Pope's preacher: Accusations akin to anti-Semitism

sorry "to even attempt somthing as abhorent as covering up for paedophilia."

Lars,

"Abusers are abusers. Hiders of abusers are hiders of abusers. They each deserve to be reckognized for their individual sins"

Hiding someone for example for drink-driving offenses that have caused injury to no one for example can be understood. When the crime hurts people and you're hiding them, there are risks and you aren't being fair and unless they're friends or family or they're threatening you to do so, in my opinion your abetting their crimes.

When the crimes have to do with sexually abusing children, you must surely be complicit in their crimes to even attempt somthing as abhorent as paedophilia.

I didn't duck your question as I didn't particlarly see it as one. The facts remain that there been an inordinate number of child sex abuse cases and subsequent cover-ups from the Catholic Church.

I'm still at a loss as to how you find the Church to be "singled out".

As I pointed out in a comment to another article concerning this subject, most research shows that the percentage of abuse by priest in the RC church is at about the same rate as leaders (ministers, Rabbis, etc..)as most other denominations and religions.

The main difference is that most every other group or religion are less centralized and in some cases even more closed to the outside world.

The less centralized ones tend to make much less of a headline world wide and the others due to there often closed communities are often handled "internally".

This in no way make any cover up by the RC church any more acceptable but it does show that more attention may also be needed to protect the abused in the other groups.

Too much attention focused on just the RC takes our focus off the rest and that would be just as bad.

Madverts, you ducked my question. The time frame was 50 years. 4392 priests, so yes, thousands of cases. The number of priests who served in that time frame was 109,694, over 100 thousand. That means 4 percent of priests had a substantiated claim of sexual abuse against them, which is half of the rest of the adult male population. HALF.

but there has also been a history of systematic Denial and cover-up which is disgraceful and fairly opens up all sorts of questions about what we don't know and what else they're hiding in the Vatican.

That is it, right there. That is the valid point that I won't argue with and the guilty church leaders deserve derision for that. The trouble is, that is not what this stereotyping and collective blame assertion is all about, is it? Priests are not even being stereotyped as sex abuser hiders. They are being stereotyped as the sex abusers themselves and getting collective blame as if all or nearly all were sex abusers. 96 percent do not seem to be sex abusers. And those 96 percent have a legitimate gripe, even the ones who hid abusers. Abusers are abusers. Hiders of abusers are hiders of abusers. They each deserve to be reckognized for their individual sins, not the church itself and not innocent priests who are more innocent than the general population.

Even doubts and further suspicions I admit are warranted. But seeing all priests as sex abusers is wrong, irrational and unfair.

lars,

I think the crusade is your own, but I appreciate your concern for my anuerism.

The Catholic Church has a history of systematic sexual abuse of children, thousands of cases. That, is bad enough in itself, but there has also been a history of systematic Denial and cover-up which is disgraceful and fairly opens up all sorts of questions about what we don't know and what else they're hiding in the Vatican.

Your suggestions of school abuse are almost valid, but I bet 99% of the offenders apprehended were shoved into the spotlight by their colleagues and superiors.

And that is why the Chruch is being "singled out".

tigris: We are not talking about a sports club, but about predators who abuse their victims when and where they are most vulnerable.

Maybe you should look into sex abuse and scandals at schools, orphanages, and day care centers too? That is all I was saying. Its not just the Catholic church, not by a long shot.

Moderator: Stay on topic please.

I'm a total atheist but I'm a fair one. I've seen the speach on TV, and what most people don't now is that the preacher didn't express his own opinion. He simply read an excerpt of a letter from a jewish friend of his who made the controversial comparison. I don't get why such a fuss is made when the comparision was made by a jewish person in the first place. Search for the video of the whole speach and you'll understand better.

Lars, when you catch a headline like

Pope's preacher: Accusations akin to anti-Semitism

Naturally it'll spark controversy, no matter how distorted the whole thing is. The comments you're reading now are a good example of how people swiftly 'react' without validating the story.

The new link for the article is:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/what_fr._cantalamessa_really_said

Its a fact that the church is being singled out, not a defense.

Really?

The report, which found "endemic" sexual and physical abuse over decades, has caused widespread shock in mainly Catholic Ireland. [.....] They were required to pay €128 million ($228m), but a redress scheme has already paid out almost €1 billion ($1.78bn) in compensation and legal fees to about 12,500 of more than 14,500 victims.

That's only for Irland. http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/irish-abuse-victims-slam-catholic-church-reaction/story-e6frfku0-1225717673090

Internationally, an endless list: http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/ethics/minilist.htm

Also, the church is not any organisation, but (still) a pillar of society supposedly guiding their flock in ethics and morals. Comparison with other organisations is therefore not a legitimate argument. We are not talking about a sports club, but about predators who abuse their victims when and where they are most vulnerable.

What a moron.

Let us see the collapse of this monolithic control system and a move towards supporting... humanism. No need for the supernatural in 21st Century lives. Taking this organization to task, akin to anti-semitism? Hardly.

This popes preacher is an idiot, pure and simple. What a stupid thing to say.

