Police replaced in riot-hit Missouri city as Obama urges calm

Even if the shooting was unjustified, does that make looting okay? "They shot Michael Brown. Guess I'll grab me a new flat screen TV"

Even if the shooting was unjustified, does that make looting okay?

Of course not, but they are two separate issues.

Tell that to the looters. They are not two separate issues when they use the shooting as justification.

The county police response to daily, and nightly, protests since the shooting has been aggressive, with rifle-toting police in military-style fatigues and body armor deployed to crush dissent.

To crush dissent? Gee, I guess it couldn't have anything to do with preventing the rioting, looting, and arson we saw a couple days ago. I guess it's racist to prevent crime and felonies now, at least according to the AFP.

I think white people should riot when a black kills a white. Seems to be a double standard.

These arguments are silly! Was it racially motivated? Maybe yes, maybe no. Was the shooting justified? Maybe yes, maybe no. Until the investigation discovers the truth it was justified with the information provided thus far. A struggle for the officers gun. Holder will not rest until the truth be told.

Tell that to the looters. They are not two separate issues when they use the shooting as justification.

So you are saying that the riots are justified by the shooting? If you are not saying that, then we are back to my original statement - they are separate issues.

"So you are saying that the riots are justified by the shooting" No, I didn't. Once again you are putting words in my mouth so you can comment on them. And how did you make that logic jump anyway? So we are back to my original statement that looters are justifying their crime.

No one is trying to justify the looting, but almost anything is understandable from such a population so degraded. Look here at examples of headlines which glorify white murderers and denigrate black victims:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html

Or here for a black guy arrested because a white guy near him was making a ruckus:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/08/12/westlake-mall-cop-ignores-agitator-maces-african-american-bystander-at-israel-protest

And that's just this morning. Again, no one is trying to justify looting; still, general rioting seems entirely justified.

.....So they think anyway. This has happened before and if you go to conservative media they will report a half dozen similar incidents with the difference being a different race.

This guy was shot. Fact. Was it justified? To be determined. Meanwhile a bunch of scumbags are terrorizing a community in the name of justice. Funny how they define justice.

I say skip the MO State Police and send in the MO National Guard under an African-American CO.

Laguna et al.

The looting is a red herring.

The police are shooting on peaceful demonstrators and roughing up journalists.

We've been through this before. I'm with Rep. John Lewis. Send in the National Guard.

The police's job is to uphold the law. Unlawful, violent gatherings need to be disbanded. What is difficult about this? It is to prevent further injuries, death, vandalism..... Journalists often place themselves in the wrong place. The honorable Reverend All Sharpton is a perfect example.

"So you are saying that the riots are justified by the shooting" No, I didn't. Once again you are putting words in my mouth so you can comment on them.

No I'm not, I asked a question, I didn't tell you what you were saying.

The fact of the matter is that no matter whether or not the shooting was justified, it doesn't justify the looting. Neither does the looting justify the shooting. Therefore they are separate issues that need to be evaluated on their own merits.

The police set up machine guns, on tripods, and aimed them at unarmed American civilians, using their legal right to peacefully protest the police shooting of an unarmed young man from their community. The police are more the problem, rather than the solution. They are not trained in how to treat civilians with dignity.

Land of the Free indeed. Policing in the US is about as heavy handed as it gets in the democratic world.

appointing a local African-American officer, Captain Ron Johnson, to take charge, instead of the St Louis County police who had led the crackdown.

An interesting fact is that the town is about 65% Black, yet the number of registered voters is (Black) in the last few elections was about 5%. When you have a population that is that disinterested in their local governance, you will get elected officals who don't look like the majority.

I can get their frustrtions to a point, but not to the point where they think it is ok to loot and burn, especially when some of those businesses are Black owned. If they think the police have a history of corruption in the city (70 person police force, only about 5 Black officers), then they need to start taking part in local elections, and becoming involved with the system to effect change. You can't complain about a system, when you don't participate in it.

I wonder, how much does the community that is up in arms assist the police when there is Black on Black crime and the police try to find the offender? Then you get the "wall of silence" not from the police but from the community. I see it in my community back in the states. The police shoot someone, tensions get high. But the local bad guys od the shooting, and no one talks yet they know who did it, and a few days later another person (normally someone who had something to do with the first shooting) winds up being shot or killed.

