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Police allege Missouri teen robbed store before fatal shooting

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By DAVID A. LIEB and ALAN SCHER ZAGIER

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The video of Brown robbing the convenience store is here:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=464_1408123040

0 ( +3 / -3 )

This about whether he robbed a convenience store. The penalty for stealing cigars from a convenience store is not death. This case is about:

whether Wilson was legally justified in shooting Michael Brown.

whether the police blew it this past week. __

We will have wait for a while to know the answer to this.

We already know the answer. The police blew it. They came down like an occupation army. They attacked peaceful protestors. They tear gassed people who were in their own backyards. The attacked journalists. They made the situation worse. Much worse.

Where is all the right wing outrage about all this? They blabber about Tyrnanny!!!!!!!!!!! --- but not when a black community gets the boot.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Doe some people on these posts on the shooting of Brown know the truth. Please let the FBI know to speed their investigation. Otherwise NOBODY here knows what had happened.

Was he shot for stealing? Was he shot for dropping to his knees and putting his hands up? Was an altercation involved with the officer who shot him? Who knows! Let the investigation determine the FACTS. Opinions don't mean sh!t.

If this officer is judged guilty of murder already and looting is an anger vent. Get in line with that "Honorable Reverend Al Sharpton"! The majority of posts have this cop convicted. Quite closed minded when your not privy to the investigation.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Police Chief Thomas Jackson said the officer did not know the teen was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting and stopped Michael Brown and a companion “because they were walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic.”

So releasing the tape of the robbery is just character assassination of Michael Brown and has nothing at all to do with the police officer confronting him or gunning him down. And the police know that, as there was not probable cause to stop him, other than the fact that he was supposedly "blocking traffic". This is going to get worse before it gets better given the way the police are choosing to selectively release information.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Was he shot for stealing? Was he shot for dropping to his knees and putting his hands up? Was an altercation involved with the officer who shot him? Who knows! Let the investigation determine the FACTS. Opinions don't mean sh!t.

Thanks to Errol Morris's film, The Thin Blue Line and my company's thorough investigation of the evidence and review of the Trayvon Martin trial, people have very good reason to attempt to gather the facts for themselves and gain the ability to hold the justice system accountable. With the many people freed from death row by the Innocence Project, we should not put a lot of faith in the criminal justice system.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Thanks to Errol Morris's film, The Thin Blue Line and my company's thorough investigation of the evidence and review of the Trayvon Martin trial, people have very good reason to attempt to gather the facts for themselves and gain the ability to hold the justice system ACCOUNTABLE. With the many people freed from death row by the Innocence Project, we should not put a lot of faith in the criminal justice system.

We should put EVERY faith in the justice system, getting unruly, massing up crowds and enticing riots will bring nothing, but more anxiety and and more animosity, the crowds will never win against the police and the police likewise has to refrain from bringing in tanks and jumping to conclusions, but we have a justice system and the US is NOT Iraq and we have a presumption of innocence and due process and let the justice system do its job and the rest, including the President, stay out of it. Call for an investigation, but to interject himself into it, is just wrong and idiots and race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson only stir the pot more and bring more hostilities out in everyone. Sharpton needs to go back to the bowels of his network NO ONE watches and Jackson as well and leave it up to the system. Their way is too provocative.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

We should put EVERY faith in the justice system

No. Verification first, then trust. Blind faith in the justice system has taken more than one innocent life.

and let the justice system do its job and the rest, including the President, stay out of it

Uh, no. As an American citizen, I have every right to be "in it." That does not mean to interfere with an ongoing investigation, but those in the system need to know they are being monitored very closely by independent citizens.

As for "presumption of innocence," there is no dispute that Wilson shot an unarmed young man multiple times and killed him.

is just wrong and idiots and race hustlers like Sharpton

I've watched Sharpton and I've read a lot of your posts. Sharpton is much more astute than you are. Had Zimmerman killed a young white man that night, he never would have gotten off. His lies were that blatant and obvious. What's more, black people know this. As a fellow American, I am delighted to see Rev. Sharpton and Chris Hayes in Ferguson. We the citizens have a shot at getting the reporting we need on this. Well done, MS-NBC.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Sharpton accomplishes nothing other than stirring up racial divide. The man is a P.O.S.! How he is employed in the news business escapes me!

0 ( +4 / -4 )

but we have a justice system and the US is NOT Iraq and we have a presumption of innocence and due process and let the justice system do its job and the rest, including the President, stay out of it. Call for an investigation, but to interject himself into it, is just wrong and idiots and race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson only stir the pot more and bring more hostilities out in everyone. Sharpton needs to go back to the bowels of his network NO ONE watches and Jackson as well and leave it up to the system. Their way is too provocative.

bass -- lot of stuff thrown out there, so let's discect it a little. First off, that "presumption of innocence and due process" you talk about cuts both ways, but, unfortunately, the cop took Brown's rights to that away by killing him. Second, telling the President, who is responsible to "preserve, protect and defend the Constituion of the U.S" to stay out" of this, as well as calling Sharpton and Jackson, "idiots and race hustlers" is just displaying ingnorence and bigotry. Finally, saying "leave it to the system" is great in an ideal world/situation. But the chief of police in Ferguson has muddied the waters so badly on this, that "the sytem" inself has been called into question, or the Justice Department would not be investigating it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

There are photos online of the young kid being shot taken by a witness to the crime. The kid is lying dead in the road in broad daylight.

The named cop had four years experience and not six, at least according to some report. The kid had stolen a box of sweets from a store but the cop who did the shooting didn't know that. He stopped the kid for walking down the middle of the road, but it was one of those quiet side street areas.

I can't find any logic or reason why this kid was shot eight times and had to die. The cop with his family have fled their home and gone into hiding.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Way to many inconsistencies in reporting on this case to form even a remotely accurate opinion. To call the shooting unjustified at this point is irresponsible at minimum. It may have been justified, then it may have not been.

The riots, looting, and vandalism was in no way justified. ANYONE who feels it was justified needs a wake up call to honest and responsible reality. That allies to Rev. Sharpton also.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Way to many inconsistencies in reporting on this case to form even a remotely accurate opinion. To call the shooting unjustified at this point is irresponsible at minimum. It may have been justified, then it may have not been.

When does a cop need to shot a kid with his hands up even once! let alone eight times?

Photos of the dead kid in the street. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/witness-michael-brown-photo-dead_n_5683166.html

2 ( +4 / -2 )

In the case you choose not to include, an altercation is also reported and a head injury to the officer.

Stories can take opposite views when edited or embellished. THe investigation will find the truth w/o embellishing or omitting important details.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Well, I hope those $48.99 "cigarillos" were worth it.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Dumb stuff is never worth it. Was this guy a good boy gone bad or was he hiding his bully demeanor from most.

Clearly he was using his size and arrogance in the cigarillos caper and small stature shopkeeper suggests he was not the "gentle" man as many describe. Did he deserve to die? for that? No. Did he use his power on the officer? To be determined.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@yabits

No. Verification first, then trust. Blind faith in the justice system has taken more than one innocent life.

Which means, allow the justice system to run its course, then you DO agree with me, so why argue the point?

Uh, no. As an American citizen, I have every right to be "in it." That does not mean to interfere with an ongoing investigation, but those in the system need to know they are being monitored very closely by independent citizens.

So then who's going to monitor the Sharpton's and people like you and others that scream this nonsense, "NO justice, NO peace" cellar this people are not peaceful by rioting and looting, which, but the way! has nothing to do with this tragic case?!

As for "presumption of innocence," there is no dispute that Wilson shot an unarmed young man multiple times and killed him.

And we also know that there WAS a struggle in the car with the officers firearm, that has been established.

I've watched Sharpton and I've read a lot of your posts. Sharpton is much more astute than you are.

I met Sharpton 25 years ago and all I have to say about him is, he is a man that traffics and will milk and pimp ANY racially charged situation if it can further his career. Yabits, please tell me why Sharpton and Jackson are NOT protesting and calling for an end to Chicago's record murder rate, black on black crimes? Sharpton is he is the astute person you claim him to be, he should be there every weeks advocating the END to the gang violence that plagues the city, but he won't because there's no money in that. You need to have a White person to make it profitable or a law enforcement individual(s)

Had Zimmerman killed a young white man that night, he never would have gotten off.

You don't know that!

His lies were that blatant and obvious. What's more, black people know this.

Hmmmm, Zimmerman's grandmother or grandfather was African American. I seriously doubt that. There were many Blacks that said, otherwise. Also, Martin was No angle either. We also know about his troubled past.

As a fellow American, I am delighted to see Rev. Sharpton and Chris Hayes in Ferguson. We the citizens have a shot at getting the reporting we need on this. Well done, MS-NBC.

Hey, someone needs to watch that network, even if it's a few people.

Best thing is, let the justice system do what it is designed to do, get all the facts and then make a judgment, otherwise, it is pure speculation.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I thought he hit up the QT (Quick Trip -best donuts) but this is just a local shop (Ferguson Market). He is lucky he did not get shot = most of the local shops are armed while the bigs like QT are not.

=they burned down a QT just because they could. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGKGEdiZC8

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Brown's death ignited four days of clashes with furious protesters" It's thuggery on both sides. You're not doing anything to honor the legacy of this young man, you're not doing anything to help the healing and grieving of a family whose teenage son on the brink of manhood who maybe one day bring home a wife and grandkids and carry on a family line and tradition and maybe accomplish great things. All those dreams and potential unrealized. Burning down his hometown isn't going to make any of that better.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

These national race trauma's are getting tiresome. In fact I'm sick and tired of the same old story. What happened in Ferguson is a serious matter but the media's overboard coverage of certain race related incidents to the exclusion of other - shall we say less politically correct murders - distorts reality and serves only to misinform the public and create ever more racial animosity. Throw in Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson stoking the flames of racial grievance and the effort to determine the facts and determining guilt and innocence becomes a farce (see Duke Lacrosse and Martin-Zimmerman).

Like the OJ Simpson case, the public (and apparently many on this forum) have already made up their minds and the investigation has barely begun. Regardless of whether or not the actual circumstances and facts in this case call for it - there will be a trial. Eric Holder will see to that. Meanwhile in the presidents hometown of Chicago 10 other black men were killed in just the first week of this month. Unfortunately for them they were gunned down by other black men - so no one will go all out to find justice for the victims of those crimes.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Regardless of whether or not the actual circumstances and facts in this case call for it - there will be a trial. Eric Holder will see to that.

Eric Holder should be on trial himself.

The House on Thursday held Attorney General Eric Holder in criminal contempt of Congress for failing to provide documents related to a failed gun-tracking operation (Fast and Furious) . It is the first time a sitting Cabinet member has been held in contempt. The vote was 255-67, with more than 100 Democrats boycotting.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Clearly he was using his size and arrogance in the cigarillos caper and small stature shopkeeper suggests he was not the "gentle" man as many describe.

Way to convict without evidence.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Second, telling the President, who is responsible to "preserve, protect and defend the Constituion of the U.S" to stay out" of this, as well as calling Sharpton and Jackson, "idiots and race hustlers" is just displaying ingnorence and bigotry.

