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Pregnant woman and husband gunned down in Pakistan honor killing

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Everyone should wake up. It's not a peaceful religion. These horrific killings are a product barbaric Sharia laws.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif vowed to eradicate the “evil” of honor killings

Perhaps President Obama can lecture him about "tolerance." Or thats its pc to refer to these acts as "evil". (Since the couple was "gunned down") . . . Obama might say, "Guns are the problem not radical, savage islamic beliefs."

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@Wc626 I'm frequently critical of Islam but honour killings aren't restricted to Islam.

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(Ohh there they go!) . . . why do these savages make the headlines about honour killings all the time? And why aren't you criticizing / blasting guns? The young couple was "gunned down" for crying out loud.

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This was the opposite of an honorable act.

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This was the opposite of an honorable act.

Isn't it? Gunning a man & woman down for being in love. But, but . . . but, I thought islam was a peaceful and loving religion? She was 18 and he was 22 when they got married. Yeah, that's pretty young, but they certainly didn't deserve to be "gunned down".

A couple days ago a woman doused her daughter with a flammable liquid and burned her alive. . . this too was another islamic "honour killing" -good riddance.

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@Wc626 I'll call Sharia barbaric. I'll call honour killings barbaric. I'll call gun-lovers barbaric.

I often criticise religion and many of my posts criticizing Islam get zapped. You launched into a tirade about Sharia. I pointed out that honour killings are not exclusive to Islamic societies. What's the problem?

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@Wc626

Obama might say, "Guns are the problem not radical, savage islamic beliefs."

I don't see what Obama has to do with it, though I agree this is a problem of Islam and the fix must be in Islam. Meanwhile, I also agree that non-Islamic societies want to limit, though not ban, this influence and the numbers of Muslims coming from regions and demographics where this is a problem. This is complicated and we need a bit of sense and a measured thinking. In the U.S., certainly guns need to be looked at, though it's true that lone or group radicals can find other ways to do harm. Islam has a big problem but Muslims are the ones mostly suffering here. I feel for the people who live with it: women, gays and folk who want to express themselves and their otherness. Islam has a unique problem currently. Muslims who think this doesn't express some aspect of Islam are not doing themselves or the world any favors.

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I don't see what Obama has to do with it

He has nothing to do with it. But when islam pulls the trigger on it's own, nobody gives a crap. But when a gay nightclub or some Christmas Party (San Bernardino) is shot hell by islam, "all of a sudden" its a gun problem.

Ohh the hypocrisy!!

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here you go with outwith knowing about these killings they put it and blaming Islam for it, now this platform will be open for Islamophobic to say every things about Islam, they will abuse,saying lie and create hate and the mediator will remain sleep for this page as usual.

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Call me wrong, but is this not just bloody ignorant pride, a social status or cast problem, rather than a religious one?

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here you go with outwith knowing about these killings they put it and blaming Islam for it

You're right. I know nothing about these so-called, "honour killings". I do think its wrong to burn your own daughter alive. Or to gun down a young couple, islamic or not. She was pregnant for crying out loud.

Whatever their problems are, they need to fix it there. That's all we need. . . . these kinds of muslims immigrating into the US. Do their despicable "honour killings" in some mosque inside the US.

It's bad enough there are drive-bye shootings by thugs across the US.

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@Wc626 @Ali Khan @nandakandamanda Well, it IS a gun problem as well as a "religion" problem. Can't it be both? Why should any nut job be able to get a hold of any weapon?

@Ali Khan

Why do you want the moderator to shut down the discussion? Do you feel it is out of bounds to criticize religion? It is not "Islamophobic" to criticize Islam. Honor killings may indeed be more prevalent in today's Islam. There is no doubt that there are a lot of bad ideas coming out of the Islamic community just as it's true that Muslims suffer most because of these ideas. Too many Muslims have the goal of having societies or communities governed by Islamic law. Not all. But too many. I would not want to live in a place where this was a popular idea. Nor would I want to allow many people who felt this way into where I lived. Too many Muslims bring their hatred of Jews with them when they immigrate, as well. On the other hand, America needs Muslims and not all Muslims feel this way. Both Christians and Muslims have preached hate against gays and found justification in their religions for this hate. They should be called out for it. Misogyny is also a particular problem in many of today's Muslim communities. It's up to Muslims to fix this problem. I hope the moderator allows the discussion to proceed. Maybe we can learn something. Me too!

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These horrific killings are a product barbaric Sharia laws.

@Wc626, your ignorant posts are not helpful. You might have noticed that those protesting against such killings in Pakistan are largely Muslim too. You might also have noticed that similar killings take place in India among Hindus.

If you talked about such killings being a product of backward societies and outdated morality, you might get more respect.

