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Poles furious after Russia blames them for starting WWII

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By VANESSA GERA

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World War II began after Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union sealed a pact in 1939 that included a secret provision to carve up Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe.

Nothing has changed. Putin prompts his Ambassador to blame the Polish People. Putin is no better than Hitler's campaign of despotism.

How anyone could blame the Polish People for Hitler's genocide is proof of Putin's intent; the slaughter of Europe and installation of a Russian dictatorship over the twenty odd Nations he hopes to destroy. Good thing the Russian People hate Putin as much as the lies he tells

2 ( +4 / -2 )

"Moscow has also protested a Polish town’s dismantling of a monument to a Soviet World War II general, threating Warsaw with “most serious consequences” for that."

Another invasion, no doubt.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Europe also has her own disagreement of history views. Just like China,south Korea vs Japan

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

And the Russian massacre of Polish officer prisoners was another act of Polish aggression, no doubt. That Stalin, he was such a victim.....

5 ( +6 / -1 )

There are no reasons for Poles to be infuriated. Soviet actions were urgent preventive measures to stop an early full-scale NAZI invasion into Soviet territory.

@gelendestrasse"That Stalin, he was such a victim"

Stalin was a war leader. Under his rule Soviets stopped NAZIs and turned them back, whether you like it or not.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Yamashi@the Poles were putting up a decent resistance against the German invasion -- Poland, unlike France, never surrendered -- and would certainly have done better if the Soviets hadn't stabbed them in the back. Poland's entire officer corps, numbering something like 24,000, was executed and buried in the Katyn Forest and other locations on the signed orders of Stalin. Over the next two years Stalin was to purge even more of his own officers, leaving the Red Army in terrible shape to deal with the Nazi onslaught in June 1941. With "war leaders" like that, it's a miracle they emerged victorious.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

It's called the slaughter at Katyn. The soviets murdered the Polish officers. Only a few years ago one burial site was discovered. The soviets were nearly as bad as the nazis. Regarding the soviets stopping Nazi's and turning them back was luck. Not brilliant leadership, not brilliant tactics, and not the will of the Soviet fighters. It was a series of poor decisions made by nazi leadership and the severe winter.

Poland was a victim from both nazi Germany's and the soviets. Poland lost millions of innocent people under it occupation.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The ambassador is absolutely right. Poland was an ally of Hitler, gladly participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia. For that Churchill called Poland "a hyena". Soviets several times proposed an alliance with Poland in 30s, but the Poles refused, they hoped to invade USSR alongside Hitler. "Big mistake", as Schwarzenegger used to say in his movies.

gelendestrasse, GalapagosnoGairaishu

And the Russian massacre of Polish officer prisoners was another act of Polish aggression

if the Soviets hadn't stabbed them in the back. Poland's entire officer corps, numbering something like 24,000, was executed and buried in the Katyn

First, there are solid facts that the massacre of Polish prisoners was in fact made by Germans. Second, before 1939 there was another invasion - the invasion of Russia by Polish army in 1920-21, during the Russian civil war. That was a real agression. Poles then massacred tens of thousands of Soviet prisoners in their camps and grabbed a good chunk of Soviet territory. Stalin just returned the favour.

MarkG

Not brilliant leadership, not brilliant tactics, and not the will of the Soviet fighters

Have you ever read a book on WWII? At least try Wikipedia, read about battle of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Operation Bagration. 75 percent of all German armed forces were destroyed by the Soviet Army.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

First, there are solid facts that the massacre of Polish prisoners was in fact made by Germans.

That lie is so outrageous and shameless that I refuse to debate it further, with you or anyone else.

Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre bbc.com/news/world-europe-11845315

Seventy years too late: Russia finally admits slaughter of 20,000 Polish officers at Katyn was on Stalin’s orders dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333394/Seventy-years-late-Russia-finally-admits-slaughter-20-000-Polish-officers-Katyn-Stalin-s-orders.html

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it -- Edmund Burke

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@MarkG "Not brilliant leadership, not brilliant tactics".

Hardly bombings of innocent Japanese women and children were examples of better tactics than Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Berlin. People who defended so-called House of Pavlov killed more NAZIs than French troops during NAZI invasion in France. Since Cold War times westerners constantly try to belittle various Soviet achievements, including heroism in wars but as result they humiliate themselves.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

In my opinion, no country had it worse than Poland in WW2. Czar Putin is ramping up nationalistic feelings, wagging the dog while gas prices remain low.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

They're Russian. Let the little people be little people.