The acting head of the executive branch commenting on an ongoing investigation has the potential to massively bias said investigation. That fact that you have to deflect with claims of bigotry and racism only shows your own intellectual dishonesty.

So releasing the tape of the robbery is just character assassination of Michael Brown and has nothing at all to do with the police officer confronting him or gunning him down.

It shows that he was already willing and capable of committing violent criminal action. But tell me this, during the ZImmerman trial when his name was dragged through the mud, with the media bringing up decades old domestic violence allegations, did you also call that character assassination? Were you posting on online forums, calling it out as attempted character assassination? Or perhaps it's only character assassination when the person is black?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It hasn't been confirmed to be Michael Brown in the video.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

So then who's going to monitor the Sharpton's and people like you and others

As for Rev. Sharpton, ask Dan Rather. As for people "like me and others," any work we publish is subject to review and challenge. Our work does not directly impact the life of another person the way a member of the criminal justice system does.

And we also know that there WAS a struggle in the car with the officers firearm, that has been established.

There is no evidence that Brown was ever in the car. Witnesses are consistent in their claims that Officer Wilson had grabbed Brown after shouting profanities at him, and that Brown was trying to push the officer away. it was the officer who initiated the confrontation. He first drove the past the two young men, then braked and sped in reverse, almost hitting them. No. it is not established that there was a struggle IN the car.

he is a man that traffics and will milk and pimp ANY racially charged situation

As with the family of Mr. Trayvon Martin -- murdered by George Zimmerman -- the family of Michael Brown reached out and requested Reverend Sharpton to come to Ferguson to get involved. It's a free country, and I know how that raises the hackles of white supremacists.

Yabits, please tell me why Sharpton and Jackson are NOT protesting and calling for an end to Chicago's record murder rate, black on black crimes?

As Ta-Nehisi Coates beautifully points out in an update at The Atlantic, the ploy is a typical one used by white supremacists, and it's completely false. (He provides a lot of examples of black public figures who are working to end the violence in Chicago.) As for Rev. Sharpton, since you don't watch his show, you would not be aware that he has done quite a few live from Chicago on that topic. But that doesn't stop you from your own brand of race-hustling.

You don't know that!

What I know is that a white guy who strode into a Colorado theater and killed 12 people and injured nearly 60 others was portrayed in the media as a tragic brilliant student. Mr. Martin, who had never been in the kind of trouble that Zimmerman had been in (assault on an undercover police officer), was portrayed as a dangerous gangster -- walking home from the store with a drink and some candy. What I know is that the police would never have bought the story of the spot where Zimmerman claims Martin "attacked" him, had Martin been white. Cell phone records indicated that Martin was on a call with a person while he was supposedly attacking Zimmerman. Hardly the move of an attacker. Nevertheless, if Martin had been white, the girl he would have been talking with would not have presented herself the way Rachel Jeantel did -- and whites wouldn't have been able to get away with treating her as Zimmerman's defense counsel did. So, yes, I do know that. And black people understand this all too well.

Hmmmm, Zimmerman's grandmother or grandfather was African American.

Which is one key reason why he wouldn't have gotten away with it if the dead kid had been a white kid living in the complex. Unbelievably, the prosecution never brought forth a version of what actually happened that night, despite the fact that key physical evidence indicated the altercation could not have happened the way Zimmerman claimed. Had the victim been white, I seriously doubt that the prosecution would have been so remiss as to not present their own version of events.

Yes, sometimes white people are also railroaded by the system. It helps if they are poor or societal outcasts like Randall Dale Adams or the West Memphis Three.

Best thing is, let the justice system do what it is designed to do, get all the facts and then make a judgment, otherwise, it is pure speculation.

I've learned through personal experience never to put any faith in it without verification. There are incompetent and corrupt people everywhere. There is no speculation that some could not recognize a "fact" if it came up behind them and kicked them in the seat of the pants. The community, and especially the black community, has very good reason to lack trust and confidence in their local law enforcement system, and this is especially true of Ferguson's, as the numbers show.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

In the case you choose not to include, an altercation is also reported and a head injury to the officer.

All of which is conveniently reported only after extreme public outrage. Do you believe this?

Where is the incident report? Where are the autopsy results? Why wasn't an ambulance called to the scene of the shooting?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@ Zichi - It was a $48 box of Swisher Sweets cigars, and he assaulted the shopkeeper who tried to stop him. The guy was a big (as in linebacker) 16 year-old "kid" and a thug. I don't doubt he tried to struggle with the cop and take his gun. If the cop was in fear for his life, then the shooting was justified.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

sensei258

the kid was dead in the road face down and yes he stole a box of cigars but the cop who shot him didn't know that, he was shot after he surrendered and anyway why did the cop need to shot the kid 8 times?

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Did he actually surrender, or are his friends and family saying that? If he had already surrendered, why would the cop shoot him? I know the shooting was not linked to the theft, but you can see how big the "kid" was in the video.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

I think the caption should read: Police Killed Missouri Teen for Jaywalking. The fact that he took some sweet/cigars without paying, and used scare tactics on the store clerk is not relevant to the shooting. The common factor to the releases is that the police accosted the teen because he was jaywalking. I can't see how someone, short of being hit by a car, ended up dead because he was jaywalking. The penalty for violating jaywalking laws typically includes a fine similar to a parking ticket. The teen didn't appear armed, and even if he was boisterous how comes he got shot. Didn't the officer have a stun gun?That's not something to be arrested for, so he couldn't have been resisting arrest.Seemed the officer told him to get out of the road and he didn't, so the officer went berserk. Killing not justified, whichever way you take it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Strong arm robbery?

Strong arm robbery is too verbally similar to armed robbery. Sounds like a nice new term to deceive the public so that cops can get away with going lethal on unarmed suspects. Whoever it was in the video brazenly grabbed a box or two of something and pushed a clerk while making one of the slowest escapes in history.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The video is pretty incriminating (if true) that Big Mike was not exactly a gentle giant. Then there's Dorian Johnson, Big Mike's friend and a key witness to the shooting, then has not been forthcoming at all about the robbery, for which he was legally an accomplice to. This, if proven true, will damage any testimony (if admissable) Johnson may give in court.

It's a shame that this big, dumb kid did what he did in the first place. At the same time, it's also a shame that the police officer used as much force as he did, but there's certainly more to eventually come out as to what happened.

Was Big Mike really a gentle giant as his friends and relatives claim and just having a really bad day, or was he a big thug who liked to throw his weight around as the video seems to show? Character assassination? Not hardly, more like character clarification. How about the officer? Maybe he was also just having a bad day. Did Big Mike attempt to take the officer's firearm? (If the convenience store video proves to be 100% true, then stealing and the use of physical force and intimidation looked as though it was 2nd nature to Big Mike.) It's interesting to speculate about how a judge and jury will mull over and interpret the evidence available at this time.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Why is this intimidating hunk consistently described as a "kid"? Maybe legally he is, but that is certainly not my idea of a "kid". I can´t judge the legality of the shooting, but this labelling is clearly biased.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Not seeking charges against Johnson? Sounds like they cut a deal.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

To bad for him that he wasn't Cliven Bundy. He could've ripped off the government for a million bucks, stare down the Feds, and still be alive to crow about it. What could be the difference between Clive Bundy and this kid?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"the officer told him to get out of the road and he didn't, so the officer went berserk" Are you kidding? An experienced police officer with no complaints/discipline problems suddenly goes berserk and shoots somebody for walking in the street? Do you seriously believe that?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Ferguson police have already stated that officer Wilson was not aware that Brown had been a participant in the robbery. As such it won't directly help Wilson if charges are filed. However, the video does help frame why Brown may have initiated a struggle if he feared he was being picked up on robbery charges.

Witnesses are consistent in their claims that Officer Wilson had grabbed Brown after shouting profanities at him, and that Brown was trying to push the officer away. it was the officer who initiated the confrontation. He first drove the past the two young men, then braked and sped in reverse, almost hitting them. No. it is not established that there was a struggle IN the car.

Witnesses are dodgy at best. The story as it has been reported so far doesn't make much sense, especially the part about the door bouncing off the two and the officer trying to pull Brown into the car through the window. The stories of Johnson, Tiffany Mitchell, and Piaget Crenshaw differ on several key points and will require investigators to comb over and verify for consistency.

I don't know any of these people, I do not have a vested interest in the outcome of this investigation, but I do get tired of people proclaiming a preponderance or lack of evidence. We don't have any evidence one way or another and casting judgement on Brown or Wilson is pointless speculation.

Were I to make a reccomendation I would ask that the

It hasn't been confirmed to be Michael Brown in the video.

Brown's family, Johnson, and Johnson's lawyer have stated that it was Brown and Johnson in the video.

Strong arm robbery is too verbally similar to armed robbery.

How would you describe it then? Robbery is distinguished by theft as robbery requires the perpetrator to threaten or intimidate the owner or supervisor of the property being stolen. Strong-armed robbery is distinct from armed robbery and would likely have carried a lesser charge.

There are many types of robbery, like robbery by sudden snatching, aggravated robbery, and robbery by false pretenses. Depending on the country or state these can all carry different levels of fines, jail time, or punishment.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

More looting, further police intervention and chaos once more. Just like this thread the mis-information is driving this. Stick with the proven facts! Hearsay, opinions, Sharpton, and liberal media are not the sources for the real facts.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

If you are approached by a police officer (USA) you should always ask "are you arresting me or detaining me." You do not need to answer their questions and should state that. They are acting on behalf of the law and local judge and you need to let them do their job (gather evidence for judge/law). It makes no sense to attack/run or verbally assault the police when they are acting on behalf of your community. Even if you have a whole box of stolen cigarillos in your possession.

Ferguson is not that bad of an area = there are far, far worse areas in St Louis. I think you have an area that is getting worse however and that is why people are in the streets protesting for change and hopefully these people can move some of these thugs to the more burned out, and abandoned areas of St Louis.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sensei258

The guy was a big (as in linebacker) 16 year-old "kid" and a thug. I don't doubt he tried to struggle with the cop and take his gun.

Ridiculous. I love your racist code language - "thug". The facts are this kid was murdered for jaywalking. This is the crime he is known to have committed. The witnesses dispute there was a struggle, the only person saying there was a struggle was the murderer. Who you believe just because he is a white man in authority.

How convenient. And this kid - on his way to college (not exactly 'thug' behavior!) is dead thanks to attitudes like yours.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Police are a civilized authority figure. That's not to say they are above most of us in integrity and morality. We like to so. They are humans too. I have personally known police who broke more laws than most private citizens. I also know good policemen. They are human. They are not any better than the general population. Their job is to maintain law and order. And it works pretty good and certainly not perfect. I am not excusing the officer invalided in this incident or any other abusive police men or women.

Personally I have known a similar example as this one today. It was white on white though. And the police were wrong in both the shooting and the handling of the wounded belligerent young man. They cuffed him in front of his father and threw him in the back of the paddy wagon to bleed to death. It barely made the newspaper and the details of the death were not published. And no looting, riots, or chaos followed.

Blame the media for reporting to soon and inaccurate details. So far that IS what we have. Inaccurate details. And the blacks protesting, looting, and commenting on the white against black perpetuate the racial divide past, present and future.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Stick with the proven facts!

