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Putin warns West: Moscow has 'red line' about Ukraine, NATO

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By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV

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“What should we do?” Putin said. “We would need to develop something similar to target those who threaten us. And we can do that even now.”

So you’re admitting to what you’ve already done to justify what you plan to do.

Nice circular logic there Vladimir. By the by, NATO also has a nice array of weapons and some red lines of our own. (Just so you know)

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

It is probably a good thing I'm not the US President because I would probably want to send some US forces to conduct training with the Ukrainian military right about now. Not a lot of forces perhaps but they would have back up in Poland and Romania and at Fort Bragg, just in case.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Similarly they should go to the US-Canada border and deploy military there lol, would love to see the US' reaction since this is exactly what they/Nato are doing.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

What should we do?” Putin said. “We would need to develop something similar to target those who threaten us.

Putin seems to be living in a fantasy land. There is nobody anywhere threatening to invade or take over Russia. Nobody is interested. Putin uses such a narrative to maintain support from other fearmongers in his country.

When the USSR collapsed the west was happy to welcome Russia to a free Europe, but Putin had other ideas. For Russia it is all about power over others and "maintain the threat" to maintain control.

He is still spouting the rubbish that there are military threats to Russia from the west that is much more comfortable in being passive and looking for trade. Hesitation to spend up to 2% of GDP by most of those in NATO show their intent. To sit on their hands and be a threat to no one.

Many in Russia see through Putin but with opposition leaders constantly harassed, poisoned, imprisoned or expelled and elections rigged there is no opportunity for change in Russia.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

In Russia, when asked about Biden possibly seeking a second term, Putin said he thought that would help political stability in the U.S.

So now if Biden wins in 2024, we know who's behind it.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Red line? What red line?! This is like listening to the cat that swallowed Crimea.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

I am wondering when Putin san will be dead what will happen to Russia.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

It's absolutely ridiculous that in this day and age we are still having these fears. AFAICS the EU has no designs on invading and taking over Russia, the UK.....simply irrelevant in this and it would simply play a lapdog role.....does the US? I don't think there is any real appetite for taking over Russia....but you can never tell as the Hawks in US political circles still think of themselves as "protectors of freedom". Does Russia want to invade Ukraine.....I'm not convinced but like the US, I'm not sure the hawks there wouldn't wanna reclaim THEIR past glories and territories. FFS isn't it about time we stop this garbage?

The US would have a fit.....indeed DID have a fit.....if the Russians deployed any weaponry close to their borders

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Peter14

Putin seems to be living in a fantasy land. There is nobody anywhere threatening to invade or take over Russia. Nobody is interested. Putin uses such a narrative to maintain support from other fearmongers in his country

NATO seems to be living in a fantasy land. There is nobody anywhere threatening to invade or take over Ukraine. Nobody is interested. Keep this ransacked, impoverished country for yourself. NATO uses such a narrative to maintain support from its member states to justify its existence.

When the USSR collapsed

With the USSR also collapsed the Warsaw Pact. NATO should have disbanded itself then, since there were no raison d'etre left for it. But it remained as an instrument of American dominance and as a mallet for any country unhappy with it.

He is still spouting the rubbish that there are military threats to Russia from the west

Even after its aggressions against Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya the West still spouting the rubbish that there are no military threats from it. Yeah, sure. But when NATO is lurking around better to be prepared.

The touching friendship between "democratic" NATO and Ukraine, where World War II local nazi collaborators are official state heroes, is particularly noteworty. D-Day heroes are spinning in their graves.

Here what the present Ukrainian regime does: the Ally of Angels, a monument to dozens, may be hundreds of kids from Donbass, killed by almost daily artiilery fire of Ukrainian forces:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley_of_Angels_in_Donetsk

0 ( +3 / -3 )

NATO seems to be living in a fantasy land. There is nobody anywhere threatening to invade or take over Ukraine.

Except for Russia.

With the USSR also collapsed the Warsaw Pact. NATO should have disbanded itself then,

The USSR broke up because it was an Authoritarian system based in Russia as was the Warsaw pact.