To stop the cycle, the people need to start being part of the process.

AlphaapeAug. 15, 2014 - 10:21AM JST

If they think the police have a history of corruption in the city (70 person police force, only about 5 Black officers), then they need to start taking part in local elections, and becoming involved with the system to effect change. You can't complain about a system, when you don't participate in it.

Amen to your post. The reverse is true. Local politicians are leaving the community alone like a vacuum since there are no voters. The local police is usually useless for petty crimes. They just do not care.

I actually took a wrong turn and ended up in Ferguson on the way to Florissant MO and Alton IL. I remember there was a tension between us for no reason.

The reverse is true. Local politicians are leaving the community alone like a vacuum since there are no voters. The local police is usually useless for petty crimes. They just do not care.

I saw a picture of some of the looters, and one clearly showed a guy in a store and you could see the gun (9 mm type) in his pants as he was looting. That's what needs to be addressed. Not an NRA gun issue, but an issue on what we are willing to accept in our communities.

I am Black, and if I had to live in MO, I would take as much care as to not want to live in the area. Not that I think I am better but I want to be around people who will be involved in their community and particiapte. Listening to a radio host talk about this place, only one person on the city council is Black. To correct my previous post, only 3 out of 60 police officers are Black. Yet, they want to complain about police and jobs and opportunities, and they don't even take the time to go register to vote. The numbers of people there on some type of government assistance is high, yet they will not go and register to vote.

Land of the Free indeed. Policing in the US is about as heavy handed as it gets in the democratic world.

Another aspect that has drawn a lot of conservaties to actually rally with the looters in a way (politics makes strange bed fellows) is the fact that the various police units have shown up with armored vehicles, and military gear. Sort of reminds one of South Africa in the 80's with the anti-apartheid riots. They are up in arms (no pun intended) on who a local government agency can come in and be just as well outfitted as the military. I am sure that they are not for the looting and lawlessness, but they do bring up a valid point, what are the police going to do with all that tactical gear?

Pretty ashamed to be an American when I look at the images coming out of Ferguson. Militarized police looking like Navy SEAL teams. Miserably neglected neighborhoods full of decaying buildings, graffiti, cracked roads and sidewalks, and people who look like they're from a third-world nation. The inherent racism and humiliation and misery that comes from living in a society that, as a policy, just doesn't care about its poorest citizens.

I don't blame them for rioting. They live in a hell hole and most have no hope of ever getting out.

Education and hard work gets you out of a hell hole. Wearing your pants below your underwear elastic band will keep you there among other things.

I will agree the police are overly armed. Its not just them. Game wardens and DHS are just two which don't need the arms they issue.

Pretty ashamed to be an American when I look at the images coming out of Ferguson. Militarized police looking like Navy SEAL teams. Miserably neglected neighborhoods full of decaying buildings, graffiti, cracked roads and sidewalks, and people who look like they're from a third-world nation.

In 20 years from now, the whole of the States will look like this after policing is outsourced to reduce 'big' government ...

The inherent racism and humiliation and misery that comes from living in a society that, as a policy, just doesn't care about its poorest citizens.

Not true. See my above posts, the people here don't vote. Politicans pander. They pander to whatever group will keep them in office. Right now, they tend to think that the wave of the future will be the Hispanics and thus the large influx across the boarder. Funny thing, they want this group into the country to change the US voting patterns. But here, no one is pandering to the Black vote, since here they don't vote. They just will sit by and wait for their handout.

That's all true.

But the Black voter turnout in Ferguson is, in part, low due to the fact that those people have, in all likelihood, been gerrymandered into virtual non-citizenship and have been abused and neglected by both the state and the federal government for decades.

Yeah, you need to pull up your pants and you need to vote. No argument from me there. But the problems in communities like Ferguson run deeper than just the private responsibility to stay politically involved.

@Alphaape

An interesting fact is that the town is about 65% Black, yet the number of registered voters is (Black) in the last few elections was about 5%. When you have a population that is that disinterested in their local governance, you will get elected officals who don't look like the majority.

In most state and local elections, only a tiny fraction of eligible voters of any race vote.

To simply say that African Americans don’t vote because of apathy and indifference ducks the problem.

