Pressure builds on China to drop its Russian ally

Two evils.

China could easily end this war. Russia’s plan for the war shows their incompetence. They were not prepared for Ukraine’s resistance. Nobody was brave enough to tell Putin the plans sucked. China is probably embarrassed by Russia’s performance. China is supplying Russia with all its MREs. Cut their logics and the war is over. The problem is China is not really pro-Russia but anti-US, so they have not done anything.

Instead, as recently as last week Beijing called the partnership between the two "rock-solid".

Putin would have never pulled the trigger on the invasion without knowing he could fall back on China economically.

Xi and lap dogs grubble, Chinese leaders psychological inferiority ,option lead to their demise

The US wastes its time, China will never bow to the whims of the decadent Western powers.

The opium wars are still in Chinese memory and sooner or later China will collect its fair and timely payment from the West.

Why does the US try to force China not to help Russia, when the US helps Ukraine and intervens on the countries wherever it wants for its sole, own and greedy benefit???..

History is watching, Xi.

There's only one side to take in this war.

And it isn't Russia.

China is buying it on the cheap from Russia because now Russia has a huge surplus that they can't sell to anyone else.

Wow. Sounds like Russia has it made.

China is buying it on the cheap from Russia because now Russia hasty a huge surplus that they can't sell to anyone else.

If China sold Russian oil, there’d be Western countries that buy it.

Drop Russia? Never going to happen.

Sure, just sanction the heck out of the Chinese like we're doing to the Russians and see what happens.

Who gives a hoot about the price of gas at the pump, higher electricity bills or having to pay out of your nose for a loaf of bread on top of your other daily commodities?

Solidarity doesn't pay the bills, but if it makes you feel good about yourself, then go for it.

Solidarity doesn't pay the bills, but if it makes you feel good about yourself, then go for it.

Well you either have a backbone and a moral compass or you don’t I guess

They are already testing a payment system that could be an alternative to SWIFT.

CIPS or SPFS? Both have been already in place for years and are still capable of conducting only a very small fraction of what SWIFT does. Small potatoes. That’s why Russian and China both still use SWIFT, well, China does.

Or are you saying they are testing a new payment system? If CIPS and SPFS haven’t been able to make a dent in SWIFT during the last 7 years they had better be working on something pretty revolutionary.

China sees no need to dig the US out of the hole it dug for itself.

It is the US that sponsored the coup against the legitimate government of Ukraine.

It is the US that encouraged the violation of the Minsk Treaty that tried to bring peace back to Ukraine.

It is the US that refuses to accept the inevitable result of those actions, Ukraine going the way of Yugoslavia.

While the US sees the situation as pressure building on China to back it, China sees the situation as pressure building on the US to back down.

And the reality is that illegal (actually, and in the longstanding view of China and many other states) American sanctions produce a very spectacular short term effect, but then the double edged reality of them becomes apparent as the costs of America and it's minions cutting themselves off from the resources they need mount, and the reality that all the thefts will need to be paid back, with penalties, sinks in.

Like Obama, Biden (or his successor) is going to face the choice between 'voluntarily' paying (The 'planeloads of cash') or involuntarily paying (having its assets legally seized to pay the debts it reneged on, and the assets it stole)

Say all you want about china. They’re just as evil as Russia but are a heck of a lot smarter. They literally invented the “Art of War”.

Or are you saying they are testing a new payment system? If CIPS and SPFS haven’t been able to make a dent in SWIFT during the last 7 years they had better be working on something pretty revolutionary.

CIPS only handles cross border transactions of Chinese companies in Renminbi and it does not handle large capital transfers whatsoever. While originally thought it might someday compete with SWIFT its scope was greatly scaled back in the aftermath of China's 2015 banking crisis. Today it is restricted to clearing cross border transactions by Chinese companies conducted only in Renminbi, consolidating the work of a hodge podge of banks that used to clear such transactions.

SPFS only operates regular business hours M-F Moscow time and only handles about 20% of Russia's financial transactions. About 7 or 8 foreign countries participate in it, and those are former SSRs and two banks in China. Neither is going to replace SWIFT. But go ahead and dream your dreams.

It is the US that sponsored the coup against the legitimate government of Ukraine.

Nonsense. The people of the Ukraine fought to get rid of a President who lied to them and instead of pursuing EU membership as promised instead proposed an economic union with Russia. That was after a previous Ukrainian Presidential candidate was poisoned and very nearly killed by the Russians. The Ukrainians wanted no part of Russia and still don't.

Ukraine going the way of Yugoslavia.