So, apparently, 98 percent of priests do not. Yet, the comments and news articles seem to say "pedophile priest" a whole lot.

This suggests a singling out.

"available research suggests that approximately 2 to 5% of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is lower than the general adult male population that is best estimated to be closer to 8%".

I wonder why one gets the impression that Catholic priests are all a bunch of pedophiles. Is the MSM following an agenda?

jruaustralia, let me extend to you a HUMONGOUS thank you! Unfortunately your link did now turn up the exact speech but I have confirmed that it was NOT the Reverend who made the anti-semitism comparison it was his JEWISH FRIEND!

Remember this because this is EXACTLY how the press lies to us time after time. The headline is a lie. The article is a lie. But don't expect any retractions. Don't expect any apologies. Don't expect any responsibility whatsoever!

Madverts said: I don't care what they would say in their "defense", and I certainly wouldn't defend one. They're sick individuals that need locking up for ever,

Well, you should. Some married their "victims". Some "victims" would sooner see you in jail. Opening your ears is an important way of figuring out what is going on, whether its guilty or not guilty, or whether abuse has actually occurred. Believe me, I have the same feelings about actual abusers as you do, but abuse is abuse, and you cannot determine abuse by using a calculator or by stuffing your fingers in your ears.

This is just surreal... The Vatican is handling this so badly that it's almost as if they are trying to bring down the church from the inside.

Madverts: And yhou have a problem with the Catholic Church being "singled out"?

Is this some sort of crusade for you dude? Yeah, I have a problem with the church being singled out. Now read the next line carefully. It might prevent your having an aneurism: It is appropriate the the church is named and chastised. Do you know the difference?

Now, you said 4392 cases in America alone. Now, can you tell me the time frame for that? And you are also aware that each priest tends to have multiple allegations? That is why, from your own link:

"available research suggests that approximately 2 to 5% of priests have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is lower than the general adult male population that is best estimated to be closer to 8%".[10]

You asked for another org to share blame? Okay, here. Schools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

In US schools, according to the US Department of Education[145], "nearly 9.6% of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career."

What was actually said:

By a rare coincidence, this year our Easter falls on the same week of the Jewish Passover which is the ancestor and matrix within which it was formed. This pushes us to direct a thought to our Jewish brothers. They know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence and also because of this they are quick to recognize the recurring symptoms. I received in this week the letter of a Jewish friend and, with his permission, I share here a part of it.

He said: “I am following with indignation the violent and concentric attacks against the Church, the Pope and all the faithful by the whole world. The use of stereotypes, the passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism. Therefore I desire to express to you personally, to the Pope and to the whole Church my solidarity as Jew of dialogue and of all those that in the Jewish world (and there are many) share these sentiments of brotherhood. Our Passover and yours are undoubtedly different, but we both live with Messianic hope that surely will reunite us in the love of our common Father. I wish you and all Catholics a Good Easter.”

Link http://www.ncregister.com/blog/what_fr._cantalamessa_really_said/

I do apologize lars. It's not hundreds.

It's THOUSANDS.

In 2002, the John Jay report tabulated a total of 4392 priests and deacons in the U.S. against whom allegations of sexual abuse were considered by their diocese to have been "substantiated".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

4392 priests and deacons.

4392 in the US alone.

4392 that actually got caught.

And yhou have a problem with the Catholic Church being "singled out"?

Good grief.

"So, apparently, 98 percent of priests do not. Yet, the comments and news articles seem to say "pedophile priest" a whole lot. This suggests a singling out."

2% is an appaling figure if you count the amount of priests in service. And that's only the priests that got nabbed.

It is not singling out as you suggest, it is fact that a shocking amount of Catholic Priests have sexually abused children in their charge. This is fact and this is why journalists writing the worlds "Paedophile Priest" is not only justifiable, it's a forgone conclusion to have the word "Another" written just prior to those two words.

Perhaps you could point out another organization, religious or otherwise, that have a proven track record of their members systematicaly sexually abusing children? Get back to me on that one Lars, go on - feel free to single them out for me!

"What a smacked up the head unfounded statement. As if anyone else apprehended by police spills the truth instantly anyway!"

You've clearly never seen an American cop show. Jest aside, that is exactly what apprehended paedophiles do, blame their vile actions on someone else to become the victim...

....which in turn is exactly what the first poster here suggested, that the vatican is now painting itself the victim and strangely using the Holocaust Trump Card so often used by the pro-Israeli crowd, usually when their actions are indefensible.

"I would have imagined that most pedophiles would state that they didn't hurt anyone"

I don't care what they would say in their "defense", and I certainly wouldn't defend one. They're sick individuals that need locking up for ever, as opposed to the criminal activity from the Vatican which has been DENIAL and COVER-UP from the highest levels for many years.

Clearly you're drunk on overt political correctness. Goofd luck with that. I can't abide people that defend child sex offenders, certainly not from religious freaks that have been doing it for years in yes, hundreds of cases.

This guy takes the 'anti-Semitism' argument to new extremes, and makes it all the more see through. Bizarre comparison.