They failed to be able to maintain their regime and broke apart. Why should NATO disband? The idea of collective safety and of working together in cooperation didnt break and cooperation and friendship is always worth maintaining. Perhaps Russia should have tried to join the EU and or NATO as other former USSR states did.

But it remained as an instrument of American dominance and as a mallet for any country unhappy with it.

Russia still using the US as the bogey man. Europe is a mature group of states that can and do choose for themselves what their future is. If they want to disband NATO they do not need the US approval. They want to keep it so it stays relevant.

Even after its aggressions against Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya the West still spouting the rubbish that there are no military threats from it.

Yugoslavia self destructed into civil war and split up. Nato went in and brought an enforced peace to end the slaughter. But you can twist that to make the US and Nato as bad because it worked against your allies the Serbs.

Iraq was about regime change to get Saddam out. Right or wrong I have no issue with no Saddam in charge of Iraq.

Libya was another basket case with a despot in charge and a people who had had enough of his rule as shown by his ending at the hands of his people.

Even after its aggressions against Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya the West still spouting the rubbish that there are no military threats from it.

Russia collaborated with the Nazi's until attacked in 1941 so it is in no position to criticize the Ukraine. Nazi's freed the Ukraine from the Russians and only after the Nazi's ignored them and killed them at will did they rise up against the Germans.

The regions that Russia broke away from the Ukraine shell the Ukraine forces as often as they get shelled. Both sides are on eggshells but it does suit your narrative to ignore the deaths and destruction Russian allies cause in the Ukraine. No Angels there.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

There is nobody anywhere threatening to invade or take over Ukraine. 

Then tell us a nice bed time story about what happened in Crimea and Donbass? That was a bald faced invasion. Same thing the Russians pulled in Georgia. As a German friend pointed out to me something I had not before considered, Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe. It has vast hectares of excellent arable land and both Russia and the EU want access to that farmland to feed their people. Mr. Putin also wants very badly to reconquer the territories of the former USSR that gained independence after the USSR collapsed in an effort to recreate former Soviet glory. Remember he's KGB and a Soviet true believer. If you knew the training he went through you would understand this.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The United Nations observed an "alarming deterioration" in human rights in territory held by insurgents affiliated with the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic.[573] The UN reported growing lawlessness in the region, documenting cases of targeted killings, torture, and abduction, primarily carried out by the forces of the Donetsk People's Republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

@Asakaze

You think they are the good guys? Now i I guess you will criticize the UN as an instrument of the US even though Russia and China both have permenant veto's on the UN security council like the US does.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

It has vast hectares of excellent arable land and both Russia and the EU want access to that farmland to feed their people.

Actually, Russia is the largest exporter of wheat in the world. Apparently it manages to get by somehow without that breadbasket your friend told you about.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Peter14

Except for Russia

Proof? Any examples of Russians threats to invade?

Why should NATO disband?

Because its official reason to exist was the Soviet bloc "threat". When the Warsaw Pact disbanded the threat disappeared. But NATO not only remained, it also enlarged (in violation of promises it gave to Gorbachev in 90s), encroaching on Russian borders.

Russia still using the US as the bogey man

NATO still using Russia as the bogey man. First it was "Russian mafia", then "Russian hackers", now "the invasion of Ukraine".

Nato went in and brought an enforced peace to end the slaughter

Hitler also had excuses for his invasions, but he remained invader and murderer, just like NATO. Hitler's regime paid the price of its crimes at the Nuremberg trial. NATO should face the same trial for its crimes.

Iraq was about regime change to get Saddam out

If NATO considers its god-given right to change leadership in other countries then do not be surprised if other countries would also make leadership change somewhere.

Russia collaborated with the Nazi's until attacked in 1941

No more then Poland, UK, France and the U.S. did until attacked.

the deaths and destruction Russian allies cause in the Ukraine

Examples of these deaths and destruction? How many little Ukrainian kids were killed by Donetsk / Lugansk forces? Ukrainian nazi killed dozens, may be hundreds by now.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Poor Vladimir.