One man is white and one man is black. Sadly those are the only facts that matter in America. It is almost like a low intensity version of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Did anyone notice that authorities responded to the civil unrest in Ferguson by putting a black law enforcement officer in charge of security in the town. So is the solution to racial conflict separate but equal government services? What's next, a two state solution? It's depressing.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I dislike the way hatred is stirred up. A lot of this is media-driven, and reported irresponsibly. Remember how NBC doctored the Trayvon Martin 911 call to make it seem like Zimmerman was targeting Martin because he was black? The media loves to spin these stories into something that will incite interest and anger (and more news). They will get as much blood out of this "story" as they can.

Had Brown been a white teenager, there would have been no international news reports, no riots, no Al Sharpton, and no comments from president Obama.

The tape of the liquore store robbery (if it is confirmed that Brown was the offender) is entirely relevant, I am sorry to say. It indicates Brown had a lack of respect for the property of others, a propensity for violence, and disregard for the law. This of course will be tak into account if the officer is charged in this case. If it is true, it is not "character assassination", it is character-revealing.

As a former police officer myself (who managed not to shoot anyone during ten years working in a place which makes Ferguson, MO look like Mayberry), I find it hard to justify the way the officer reacted in this situation, unless there is more to the story that we havn't heard. We will need to hear more about the recordings of the communication, and the nature of the officer's injuries before any judgment can be considered.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Had Brown been a white teenager, there would have been no international news reports, no riots, no Al Sharpton, and no comments from president Obama.

Two possibilities for that:

Had Brown been a white teenager, he would not have been so cavalierly shot.

If Brown HAD been white and shot, the policeman responsible would be in a world of sh!t.

Again, do any conservatives care to comment on the difference between the treatment of this young man and that of Cliven Bundy?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Remember how NBC doctored the Trayvon Martin 911 call to make it seem like Zimmerman was targeting Martin because he was black?

An excellent point! The liberal media is out of control. Please remember this: Whoever controls the media, the images, controls the culture. In 1933 A politician named Adolf Hitler did it. Be cautious where your information is sourced.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Had Brown been a white teenager, he would not have been so cavalierly shot. If Brown HAD been white and shot, the policeman responsible would be in a world of sh!t.

It has happened, and more than once. And you can't say the officer this case is living in such a clean place now.

And I am not a conservative.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ya gotta love the Republica.., er, "Independent conservatives." Its about everything, anything, other than race.

While it is so obvious to everyone that is the one thing this really is about: A highly "militarized" police force pushing around Americans.

Most Americans don't like that.

Independent conservatives don't care, because they are black Americans. And in their world, that is the role of the police: to push around blacks.

Were the people white, the independent conservatives would be skreeciing about TYRANNY!!!!!!!!

And that is why I hate them.

[Note: the police are NOT Militarized. Case in point: you do not point your weapon at a target unless you are going to shoot -- these are police with military weapons. Thank you Bush for yet again skrewing our country]

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

An excellent point! The liberal media is out of control. Please remember this: Whoever controls the media, the images, controls the culture. In 1933 A politician named Adolf Hitler did it. Be cautious where your information is sourced.

MarkG -- did you really gp there? Throwing a reference to Adolf Hitler into a discussion about the occurences in Ferguson? That is simply absurd. But you do make one valid point -- "Be cautious where your information is sourced." Which is why I never watch Fox News.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

BTW

If the person in video of the armed robbery of the convenience is Brown (and I will assume it is) then that really takes a lot out wind out of the protestors sail. Taking out Brown's race -- which many, of course, cannot because they are racists and all young blacks are thugs in their minds -- the video shows that Brown did indeed act like a thug.

If you haven't seen the video, please do. It is not only the straight-arming of the clerk [bad enough]; it was the three or four steps he took towards the tiny man AFTER the straight arm. Nearly all men experienced this kind of crap in high school by the jerk football meatheads. Brown looked just like that. Now, am not defending where this kind of emotional reaction to the video leads, but here it is:

I wished death on those bullying jerks in high school.

See how this video really hurts the protestors?

Does that make him worthy of being gunned down? No. But it makes Brown totally unsympathetic. And makes people more willing to believe the bullying a-hole walking down the middle of street contributed to the fight that ended in his death. It also makes people -- and certainly racists -- more easily believe that Brown went for the cops gun, etc etc etc.

But, and this is where the racists don't get it because, well, they are racists, none of that matters. The protestors may be protesting about something they are dead wrong about, or dead right about.

It doesn't matter. They have the right to protest. They have the right to be wrong.

But not if they are black. Right, 'independent conservatives"...

0 ( +2 / -2 )

In every article I read, it seems the details of this case are different. Some similarities in many articles (like the fact Browns body was left in the street for hours, the cop yelling profanities, full-on riots and warlike response of police) don't seem right at all. I wonder if autopsy results will be released--if it turns this guy was shot in the back, there will be hell to pay.

Some have referenced the under-reporting of black on black murders, well, shootings with a cop involved make bigger news, because cops represent justice, so a failure on their part is a big deal. We would have to check the number and nature of reports of black cops shooting black suspects/victims to compare, though I can't say I've heard of a high-profile incident involving a black cop and a black victim.

We want to say we're done with racism in the US and that people shouldn't play the race card because it divides us, but I think we white folks need to LISTEN to what black folks are saying and feeling. The US is still very segregated in some places geographically and economically and there is anger and bitterness over that, sometimes an incident like this is all it takes to push folks past the tipping point, which won't help anything but increase the fears of the racist white people who generally fear/suspect black people. It's a vicious cycle.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Independent conservatives don't care, because they are black Americans. And in their world, that is the role of the police: to push around blacks. Where in the world do you imagine such false views?

Were the people white, the independent conservatives would be skreeciing about TYRANNY!!!!!!!! Last I saw white riots or looting was I don't recall. Maybe this is a factor?

And that is why I hate them. Ah, an asset to society. A real open minded citizen.

I wished death on those bullying jerks in high school. Such a tolerant fella I see. If only the world had more hate and wished more death on people. We humans could cease to exist!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@yabits

As for Rev. Sharpton, ask Dan Rather. As for people "like me and others," any work we publish is subject to review and challenge. Our work does not directly impact the life of another person the way a member of the criminal justice system does.

When I first started in Journalism, Rather was one of my heroes until I really understood that he was so far to the left, it disgusted me. NOT because he's a liberal, Peter Jennings was a liberal as well, but he wasn't overboard crazy and out there. So I wasn't interested in too much what Rather had to say, because he let his personal politics often cloud the agenda.

There is no evidence that Brown was ever in the car. Witnesses are consistent in their claims that Officer Wilson had grabbed Brown after shouting profanities at him, and that Brown was trying to push the officer away. it was the officer who initiated the confrontation. He first drove the past the two young men, then braked and sped in reverse, almost hitting them. No. it is not established that there was a struggle IN the car.

And the police were consistent in their overall assessment as well. Also, YOU don't know who was the instigator!! Don't act as if you are YOU were there, we both don't know that!

As with the family of Mr. Trayvon Martin -- murdered by George Zimmerman -- the family of Michael Brown reached out and requested Reverend Sharpton to come to Ferguson to get involved. It's a free country, and I know how that raises the hackles of white supremacists.

Yes, they have every right to do that and the public has every right to call Sharpton and Jackson out for who they really are, race hustlers! Again, when Sharpton and Jackson tackle the Black crime rate, out of control blacks having kids out of wedlock and the constant violence and mass killings in the black community, then I will will listen to them and respect them as being sincere, other than that, they are THE WORST race opportunists around!

As Ta-Nehisi Coates beautifully points out in an update at The Atlantic, the ploy is a typical one used by white supremacists, and it's completely false. (He provides a lot of examples of black public figures who are working to end the violence in Chicago.) As for Rev. Sharpton, since you don't watch his show, you would not be aware that he has done quite a few live from Chicago on that topic. But that doesn't stop you from your own brand of race-hustling.

Now it's white people's fault for the poverty and inner city living standards for blacks? With you, it's never anyone else's fault. Everyone is being held down by the system. That is a lie! Yes, I have seen some of Sharpton's so called selective works, but once or twice doesn't cut it, only consistency, which is something the guy does when he wants publicity. I don't race hustle, I'm just telling it like it is. The man is a divider, not a uniter under ANY circumstance

What I know is that a white guy who strode into a Colorado theater and killed 12 people and injured nearly 60 others was portrayed in the media as a tragic brilliant student. Mr. Martin, who had never been in the kind of trouble that Zimmerman had been in (assault on an undercover police officer), was portrayed as a dangerous gangster -- walking home from the store with a drink and some candy.

You don't know that and Zimmerman did have a big knot on his head, whatever happened, the kid should not have jumped Zimmerman trying to act all tough, sad he got shot, but play with the bull, you get the horns.

What I know is that the police would never have bought the story of the spot where Zimmerman claims Martin "attacked" him, had Martin been white. Cell phone records indicated that Martin was on a call with a person while he was supposedly attacking Zimmerman. Hardly the move of an attacker. Nevertheless, if Martin had been white, the girl he would have been talking with would not have presented herself the way Rachel Jeantel did -- and whites wouldn't have been able to get away with treating her as Zimmerman's defense counsel did. So, yes, I do know that. And black people understand this all too well.

Yabits, No, you really don't understand. Now you know how the verdict would have been, once again, you want to give a false speculation on something you have no way of proving?

Which is one key reason why he wouldn't have gotten away with it if the dead kid had been a white kid living in the complex. Unbelievably, the prosecution never brought forth a version of what actually happened that night, despite the fact that key physical evidence indicated the altercation could not have happened the way Zimmerman claimed. Had the victim been white, I seriously doubt that the prosecution would have been so remiss as to not present their own version of events.

Once again, it's never anyone's else's fault, Martin was an Angel and perfect, never made problems and never caused them, I get it, so basically, whites are the evil people, got it. That's what you are eluding to.

Yes, sometimes white people are also railroaded by the system. It helps if they are poor or societal outcasts like Randall Dale Adams or the West Memphis Three.

I've learned through personal experience never to put any faith in it without verification.

so you are saying screw the system! don't allow the system to run its course! take vigilante justice and defy the police NO matter what. gotcha!

There are incompetent and corrupt people everywhere. There is no speculation that some could not recognize a "fact" if it came up behind them and kicked them in the seat of the pants. The community, and especially the black community, has very good reason to lack trust and confidence in their local law enforcement system, and this is especially true of Ferguson's, as the numbers show.

Likewise and the police force also have good enough reason to profile and to suspect that Blacks will attack, point fingers, accuse every white of being a racist and then decide to destroy and loot their own neighborhoods, regardless of what happens, you have to follow the law and listen to the police, if you don't, you will always get the short end of the stick, always. Stop making excuses for the black community. No one told them to destroy it, that's on them, not whites.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

...regardless of what happens, you have to follow the law and listen to the police, if you don't, you will always get the short end of the stick, always.

(Always? Cliven Bundy, and the thugs who supported him.)