In the mid 1960s, a majority of eligible voters did vote. Two things changed that. One is the dominance of corporate and labor Political Action Committees in bankrolling politicians. Soaring election costs have turned races into a millionaire’s derby.

The second thing that changed things is the subtle and at times overt suppression of minority voters. This includes stringent driver’s license or other ID checks, rigid timelines for filing voter applications, the lack of information or misinformation about voter registration forms and materials, and non-existent or feeble voter registration campaigns.

Not to mention, the United States war on drugs has been conducted predominantly in communities of color. Thus, minor offenses like a joint can get someone convicted making them ineligible to vote.

A.) Once convicted, black offenders receive longer sentences compared to white offenders. The U.S. Sentencing Commission stated that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10 percent longer than white offenders for the same crimes. The Sentencing Project reports that African Americans are 21 percent more likely to receive mandatory-minimum sentences than white defendants and are 20 percent more like to be sentenced to prison.

B.) Voter laws that prohibit people with felony convictions to vote disproportionately impact men of color. An estimated 5.3 million Americans are denied the right to vote based on a past felony conviction. Felony disenfranchisement is exaggerated by racial disparities in the criminal-justice system, ultimately denying 13 percent of African American men the right to vote. Felony-disenfranchisement policies have led to 11 states denying the right to vote to more than 10 percent of their African American population.

This includes stringent driver’s license or other ID checks, rigid timelines for filing voter applications, the lack of information or misinformation about voter registration forms and materials, and non-existent or feeble voter registration campaigns.

Not going to buy that excuse. One of the first places destroyed was a "QT mart" that was looted and destroyed. Some say it was because the store called for the police because the person killed and friend had stolen something. I'll wait to see about that part, but I can say without a doubt, the highest selling items in a store of this type were booze and cigarettes. Both require a valid ID to purchase. Also, the store (as like most in these areas) accepts the EBT (welfare) card for payment on food items. Again, to get this card, one needs to take the time to go and register and apply. They just don't give one to you for nothing. So saying that Blacks don't know how or can't make the time to register to vote is more discriminatory than anything else I have seen.

Felony-disenfranchisement policies have led to 11 states denying the right to vote to more than 10 percent of their African American population.

But stil there are more whites in prison than Blacks, so that would mean that more whites are being disenfranhised than blacks. I know plenty of blacks, no criminal record, who simply do not vote for their own reasons. Yet they are the first ones to demand something from the government.

Seems like the colour divide in the US will never die.

@Alphaape

I can say without a doubt, the highest selling items in a store of this type were booze and cigarettes. Both require a valid ID to purchase.

That's a pretty weak argument. Requiring to see ID for the purchase of booze and cigarettes is strictly at the discretion of cashier. As long as you look old enough and no one is the wiser, they can sell to anyone. If these items are the highest selling items it is probably directly related to the lacks enforcement of the ID laws.

The same can be said about Japan.

So saying that Blacks don't know how or can't make the time to register to vote is more discriminatory than anything else I have seen.

Yet, you assuming this neighborhood is all about booze, cigarettes and welfare isn't discriminatory!?

From your previous posts on JT, I got the impression you are in the military. The US government is more understanding about the people exercising their right to vote and. Low-income employees don't have that luxury or convenience to vote. The options like early or weekend voting that has been used historically to allow mostly minority, elderly, and low-income people to vote has been attacked by mostly conservative Whites to suppress the vote. Thus, keep certain groups of people in positions of power.

But stil there are more whites in prison than Blacks, so that would mean that more whites are being disenfranhised than than Blacks

Obviously, Whites still make up the largest population in the US, but convictions lean disproportionately more towards minorities and specifically Blacks for the reasons I stated in the previous post. My information comes from actual research not simply anecdotal evidence.

And we (Japan) are suppose to be defended by a country that has this kind of problems?, the United Statetians and their general (the masses) morality/ethics are not assuring.

Yet another reason why... each country needs to be able to defend totally and not relying to any other country.

@Igor

That is the "we are superior, you lower kinds must obey us" logic of the US and Europe.

I get the thug zero tolerance mentality, but when the state resorts to shooting its unarmed citizens with no accountablity, something is bad wrong.

From your previous posts on JT, I got the impression you are in the military. The US government is more understanding about the people exercising their right to vote and. Low-income employees don't have that luxury or convenience to vote.