He so misses the days when Russia made twice as many people's lives miserable.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

This is Vladimir ginning up a reason to invade and distract his domestic population from the lousy COVID response and his general unpopularity.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

GdTokyo

This is Vladimir ginning up a reason to invade and distract his domestic population from the lousy COVID response and his general unpopularity

U.S / NATO have much more reasons to start a war to distract their populations from the lousy COVID response, general unpopularity, crumbling economy, unsustainable national debt and desperate wish to hold the world gegemony that is slipping away.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Asakaze

Proof? Any examples of Russians threats to invade?

Ukraine has been the number one target of Putin’s new-age imperial ambitions. He has consistently refused to recognize the legitimacy of Ukraine’s independence, stating Ukraine is not a “real country” and that it will always be part of the “Russian world.”

The first you will hear about a Russian invasion is the morning after it happens.

But NATO not only remained, it also enlarged (in violation of promises it gave to Gorbachev in 90s), encroaching on Russian borders.

Nato did no such thing. Nato approached no soviet block nation asking it to join them. That is encroachment. Former soviet states applied and asked to become members and they had to achieve certain goals in law and treatment of citizens before admittance. But turn that around and make it what it isn't and voila, you have encroachment.

NATO still using Russia as the bogey man. First it was "Russian mafia", then "Russian hackers", now "the invasion of Ukraine".

Breaking territory away from Georgia and the Ukraine in your books is a friendly neighborly thing to do. Not in anyone else's.

If NATO considers its god-given right to change leadership in other countries then do not be surprised if other countries would also make leadership change somewhere

Your ability to involve god in behaviour of others to justify Russia's bad behavior is pretty sad. Not buying into it.

No more then Poland, UK, France and the U.S. did until attacked.

Your funny, France, the UK and US didnt invade any nations together like the Nazi's did with Russia.

Best buddies in invasion of Poland. Shook hands in the middle and all.

Examples of these deaths and destruction?

Casualty estimates for and from both sides listed here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War

How many little Ukrainian kids were killed by Donetsk / Lugansk forces? Ukrainian nazi killed dozens, may be hundreds by now.

The Russian Nazi led Denetsk/Lugansk forces have killed all ages. It is war, started by Russia. Ask them how many they have killed. If you can ever get the truth from them that is.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Peter14

He has consistently refused to recognize the legitimacy of Ukraine’s independence, stating Ukraine is not a “real country”

How exactly he "consistently refuse"? What (where, when) did he say?

Nato approached no soviet block nation asking it to join them. That is encroachment. Former soviet states applied and asked to become members

Semantics. The bottom line is that NATO violated the agreement, new members joined it, and Russia got a direct military threat on its borders.

Breaking territory away from Georgia and the Ukraine in your books is a friendly neighborly thing to do. Not in anyone else's

LOL!!! "Anyone else" (NATO) started it, carving out the province of Kosovo out of Serbia. Why do you complain now when Abhazia and South Osetia proclaimed their independence?

Your ability to involve god in behaviour of others to justify Russia's bad behavior is pretty sad. Not buying into it.

Your ability to justify NATO's bad behavior is pretty sad. Not buying into it.

Your funny, France, the UK and US didnt invade any nations together like the Nazi's did with Russia

Poland did, invaded Czechoslovakia along with Hitler. And UK / France gleefully approved. Learn history.

The Russian Nazi led Denetsk/Lugansk forces have killed all ages

Proof? And watch where the real, not imagined, nazis are:

https://crimes-of-ukraine.ru/

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Asakaze

How exactly he "consistently refuse"? What (where, when) did he say?

Pay attention to the third paragraph.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-world-cannot-ignore-putins-ukraine-obsession/

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/

Semantics. The bottom line is that NATO violated the agreement, new members joined it, and Russia got a direct military threat on its borders.