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Fouxdefa:

But isn´t there just as much black racism as white racism? What do you make of Al Sharpton and the Black Panthers who have already turned up at this scene? And I won´t even bring up Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. If the skin colours were reversed in their writings, would the talking heads in the media not explode?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

people have very good reason to attempt to gather the facts for themselves and gain the ability to hold the justice system accountable. With the many people freed from death row by the Innocence Project, we should not put a lot of faith in the criminal justice system.

That goes both ways. One of the reasons cops may feel a bit frustrated when dealing with some communities is the lack of help they receive when trying to solve crimes. How many people who are doing the rioting and looting are the types that will actually offer up assistance to the police and bear witness in court to crimes comitted by black on black? The "wall of blue" that people like to talk about when police protect each other is also rampant in some communities that do not trust the police.

I bet there are some who know what may have actually went down, but will not speak up. Whatever the case, if the cops over reacted sad for someone to lose their life, but in the same manner, why would you walk in the middle of a street, or possibley steal a box of cigars to make a fe "blunts" and then complain when the cops pull you over. The cop doesn't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner, but if one fights with the cops, then you get what you could expect to happen.

How many here, if they were cops and had to wrestle someone down and during that melee they grabbed your gun honestly think that the person would give it back to you following the "Queensberry" rules and give you your gun back and continue to fight fair and honest? If you answer yes, then you will not be on the force for long.

Let's let the trial begin, gather the evidence and if needed a trial be had to determing guilt or innocence. But I can tell you this, if the trial is held in Ferguson, and the cop is found not guilty and one of the complaints about the trial being that the jury was made mostly of whites, sad to say the people have only themselves to blame. The town is 65% black, but only 5% vote. Jurors are pulled from voting registrations, and they have pretty much assured that if they go to trial in this town, the lack of black participation in the voting process will come back to bite them if a trial is had.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

It doesn't get much worse than Sharpton, NO one likes him except the poor blacks that think he's doing something constructive when he is not. I wouldn't have a problem with him or Jackson if they were really sincere and address the real problems that are destroying the black community, one is that Blacks have been voting Democrat for over 50 years and what do they have to show for it? More government independence. Why are Blacks at the bottom of the economic food chain? Because the Democrats promise more and more entitlements and for many, they can't get away from it. The Democratic Party has completely ruined the Black community and the ilk of Sharpton and Jackson aren't helping anyone, just dividing the country. Farrakhan has toned it down a bit from how he used to be back in the 80's when he was off the chart. I don't have a problem with him so much as he preaches more from the pulpit compared to the other two that love to stick their noses into anything that doesn't concern them. Jackson said the other day, "there is a Michael Brown near you." What the hell does that mean??? Is that some subliminal threat? Here we go stirring the pot as only he and Al can do.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Are you kidding? An experienced police officer with no complaints/discipline problems suddenly goes berserk and shoots somebody for walking in the street? Do you seriously believe that?

Obviously you have misinterpreted what I wrote. 'Going berserk' doesn't mean the teen didn't obey so the cop immediately reacted by wildly pumping bullets into his body.

The teen did not obey the order, and this experienced police, as you put it, allowed the teen to make him lose his cool from which an altercation ensued. The teen did not obey his order to get out of the street, and this experienced cop could not de-escalate the situation, and ended up pumping no less than 8 bullets into the back, chest, and head, among other places, of an unarmed teen. Simply because he was jaywalking. The experienced cop did not know of him committing any other crime.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JTDan

It doesn't matter. They have the right to protest. They have the right to be wrong. But not if they are black. Right, 'independent conservatives".

This type of racial-political hatred is untethered to the real concerns of most Americans JT. No one of any political persuasion has any ill will towards people of any race lawfully protesting. It's the rioting, arson and other property damage that should bother partisans and independents. It's mindless and makes the whole thing even more of a tragedy than it already is.

Take a step back and try to be more objective. At least wait and become more fully informed.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Witnesses are dodgy at best.

Please speak for yourself. Your testimony about witnesses is dodgy at best. At best, good witnesses have provided the necessary details that enables something close to real justice to be achieved -- in many thousands of cases.

The story as it has been reported so far doesn't make much sense, especially the part about the door bouncing off the two and the officer trying to pull Brown into the car through the window. The stories of Johnson, Tiffany Mitchell, and Piaget Crenshaw differ on several key points and will require investigators to comb over and verify for consistency.

While there is truth to this, there are key points that they agree on. Point 1: The two young adults were doing nothing worse than walking in the middle of a street -- and not impeding any traffic at all. Point 2: It was the officer who first ordered them (by using profanity -- indicating state of mind) to get out of the road. The officer then drove on for a few seconds, then stopped, put his vehicle in reverse and drove back to confront Brown again. This proves it was not Brown who was looking for a confrontation at this moment.

The next moment that is not in dispute is the time when the officer shot Brown for the second time. Point 3: Everyone agrees that Brown was moving away from the car. The police officer's safety was in no danger whatsoever at this point.

There is no dispute as to what happened next: Point 4: Realizing he'd been hit again, Brown stopped moving away from the vehicle, turned and dropped to his knees, with hands (empty) raised in the air. The police officer continued to fire bullets into the young man.

The time between Point 2 and Point 3 can't have been more than a few seconds. Ten to 20 seconds perhaps? Brown was unarmed and all three witnesses report contact between him and the police officer. Contact, which the police officer initiated by driving back rapidly and reaching out of his car to grab Brown. No witness has Brown making any attempt to get into the car or grab the officer's weapon. The natural reaction by Brown would be to try to get away.

This appears to be an enraged cop who completely lost control. He wasn't going to let some big black dude get the better of him by continuing to walk down the road.

An experienced police officer with no complaints/discipline problems suddenly goes berserk and shoots somebody for walking in the street? Do you seriously believe that?

LOL! 4-6 years is still wet behind the ears. We don't know there were never any complaints filed against him. Still, on a bad day, many "experienced" people have been known to fly off the handle and let their anger get the better of them. This was clearly an act of rage. Once the unarmed Brown had put more than 5-6 feet from the vehicle, the officer's life was no longer threatened. After he'd been hit a second time and dropped to his knees with his hands raised, putting 4--6 more bullets in him reveals pretty much all that needs to be known. The man went berserk.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@yabits

Anyway, you are not on the case, so let the system run.It's course, I'm not going either way, because I don't know. No one, not even you.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Anyway, you are not on the case, so let the system run.It's course,

Every dutiful and conscientious citizen is a part of the system. We are all on the case. At least we have to ensure that the cases are being handled properly.

Look at the title of this thread and see evidence of just how corrupt the current system is. At the moment that Officer Wilson confronted Brown, the alleged store robbery had no role at all from the patrolman's viewpoint. Zero. (So why bring it up? Racism.)

The moments between Point 2 and Point 3 above -- perhaps 20 seconds -- are the Rorschach test on which we are allowed to paint our own interpretation. In order to justify a police officer pumping more than 4 bullets into an unarmed human being who has already gotten down on his knees in the action of surrender, the white supremacists have to try to paint in something as sinister and evil as possible. Only a white supremacist would try to paint a picture in that way.

The canvass is the street itself. Whose street was it and is it? Do white people live on that street, or is it predominantly black? Did the non-white people care if two of their young people were walking in the middle of it? What did this cop think he was protecting, who did he think he was serving, other than his own ego and sense of self-righteousness and superiority.

It is most likely in this scenario that Brown either punched or, more likely, open-handed him on his face. Which enraged the affronted officer even more. There was nothing more dangerous or nefarious at play.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@ Pandabelle - So theft and assault aren't thug behavior? "White man in authority" No code in your racist language, its out there for everybody to see. And I love how you can read my mind from the other side of the planet. With that kind of talent, you should be making more money than you do.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Amazing to read the diehard liberals on this board and what they write as opposed to the diehard conservatives.

Liberals -Guilty before the facts are even consistent. And one clown here even "HATES" non-Democrats.

Conservative -Innocent, too early to assume anything.

What are this nations courts based on? Innocent until proven guilty. Conservative-American democracy. Liberal- Communist dictatorship. I sure am glad I would be grouped into the conservative category!

I am not defending this officer, we don't know what transpired to end in a shooting. I will say Michael Brown was a big boy and if the police in Ferguson use 9mm guns it would take the right shot to stop him. As I see it now, something more than jaywalking prompted this officer into the next level. The hearsay whitenesses are not credible at this point, the irresponsible media reports any and all possible versions as we see.

Justice will prevail. If he was wrong, he will pay the price. If he was justified and over did it, he will pay a lesser price. If he shot him cause he hates black guys we will know in the future. To react and loot now only perpetuates the racial divide we have here in USA.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The Walrus: Not seeking charges against Johnson? Sounds like they cut a deal.

Read at some point that Johnson put the box of cigarillos that Brown handed him back on the counter. Didn't take it with him, and didn't rough up the storekeeper.

So far Johnson sounds not guilty of anything except stupidity, for hanging around with Brown after the store incident and for not getting out of the road, and of his account of the shooting not always matching other witnesses. But all this is coming out piecemeal so maybe in the ends the accounts will line up.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Every dutiful and conscientious citizen is a part of the system. We are all on the case. At least we have to ensure that the cases are being handled properly

@ yabits, I agree and if you have done work for such projects as the innocence project, then answer this honestly. How many cases have you seen where local eyewitness testimony was supressed, not by law enforcement, but by the people themselves who didn't want to get involved? People who knew something to the cases but for their reasons just didn't come forth. That is what the police have to face sometimes, and sadly it gets to a point where some may cut corners to get the conviction, knowing that people who may have seen the actual crime may not come forth.

A very good friend of mine is a lawyer, who was a criminal defense attorney. She has given up that practice the main reason was burnout. Tired of trying to coax the truth out of people, tired of facing family members of criminals who can see no wrong in their family members actions and tired of people who think it is fine to take from others what they think they deserve.

The kid doesn't deserve to be shot no matter what even if he did strong arm a store clerk, but at the same time, people need to be aware that police have to do their jobs.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@yabits

Every dutiful and conscientious citizen is a part of the system. We are all on the case. At least we have to ensure that the cases are being handled properly.

Give me a break, you won't be able to influence or ensure anything unless you are part of the jury that will hear the evidence brought in a court of law.

Look at the title of this thread and see evidence of just how corrupt the current system is. At the moment that Officer Wilson confronted Brown, the alleged store robbery had no role at all from the patrolman's viewpoint. Zero. (So why bring it up? Racism.)

What is it with you? It's the system, it's the White man, it's everyone else's fault! NOT Obama's, NOT the terrorists, NOT Hamas, etc, etc, it's always the poor, poor, poor minorities, they are never responsible for anything, the president just can't get a break because old white people block him and FOX news blocks him and with Brown the cops were all racist, of course, there is NO other way to explain it. You have never give criticize ANY minority for anything, EVER. You just assume, Black kid gets shot, whites did it. What if the officer were Black, when have you ever come on JT or ranted about Black on Black crimes or the problems that they make within their own communities. If you have a problem with Whites, then just say so, but please stop making the constant accusation that Whites are the reason for Black rage, that is totally and completely absurd!

Only a white supremacist would try to paint a picture in that way.

And here we go....

The canvass is the street itself. Whose street was it and is it?

The publics!