Lostinnagoya I heard that, too. Certainly looks like it. As regards this "popes preacher" and his ridiculous pontificating, sorry, but its lost on me. It was another blatant attempt at the highest level of the RC Church to cover up the sins of its pervert priests. The scandal wont go away, and rightly so. It is sheer nonsense to compare the criticism of the RC Church with what happened to the Jewish people. One of the biggest load of cobblers I have heard in a long time.

Madverts said: "Singled out" isn't a fair statement. On what poor research exists, 2% of priests engage in kiddy-fiddling.

So, apparently, 98 percent of priests do not. Yet, the comments and news articles seem to say "pedophile priest" a whole lot. This suggests a singling out.

It mst be in the hundreds of cases......

Off the top of your head? Thanks for proving my point!

When a paedophile has been aprehended they always whine to the police that it's somehow someone elese's fault they've been doing hideous things to children. Although paedophiles are known to be similar to serial killers in the fact that they're absolute liars that would say anything to save their vile hides.

What a smacked up the head unfounded statement. As if anyone else apprehended by police spills the truth instantly anyway! I would have imagined that most pedophiles would state that they didn't hurt anyone, but I am not about to state that like its a fact or use a word like "always". Are you trying to discredit yourself here?

"Its a fact that the church is being singled out, not a defense."

"Singled out" isn't a fair statement. On what poor research exists, 2% of priests engage in kiddy-fiddling.

If they're feeling the heat it has nothing to do with being "singled out". It's the fact that there are so many incidents now. It mst be in the hundreds of cases......

...that we know of.

"Isn't it interesting how the aggressor finally appears as the victim?"

An excellent point, Len.

When a paedophile has been aprehended they always whine to the police that it's somehow someone elese's fault they've been doing hideous things to children. Although paedophiles are known to be similar to serial killers in the fact that they're absolute liars that would say anything to save their vile hides.

Another priest here in Rouen, France was nabbed yeasterday as more tales of abuse emerge. My thoughts right now are with all the still hidden cases of child sex abuse in the Catholic Church, how soon they'll be coming to light thanks to the recent revelations and how much the perpetrators will be sweating about being shoved into the spotlight.

I for one can't wait to see them get stepped on.

borscht said: It attempts to move the light of investigation away from Your Transgression to someone else with the same or similar transgression.

No, it wakes people up to the fact that the investigation will not and can not stop with the church. Its not my fault if people are too lazy to conduct investigations of child sex abuse on more than one institution at a time. Its a fact that the church is being singled out, not a defense. People need to pay attention to other orgs as well, not think their child is now "safe" since you pulled him out of the church choir!

This is a correlary to the first strategy, which was "blame the victim" ("but they didn't tell us, blah, blah, blah"). Next, you do "blame the messenger" ("it's like they are anti-semitic").

The reverend is also correct in pointing out that the church is not the only institution with this problem.

While true, this is the five-year-old defense: 'Billy did it, too!" It attempts to move the light of investigation away from Your Transgression to someone else with the same or similar transgression. Can you imagine a priest's response to this confession: "I've committed murder. But Billy did it, too!" Priest: Oh, okay then, never mind.

The Catholic church in the Vatican is starting to make Scientology look good.

That's not a compliment.

Somebody needs to get some real courage in the church and say this is enough. Get down to the facts and get this properly past them. Because the longer they procrastinate the worse it's going to get. < :-)

Is this Cantalamessa fellow insane? Jews weren't sent to Auschwitz, etc., for molesting children. They were innocent, unlike the the pedophile priests. If the catholic church is being "collectively stereotyped," perhaps that is because bishops, archbishops, cardinals and successive popes collectively participated in a collective cover-up at the highest organizational level.

It seems that that prophecy that this Pope will be the one before the last is coming true...

That is lie of western mythology. The only religion we can all come to agree is true is no religion too.

Both Jewish and victims’ groups responded that it was inappropriate to compare the discomfort being experienced by the church leadership in the sex abuse scandal to the violence that culminated in the Holocaust.

And just how did the Holocaust enter this discussion? Was it the Jewish groups or was it the press that inserted that little dramatization? The reverend spoke of "violence against Jews" which far predates the Holocaust and frankly was a popular past-time in all Christian countries. The Jews were collectively blamed for the crucifiction of Christ, just as the Catholic church is being collectively blamed for child sex abuse. The comparison is valid, its just that the reverend forgot that most people can't think rationally because of their emotions and tendency to exaggerate.

The reverend is also correct in pointing out that the church is not the only institution with this problem. What he did not say is that the church has been especially stupid in solving its own problem.

To the “more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

Does this mean that the Catholic Church under Pope Benedict does not believe all aspects of anti-Semitism are shameful? What a relief, there are probably any number of Muslim fundamentalists, radical Christians and white supremacists who are breathing a collective sigh of relief.

Cynicism off

When you're in a hole, stop digging. Shame on the Vatican, I'm embarressed to be a Catholic.

It seems that that prophecy that this Pope will be the one before the last is coming true...

Isn't it interesting how the aggressor finally appears as the victim?