Not semantics, fact. The EU were not going to ban membership of new states because Russia considers them part of the old USSR sphere. If they wanted to join and were suitable then they were granted membership. This does not immediately make them hostile to Russia but Russia would have us believe "your with them or your an enemy". It simply meant that old USSR states had concluded they were better off in the EU and or Nato than alone or with the Russians. Tough luck for Russia and it's old fashioned Authoritarian style. It's is now out of date and states have moved on.

LOL!!! "Anyone else" (NATO) started it, carving out the province of Kosovo out of Serbia.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the breakup of Yugoslavia happened years before Kosovo broke off from Serbia. A bloody conflict the world remembers all to clearly.

Poland did, invaded Czechoslovakia along with Hitler.

No, they didnt.

And UK / France gleefully approved. Learn history.

The breakup of sections of Czechoslavacia was agreed to by the UK and France in order to try to avoid war. Gleefully? Rubbish Russian propaganda.

Proof? And watch where the real, not imagined, nazis are:

https://crimes-of-ukraine.ru/

OMG truth about Russian atrocities from a .ru site? Your kidding right? Delusional.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-world-cannot-ignore-putins-ukraine-obsession/

A blog as a reference? Please..

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Russia annexed Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014 after the country’s Kremlin-friendly president was driven from power by mass protests and also threw its weight behind a separatist insurgency that broke out in Ukraine’s east.

By carefully not mentioning that the "Kremlin-friendly President" had just won the last free and fair election in Ukraine, and terming those who have refused to let a minority dictate to the majority as 'separatist insurgents' the article DELIBERATELY perpetuates the counterfactual narrative about the nature of the coup against a democratically elected government and the violent regime presently ruling a part of Ukraine and trying to force its rule on the rest of it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

A blog as a reference? Please..

It is posted above. Just read the thread.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Putin warns West: Moscow has 'red line' about Ukraine, NATO

Putin is right. The warmongering by NATO should stop.

For that matter, why does NATO even exist today? NATO was the counterpart to the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact is gone, as is the Sovjet Union. Todays NATO is interfering and warmongering in other countries, exactly a supposed "defense" organization should not do.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Putin is right. The warmongering by NATO should stop.

From the sources I read including TASS and China daily among others, I do not see any NATO warmongering but I do see plenty from Russia and Putin.

why does NATO even exist today? NATO was the counterpart to the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact is gone, as is the Sovjet Union.

NATO was a response of WWII and that the Western Nations would never let that just happen a third time there. Then the USSR installed puppet dictatorships in the Eastern states of Europe that it "liberated" from the Nazi's calling it the Warsaw pact. Just because Russia's alliance fell apart does not mean there is no need to stop working together. NATO lives on with the same purpose to ensure no more Europe wide wars. Russia still harbors the desire to be dominant in Europe. Keeping NATO relevant and needed. Russia after all holds the largest inventory of Nuclear weapons.

Todays NATO is interfering and warmongering in other countries, exactly a supposed "defense" organization should not do.

NATO goes where it is invited. Even when Russia has objections to it being invited into nations it does not control.

Russia has its own very different desires regarding Europe. Why should the West not also have it's own idea's for a free and peaceful Europe?

Why should Russia complain about NATO. Do you think if it had been NATO that disbanded, that Russia would have disbanded the Warsaw pact or would it have encouraged western European states to join it? I can answer that, can you do so honestly?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

NATO was a response of WWII and that the Western Nations would never let that just happen a third time there. Then the USSR installed puppet dictatorships in the Eastern states of Europe that it "liberated" from the Nazi's calling it the Warsaw pact. Just because Russia's alliance fell apart does not mean there is no need to stop working together. NATO lives on with the same purpose to ensure no more Europe wide wars. Russia still harbors the desire to be dominant in Europe. Keeping NATO relevant and needed. Russia after all holds the largest inventory of Nuclear weapons.

