or more.
Hercolobus
They are asking for permission from Germany, while now they are asking South American countries to sell their Russian weapons to the US so they can send them to Ukraine.
wtfjapan
Wouldn't it be smarter to keep the Russians in the dark about what is being sent and what isn't?
why, you make it sound like Russia hasnt any spies in foreign countries, tanks arent something that can be easily disguised and smuggled into another country,.
Anonymous
An armored engagement the size of Kursk will not happen in this war. If the battlefield expands, maybe. However, it won’t - can’t - be fought the same way. Vulnerability from the air is too great.
The “lessons” the Germans learned was to not invade a country with so little and so poor transportation infrastructure with so little appropriate transport for resupply.
wallace
The German Leopard tanks are very impressive.
Yrral
The Poles think German owe them trillion of dollars in reparation, Google Poland German Reparations
Desert Tortoise
The Eastern European nations used to have these horrible orphanages and mental hospitals where patients were systematically neglected.
We used to have mental hospitals for people with mental health problems who could not take care of themselves, but Ronnie Ray-gun emptied the state hospitals in California and closed them. The neighborhood centers that were supposed to be built to provide services for the mentally ill were never funded so many if not most ended up on the streets or a prison cell.
Michael Machida
This must make Mr. Putin ... sad. ;-((
u_s__reamer
Poland has not learned the historic lessons of going against Russia, Germany learned the lessons of Kursk and knows that it would be very expensive for any country to go against Russia..
Hmm, the Poles, sandwiched between two giants, Germany and Russia, are more than obsessed by the lessons of history, which is why using German tanks as a cat's paw to poke the bullyboy Russian Bear will give them a huge shot of schadenfreude.
Kuku
Why not, Stranger?
Kuku
Yrral
The reason Putin is still standing, because of the dysfunctional nature of NATO European members, running their mouth after the US already made a decision,that Ukrainain will not be a part of NATO
Desert Tortoise
The Poles basically backed Germany into a corner by threatening to hand some of their Leopard 2s over to Ukraine with our without the German's blessing. Bless the Poles for having the guts to do that! They broke the logjam. Now Ukraine will receive some serious armored firepower.
UChosePoorly
DT - it may be a little harder to understand for those who don't live in such a system or grow up in one. A Russian friend from b-school (Anti-Putin btw, even 10 years ago, so I know they exist) wondered why we had homeless people in my city and asked me sincerely why the government allowed these people on the streets and why we didn't just put them into camps. I remember analogous situations when I lived in Japan decades back.
Desert Tortoise
The T-90 was originally supposed to be called the T-72BM, an upgrade to the original T-72 with a fire control from the T-80 and some hull, armor and automotive upgrades. The miserable performance of T-72s during Desert Storm caused the Russians to rename the T-72BM the T-90. Branding matters it seems! But the reality is the T-90 is just a tarted up T-72 with all of the same inherent weaknesses.
bass4funk
Finally, Germany and Poland stepping up, long overdo, let’s hope they do more.
Desert Tortoise
Some of the largest armored battles ever fought were fought in Israel and Iraq long after WWII. High speed combined arms mechanized warfare is the gold standard. High quality tanks are a major part of that.
Desert Tortoise
This is not hard to understand. The public institutions of elected representative governments are expected to be transparent.
Strangerland
No one has attacked Russia. Russia on the other hand....
If Russia does not like this, Russia can simply exit Ukraine. Every day this war continues is due to Russia deciding this war should continue another day. Every dead person in this conflict is dead because of Russia's aggression. They started it, and they continue it. They need to end it.
Kuku
Axel
There was also video of them but they mostly left the theater of combat several months ago. Too expensive and too few to only leave a dent and scorch mark on the tank.
Cricky
Poland has ordered 100s of Black Panther tanks from South Korea, Abrams, the Leopards are surplus for them. Poland is increasing its military budget to 5% GDP in the expectation of a Russian attack. They would rather a cushion between The Nazi invaders and themselves. But a cushion they can re enforce.