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World War II began after Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union sealed a pact in 1939 that included a secret provision to carve up Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe.

What happens -when people trying to "invent" history....

It's all happens in 20th century - we have lot of documents - it's not time of Hammurabi ...

Problem - that nobody in West need truth - this truth TOO ugly to show ut to public... So some fairy tales are created...

Hitler can be stopped very easely in 30 th - Germany had no Army at all in that glorious times..

But somebody help A Hitler took Austria , Czechoslovakia

Somebody does not interfered whe Hitler created Luftwaffe and Panzerwaffe..

Somebody was on Hitler side... all this time. And this was NOT Josef Stalin..

About Poland - Poland was even worse enemy of USSR in 20th 30 th ...

Poland blocked all attempts to create anti-Hitler block in East Europe...

Polish generals hate Russia and dreamed about a large march to the east together with the Nazis.....

as a result, they got what they deserved from their German bell amis ...

They're Russian. Let the little people be little people.

The Werhmacht was destroyed not by such Great nations as Polish, English, French or American ..

By little Russian....

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

“The narrative presented by the highest official representative of the Russian state in Poland undermines the historical truth and reflects the most hypocritical interpretation of the events known from the Stalinist and communist years,” the ministry said in a statement.

It sounds like the Russians created this current narrative fallacy to add to their cultural myths and fictions in the hopes of boosting nationalistic feelings. The Russians have assembled this latest narrative using bits of truths and cherrypicked facts. Their historians have chosen these to be their dots to make a case against Poland while at the same time defending themselves, and then connected the dots in a plausible way to show causal relationships.

Too often history books belong in the fiction section of libraries and bookstores.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Olegek

we have lot of documents

How many of these documents are available for people other than selected Russian bureaucrats to see?

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When it comes to World War II everyone gets to have some blame. The biggest blame falls on Hitler who lied about his intensions (just Sudetenland and no more), broken every non-aggression pact that he ever made and the second biggest blame falls on everyone who got taken in, and that is everyone to greater or less extent who ended fighting him. This includes Stalin. He was unprepared when Hitler finally decided to screw him in 1941.

Poland's missteps were as follows Polish president Józef Piłsudski believed he had more to fear from the Soviet Union than Nazi Germany, which led to the German - Polish Non-Aggression Pact of 1934. On this topic, Wikipedia writes: "Piłsudski regarded the new chancellor [Hitler] as less dangerous than his immediate predecessors, going back to Gustav Stresemann, and saw the Soviet Union as the greater threat, to the point where he opposed French and Czechoslovak efforts to include the Soviet Union in a common front against Nazi Germany." It is rumored that Pitsudski was pushing France to start a preemptive war on Germany.

After Poland signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler, Hitler started making demands. Germany wanted the Free City of Danzig (Gdansk) and it wanted railroads and highways from Danzig to East Prussia. Poland refused. On 1 September 1939, Hitler trashed the non-aggression pact and invaded Poland.

Backstep. On 23 August 1939 Germany and the Soviet Union signed the The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, officially the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It is true there was a secret agreement between Hitler and Stalin about dividing up "spheres of influence," cutting Poland in half. This was revealed and denounced in 1989 by the Soviet Union under Gorbachev. Since then it has been defended by some in capitalist Russia, one supposedly being Putin. (I don't trust anything anyone says about Putin these days).

Very shortly after Germany invaded Poland, the Soviet Union invaded its part of Poland (under the Pact). Yes, this was defensive and yes it was also aggression that violated the Soviet-Polish Non-Agression Pact of 1932. In so doing Stalin was careful in not offending the Nazis, and in fact nominally helped them.

A side note. After the German-Soviet non-aggression pact was signed, the Soviet Union stopped all of its anti-Fascist and anti-Nazi propaganda. Stalin insisted that all Communist Parties abroad hew to the Moscow party line. This caused a huge schism amongst Leftwing parties.

In the end, Stalin's biggest compromise did not keep the Soviet Union out of war.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Russian Ambassador Sergey Andreev on Friday described the Soviet’s 1939 invasion of Poland as an act of self-defense, not aggression.

The man is worthy of his job: representing his country.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

We'll see how "worthy of his job" the ambassador is soon. This is not the sort of thing ambassadors are supposed to say. Clearly, the Soviet invasion of "their" part of Poland, following on the heels of the German invasion, was meant to keep Hitler in check while, somehow, not ticking him off. As I said, this invasion violated the Polish-Soviet non-aggression pact of 1932. Here is the awful probable outcome. If the Soviets hadn't invaded "their" part of Poland, the Germans would have. And that would have been a lot worse.