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@albaleo It's true that this is a problem amongst Hindus as well. But I think it's also true that islam has something to do with this. FGM and other crimes against women don't happen solely in Muslim countries, but they are mostly found amongst Muslim communities. It's true that mostly Muslims suffer and that Muslim girls, gays (etc.) need our support. But, I've seen some Muslims say you can't be gay and be a Muslim, so this is a debate that needs to be had about and within Islam. A large population of Muslims around the world think that Islam should govern their communities and societies. This is true. And it has to be opposed.

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@shallots

I generally agree with your comments. Wc262's immediate reaction was to point the finger at Islam and Sharia, while apparently knowing little about either. The crimes against women you mention also tend to happen more, although not exclusively, in the poorest communities. So which is the bigger barrier to progress - Islam or poverty? Perhaps there is a connection - does Islam enforce poverty or does Islam offer more hope for the poor than other religions?

There is a debate within the Muslim community. (The protest groups in Pakistan are evidence of this.) Let's hope progress is made. But I don't think it helps to tar every Muslim with the same brush. I have met Muslims who are as liberal and lefty as myself. I think their beliefs are batty, but no more than the beliefs of my Christian and Buddhist friends. Ali Kahn's reaction above is understandable. It would be sad if we were to alienate those Muslims who are for progress.

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@albaleo It's a good discussion. I hope it continues. Poverty probably contributes a lot, yet many terrorist attacks are carried out by middle class people. It's a thorny issue definitely. Still, Islam itself can be and is used to justified terrible treatment of women and, as I said, there are widespread beliefs amongst Muslims that are counter to progressivism, democracy, humanism and liberalism. Islam itself is implicated and Muslims leaders and views cannot be excused from this discussion. There is pushback. There are many Muslims who share democratic secular values and we need their voices in our societies. Still, there is a problem in today's Islam. I'd go so far as to say there is a special problem there, unique to it. This is not to say that other religions don't have problems. Neither are all religions the same.

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albaleo:

" The crimes against women you mention also tend to happen more, although not exclusively, in the poorest communities. So which is the bigger barrier to progress - Islam or poverty "

"poverty" is a politically correct excuse that does not stand a reality check. Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries in the word and has all this. For that matter, Osama Bin Ladin himself comes from on of the richest families in Saudi.

" There are many Muslims who share democratic secular values and we need their voices in our societies. "

Yes there are. But they are not excempting islam, they are trying to change islam. By parrotting the line that there is no problem with islamic doctrine, that it is all poverty or the evil West or whatever else excuse you come up with, you are supporting the islamists and working against the moderates.

That is the tragedy with the regressive left in the West.

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@WilliB You're quoting me I believe. Be careful to distinguish whom you address here since I specifically said that this is a problem unique to Islam. I am not saying what Islam is. But I am saying what the state of Islam is. I do believe Islam has unique hurdles to modernization. But, I hope Muslims themselves can change its meaning. It may be our only hope.

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@shallots

Poverty probably contributes a lot, yet many terrorist attacks are carried out by middle class people. It's a thorny issue definitely.

Good point. I wonder how I would have behaved if I'd been brought up as a Muslim. As a Christian in the UK, it wasn't exactly difficult as a teenager to say I no longer believe in God and stop going to Church. (I can imagine my Mum saying, "OK, but what would you like for dinner?") But if I were a Muslim, I imagine it would be much harder (although I guess it would depend on circumstances). Would I have rationalized my beliefs, and, being a typical growing kid, sought outlets such as terrorist activities instead of trying to find girls and going on CND marches? I think it's possible, which is worrying.

In Glasgow recently, there has been news of a split in the main mosque where a group of younger members have been trying to oust the older, conservative establishment. This group probably deserves the description "radical" more than ISIS and the like who are anything but radical*. A third group of women members then appeared describing both other groups as male-dominated and old-fashioned. Let's hope there is a good outcome.

*(Using violence to enforce an ancient interpretation of ancient documents is not radical.)

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@albaleo It's so hard to describe this issue and I think I contradicted myself a bit. I'm not an expert on it but I think Islam has special problems. Some Muslim leaders, even in the UK, express outrageous views that can be squared with conservative interpretations of text. It's not that this doesn't happen sometimes with other religions but it's rarer and Islam seems to have more trouble separating itself theologically from government and from individual violence. Islam seems to have a special problem with radicalization of youth. There is a view of homosexuality and women within Islam that is disgusting and must be opposed and eradicated. This view is not entirely absent from other religions. But, it seems to be more toxic, stubborn, prevalent and violent within Islam.

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"poverty" is a politically correct excuse that does not stand a reality check. Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries in the word and has all this.