PTownsend
Most Poles probably are well aware of the last time an invading, fascist regime was appeased, and also what life was like under the USSR and will do whatever it takes to prevent Putin's regime that seems to want to re-establish the USSR in all lands previously controlled from Moscow, from having any more control. Only the most extreme anti-westerners may want to see a newer version of fascism anywhere outside the current fascist state's borders.
Nemo
There are far fewer videos of Javelin missiles turning Russian junk into molten coffins for obvious PR reasons...
2020hindsights
TokyoLiving
Poland aren't going against, Russia, just like Ukraine isn't. Russia is going against Ukraine, and Poland would be next. Which is why they want to give Ukraine tanks.
Nemo
I think the Poles learned some rather important historical lessons. Namely:
Russians can't be trusted not to invade Poland on any excuse they can think of.
It's better to be part of a collective defense organization. For all the tough talk of its fan bois, Russia isn't going to do d in regards to "teaching Poland a lesson" as long ads NATO remains strong.
Poland assisting other democracies defend themselves from Russian aggression is the same thing as defending Poland from Russian aggression.
So I guess Poland DID learn historical lessons from the Soviet invasion, division, and occupation, eh?
2020hindsights
Bronco
Russia can't just build a heap of T-90 tanks in response.
Sure. That's why they need modern tanks.
Sure, those old tanks, but some of these modern tanks, including the T-90, are more resilient.
And, in Ukraine, tanks are a necessary, part of an invasion.
Nemo
Yeah, this is not true.
Russia can repair the damaged tanks it hasn't abandoned now, much less produce new ones in mass.
Maybe that's why the Russians are taking their T-62s out of museums and sending them to Ukraine. Had you not noticed that or did it just not fit in with your narrative?
And the T-90 has proven to be nothing more than a more expensive mobile crematorium for its crews than the T-72.
Nemo
In large part due to the battle of 73 Easting in 91 where and advance detachment of M1s and M2s encountered and destroyed a much larger force of the best the Soviets had to offer (the same junk the Russians use now) with not a single loss of their own.
So a better statement would be "the age of grand Russian tank battles has long been over."
Axel
There are many videos on Telegram of the much vaunted "Switchblades" bouncing right off Russian tanks. Even Russian drones typically burn the tank but the Nasties inside can get out and scurry to safety.
TokyoLiving
Poland has not learned the historic lessons of going against Russia, Germany learned the lessons of Kursk and knows that it would be very expensive for any country to go against Russia..
Axel
Already has in anticipation.
Axel
As for the American and German tanks, the concerns about training, logistics and theater of combat are very real but the biggest concern is how it will look to show "the best, invincible tanks" destroyed and on fire by the 10s or 100s. However many they send and however many of those venture to the front. The British don't really have to worry about that because no one buy their tanks other than the British themselves.
2020hindsights
Bronco
No.
Russia can't just build a heap of T-90 tanks in response.
No, they can't. Russia have already made their threats and Germany is still coming around to giving the go ahead.
Kuku
Most likely maintenance training.
Nemo
The Poles told Germany " You can give us your blessing or we can send them anyway."
So Germany is now most likely going to say OK.
Given the stocks of NATO members not directly on the front lines, this could amount to hundreds of modern MBTs that are more reliable, have better protection and far better targeting systems than the junk the Russians have (and with which the UA has been making do).
Unlike the Russians desalination p!an for a salt mine or its targeting of civilians, this would actually have a strategic impact on the battlefield.
Wagner group might need a lot more cannon fodder...
2020hindsights
Poland has a big incentive to arm Ukraine. If Ukraine falls, Poland has a land border with Putin.
It will happen. Germany will allow Leopard II's to be given to Ukraine, and then they will send some of their own.
Kuku
Leopards have already been spotted on the territory of Ukraine. but one small observation: some of these tanks go directly to the repair workshops :) Why are you sending junk to Ukrs? you are scattering words of love for Ukraine here, but are sending trash.