It is most likely in this scenario that Brown either punched or, more likely, open-handed him on his face. Which enraged the affronted officer even more. There was nothing more dangerous or nefarious at play.

Oh, well, that then just gives Brown every right to defy authority and do as he pleases, sad the kid got shot, but you are out of your mind if you go up against a peace officer with a GUN that has the RIGHT to take life and you go up trying to be a macho and think, I'll show this guy. "F-Da police!" You really think that you will make strides and that you will win....EVER?! No way! You will either be in jail, prison, in a hospital or in a morgue. You will NOT WIN. NO matter how you buck the system. (DMX keeps finding that out again and again and again and again and still doesn't get it). Just shut up, follow the cops orders and later, if the officer did something that completely violated your civil liberties, get a lawyer and sue the pants off the cop! Taking the vigilante approach and asking imbeciles and race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson will only exacerbate and complicate and further inflame and divide the situation.

The system will do its job, IF the officer overstepped his authority and killed Brown in cold blood, then by all means, the cop should do life! No question about it, but if the evidence shows that the officer was fighting for his life and the only alternative was to fire his weapon at Brown, then the shooting was justified and the officer should be reinstated and allowed back on his job. All this will come out in a court of law. Neither you or I can change it. Again, we have rules and laws, we don't go by Sharia laws!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@MarkG

Justice will prevail. If he was wrong, he will pay the price. If he was justified and over did it, he will pay a lesser price. If he shot him cause he hates black guys we will know in the future. To react and loot now only perpetuates the racial divide we have here in USA.

At this point it is hard to say how likely there will be justice in this case because it has become a proxy for black grievances against American society. This is no longer an incident between two individuals that ended in the death of a young man by a law enforcement officer. When cooler heads prevail a community is able to determine guilt and innocence to a degree that most will agree that justice was done. But with Jackson and Sharpton involved you move from a search for truth to the search for revenge (see Duke Lacrosse case).

@Bass

What is it with you? It's the system, it's the White man, it's everyone else's fault!

Yeah that seems to be yabits' worldview. It's always someone else - usually the Jews.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

How many cases have you seen where local eyewitness testimony was supressed, not by law enforcement, but by the people themselves who didn't want to get involved? People who knew something to the cases but for their reasons just didn't come forth.

The first one was in Seattle, February 1983. The worst mass murder in the city's history. Nobody out of the ethnic neighborhood came forth -- at first.

But that doesn't apply here at all! Three people have come forth. Let me guess: Are you implying that someone might have seen something that exculpates the officer but doesn't want to get involved, and whose testimony might conflict with three witnesses? In this case, Brown was 10 of more feet from the car, unarmed and on his knees with his hands raised. The cop kept pumping bullets into him. What exculpatory evidence could there be? Please be specific.

The kid doesn't deserve to be shot no matter what even if he did strong arm a store clerk, but at the same time, people need to be aware that police have to do their jobs.

What happened at the store has nothing to do with Browns shooting. The police admit that. Why can't you pay attention?

What is it with you? It's the system

Yes. The system. The police admit that the alleged robbery had nothing to do with the officer's confronting Brown. So why does the "system" present that as though it does? And then you go off on a loony rant citing Obama, Hamas, and whatever else crossed your feeble mind.

The publics!

The "public" who actually lives on that street -- let's call it "Canfield Street" -- has more say as to what happens on it than some potentially homicidal and racist cop sent from another part of town to order force the Canfield residents around. That's exactly what happened here. Let's assume that Canfield Street is predominantly non-white. Are you claiming that white members of the "public" who live elsewhere have more say about who walks down the middle of Canfield Street than the Canfield residents do? (To the extent that someone should get killed for it?)

Oh, well, that then just gives Brown every right to defy authority and do as he pleases, sad the kid got shot,

Sad? No. It is a complete and utter travesty that the "kid" got shot. He got shot twice as he tried to get away from the vehicle and then, as he was on his knees with his hands in the air, he was shot multiple times more. This is FAR, FAR beyond sad. it is criminal. You obviously have little regard for human life if it doesn't fall into a category you think is fully human.

If a police officer gets out of line -- let's say he grabs me without giving me any reason -- and I slap, push or smack him across the face in the process of defending myself to break free, is he justified to pull out his weapon and shoot me? Let's say that I break free and am 10 feet away from in and unarmed. Is he justified in shooting me multiple times? it's a very simple question. Does a citizen have no right to self-defense against a government official who is abusing his authority?

but if the evidence shows that the officer was fighting for his life

LOL! It's clear you know nothing about this particular case. You won't be seeing an attorney bringing a big chunk of concrete into court as was done in the Zimmerman fiasco -- another case where the "system" did not do its job in bringing justice to a black victim wrongfully killed..

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@sensei258

So theft and assault aren't thug behavior? A 70-year-old man who steals from a convenience store is a thug? Are the kids stealing from convenience stores in Japan, thugs?

@yabits

What happened at the store has nothing to do with Browns shooting. The police admit that. Why can't you pay attention? There is no dispute as to what happened next: Point 4: Realizing he'd been hit again, Brown stopped moving away from the vehicle, turned and dropped to his knees, with hands (empty) raised in the air. The police officer continued to fire bullets into the young man. Once the unarmed Brown had put more than 5-6 feet from the vehicle, the officer's life was no longer threatened. After he'd been hit a second time and dropped to his knees with his hands raised, putting 4--6 more bullets in him reveals pretty much all that needs to be known. The man went berserk.

You have hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better. You have an 'A' for your term grade. Let's pray justice will prevail.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@ bass4funkAUG. 17, 2014 - 09:03AM JST

What if the officer were Black, when have you ever come on JT or ranted about Black on Black crimes or the problems that they make within their own communities. If you have a problem with Whites, then just say so, but please stop making the constant accusation that Whites are the reason for Black rage, that is totally and completely absurd!

Blaming Blacks in some problems of society would hardly add much credibility to your statements....

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Are you claiming that white members of the "public" who live elsewhere have more say about who walks down the middle of Canfield Street than the Canfield residents do? (To the extent that someone should get killed for it?)

@ yabits: Following your logic, then those people who actually paid the taxes have more to say on what goes on in the streets than those who do not. Just becuase someone lives on a street, doesn't mean that they have the inherit right to block off traffic and do whatever they want. If I didn't live in the area, but was to drive through, I would expect the streets to be used for normaly use, not just an "anything goes" atmosphere. Keeping with your logic, I can assume that from all the reports relating to this youth, he had just finished high school, and didn't have a job, so that makes him a "non taxpayer" so wouldn't the people who pay the taxes, that go to fix the roads have more to say how they would be used, going along the lines of your argument that if you live there, you can do with it as you want.

I am ok with the people protesting, and I hope that if anything, more will want to become more civic minded, and vote more to get elected representatives who would care for their area. But the vagabonds who come in to loot and burn, serve no purpose. Ok what if the cop was wrong to shoot the kid. Does setting fire to the stores in your neighborhood, looting and rioting solve anything? How well did Watts and Newark and other areas hit by riots do afterwards? Nothing changed but only got worse.

The worst mass murder in the city's history. Nobody out of the ethnic neighborhood came forth -- at first

Let's see if this will be the same here. Will the honest protestors come forth and tell who is doing the looting and ritoing and burning of businessess in their neighborhood, or will they keep silent. If they keep silent, what's the difference between them and the police? Especially if you lost a business, and know people knew who did it but do nothing. .

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Following your logic, then those people who actually paid the taxes have more to say on what goes on in the streets than those who do not.

Why not follow the logic more? Anyone who is living on that street and paying rent or even purchasing from local businesses are contributing to the tax base. Even a kid who buys a bottle of soda or some candy. As Americans, even those you describe as "non-taxpayers" have rights.

If I didn't live in the area, but was to drive through, I would expect the streets to be used for normaly use, not just an "anything goes" atmosphere.

Communities have the right to establish their own standards and expectations. Growing up, we used to play a kind of baseball and touch football in our streets. That was the way we did it. Someone who doesn't like and is just driving through out to continue on their way and mind their own business.

And here was what you fail to mention, probably with very good reasons known only to yourself. Those tax dollars also go to pay for public servants like police officers. We have fooled ourselves when they tell us their purpose is to protect and to serve -- and then "greet" us like a heavily armed military unit. At the moment the police officer saw Brown and Johnson walking in the street, did he display any behavior that conveyed respect and concern for their safety? (Brown and Johnson lived in the neighborhood -- it was their street.) Or did he treat them with profanities and contempt, seeking a confrontation?

Here's another incident of the Ferguson police in action. They arrest a 52-year-old man falsely and beat him up, then charge him for bleeding on their uniforms. Then try to explain to me why people should not get angry over this kind of treatment.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

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At the moment the police officer saw Brown and Johnson walking in the street, did he display any behavior that conveyed respect and concern for their safety? (Brown and Johnson lived in the neighborhood -- it was their street.) Or did he treat them with profanities and contempt, seeking a confrontation?

You do know that Johnson, the person with Brown did admit that they were in the QT Stop store and did steal the cigars, and shove the store clerk. But the poice didn't at first tell this. By the way, Johnson will not be charged since it was determined that he was not the actual person who took the cigars. The family knew this and now they come up with the comments as the police trying to smear his character. Johnson's story about what happened doesn't go with the idea that is trying to be placed in the media.

Not saying he should be executed in the streets for petty crimes, but Brown's display of arrogance at just taking the cigars and fighting with the store clerk because he was bigger than he was, and then to feel entitled to just walk down the middle of the street because you can, doesn't present him in the best light and calls into question Brown's character.

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Brown's display of arrogance at just taking the cigars and fighting with the store clerk because he was bigger than he was, and then to feel entitled to just walk down the middle of the street because you can, doesn't present him in the best light and calls into question Brown's character.

What does his character have to do with his being shot and executed while unarmed? Absolutely nothing.

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What does his character have to do with his being shot and executed while unarmed? Absolutely nothing.

No it does not, he should not have been shot. But, it leads to question the motives of those who use his stooting to riot. I am for making sure that police are not corrupt, but I am not going to stand behind a cause for someone who is at least partly responsible for their demise.

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I am not going to stand behind a cause for someone who is at least partly responsible for their demise.

How is he responsible for his demise?

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You do know that Johnson, the person with Brown did admit that they were in the QT Stop store and did steal the cigars

You do know that the theft of cigars had nothing to do with why the police stopped the two young men, right? So why do you keep bringing it up as though it has any relevance?

Not saying he should be executed in the streets for petty crimes...but...

You actually feel that needs to be said? (I don't think you are able to deal with reality very well.) But what??

and then to feel entitled to just walk down the middle of the street because you can

Wow, somebody doing that must really tick you off. If there's no traffic on the street, who is he hurting, or who's rights is he violating? Sounds as though you despise someone taking a little harmless liberty in his own neighborhood.

I am for making sure that police are not corrupt, but I am not going to stand behind a cause for someone who is at least partly responsible for their demise.

You should discuss your issues with a mental health professional. A police executing an 18-year-old man in the street upon stopping him for jaywalking goes far beyond corrupt.