@WilliB

I'd be interested to see evidence of this, one way or the other. Saudi Arabia may have all these things, but is it as prevalent as in, say, Afghanistan or Sudan? I honestly don't know, and haven't been able to find any reliable data. I'll accept that poverty isn't the only factor. I used the term "backward" in my first post, and that may be a better description, even if open to interpretation. It might be partly related to poverty, but also includes thing such as male-domination, strict religious views with penalties for apostasy, and that horrible cycle of older women taking the "it was good enough for me" attitude.

Like shallots, I'm probably contradicting myself. But I think we learn by asking questions and scratching our heads.

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I'd venture to say that Saudi Arabia relies on religion for the determination and application of criminal penalties and that this process is disgusting, unjust, misogynistic, inhumane, barbarous, and contrary to the values of liberal society (with a small "l"), healthy development and the well-being of humanity. Perhaps there is a less subjective way to express this idea. In any case, it is not poverty. Perhaps something called Wahhabism. I know almost nothing about the history and details of that religious formulation except that I've heard it said that it's the particular cause of the religious backwardness in that region. Is it Islam? Yes it is (though not the whole of it, of course).

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We need to stop all this pc. Omar was interrogated a couple times by the FBI. He should've been detained, in custody, for further investigation..

I don't see the link between political correctness and the FBI investigating a threat. They investigated him, didn't see enough evidence of anything, then moved on. If you have some knowledge that the agents had evidence of something but buried it because they were afraid to go after a Muslim, then please post it.

His US citizenship should taken a backseat to National Security

I think you are referring to due process, or suspending it. You might have heard of due process before, the GOP is using it to defend Omar's right to walk into a gun shop and buy an AR-15. But we won't be changing that anytime soon.

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@SuperLib I have to agree. What you're saying seems obvious to us. Is there any constitutional process for revoking a citizen's citizenship? Makes no sense. Wc626's confusion does not really help us here. Ali Khan doesn't seem much better.

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shallots'

abusing and criticizing are two different things, the moderator always says stay on topic and avoid abusing but when it comes to the Muslims and Islam every thing is allowed,

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@jimizo: you wrote many countries have this kind of practice. I am not religious so educate me. Does Japan included in your list?

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toshiko

when an ex-boyfriend kill his ex-girl friend does it not similar to the honor killing, hear a girl abandon her ex-boyfriend and in the so called honor killing the girl abandon her family. but the media will not label it as an honor killing and similarly when a European start mass killing the media protect him/her just killing it a mental illness, but if the killer as a Muslim he is terrorist without any investigation

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@Toshiko

I didn't write many countries have this kind of practice, I said it isn't exclusive to Islamic societies. This is from Wiki:

"In addition, the United Nations Commission on Human Rights gathered reports from several countries and considering only the countries that submitted reports it was shown that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda.[92] [93]

According to Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, the practice of honor killing "goes across cultures and across religions."

I think it's wrong to single out Islam in this case.

@Ali Khan I think you'll find that religion, including Islam, is given privileged status. You can say pretty much anything about other belief systems, for example political beliefs, without getting censored. Religion, including Islam, shouldn't expect any special treatment. Some people don't like religion. They have that right.

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@Jimizo

I think it's wrong to single out Islam in this case.

Maybe, maybe not. I see one study online that makes the following claim:

Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers.

I'm not sure how reliable this study is. You can easily find the website and evaluate it. Misogyny is not limited to Islamic societies or Islam. However, Islamic text, Islamicism, and toxicity within today's Islam may make some of these problems (FGM, honor killings, homophobia, antisemitism) specific to and worse for Muslim societies.

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The mental illness called religion + guns = very poor combination

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I was curious so I googled 'honor killing.' Wikipedia states it cut across cultural lines, it's found in every culture. But running down the examples sited in various countries the names always seem to be Muslim. A Muslim in Norway doesn't make it Norwegian. Sorry.

I don't doubt it occasionally happens in other cultures but it seems to be a big part of Islamic culture. I will continue to research. Since Orlando I have been reassesing the way Islam and terrorism are portrayed in the media and by our cultural elites. I'm beginning to feel the moderate Muslim is scarcer than imagined.

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"Stay classy, Pakistan."

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Some "relatives". Hope they catch them and wonder what kind of punishment they'll receive. Tell them the BC era is thataway -->

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. . . And some people say "religion" has nuthing to do with it.

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Agree that this is an unholy crossroads of culture and religion. However, if you check polling data of Muslims in many countries, you will find widespread support for the concept of honor killing. Depending on the country, from 40% to 70% of Muslims polled believe that honor killing is justifiable, especially when it is a female family member involved. I defy anyone to find comparable statistics for another religion.

This is mainstream belief in Islam, not radical.

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