Starts out OK, then the wheels fall off. I love the part about “Russia still harbors”. Maybe you should work for the CIA or go on TV and make millions with your special powers.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Peter14

Pay attention to the third paragraph

I did. So: “is entirely the brainchild of the Soviet era, and was to a large extent created at the expense of historical Russian lands.” Yes, correct statement, most parts of present day Ukraine are historical Russian lands. Google for Kievan Rus', or Russian Empire of XVIII century. And the present day Ukraine was created by Soviet leaders in 1920s. So, what's wrong?

“I am convinced that true Ukrainian sovereignty is only possible in partnership with Russia,” Again, a correct statement. Russia was an extremely important market for the Ukrainian factories before the coup of 2014. And see how desperately Ukraine tries to preserve the gas transit. Millions of Ukrainians fled from their country to Russia or work there now. Sure partnership with Russia is very important for Ukraine. Putin is right. So, what's your point? Where are the "threats" you wrote about?

This does not immediately make them hostile to Russia but Russia

A military alliance immediately at your border is a threat, whatever nice words it says from time to time. It violated the previous agreement, can't trust it. And as NATO aggression against Yugoslavia demonstrated, it can attack for any reason it can fabricate. It is a fact.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the breakup of Yugoslavia happened years before Kosovo broke off from Serbia

I know. Sorry to burst your bubble but read carefully my previous post. My point is that if NATO helped Albanian separatists to carve Kosovo from Serbia then don't be disapponted that Abhazia and South Ossetia broke off Georgia.

No, they didnt

As I said, learn history, Poland invaded Czechoslovakia along with Hitler, as it willing ally:

http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm

was agreed to by the UK and France in order to try to avoid war

The 1939 agreement between the USSR and Germany was an attempt by Stalin to avoid a war, after UK and France refused all Soviet offers to form a united front against Hitler. UK and France gave up Czechoslovakia to Hitler in hopes he then would attack the USSR. All attempts to deny that are rubbish Western propaganda.

OMG truth about Russian atrocities from a .ru site? Your kidding right? Delusional

OMG truth from Atlantic Councel site? Your kidding right? Delusional.

On the link I provided are actual video footage. It does not matter what site it is. For any unbiased observer these videos are evidence of crimes.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Asakaze, in Peter's version of WW2, the country that fought the Germans basically alone at the beginning, fought the harder than the rest of the Allies combined (inflicted more casualties, destroying more military equipment, and forcing them to retreat faster and further than all the others) at a greater cost than the rest of the Allies combined (taking more casualties, being hit with more munitions, and seeing those taken prisoners by Germany treated more brutally) is somehow the willing partner of Germany, and the state that gave Germany as much help as possible (selling it supplies and equipment) deep into the war was the fiercest foe of Germany.

And the sad thing is that he's not alone in this. Russia did the most fighting, the US and the UK did the most bragging after the fighting was done.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Richard ,

Is that the same Russia that made a deal with the Nazis to jointly invade Poland? Too stupid to realize that the Nazis would betray them in their hunger for power?

is that the same Russia that was getting its ass kicked until the lend lease in which the United States gave its technically superior equipment?

That Russia? The one that would have lost without the Western Alliance?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

in Peter's version of WW2, the country that fought the Germans basically alone at the beginning, fought the harder than the rest of the Allies combined (inflicted more casualties, destroying more military equipment, and forcing them to retreat faster and further than all the others) at a greater cost than the rest of the Allies combined (taking more casualties, being hit with more munitions, and seeing those taken prisoners by Germany treated more brutally) is somehow the willing partner of Germany, and the state that gave Germany as much help as possible (selling it supplies and equipment) deep into the war was the fiercest foe of Germany.

Wow, again you are so far from the truth you invite ridicule. You dont speak for me and from the looks of it should not even speak for yourself.

the country that fought the Germans basically alone at the beginning,

The UK and the Commonwealth from 1939. Russia was fighting on the same side as the Nazi's through to June 1941.

fought the harder than the rest of the Allies combined

Awesome, who was that? Surely not the nation that had the largest number of troops surrender to Germany? Hundreds of thousands at a time, more than a few times. In the first year they were fighting the Germans and not other nations in Europe.