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Wow, somebody doing that must really tick you off. If there's no traffic on the street, who is he hurting, or who's rights is he violating? Sounds as though you despise someone taking a little harmless liberty in his own neighborhood.

Doesn't bother me one bit. If a person gets hit by a car then that's on them. As far as not getting behind the cause of "social justice" in this case, the guy as admitted by his friend in the police report, was part of a strong arm robbery of cigars. If you say it is not a big deal, then bully for you. But if you are a store owner, I would like to be able to come in your store and just take what I want and not worry about it. How long would you be in business. Oh, and the store owner is in fear for his life and had to go out and make a statement that he didn't call the police. the same store was boarded up and looted.

So no, I am not going to demand marches for this case. Did the poice have a right to gun down someone in the street? No. Did the police have the right to stop someone and ask a few questions based on a radio call, I can live with that. But if things got out of hand, the cop may have acted out of line. Did the two act suspicous and cause the cop to get nervous, we will not know until a full report and trial (if needed) is had.

But to just try to go off and say that I need some mental help is not answering the questions, and adds nothing to this case. When the facts come out, I imagine that the looters will look more bad.

And as a Black man, I can say this, don't go for a cops gun period. That is good advice rather you are black or white.

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Doesn't bother me one bit.

Right. That's why you brought it up.

As far as not getting behind the cause of "social justice" in this case, the guy as admitted

You only think of it in terms of "the guy." But that's you. He probably walked down the rather quiet street dozens of times. And here on this Saturday in broad daylight, members of the community (and possibly kids) had to witness a public execution -- which is what it was. Fifty dollars of cigars are worth more to you than human life, and the well-being of a community.

Nobody with any self-respect would want someone with your mindset behind their cause.

I can say this, don't go for a cops gun period.

There is no evidence that he went for the cop's gun. He certainly wasn't going for the cop's gun when he was executed from a distance of about 10 feet with his hands raised in the air. So if a cop wants to feel justified in killing someone like that, all they have to claim is they thought the other guy was trying to get his gun.

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Welcome to America: The Police State where you might get shot to death over stealing a measly box of cigars...lolol

The police officer didn't know about the box of cigars when he shot Brown.

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Even if Brown indeed tried to go for the gun, what? Is this Police officer so weak he couldn't pistol whip him on the forehead or similar?

Police training does not train to pistol whip, it trains to shoot. As it should. And if a suspect is reaching for the gun, then the police officer has the right to shoot him. The question in this case is whether the officer had the right to shoot him six times or not. Hopefully an objective investigation will occur on the matter, though only time will tell.

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I have a feeling that as soon as the police release a report, a mysterious video of the whole account will appear.

The autopsy showed there was no sign of a struggle. So why stick with that theory? Because the officer said so?

The witnesses' accounts are true. The officer grabbed the youth from within the car. The teen pulled away and ran (he knew he had stolen something and thought the officer knew).

He ran away while verbally back lashing at the police's verbal abuse. The police was infuriated, He got out of the vehicle and pursued the teen telling him to freeze. The teen kept running. The police pulled out his gun and began firing.

The teen kept running, when suddenly a bullet hit the inside of his right arm (because of his arm movement when running). He then realized in a flash that the police was dead serious. He then turned around in complete surrender, but the police continued shooting hitting him three more times, one going through the right palm.

The teen then dropped to his knees arms still up and head bent in full submission, totally harmless. The officer in his blind rage kept shooting and so fired that fatal shot, piercing the apex of the teen's skull. The teen drew his last breath and slumped forward on his face in the street, to be no more. Another life senselessly snuffed out.

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It bothers me though, that Americans are so brainwashed into thinking anything gives them the right to shoot dead an unarmed person.

We keep hearing, "let the system sort things out." One of the most pernicious evils of white supremacy in America is that it never "checks" on the system to make sure justice was done. It just assumes the system is perfect. All the while hundreds of examples are given of where the system has failed. White supremacists are simply not interested in truth or justice -- as it would completely shatter their construct of the world.

@Shanique Smith: Yours is the most plausible description of what actually happened. Like the Trayvon Martin case, the perpetrators viewed young black males as objects of crime, fear and loathing. Neither attempted to initiate contact with any amount basic courtesy, decency or respect. This is what pains me to the depths of my soul. Such an utter and senseless waste. Such little regard for human life from a person who is supposed to protect and serve the public.

But, MOST damning of all, is how we witness the white supremacist system circling the wagons to protect the killer. The witness reports all provide ample evidence of probable cause of serious misconduct. But since these witnesses are not of the right color, the killer is free and still collecting money on administrative leave. Why not take him into custody on probable cause? An unarmed man was killed -- executed -- on his own street in broad daylight, and witnesses say he was in the act of surrendering, after running away (not attacking).

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@yabits

Like the Trayvon Martin case, the perpetrators viewed young black males as objects of crime, fear and loathing. Neither attempted to initiate contact with any amount basic courtesy, decency or respect.

We don't know that yet. We do know that the "young black male" certainly didn't treat the store owner with respect a few moments earlier.

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@therougou

We do know that the "young black male" certainly didn't treat the store owner with respect a few moments earlier.

When you say "a few moments earlier," you are correct. Do you have any information that shows where the store owner reported the act of disrespect, or an alleged theft? All I've been able to glean indicates that neither the owner nor employees reported anything. So how is it that we have allegations of an APB issued for stolen cigars, "moments later." This was a high-priority case? (I wish the police would have handled my stolen car with the same sense of urgency.)

With the ludicrousness of the notion that the cop was reacting to an APB for shoplifted cigars in moments put aside, let's get down to the issue of respect.

Are you expecting 18-year old kids to be the models of respect? Or would that responsibility fall more heavily on the adults in our communities -- especially those who represent authority? Why would we tolerate a police officer treating members of the public with gross disrespect? Do you have an answer for that?

Then consider this: How much time in our nation has been devoted to this issue? If some simple, basic, decent respect by the person in authority could have prevented all of this, can you sense the supreme stupidity of not grasping this lesson?

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@yabits

Are you expecting 18-year old kids to be the models of respect?

An 18-year old is old enough to know what he is doing when he intimidates, abuses and robs a store-owner. And on the other side of things, if you watch the video you'll see he is big enough that almost nobody would know he was a teen.

We don't know what pushed the cop over the top, and there is probably no scenario where he should have gunned him down like that, but I'm not going to sit here and glorify the "kid", either. The altercation with the store-owner shows he is someone that plays with fire, and when you play with fire eventually you are going to get burned.

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An 18-year old is old enough to know what he is doing when he intimidates, abuses and robs a store-owner. And on the other side of things, if you watch the video you'll see he is big enough that almost nobody would know he was a teen.

Exactly, for some reason, many people, including Yabits want to excuse the fact that Brown really as a young kid who didn't do anything wrong. He clearly pushed the officer back in his car that is what was said from eyewitness accounts, there was an altercation in the car and a struggle for the gun. After Brown exited the police car, he stood in front of Wilson, Wilson thinking that maybe he might not survive another attack by Brown because Wilson is a small guy compared to Brown, thinking his life might be in serious jeopardy and he shoots his firearm, NOW I am NOT saying that is WHAT happened, I am NOT Yabits or some of the other people here on JT and will convict the officer unless all the facts are in nor am I taking sides. He may well be guilty, I don't know and NONE of us know. But injecting race into this is appalling and demeaning.

We just don't know and I find it insulting and demeaning to the police officers that many in the public label them all as a monolithic group that is just radical on the destruction of Black people. How absurd! Yes, you do have some out of control officers that shouldn't be on the force and abuse their power, you can say that about any person in the public arena, but we are still a country that allow do process and the presumption of innocence.

We don't know what pushed the cop over the top, and there is probably no scenario where he should have gunned him down like that, but I'm not going to sit here and glorify the "kid", either. The altercation with the store-owner shows he is someone that plays with fire, and when you play with fire eventually you are going to get burned.

I couldn't agree with you more. The most important thing is to get all the facts and people ranting and raving and trying to make Brown a Saint which he is NOT and should never impede the investigation. Whatever people might think is irrelevant and the truth will come out, regardless of what the public or Al Sharpton want or the outcome THEY WISH it to be.

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@therougou

An 18-year old is old enough to know what he is doing when he intimidates, abuses and robs a store-owner

Sorry, this does not exonerate or excuse a police officer for not treating a citizen with basic decency and respect. Secondly, I need to hear from the store owner. I do not know for a fact that he was robbed. What is his side of the story? You seem not to care about that at all, which says a lot.

And on the other side of things, if you watch the video you'll see he is big enough that almost nobody would know he was a teen.

So maybe it's not Brown. Teens can't be big?

and there is probably no scenario where he should have gunned him down like that,

that would mean it's a crime and he has to pay. Period.

but I'm not going to sit here and glorify the "kid", either.

I don't know what you mean by "glorify." He was an 18-year-old kid. A big kid. When I was 18, I was 6' 5" and around 200. That didn't mean my mind was more mature than the average 18-year old. I really wasn't even aware of how my size intimidated other people. Most young people are not that self-aware. Is that a crime? Or is it another factor that we'd expect a law officer carrying a gun to understand?

there was an altercation in the car and a struggle for the gun

No proof of that whatsoever. We know there was not a struggle for the gun when Brown was 25 feet away from the officer.

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Sorry, this does not exonerate or excuse a police officer for not treating a citizen with basic decency and respect. Secondly, I need to hear from the store owner. I do not know for a fact that he was robbed. What is his side of the story? You seem not to care about that at all, which says a lot.

You don't need to hear from the stor owner. The video shows you that he had zero disregard form, since he walked out with the cigars or do you think the store owner was just playing with him in the store and he told him, it's cool,take as many as you need and I'll eat the cost.

Keep diggin Yabits.

So maybe it's not Brown. Teens can't be big?

Of course they can and they can be belligerent like Brown was. Abusing and taking advantage of his size to muscle the store owner and from the looks of it, officer Wilson.

that would mean it's a crime and he has to pay. Period

Brown did pay, the ultimate price, period.

I don't know what you mean by "glorify." He was an 18-year-old kid. A big kid. When I was 18, I was 6' 5" and around 200. That didn't mean my mind was more mature than the average 18-year old. I really wasn't even aware of how my size intimidated other people. Most young people are not that self-aware. Is that a crime? Or is it another factor that we'd expect a law officer carrying a gun to understand?

You're making excuses. It's not working.

No proof of that whatsoever. We know there was not a struggle for the gun when Brown was 25 feet away from the officer.

And there is no proof that officer Wislon gunned him down in cold blood.

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You don't need to hear from the stor owner.

Yes, I do.

or do you think the store owner was just playing with him in the store and he told him

I don't know. I have to hear the store owner's version of what happened.

Brown did pay, the ultimate price, period.

And the cop is a murderer, period.

And there is no proof that officer Wislon gunned him down in cold blood.

Eyewitnesses say he was. I believe them; not liars and fools.

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Yes, I do.

Your opinion will not influence the outcome of the case, therefore, how you or anyone else feels is irrelevant.

I don't know. I have to hear the store owner's version of what happened.

He might or might not give a public statement. If he doesn't, our lives won't end, but to the investigation, it would be important.

And the cop is a murderer, period.