The former Yugoslavia is a mess because of Russian interference supporting genocidal policies of the Serbian side. Srebrenica anyone? That is your Russian backed Serbs for you, genocidal maniacs. Just like the Russians are. They are still at it in Kosovo and Bosnia Herzegovina.

All those Micky-Ds, KFCs, GAP stores, Old Navy stores and Starbucks in China, the Toyota, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Ford and GM auto plants, the big Boeing final assembly plant, Tesla, Panasonic, and all the rest better start planning their exit from China. The EU and US need to start analyzing what happens if China is booted from SWIFT, the US Dollar and the WTO. It's time to cut the cord, and oh yeah, don't forget to erase and re-format every computer, every assembly robot, every control system on the way out the door.

The funny thing about Russia and China is that the wealth and good fortune they've accumulated and enjoyed in very recent history has been because of open trade relations with the USA and the EU. Now they've gotten too big for their britches, so to speak, and they seem to want to show off to the world what bad asses they still are. If they've really forgotten how they arrived at where they are today, then we should all forget about the both of them and let them have each other. Russia is apparently that stupid, but China might be having second thoughts about it now.

As I've said before, China and Russia are hardly good friends....just look at the "border war" which occurred between the two for seven months in 1969...

Russia knows China has sights on areas near its southern borders, which are sparsely populated and could easily see an influx of Han Chinese. Russia knows all the military goods and tech it sold to China which were than copied and re-sold. The Shenyang J-11 is nothing but a copied Russian Su-27, which the Chinese now sell to Pakistan. China knows Russia's economy is less than NY, California, or Texas, and that Russians aren't going to be buying all those Chinese-made goods. There's not a lot of trust between these two...

The only thing they really agree on is that a divided US is in both their interests - and a dictator-friendly Repub like Trump or one of his ilk in the WH would make both Russia and China Great Again...

The US and UK are good friends, and they had a war most recently in 1812.

NATO needs to become directly involved and start an attack on Russia.

China won't be betting on this type of action.

As much as US & Friends would benefit from China doing that, it makes no sense for China to. They benefit from being Russia's sole major trading partner now. I suppose you can't begrudge them trying, the worst that is going to happen is China tells them "no".

"Why would China even consider not to support Russia, or even worse, undermine (its) alliance with Russia?" said Alexander Korolev,

Absolutely this, it's like expecting an EU member to side with China against the US, it just makes no sense.

It is somewhat ironic that the diplomatic birds come home to roost with both China and Venezuela now. All the anti-China and anti-Maduro rhetoric really coming back to bite them. I wonder if we will suddenly see a lot of pro-China stories in US media as an olive branch, like we did when the US was trying to get oil from Venezuela.

What would the west do anyway when China refuses, sanction them? Europe is reeling from the Russian sanctions alone already, they'd be digging their grave if they sanctioned China too. They need China far more than the inverse, China has made sure they have domestic alternatives in all their markets. They're not dumb, they saw what western forces did to the Soviet Union or Cuba and did everything they could to ensure that the same could not happen to them.

It just seems like futile gesture that everybody knows the outcome of. Still, worth taking a shot I suppose.

China won't afraid another "Trade War", the west is embarrassing when they are watching the fall of Kyiv!

Pressure builds on China to drop its Russian ally:

China can easily ignore such uncalled-for pressure while still being sanctioned.

Why would China pull its lifeline from isolated Russia at this crucial juncture?

As an ally, Beijing is doing what it can to assist Moscow, overtly or covertly.

Like I said before china must be crapping itself these days, they are now in a bit of a tough spot.

As pointed out there is NO LOVE between russia & china, their only common point is they are anti-USA.....thats pretty much it.

Also as I have been saying for decades the West MUST start getting outta china & we are seeing rather clearly now exactly WHY!

china will either explode, implode or both, it clearly doesnt want to deal with internal strife so we look to start outside if they have too & if they come to russia's aid it could get real nasty quick once we slap similar sanctions on china.....

If it comes to that things are going to get global & life for many will be much more than severely impacted, for me I know it will likely destroy my 3+ decades put into Japan that covid has not so slowed destroyed my gains, if Ukraine conflict widens its over me & will be for many many others.

This all could escalate pretty quick!

I think China's influence is perhaps being over-stated just because its not likely to do anything drastic either way on Ukraine.

On the one hand, its not going to ditch Russia. Russia is now weaker and going to be completely dependent on China economically, which means China has enormous leverage over it. Why would it give that up?

On the other hand, Russia's weakness and dependence also means China doesn't really have much incentive to help it either. Its not like Russia is going to say "Hey, help us out in the Ukraine or we'll be allies with someone else!" because nobody else wants them and China knows this. And helping out in an overt way would risk blowback from Europe and the US, which do have some economic leverage against China.