A few caveats regarding my previous posting.

When I said everyone shares some blame for WWII I was thinking of people in power and with power. That is what my positing was about. I do not iblame Hitler's most helpless victims: Jews, Roma, LGBT people and disabled people (for starters).

Of course, Hitler made more demands on Poland that what I mentioned. Hitler's primary intentions on Poland were Germanization and elimination of everything else. When Hitler decided to invade the Soviet Union part of his agenda was genocidal.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

An invader blaming the invasion on the country being invaded, imagine that. Japan would be proud; China deserved to be invaded to stop Western takeover.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

We'll see how "worthy of his job" the ambassador is soon. This is not the sort of thing ambassadors are supposed to say

You'll get my drift thinking of 'his country', the country implied.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Russia sounds like it's becoming more and more unhinged every day.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Okay, I was just reading about the one-fingered idiot trying to climb Everest. For this idiot, I have but one finger on each hand!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Nice synopsis, kabuki. I'd also suggest that the roots of Russian paranoia extend further back, to the Polish-Lithuanian Confederation, which peaked in the 17th c., stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea and incorporating even some western Russian territory.

This, of course, in no way excuses Russia's abetting Hitler's actions at the war's outbreak nor their criminal actions during the early part of the war; however, understanding their astoundingly long memory, ability to carry a grudge seemingly forever, and fearful insecurity verging on paranoia is key to understanding how to deal with the contemporary country.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

PTownsend we have lot of documents/ How many of these documents are available for people other than selected Russian bureaucrats to see?

Sorry - after WW2 rested - millions of people who participated, documentary films, photos, huge amount of documents in all countries that participated in this war.

Nobody has a monopoly to truth about WW2.

engineering the famine that killed more than 5 million of his own people, and the Great Purge, in which 680,000 people were shot in 1937 and 1938,

1 Are you shure about 100 % precision of that facts ?

2 We talking about foreign policy - by the way US also has some starving people in 30th... a lot of them...

Americans just try to forget....

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Forget about rewriting history.

I think what people need to remember here is that the Russians and Poles hate each other. Want to know how that is working out? Here is a hint. Per capita GNP of Poland and Russia are about equal, but Russia has vast fossil fuel production and Poland has almost none.

Russia's GNP is about equal to that of Tohoku. It is less if you take out fossil fuels and more if you include them. It has not been growing recently, as any headlines will inform an observer. It cracks into the top 10 of national GNP data and then fades. It consistently shoots itself in the foot. The schmuck of the world community, bullying and blustering and failing.

Poland has grown since the 90s at an extremely high rate, with GNP now about 40% of Russia's. It is also not relying on fossil fuels for that GNP, so it can be expected to continue.

So you put them in a room together, and of course it will be the Russian making the slur on the Pole. Poland has a bright future ahead. Russia, not so much.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

 that the Russians and Poles hate each other. Want to know how that is working out? Here is a hint. Per capita GNP of Poland and Russia are about equal, but Russia has vast fossil fuel production and Poland has almost none

The main problem of modern western society - worsening education standarts. Education created west supremacy education destroyed it...

It so pleasent to think about Russia as a some sort of Saudi Arabia...

The problem- Russia is not Saudi Arabia..

For example whole West should use Russian rockets to achieve International Space Station

US buys Rocket engines in.. not Japan of course but in Russia..

Russia produces a different models of modern interseptors 4 ++ generation

US can offer to its allies - magic F 35

Russia has build NEW cosmodrom in far east..

Russia unlike US produced a new generation of ballistic rockets...

Russia develops military supersonic rockets

like US and China...

just learn more...

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I actually support this kind of stuff from Russia. Russia is withdrawing from the world and has a shrinking economy. They still can't seem to forge any allies and they have done little to nothing to move their economy away from volatile natural resources. Their currency has collapsed and state workers are taking more and more pay cuts. Rewriting history fits in nicely with their plans to keep their country outside of the international community.

Putin has a high approval rating and you can include me if he promises to keep Russia limping along as a second rate gas station. I hope he stays in power for decades and drains Russia dry.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

5SpeedRacer5. Where did you get the information that Poles and Russians hate each other? You can cite some studies, quote some statistics?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@SuperLib

they have done little to nothing to move their economy away from volatile natural resources. Their currency has collapsed and state workers are taking more and more pay cuts

Somebody heard too much of Obama's speeches. Here a little bit more objective view:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/03/sanctions-wars-and-falling-oil-prices-no-match-for-vladimir-putin/

and

https://fortune.com/2015/04/29/russia-economy-resilience/

They're Russian. Let the little people be little people

Little people do not win great wars. Little people insult other people.