That may be, but having a brother that's a cop and to hear some very scary stories of cops being attacked and shot all the time, they do have to be careful. If I were a cop and a guy as big as Brown tried to attack me, I have a family and kids and I would make sure, I wouldn't be a victim, if my life is in danger, I would empty my clip for sure if the assailant failed to comply and put his hands on me, physically assaulted me and injured me. Because if you try to take my gun, pummel me, get up and think you can leave after I have given you an order to put your hands up and you decide now you will hurt me some more, I'm unloading. So if you want to call him a murderer for wanting to possibly save his life, then so be it, I would call Brown a petty criminal with a thug mentality, period.

Eyewitnesses say he was. I believe them; not liars and fools.

That goes both ways about Brown. I believe those eyewitnesses as well.

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He might or might not give a public statement. If he doesn't

If he doesn't, anything you say about that video in his store is pure conjecture.

but having a brother that's a cop and to hear some very scary stories of cops being attacked and shot all the time

Meaningless. Brown was not armed and over 20 feet away from the officer. It was the officer who pursued him, according to eyewitnesses.

and a guy as big as Brown tried to attack me

Conjecture. If your initial contact with Brown has you grabbing him by the neck and he hauls off and slaps or hits you, you have it coming.

Because if you try to take my gun, pummel me, get up and think you can leave after I have given you an order to put your hands up and you decide now you will hurt me some more

More fabrication and fantasy backed up by no evidence. No eyewitness supports that scenario. Why are you making it up?

I believe those eyewitnesses as well.

Your "eyewitnesses" have failed to materialize. They are a figment of your imagination. Otherwise, name one. The cop murdered the young man. He'll be indicted and the testimony of two intelligent and articulate women (among the other eyewitnesses) will seal his fate. Those women are Tiffany Mitchell and Piaget Crenshaw. They are real people, unlike your imaginary witnesses.

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If he doesn't, anything you say about that video in his store is pure conjecture.

On your part, perhaps. So now we're in the business of manipulating videos? As they say, "Who are you going to believe me or your lying eyes."

Meaningless. Brown was not armed and over 20 feet away from the officer. It was the officer who pursued him, according to eyewitnesses.

He didn't need to be armed, the guy was built like the Hulk! Again, you don't know that, you are speculating.

Conjecture. If your initial contact with Brown has you grabbing him by the neck and he hauls off and slaps or hits you, you have it coming.

And likewise, probably Brown it coming.

More fabrication and fantasy backed up by no evidence. No eyewitness supports that scenario. Why are you making it up?

Yeah, there were, but you know the old saying, you have 6 people seeing the same thing and they all will see different things, it's always like that, this is why they need to investigate and use the most reliable source and that has to be determined.

Your "eyewitnesses" have failed to materialize.

What are you talking about? They are NOT MINE. Listen to yourself, you are completely personalizing this story. Relax, dude.

They are a figment of your imagination.

That's your opinion.

Otherwise, name one. The cop murdered the young man. He'll be indicted and the testimony of two intelligent and articulate women (among the other eyewitnesses) will seal his fate. Those women are Tiffany Mitchell and Piaget Crenshaw. They are real people, unlike your imaginary witnesses.

It doesn't matter who or what was said, or who said it, we are not on the case, you are bit too obsessed with this Yabits, it's tragic for both sides, but you are so bent on seeing justice and you don't know, you can't do anything and you just can only throw out speculations and hunches. We are both NOT in Ferguson and we don't know what's going on and in many aspects,we never will on either side.

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So now we're in the business of manipulating videos?

Did Brown put any money on the counter? Yes or no, and how can you tell? I won't make any conclusion about a silent video unless someone who was there provides some explanation. I certainly won't accept the interpretation of those I have determined to be dishonest fools.

Again, you don't know that, you are speculating.

It is not speculating to recount what the eyewitnesses have already said. Or, maybe to you it is.

What are you talking about? They are NOT MINE

Cite the name of one independent eyewitness who has Brown charging at the police officer. If you can't name one, they are part of your imagination.

but you are so bent on seeing justice

Yes, because I know that achieving justice is so rare when there are so many perverted and debased minds who care nothing for the truth and will dehumanize a victim in order to justify his killing. Example: How you invented that Zimmerman identified himself to Martin and asked to see his ID. That was done to put Zimmerman in the best possible light and Martin in the worst. You are doing the same in this case.

throw out speculations and hunches

No.Unlike you, I can fairly represent the evidence of a case. I'm not going to claim the officer has a broken eye socket when moments after the shooting he's on video pacing back and forth around the body with no visible sign of injury. I won't admit to the possibility that Brown charged the officer when several eyewitnesses are adamant that didn't happen, and not one single independent eyewitness has been identified who claims Brown charged or rushed.

The wheels of justice in this case could only start to move after people took to the streets. There was enough probable cause to convene a grand jury immediately and file charges against the officer. Killing someone after verbally abusing them for jaywalking, and then physically abusing them.

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Did Brown put any MONEY on the counter? Yes or no, and how can you tell?

I don't know Yabits, usually, I guess when you pay for an item, it's not common for a store staff to block my way after I pay. I have been going to liquor stores all my life, I never had ANY stop me from walking out after paying.

Keep digging.

I won't make any conclusion about a silent video unless someone who was there provides some explanation. I certainly won't accept the interpretation of those I have determined to be dishonest fools.

That's you. ROFL Time to buy a new shovel.

It is not speculating to recount what the eyewitnesses have already said. Or, maybe to you it is.

So now, you have the right to call out what is credible and what is not? OMG, Yabits...

Cite the name of one independent eyewitness who has Brown charging at the police officer. If you can't name one, they are part of your imagination.

Yabits, no one cares what any of us think, will it impact the investigation or is it more to satisfy your personal ego? It only matters to the Grand Jury, Holder and the prosecutor and that's it. If you were there and a key witness, you would be called in, but you weren't. Your opinion, our opinion and the worlds opinion doesn't matter to the investigation.

Yes, because I know that achieving justice is so rare when there are so many perverted and debased minds who care nothing for the truth and will dehumanize a victim in order to justify his killing. Example: How you invented that Zimmerman identified himself to Martin and asked to see his ID. That was done to put Zimmerman in the best possible light and Martin in the worst. You are doing the same in this case.

I'm not going to talk about Zimmerman, I already told you what I thought, back to Brown! I think that Brown himself dehumanized his personal image by thug gin' and acting like a fool and thinking he doesn't have to obey anyone and take whatever he wants. Doesn't make him look good. I feel bad for his parents. The only thing they can do is let the system ride itself out.

No.Unlike you, I can fairly represent the evidence of a case.

Yabits, you are too funny, honestly. You know as much as I do and everyone else on JT and that is nothing, we weren't there. You and I know from reading and watching the media and that's it. If you were there and saw what happened, I would shut my mouth, but as such, you were NOT. So you cannot represent anything pertaining to this issue.

I'm not going to claim the officer has a broken eye socket when moments after the shooting he's on video pacing back and forth around the body with no visible sign of injury. I won't admit to the possibility that Brown charged the officer when several eyewitnesses are adamant that didn't happen, and not one single independent eyewitness has been identified who claims Brown charged or rushed.

But you sure want to condemn the officer, you want him arrested, you don't want a fair trial for him. Now you are confusing me or is it "selective claiming?"

The wheels of justice in this case could only start to move after people took to the streets. There was enough probable cause to convene a grand jury immediately and file charges against the officer. Killing someone after verbally abusing them for jaywalking, and then physically abusing them.

That would have happened without the hoodlums from different cities taking to the streets rioting and looting and thug gin' to make a point. Now, I hope these same so called wannabe activists will March and do the exact same thing in Chicago and Philly and other major cities where the Black on Black crime is out of control. But that probably won't happen, because it would be impossible to blame a White person for the carnage.

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He'll be indicted and the testimony of two intelligent and articulate women (among the other eyewitnesses) will seal his fate.

Seemed like at least one of these articulate women couldn't properly speak in the past tense in her recording ("they kill him"). And they are not very intelligent for going to the media to tell their story. Even if they are right, this will give the opposing attorney time to find inconsistencies. We already have the friend who claimed that Brown was a "gentle man" despite the fact that he had just pushed around a store-owner. He also said the cop tried to open his door and it just "bounced off" Brown and closed again. These people are not doing any good for Brown's case by blabbering to the press.

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Even if they are right, this will give the opposing attorney time to find inconsistencies.

It won't matter. Thanks to the Jim Crow-based Missouri laws, it will be nearly impossible for a law officer in the state to be found guilty of murdering a citizen -- no matter how egregiously wrong the act was. In most states, upon finding that the officer, in fact, shot the person, the burden of proof would then be on the officer to prove the killing was justified.

Missouri doesn't work like that. The burden is on the prosecutor to prove that the officer was not acting out of self-defense. A nearly impossible legal standard to surmount. The victim could have given the officer a dirty look and all the officer has to claim is that he feared for his safety before blowing the person away. People here are painting him as dangerous merely for his sheer size.

This will be a federal civil rights case -- and anyone who desires real justice (and not Jim Crow Missouri-style) -- will have a better chance to achieve it there.

We already have the friend who claimed that Brown was a "gentle man" despite the fact that he had just pushed around a store-owner

The store owner had purposely tried to get in Brown's way. I have watched the video. I see a man who could have put a very serious hurt on the store owner, had he chosen to. He basically moved the owner out of his way. He could have just as easily pushed the owner through the window, or in such a way as would knock over the display stand. When the owner made another offensive move, Brown merely looked him down. I see nothing inconsistent with how a gentle giant from a tougher neighborhood would handle himself. In no way was he out to hurt the person; he easily could have if he wanted to.

If someone tried get in his way or abuse him, Brown would respond. That's all the video can reasonably prove to me. (In other words, if the store owner had not tried to block his way, would Brown have touched him? The video indicates the answer is "no" when Brown just looked at the owner, when the owner came back to him but didn't try to block his access.)

Seemed like at least one of these articulate women couldn't properly speak in the past tense

Ah, so that's how you judge people.

And they are not very intelligent for going to the media to tell their story.

Since reading about the farce called Missouri law, I think their going to the community and the media with their story was extremely smart. Very smart indeed.

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People here are painting him as dangerous merely for his sheer size.

If he used his sheer size to push people around and (possibly) try to take a cop's gun, then he is dangerous.

When the owner made another offensive move, Brown merely looked him down. I see nothing inconsistent with how a gentle giant from a tougher neighborhood would handle himself. In no way was he out to hurt the person; he easily could have if he wanted to. If someone tried get in his way or abuse him, Brown would respond. That's all the video can reasonably prove to me.

This is quite laughable. A big guy robs a store, pushed the owner out of the way because he made an "offensive move" (by standing in front of the door without touching the big guy), but the big guy is a "gentle giant" because he merely robbed, intimidated, and shoved the owner, rather than putting him 6-feet under? I'd hate to live in a land of gentle giants, if that is the case.

Ah, so that's how you judge people.

Its called pointing out the irony of your comment.

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Its called pointing out the irony of your comment.

I heard them both tonight. As good as their diction was, their ability to recount events is even better. Tiffany Mitchell is excellent.