@ Silvafan: Yes I was in the military and still in Japan working. Funny thing, I just mailed my absentee ballot for a local school board election. If people want to vote, there is a way to do so. You are correct, the US government bends over backwards to get people to vote, and there are many organizations that will help people to get registered, yet they don't want to do it. People can absentee and many places have early voting. Just as simple as going to the county regisra's office to get it done. As a matter of fact, I got my ballot online and I am half a world away from my hometown, and yet I can still find the time to vote.

I think it is more condescending to say that lower income people can't manage their time to get the important things in life done unless someone "helps" them out.

I bring up the comment on booze and smokes because it takes an ID to get them,and I understand people don't check ID all the time. But it also takes an ID to get an EBT card or any of the social welfare programs that people need, and yet they can find time to get them. If people can't, then those so called "community organizers" ahve failed since I can think of many ways that people can get the proper ID and documents necessary to register to vote.

One of my relatives is a leading activist. I have personally seen her photos with some of the biggest names in US politics and see her mentioned in the papers where I am from often. She will admit to you, that it is frustrating at times trying to get people to do something simple as to register or go vote. People expect a quick "hand out" without any effort. And she's a die hard liberal Dem.

Go to a place like Ferguson, and you will see a different world from what some facts may state, and what actually is going on.

The police set up machine guns, on tripods, and aimed them at unarmed American civilians, using their legal right to peacefully protest the police shooting of an unarmed young man from their community. The police are more the problem, rather than the solution. They are not trained in how to treat civilians with dignity.

Has even a single civilian been injured in these Ferguson demonstrations ? The police are actually the ones getting shot at there every night, not to mention firebombed and bricked. And spin off protests are spreading across the country, hell even Times Square in New York was shut down last night as thousands flowed into the streets to demand an end to police brutality. So there may be a show of excessive force against peaceful 'day of rage' protests but I don't see anyone's rights been infringed, on the contrary the events in Missouri seem to have sparked vigils in all major cities to 'commemorate' the victims of police violence in Ferguson.

There is an ongoing problem in the U.S. and its African American (black) communities. There still is high unemployment and imprisonment. That being said, the "hard" thug image doesnt help things. I have experienced discrimination, so I do "get it" You want to lash out, but I dont get the need to loot. We saw it after Rodney King, and Hurricane Katrina. New Orleans finest, the honoralbe Mayor Nagin, was unable to handle the crisis, blamed it on the feds while many in New Orleans were raping and looting, even shooting help when it arrived in helicopters. Nagin is now in prison. Its a very tough problem for me to process. There is real discrimination towards many in the black community, no denying that, and to understand discrimination you must first experience it.

Then there is the issue of the State. A representative of the State murdered an unarmed citizen. This is also hard for me to process. The U.S. has to deal with these problems in a progressive manner.

I think white people should riot when a black kills a white. Seems to be a double standard.

what about the lesser publicized black on asian-american crimes? asian-americans are known to be easy-pickings by black thugs b/c the large majority are law-abiding, hard-working, timid.

Sen McCaskill calls on Ferguson police to "demilitarize" operations. "Response by police has become the problem instead of the solution."

Bingo.

Democrats, as usual, get it. Republicans, as always, don't.

Oh, can you imagine how all Republ...er Independent conservatives here would be screeching about tyranny and gnashing their teeth about Hitler Obama if Brown had been a white 19-year old....?

Niether can I.

I hate them.

Again, no one is trying to justify looting; still, general rioting seems entirely justified....

Rioting justified? Sorry, no. Peace protests. Boycotts. Anything MLK would have endorsed. But riots? No justification possible.

10,000 Yen says that if the teen that was shot had blond hair and blue eyes nobody would give a damn.

As for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, when are these living fossils going to die?

10,000 Yen says that if the teen that was shot had blond hair and blue eyes nobody would give a damn.

OK, jeff198527: Here's your chance: Cite an example of a white teen (hair color not relevant) who had been shot in this manner and nobody gave a damn.

Waiting.....

Surveillance video now released shows the 6'4'' 292 lbs. Michael Brown committing a strong arm robbery of a convenience store, roughing up the store owner, shortly before the confrontation with the police officer. His friend's account, which help fueled the violent protests, is now established to have been a lie.