Really China's best play is to just keep what they are doing now - not throwing Russia under the bus but also not offering it any serious help - and just let everyone else deal with the mess in Ukraine Putin has created.

Absolutely this, it's like expecting an EU member to side with China against the US, it just makes no sense.

And yet there you have Victor Orban, the PM of Hungary, a NATO and EU member state parroting Russian talking points and running his own country much as Vladimir Putin runs Russia.

Why would China pull its lifeline from isolated Russia at this crucial juncture?

China has a lot more to lose from being denied the use of the US Dollar, US financial system and access to SWIFT than Russia has. It would crush their economy utterly and Baby Ping Ping knows it. He must thread the needle with care.

NATO needs to become directly involved and start an attack on Russia.

Instant nuclear war. Tens to maybe hundreds of millions dead. Unless NATO is under direct attack or Russia is using nuclear weapons on Ukraine it is a non-starter.

Desert

When were you last in Hungary? It is definitely not run like Putin's Russia, whatever Orban may think of the reasons for the war etc....

Europe is reeling from the Russian sanctions alone already, they'd be digging their grave if they sanctioned China too.

Less than you think. What China sells a lot of is made in a lot of other places besides China. Europe makes all the home appliances you could ever want. They make cars, they grow enough food to feed themselves, the compete with China for oil and natural resources. It is not as if cutting China off from the EU market is going to cause a lot of suffering. I have boycotted Chinese products for a good two decades now and am not giving anything up that I want. Every consumer product I have is made somewhere other than China. Much of it is made in the US. Europe has great companies like the Electrolux Group with all its many brands, Miele, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Siemens, Nokia, Nokian (the tire company), Michelin, and on and on all of which manufacture in the EU. Same thing in the US. My major appliances are made in the US by Whirlpool. If I lived in Europe I'd buy from Electrolux. I don't need Chinese merde to live comfortably. No one does.

The only thing they really agree on is that a divided US is in both their interests - and a dictator-friendly Repub like Trump or one of his ilk in the WH would make both Russia and China Great Again...

Trump gave Xi and Putin lots of lip service and allowed them to wine and dine him but it's a Dem myth that his policies went easy on either country.

Less than you think. What China sells a lot of is made in a lot of other places besides China. Europe makes all the home appliances you could ever want. They make cars, they grow enough food to feed themselves, the compete with China for oil and natural resources. It is not as if cutting China off from the EU market is going to cause a lot of suffering.

As far as finished goods, you are totally correct. You can get many of the same things, or at least similar, from many different manufacturers. Don't want a Huawei phone? Plenty of alternatives. Of course, this does work both ways. China wouldn't be hurt nearly as much as Russia by sanctions, because they develop most everything they need domestically.

That isn't what would hurt the western markets the most though. Losing both China and Russia would be devastating to the supply of rare earth metals and electrical components. All those products you listed, while some may be made outside China, require Chinese components to be made. Australia and the US reserves alone won't be enough to keep the supply up. Especially as most of the American rare-earth metals are earmarked for defense already, since the pentagon understandably doesn't want to be beholden to China for their defense manufacturing.

Now I have no doubt that every country in the world is looking into alternatives, but I don't think they are at the point of being able to boycott China and Russia simultaneously. Maybe they will seek out improved relations with Myanmar as they have major deposits, but recent events there make that seem unlikely.

Now I have no doubt that every country in the world is looking into alternatives, but I don't think they are at the point of being able to boycott China and Russia simultaneously.

I think the world is ready to if necessary. Suddenly a lot of frogs are waking up to the fact that Russia and China have been turning up the heat on the water.

I wonder what constitutes intense diplomatic pressure from the US.

Beijing has shown few signs of abandoning its friends in the Kremlin.

Xi Jinping and Putin are both megalomaniacs, how long can they be partners before they start their own territory wars. But Putin cultists might have been able to realize that Putin would lie down with Xi, had they the ability to read reports from media other than RT and from anonymous posters on Reddit, Quora and the like or from an outlet owned by some billionaire extremist.

Are there Russian versions of Walmart to buy and sell flimsy Chinese plastic goods, and will the ordinary Russian have enough money to buy Chinese schlock? How many more plastic Matryuska dolls can China produce? What will Russia do with all the plastic eventually thrown away? It's a huge country but already has serious environmental problems (see methane bomb from melting permafrost). Plastics that cannot be appropriately disposed of are yet another wasteful product dumped on the world by the petrochemical barons.

The only thing they really agree on is that a divided US is in both their interests - and a dictator-friendly Repub like Trump or one of his ilk in the WH would make both Russia and China Great Again...

This current administration is allowing Russia to be great again or what it once was and China to be just great.