Are you talking about the nation that recieved so much military equipment from the US, Canada and the UK via convoys through deadly U-boats and battling freezing Atlantic weather to keep them in the fight?

Yes Russia did end up fighting their allies after they turned on them. Yes Russia lost more soldiers than any other nation to them. Yes Russia pushed them out and forced them all the way home. All while the US and UK were bombing them with thousand bomber raids both day and night.

Unlike Russian versions of WWII it was a combined effort in Europe and the Middle east and the Atlantic that took all the allies to win against Germany but Russia likes to credit itself and nobody else. Russia ignores the aid that allowed it to keep throwing troops and imported equipment along side its own equipment at the Germans.

Richard only knows the Russian version and not much else. He should take the time to read a little more and comment a little less.

Russia is so busy congratulating itself on it's survival they have no room to acknowledge anyone else's contribution.

I might have a little more respect for Russia's efforts if they had not invaded Poland with the Germans and then invaded Finland who had done nothing. Cant even own up to their own evil behavior. How do they expect to get respect when they cant even be honest about their history?

But yeah the UK, Commonwealth nations and the US and all of Europe were useless and really sat back while Russia did it all and saved the world. Thats what you want the world to believe. Even if it is completely false.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I am convinced that true Ukrainian sovereignty is only possible in partnership with Russia,”

Both conceited and wrong.

A military alliance immediately at your border is a threat,

Is it really? Are you sure? Europe held out the olive branch when the USSR collapsed. Russia was not interested.

And as NATO aggression against Yugoslavia demonstrated

Now your making things up. Yugoslavia had broken up into at least three states before NATO put the breaks on Serbia over Kosovo.

My point is that if NATO helped Albanian separatists to carve Kosovo from Serbia then don't be disapponted that Abhazia and South Ossetia broke off Georgia.

Hypocrite! You complain bitterly about NATO protecting Kosovo but say its perfectly ok for Russia to separate Georgia and the Ukraine from their territories. Well which is it, ok for both actions or not ok for either?

Serbia was massacring Albanians in Kosovo. Georgia was not do anything like that nor was the Ukraine. But I am sure you can make up something saying the were.

As I said, learn history, Poland invaded Czechoslovakia along with Hitler, as it willing ally

Yeah not. Poland gave ultimatum to Czech and they accepted it. No invasion by Poland.

The 1939 agreement between the USSR and Germany was an attempt by Stalin to avoid a war,

Russia did not want to be a German target so it joined it in invading Poland instead.

UK and France gave up Czechoslovakia to Hitler in hopes he then would attack the USSR.

A fake Russian assertion to deflect from the truth of German Russian cooperation. Where is the proof of your nonsense claim? No Russian sources. Neutral sources only.

On the link I provided are actual video footage. It does not matter what site it is. For any unbiased observer these videos are evidence of crimes.

We have seen Russian faked footage attempting to show Ukrainian forces shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane over the Ukraine and we all saw the real footage of Russian missile launcher that shot it down both entering Ukraine and leaving with less missiles on it.

Russia cant tell the truth, even though it is well known Russian forces fought Ukraine (not just "volunteers") So it had to cover up its crime and accuse the Ukrainians. Video and radio intercepts made it clear who was responsible as did the Dutch investigation.

OK we all know your a supporter of Russia. I am not. Fair to say neither will change their opinions.

I would say the majority who know WWII history will have their own opinions depending solely on their side of the Russo/West divide. We both believe we are right. That is one main reason for poor relations between East and West. And that is a little sad for us all.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The US and NATO adhered to the Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) treaty after the fall of the USSR. No NATO forces were stationed in any of the former Warsaw Pact nations and the US and NATO adhered to the reductions in NATO forces in western Europe negotiated in the treaty. The treaty did not forbid former Warsaw Pact from joining NATO or the EU but simply placed restrictions on the number and types of forces specific nations were allowed to keep in specific geographic areas of Europe. The former USSR was following the treaty too.