This case is not about whether Michael Brown was One Of The Good Ones. It's not even about whether he robbed a convenience store.

The penalty for stealing cigars from a convenience store is not death.

This case is about whether Wilson was legally justified in shooting Michael Brown.

Has anyone suggested that the penalty for stealing cigars from a convenience store is death? Please, give up using the straw man arguments!

Why, yes. They have.

If fact, you have.

No death penalty for stealing cigars, or even strong arm robbery of cigars with battery, the actual allegation here, a good deal more serious than just stealing.

But consequences of refusal to obey lawful order of office, followed by battery on police officer, followed by evading arrest, can include death.

People get shot to death in US by cops for waving pagers, toy guns, screwdrivers, vegetable peelers, drills, etc., at said cops, and cops walk in these cases (walk = no charge and no penalty). (Google, for example, 'suicide-by-cop screwdriver')

The cop didn't know Brown was a robbery suspect, according to police. But Brown did know, if he in fact committed the robbery, and video and witness accounts (including the friend he was walking with at the shooting site) indicate he did commit it. So Brown had reason to get aggressive with the cop, who (according to police) was only trying to detain Brown and his friend for walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic. Cop wound up with a head injury and hospital visit, according to police. This probably going to jury trial so outcome is a big To-Be-Determined. Was cop justified in following through with multiple shots after the head injury?

As for the riots, only his family has a good excuse for that. Others including activists are opportunists or fools.

But consequences of refusal to obey lawful order of office, followed by battery on police officer, followed by evading arrest, can include death....Was cop justified in following through with multiple shots after the head injury?

Every second of the clock on this incident is critical. As soon as the suspect was on his knees and had both hands -- clearly empty, up in the air -- any bullet put into him past that moment is felony murder. Period. End of story.

So Brown had reason to get aggressive with the cop,

Conjecture.

Cop wound up with a head injury and hospital visit, according to police.

A head injury from what? His own car door slamming back on him when he opened it too fast?

JTDanMan.....your logic eludes the facts. I will assure you and everyone on these posts it was much more than stealing. Wear your blinders, do the ostrich, take your meeds. You DON"T know the truth. I don't either. We rely on current FACTS at the moment.

yabits

End of story.

We'll see what comes out of proceedings. Throwing hands up in the air doesn't automatically get him a pass, it's not a video game where things happen instantaneously. Especially when cop's been banged on the head.

Conjecture.

Do you mean that Brown wasn't involved in the robbery? There's video on the web (which you may not have seen), and witnesses to the robbery, including the guy walking with Brown when he was shot, said guy was also with Brown during the robbery just prior to shooting.

Or that Brown didn't have a reason to be aggressive in escaping the shooting officer, due to robbery he (Brown) may have just committed?

A head injury from what? His own car door slamming back on him when he opened it too fast?

Ha ha, that's funny, NOT, but is anyone claiming that? Witnesses sympathetic to Brown are saying he wrestled with the cop through the window.

There's lots of cops who should've been imprisoned and/or executed for killing black, white, and other people unjustly. This cop, maybe not. Brown shouldn't have wrestled with the cop.

Do you mean that Brown wasn't involved in the robbery?

Since the police officer's only directive to the two young men was to get out of the middle of the road, it is pure conjecture to take the position that any reaction by either of them was because they were suspected of the robbery.

Ha ha, that's funny, NOT, but is anyone claiming that? Witnesses sympathetic to Brown are saying he wrestled with the cop through the window.

We don't know who initiated the contact. The witnesses say the police officer drove up and grabbed Brown. There are many ways for an officer to injure his head on the door or roof of his vehicle in the process of an altercation that the officer initiated.

So Brown had reason to get aggressive with the cop, who (according to police) was only trying to detain Brown and his friend for walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic. Cop wound up with a head injury and hospital visit, according to police.

Where did you read that? I have never heard of someone being detained for walking in the street. The officer should not have even been within five feet of the teen under these circumstances. Give him a warning/fine etc. but no need for detention. Which Black youth in their right senses would confront an armed White officer in a lonely street?

Also, why should the officer be believed and not the witness? Is it White lies over Black lies? Nobody seems to be disputing what the officer said, but they are trying to discredit what the witness said.

Anyway, the lootings put a damper on everything for me.

Bows out.