Putin is now begging for support from Beijing. His desperate appeal may be successful in drawing China to the axis of evil in the end.

A critical question pops up; is such what Putin really intended prior to the invasion? He has always prioritized national security and independence, his war-mongering acts in the past have been done and justified accordingly. China's involvement in the war at this moment will eventually make Russia weaker and more vulnerable, regardless of war outcomes. Between China and Russia lie the long borders with virtually no buffer states (perhaps save Mongolia). Poor Russian economy will become more dependent on China while the latter aims for Siberian resources at will.

Moral issues aside, Putin's attempt will fail strategically, and his country being downgraded into a vassal state tarnished the great Russia. Putin will be remembered as "Tsar the Lackland" :)

This current administration is allowing Russia to be great again or what it once was 

How so?

Its pretty apparent that Russia is much weaker now than it was a month ago and that its reduced power is likely to be permanent and that has little to do with anything Biden has or hasn't done.

Its economy is likely to fall 10-15% in size this year, and its isolation from Western markets is likely to be in place for many years to come, which will probably see it fall even further in subsequent years before it hits bottom. Europe is politically committed to ending its dependence on Russian energy in the next five years, and that is basically the main thing Russia's economy runs on. China isn't going to make up for that, particularly with gas once Europe stops buying it they don't really have the infrastructure to move it elsewhere. Anyway you slice it, Russia's economy is going to be structurally way weaker than it was a month ago for many many years to come.

And militarily, Russia is way weaker than it was a month ago mainly because the fundamental incompetence of its conventional forces have been laid bare. It has a lot of military hardware, but its clear that corruption and incompetence in its forces means that it can't deploy them effectively. If it can't even conquer Ukraine right next door, then it has no hope of ever being a serious threat to NATO. This was of course the case all along, but now that NATO knows that Russia's military is basically a paper tiger Russian sabre rattling isn't going to have the same effect it used to because everyone knows it isn't credible anymore.

Diplomatically....its basically been kicked out of everything and China is its only important friend, and that friendship has its obvious limits.

Anyway you slice it, Russia is a much much weaker country than it was a month ago.

The only thing they really agree on is that a divided US is in both their interests - and a dictator-friendly Repub like Trump or one of his ilk in the WH would make both Russia and China Great Again...

This current administration is allowing Russia to be great again or what it once was and China to be just great.

Hmmmm.....

“One of the many great things about our just signed giant Trade Deal with China is that it will bring both the USA & China closer together in so many other ways. Terrific working with President Xi, a man who truly loves his country. Much more to come!”

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736

Stay in your lane China.

The starving Russian troops and now looting and shooting civilians for food. This is the modern Russian army.

its giant southwestern ally -- China

Southwestern, from which vantage point?

If china wants to alienate the world and align itself with Russia, who now have a worthless currency and a government collapse in the near future, so be it. Let them fall together.

*“One of the many great things about our just signed giant Trade Deal with China is that it will bring both the USA & China closer together in so many other ways. Terrific working with President Xi, a man who truly loves his country. Much more to come!”*

*“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, *on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

And what does Trump have to do with the current ongoing events? Stay current Putin and Xi are mocking this current administration, now if they can ultimately defeat or stop this incursion and get them running on their real heels that would be a great accomplishment for this WH and so far that is not happening.

And what does Trump have to do with the current ongoing events? 

He was deferential to both countries, especially Russia, and helped set the stage for this invasion through his subservience to Putin.

*“One of the many great things about our just signed giant Trade Deal with China is that it will bring both the USA & China closer together in so many other ways. Terrific working with President Xi, a man who truly loves his country. Much more to come!”**

“China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, ****on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

And what does Trump have to do with the current ongoing events?

He think's he's still President - didn't you hear what he said at his latest rally? Besides, he's still sending millions to the CCP to make his Trump Collection clothing line...

Stay current Putin and Xi are mocking this current administration, now if they can ultimately defeat or stop this incursion and get them running on their real heels that would be a great accomplishment for this WH and so far that is not happening.

What? Biden and Zelensky are showing what real leaders they are - while Putin sits at his table in his bunker talking to people from 15 feet away...his only happy time is watching all the Fox News talking heads praise him...

The walls should close in on that.

Is it true, though? Russia is committing war crimes, doubtless. But "Russians eat babies and drink blood" is a well-worn piece of propaganda from WW2.

Like, where are they getting babies from? People don't tend to leave babies just on the ground when they're leaving a city.

What's the source? Who said this? What is their evidence?

Russia needs to be kicked out of Ukraine, and prosecuted for war crimes. But it does no good to paint them as, like, Darth Hitler Skeletor villains.