Back to WWII. Anyone who read serious books on the outset of WWII knew several basic things: 1. In 30s Poland state was virulently anti-Soviet and curtly refused several proposals from Moscow to form an alliance against Hitler 2. In autumn 1938, after the Munich agreement between Germany and UK, Poland as an ally of Hitler grabbed a part of Czechoslovakia territory (Teschen, or Těšín) 3. In 1936-39 USSR was the only great power that actually fought against Hitler (proxy war in Spain). 4. In September 1939, after the Polish state was crushed by Hitler and the Polish government fled to Rumania, Soviet troops returned the territory that Poland had grabbed from Russia diring the Russian civil war.

And the last. I saw a very old (1943!), nevertheless very interesting US movie about WWII:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiW5dmXDQ5A

It seems that back in 40s Americans had much more adequate perception of USSR then now.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Poland was a country fabricated in 1918, they were part of Russia in 19th century and the troublemaker of europe in the next 20years those were ignored by historians.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

elephant@For cryin' out loud -- haven't you ever cracked open a history book? Poland saved Austria's butt from the Turks during the siege of Vienna in 1683. If it hadn't been for the Poles, Austrians might be eating doner kebab instead of croissants.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"1. In 30s Poland state was virulently anti-Soviet and curtly refused several proposals from Moscow to form an alliance against Hitler"

Yes, so Poland should love Russia for 123 years of occupation and slavery thats what you mean?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Yes, so Poland should love Russia for 123 years of occupation and slavery thats what you mean?

Well, in that case I'd like to quote another poster from this thread, @Laguna: "their astoundingly long memory, ability to carry a grudge seemingly forever, and fearful insecurity verging on paranoia is key to understanding how to deal with the contemporary country".

Wonderful illustration to your thought.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

1795-1918: Poland don't exist because of partition done by Russian Empire, Kingdom of Prussia, Austrian Empire. 1918-1939: Poland get back and is ruled by polish government 1939-1945: Poland don't exist and the lands are taken by Germans and Russia 1945-1989: Poland get back, but is ruled by Russian government 1989-...: Poland is ruled by Poland government

It's not long memory, but the fact that Russia don't gave time to forget about them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Asakaze: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/05/03/sanctions-wars-and-falling-oil-prices-no-match-for-vladimir-putin/

Awesome. Let's keep Putin in power for another 20 years. I think your economy will be incredible so please, don't change a thing.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Olegek

OK. So you want me to view Russia as a space products provider and a weapons supplier. Great. So what? It has a teeny weeny GNP and can't seem to get along with its neighbors or the rest of the world very well.

Kabuki:

I don't think there are data about this. But there are polls of Poles. And my images go back further than Solidarnosc and Lech Walesa. They called it the "Warsaw Pact" for a reason, and Poland paid a price for being under the Soviet jackboot.

Google "least liked by Poles" and knock yourself out. Seems Poles like Czechs, Germans and Slovaks most. but here is your trombone music.:

"The Russian state’s international policies drew a whopping 79 percent of negative views versus 5 percent approvals. - See more at: http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/199434,Poll-finds-Poles-like-Czechs-Slovaks-Germans-best#sthash.IQIBwMQ1.dpuf"

That was March of this year. Below is an other interpretation of those same recent data. 25% of Poles hold a favorable view, 50% are negative. Presumably the other 25% can go either way.

"Although the poll found Russia as the least liked Polish neighbor state, a quarter of Poles still hold a favorable view of Russia. Exactly 50% of the respondents hold a negative view of Russians."

But hey. Go back and look at coverage of a plane crash involving Poland and Russia about five years back. Pretty aggressive words back and forth at all levels of diplomacy and public opinion.

Look around a little. Let me know when you find that one study showing that Poles and Russians are great buds in any sense of the word.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

5SpeedRacer5 OK. So you want me to view Russia as a space products provider and a weapons supplier. Great. So what? It has a teeny weeny GNP and can't seem to get along with its neighbors or the rest of the world very well.

Please look for news from Syria - not Germany no Japan (theoretically much more developed and rich nations) are able to do such things as Russian AF(today officially they called aerospace forces). Not today not tomorrow and even a day after tomorrow it's a little bit dubious...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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