(by standing in front of the door without touching the big guy)

Incorrect. The video clearly shows him putting out his left forearm to block Brown. Brown basically brushes him aside.

rather than putting him 6-feet under?

6 feet under? This is quite laughable. He easily could have left a mark or two on the much smaller man. You know he could have. But he didn't. He had no intent whatsoever to physically hurt the man.

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Brown basically brushes him aside.

Translation: shoves him into a shelf so he can get away with his stolen goods.

He easily could have left a mark or two on the much smaller man. You know he could have. But he didn't. He had no intent whatsoever to physically hurt the man.

Because he knew he didn't have to. The man was about half his size. How does that prove he is gentle? If you are gentle, you don't go around robbing a store in broad daylight and then shoving the owner away when he tells you to pay up. The fact that Brown even thought he would get away with that shows he has horrible decision-making skills, which he displayed again in his altercation with the cop.

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I can't understand why some people are still arguing about the store and the alleged robbery. The robbery and video are completely unconnected to what happened on the street. It does not matter. The only question is was the pollce officer justified in shooting the unarmed Brown six times resulting in death.

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The robbery and video are completely unconnected to what happened on the street

Not necessarily. The report by the officer's friend said that he was notified of the "strong-arm" robbery during his altercation with Brown. If this is true it could have changed the way events played out. Also, the robbery paints a picture of Brown's character that will likely play a part in the trial. Finally, this is an article about the robbery so what else are we supposed to talk about?

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Translation: shoves him into a shelf so he can get away with his stolen goods.

Anyone can view the video and determine you were wrong when you claimed the store owner never touched Brown. He clearly tried to block Brown from leaving with his left forearm. Brown was carrying the allegedly stolen product in his right hand, and pushed the man away with his left hand.

It does not look like a shelf, but one of those wire display racks that hold snack foods like potato chips, etc.. To determine how hard he was pushed, how many items of product where knocked off the rack onto the floor? There are none, which means he wasn't pushed hard at all. The rack barely moves. If Brown wanted to, he could have pushed him so hard that the entire rack would have toppled over. Brown was not intending to physically harm the man.

In fact, the store owner barely loses his balance. What little he does is compensated by the rack he has bumped into. He's immediately back on the advance and trying to take the cigars out of Brown's right hand, which is when Brown turns and glares at him. Definitely a capital crime, right?

Also, the robbery paints a picture of Brown's character that will likely play a part in the trial.

The video is also a rorschach of how people want to interpret Brown's character. Yes, he most likely stole the cigars and was walking out the door, with the owner trying to physically block him. But to claim the owner never touched Brown shows bias. To claim he shoved him hard when absolutely nothing falls off the display rack shows bias. In other words, some want to use that altercation to turn Brown into a monster worthy of execution.

I view human life as having tremendous, almost infinite worth. Many feel Brown's life wasn't worth $50. There was a lot more to his life and his character than what is on that video, one can be sure. He didn't have any brushes with the law that we have heard. What the police officer did showed extreme disregard for human life, starting from his initial contact in which he cursed at the two young men. (I've seen witness reports of him acting abusively on other occasions to members of the community. Perhaps their complaints were ignored and not recorded. But people remember Wilson.) When all is said and done, it is the officer's obviously callous disregard for human life that has devalued his life.

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@the rougou

Also, the robbery paints a picture of Brown's character that will likely play a part in the trial. Finally, this is an article about the robbery so what else are we supposed to talk about?

The Ferguson police are no angels.

The incident on September 20, 2009, where they arrested the wrong man, is a glaring example. The innocent man was taken from his vehicle without any explanation, booked and placed in a cell. For no apparent reason he was mercilessly beaten.When the officers satisfied their thirst for blood, they then went to more closely check the identity of the man. Then lo, and behold! "We have a problem here." Yes, they had the wrong man.

Instead of making it right with the man, out of utter contempt, they charged him for getting blood on their uniform. The innocent man wasn't bleeding when they accosted him, yet they sought to file claims for property damage, because they beat the man so severely they had blood all over their uniforms.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

These are mostly the same police officers, with whom Wilson now works. They are prone to using excessive force.

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Simply put it this way! The police are out of control! In Fullerton California the police beat the life out of a WHITE homeless man begging for his life and screaming for his father. An all white jury acquitted the policeman one policeman had one eye and told the poor guy I'm going to beat the hell out of you. The poor guy died simply put it if you are poor black, Hispanic, or white the police see you as nothing and they shoot with your hands up and have been Known to plant guns when their was never one! They are a fraternity and they will protect their association they create the crime scene block it off and plant evidence and even take Rolex watches off the dead. Sorry to say there are some good cops but in situation where a person is shot more than once and through the eye and the top of the head I call that over kill!

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You were not there and you do not know the extent to why the officer would have to fire six rounds, maybe the way Brown charged at him, the first rounds didn't stop him. Dr Baden, the shots that DID kill him were to the head. In that case, if someone were to try and hurt me, take my weapon that big, I'd unload my clip into the individual until I was sure the threat is eliminated.

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@Shanique

The Ferguson police are no angels.

I'm not saying they are angels. If there are past incidents regarding police officers directly involved in the Brown case, I'm sure it will be brought up. Everything should and will be fair game.

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maybe the way Brown charged at him

Is that a fact with video evidence, or your speculation?

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You were not there and you do not know the extent to why the officer would have to fire six rounds, maybe the way Brown charged at him, the first rounds didn't stop him. Dr Baden, the shots that DID kill him were to the head. In that case, if someone were to try and hurt me, take my weapon that big, I'd unload my clip into the individual until I was sure the threat is eliminated.

Let assume Micheal Brown was not a human being, but a rhino. (Which, frankly, is what a lot of these descriptions that have him charging remind me of.) Or maybe he was a "rabid dog." It's easy to convince one's self that when either is just wounded, they still remain a threat. But Brown did something a rhino or rabid dog would not likely do: He ran away. He tried to put distance between himself and the officer. This would tend to argue in his favor that he was a human being.

With the pursuing officer shooting at him, and with one of those bullets possibly grazing at him, Brown would have to make a lightning fast decision to try to save his life. If he's a human hit by a bullet, the odds are he's going to give up from being fired at from 20 feet away. He has the intelligence to know that a charge from that distance is not likely to be successful. He also knows that even if it is somehow successful, his life would be toast as every cop in the county would be out for him.

Perhaps Wilson had him mistaken for an animal that would charge at him, while the eyewitnesses saw a human being trying to surrender.

Again, I go back to the initial encounter, when Wilson treated the two young men like animals -- with no sign of courtesy or respect whatsoever. It would have cost Wilson nothing to do so. A sign of visible respect might have even surprised the two, and made them more willing to comply. Isn't that what we're trying to achieve?

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@yabits

Let assume Micheal Brown was not a human being, but a rhino. (Which, frankly, is what a lot of these descriptions that have him charging remind me of.) Or maybe he was a "rabid dog." It's easy to convince one's self that when either is just wounded, they still remain a threat.

Yabits, Brown was not a rhino, stop with the hypotheticals, already, more and more stories are coming out that it might and could be a possible justified shooting, AGAIN, possible, but I'm not saying either way, but from the looks of it....

But Brown did something a rhino or rabid dog would not likely do: He ran away.

Sorry, that's a lie. No autopsy has shown that. Dr. Baden said, the other day on FOX that his wounds were all in the front entering the body, all of them, so please, just stop there!!

He tried to put distance between himself and the officer. This would tend to argue in his favor that he was a human being.

Again, that part we don't know, even Baden said, it's a gray area.

With the pursuing officer shooting at him, and with one of those bullets possibly grazing at him, Brown would have to make a lightning fast decision to try to save his life.

When Brown charged the officer, the officer had less than 2 second to fire his weapon for fear that he probably would not survive another beating by this thug.

If he's a human hit by a bullet, the odds are he's going to give up from being fired at from 20 feet away.

It was already established that he was high and he had drugs in his system. So again, we don't know what his state of mind was.

He has the intelligence to know that a charge from that distance is not likely to be successful. He also knows that even if it is somehow successful, his life would be toast as every cop in the county would be out for him.

You mean, the same intelligent man that stole a box of cigars, pushed a store clerk and taunted and from the looks of it attacked a peace officer? Wow, if you call that intelligence, I would hate to see what an ignorant Brown would've been like.

Perhaps Wilson had him mistaken for an animal that would charge at him, while the eyewitnesses saw a human being trying to surrender.

Or Brown was so high, he mistook Wilson for a woman and thinking his gun was a handbag and tried to commit a robbery and thinking there is money in it and decided to pummel him.

Again, I go back to the initial encounter, when Wilson treated the two young men like animals -- with no sign of courtesy or respect whatsoever. It would have cost Wilson nothing to do so. A sign of visible respect might have even surprised the two, and made them more willing to comply. Isn't that what we're trying to achieve?

And I go by Brown be thuggin' his way into the store big, over confident, defiant, thinking, ain't NO ONE gonna tell me S*! I do what I damn well please! Brown showed disrespect, disregard, defiance, bad attitude and took it upon himself to take whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted. That's a fact and no because of HIS so called high intelligence, he's laying on a slab in some cold refrigerator and because of what? Because HE thought**, he was a badass!

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Sorry, that's a lie. No autopsy has shown that. Dr. Baden said, the other day on FOX that his wounds were all in the front entering the body, all of them, so please, just stop there!!

A lie? All witnesses, including Wilson (through the police dept.) have an altercation taking place at the vehicle. Later, Brown was killed 25 feet or more away from the vehicle. How would you explain that distance if Brown had not tried to run away? And you're wrong about Dr. Baden: He said that one of the wounds to the forearm could well have come from behind Brown.

When Brown charged the officer, the officer had less than 2 second to fire his weapon for fear that he probably would not survive another beating by this thug.

A statement that is not backed up by any independent witness. It comes out of your imagination.

It was already established that he was high

High? What was the level of drugs found in his system? Or are you making things up again?

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More BS, Yabits!

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front. The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body. However, that determination could change if it turns out that there is gunshot residue on Mr. Brown’s clothing, to which Dr. Baden did not have access. . . . Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds. “This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

“We need more information; for example, the police should be examining the automobile to see if there is gunshot residue in the police car,” he said. . . . . One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone. The last two shots in the head would have stopped him in his tracks and were likely the last fired. . . . . Mr. Johnson said that he hid behind a parked car and that Mr. Brown was struck by a bullet in his back as he ran away, an account that Dr. Baden’s autopsy appears to contradict. . . . Read More

“People have been asking: How many times was he shot? This information could have been released on Day 1,” Dr. Baden said in an interview after performing the autopsy. “They don’t do that, even as feelings built up among the citizenry that there was a cover-up. We are hoping to alleviate that.”

Dr. Baden said that while Mr. Brown was shot at least six times, only three bullets were recovered from his body. But he has not yet seen the X-rays showing where the bullets were found, which would clarify the autopsy results. Nor has he had access to witness and police statements.

Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

Yabits, put I to rest until the final results came out, you could be right or I could be right, but we both don't know what happened, becuae the Feds would never tell you what they have in their arsenal. These are the words coming out of dr. Braden's mouth.

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