What upset all of this was the Russian invasion of Ukraine and annexation of the Crimea. Because NATO and the US were following CFE they did not have any forces available in any nation bordering Ukraine to counter the Russians. Russian forces in Ukraine were a violation of CFE and the treaty Russia, UK and US signed to remove the old USSRs nuclear weapons from Ukraine where Russia promised not to invade Ukraine once the nuclear weapons were removed and the US and UK guaranteed Ukraine's future independence. But due to adherence with CFE, the US and UK had no forces close enough to Ukraine to meet their treaty obligations to Ukraine and the Russians took large swaths of that nation. With Russia now in violation of CFE and the treaty to remove nuclear weapons from Ukraine, the US and NATO abandoned CFE. What else would you expect? Sit there and let Russia invade nations unopposed? NATO says publicly there would be "costs" if Russia again invades Ukraine. I suspect the US and NATO have been more specific what those costs might be in private.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Incidentally the CFE treaty was negotiated before the USSR imploded and the Warsaw Pact ceased to be. It was designed to limit the size of the armies in geographic proximity to the border of NATO and the Warsaw Pact so there weren't enough forces on hand to effect a successful invasion either way. Any movement to bring more forces to the border would be detected and give time for the other side to respond. The whole idea was to draw down both sides to the point where a war in Europe was unlikely. NATO and the US continued to respect that treaty even after the USSR and Warsaw Pact ceased to be.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@RichardPearce

Yes, I agree. His distorted view on history would be funny if it wasn't so sad and ignorant.

@GdTokyo

That Russia? The one that would have lost without the Western Alliance?

No. That Russia which destroyed 75 percent of Hitler's army, which untill 1944 fought Hitler almost alone (the Allies began to fight fully only in June 1944) and whithout which you would have spoken German now.

@Peter14

Both conceited and wrong

Why? I offered facts, you just empty words.

Europe held out the olive branch when the USSR collapsed

Broken promise not to enlarge NATO, the deployment of NATO infrastructure in ex-Soviet Baltic republics you call the olive branch?

Before NATO put the breaks on Serbia over Kosovo

Now you are making things up. NATO did not "put the breaks on Serbia", it helped Albanian separatists to steal a part of Serbian territory. Accomplice in crimes.

Hypocrite! You complain bitterly about NATO protecting Kosovo but say its perfectly ok for Russia to separate Georgia and the Ukraine from their territories

Can you be logical? First, NATO helped Albanians in 90s, right? Then if Russia, only after that, did the same for Abkhazia and Ossetia in 2008, why are you "bitterly complaining"? Who is hypocrite? NATO just took its own medicine. By the way, in Crimea there were no shooting, nothing like NATO aerial bombings. You are off the mark, as usual.

Yeah not. Poland gave ultimatum to Czech and they accepted it. No invasion by Poland

Google for what Churchill said about Poland and its role, how he likened Poland to a hungry hyena. Anyway, I can use your logic: USSR gave ultimatum to Poland in 1939 and they accepted it. No invasion by the USSR.

Georgia was not do anything like that nor was the Ukraine

Profound ignorance of facts. Georgia had a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing prior to 2008, since early 90s. And Ukrainian neonazi gangs killed dozens of people after the 2014 coup d'etat. Google for how they burned a hundred of people alive in Odessa, on May 2, 2014.

A fake Russian assertion to deflect from the truth of German Russian cooperation. Where is the proof of your nonsense claim?

A fake Western assertion to deflect from the truth about its intentions to push Hitler to attack the USSR. I can recommend quite a number of good books on WWII, but I'm not sure your obvious tendency to ignore facts you don't like would allow you to comprehend them.

Video and radio intercepts made it clear who was responsible as did the Dutch investigation

Oh, yes, the brilliant masterpiece of fakes by Bellingcat, desperate attempt to cover the ugly truth that Ukrainians shot down the plane. If Bellingcat was right, why the Dutch investigation is dragging its feet with the court? Why it refused all evidence, all the testimony the Russians offered?

The conclusion: I expected a duel of facts and logic here, but I see you are disarmed.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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