Rebels have taken away all plane crash bodies

If the Dutch are so angry about their people, then they should send it troops to retake those dead bodies. Those are citizens still and have every right to go home. If I was a family member I would be irate that none of the countries are demanding their people back. Australia, Malaysia, Holland etc should all be putting the screws to the Ukrainians if not militarily then hard line politically.

If you look at the actual flight tracks over Ukraine, you'll see the route is historically common one

Yes, I know it was a historically flight track before the civil war on Eastern part of the Ukraine. Nowadays Ukrainian air controlllers had to divert a flight route for the safety of passengers of civil airliners.C

NATO forces have had AWACS in the air 24/7 with the most sophisticated radar images in the world. If NATO says it came from separatists territory, then that's where it came from.

Please, let us avoid loud and pathetic terms such as "most sophisticated in the world" etc. The "most sophisticated devices in the World" didn't give to westerners any positive results in searching of first Malaysian jet four months ago. And I remember, when one representative of NATO insisted of the existence of WMD in Iraq. There must be a full-scale investigation. Any useful information from all sides, including Russian one, will be welcomed.

If it was 100 US citizens killed, than maybe some Russians end up getting nabbed off the street. CIA waterboard some answers out if them.

In that case you'd get burning US embassies and offices of US companies in Russian cities.

We know exactly what happened

You know nothing except a fact that Malaysian civil airplane was downed over the Ukraine. The investigation is coming up. When Kerry calls pro-Russian rebels as "drunk idiots", he needs to take a look at his degenerated horse mug in a mirror first.

@jerseyboy Even if conclusive evidence comes up what's anyone going to do? Europe isn't going to do squat because they don't like freezing to death over the winter. The United States isn't going to put their necks out without the Europeans putting some skin in the game. The Russians don't have very little exports outside petro products, guns and Vodka. You're not going to break the backs of Russia on that. China will happily take the petro products in case of an all out European ban.

There is no respect in Russia for the lives of those around, so no surprise there is none for those who perished either.

Will we ever know what happened?

motytrah -- we know exactly what happened. The only question is whether or not it was a Russian-trained terrorist who pushed the button, or an actual Russian trianer. Here's what Kerry had to say this morning:

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists," he said.

Video of an SA-11 launcher, with one of its missiles missing and leaving the likely launch site, has been authenticated, he said.

An Associated Press journalist saw a missile launcher in rebel-held territory close to the crash site just hours before the plane was brought down Thursday.

"There's a buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence," Kerry said. "We picked up the imagery of this launch. We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. We know the timing, and it was exactly at the time that this aircraft disappeared from the radar. We also know from voice identification that the separatists were bragging about shooting it down afterward."

Putin's fingerprints are all over this no matter what smoke-screens they try to create.

Rather they are digging graves for Kiev officials. Many questions have to be answered. The airplane was in Ukranian airspace, under control of Ukranians. They ordered pilots to change a standard flight path, to fly right through a zone of military conflict. That zone was infested by Ukranian war planes, there were Ukranian BUKs, deployed on the ground. And so on...

If you look at the actual flight tracks over Ukrane you'll see the route is historically a very common one. In fact over 80 Aeroflot planes took that route leading up to the incident. It could have very easily been a Russian plane shot down and I bet Russia wouldn't have been nearly so "restrained" about the situation if it was one of there commercial airplanes downed.

The media is quick to just to conclusion. The black boxes won't tell us much other than it wasn't mechanical. NATO forces have had AWACS in the air 24/7 with the most sophisticated radar images in the world. If NATO says it came from separatists territory then that's where it came from.

The idea that Ukraine would do it is ludicrous. Russian simply doesn't care what the world thinks. They have a second rate economy and a ton of internal problems. The more things blew up with the West the more nationalism they can leverage and the less people think about how crummy things have been under Putin. Besides, as long as Europe needs petro product from Russia they aren't going to do squat.

Is there any proof separatists blew up the plan. Not at this time. Did the Russians order the plane downed. Unlikely. Is the most likely and straight forward answer the separatists they blew it up thinking it was a military transport? Yes.

Will we ever know what happened? I doubt it. Sure, we'll know what kind of missile shot it down. But that still leaves a lot of finger pointing. If it was 100 US citizens killed then maybe some Russian's end up getting nabbed off the street. CIA waterboard some answers out of them. It's like the 80s all over again in Germany. But that's not what happened, and I don't think the Europeans have the stomach for what it's going to take to find the guy who pushed the button.

The same reporter who wrote the above article also wrote the black box article I linked above. An expanded version appears on Yahoo News.. Both versions say the rebels will be giving the black boxes to the International Civil Aviation Organization. http://news.yahoo.com/rebels-mh17-black-boxes-aviation-group-122858886--finance.htm They do not say how. Maybe the Moscow route is the safest all told.

Fear is the mind killer.

Reports say that the rebels are stopping international workers from getting full access to the crash site, and on top of that there are reports that one of the windshield wipers of the plane may not have been operation at the time of takeoff. Was the wiper sabotaged? Was it taken out to stop pilots from seeing the Ukrainian jets clearly before the missile launch killed them? We know weather can be bad on long flights.

Mock all you want. It will just makes you look dumber.

The separatists are really digging their own graves

Rather they are digging graves for Kiev officials. Many questions have to be answered. The airplane was in Ukranian airspace, under control of Ukranians. They ordered pilots to change a standard flight path, to fly right through a zone of military conflict. That zone was infested by Ukranian war planes, there were Ukranian BUKs, deployed on the ground. And so on...

It's very clear that the pro-Russian terrorists have no respect to the sanctify of human life.

People are working, they evacuate human remains from a crash site to refrigerators. They have just found "black boxes". By comparisin to them, you're wasting time by posting rather silly anti-Russian rubbish on internet forums. That's the difference.

Recent reports indicate that the black boxes are bound for Moscow.

Were they bound for Kiev, they would be broken or simply "lost" during a transportation. At least, in Moscow they will be officially given to ICAO representatives.

From the first article I quoted above: "Russian President Vladimir Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel agreed Saturday in a phone call that an independent commission led by the International Civil Aviation Organization should be granted swift access to the crash site." This does not sound like demonized Putin we have been getting here and from much of the western press.　

The second link seems broken at the moment. Recent reports indicate the black boxes are bound for Moscow.

It's nice to have links but some awkward facts remain: the rebels say they will hand the bodies over to a so-called international team yet they are denying the crash investigation team access. The black boxes have not been handed over yet. This goes against all protocols.

Reports say that the rebels are stopping international workers from getting full access to the crash site, and on top of that there are reports that one of the windshield wipers of the plane may not have been operation at the time of takeoff. Was the wiper sabotaged? Was it taken out to stop pilots from seeing the Ukrainian jets clearly before the missile launch killed them? We know weather can be bad on long flights.

We really need an impartial, objective international investigation.

@FizzBit

Thanks. The sources quoted and linked above come from American establishment news agencies. The last one from TPM is AP. Political hysteria has its own protocol. It only sees what it wants to. I wonder if those articles I linked will disappear as they do not conform to the US part line. I'm going to use that stuff about Hitler.

@Kabukilover

Nice links. But I think it's rather useless here. The majority have made up their minds without any real investigative facts. Very emotional responses, which is scary. It's funny, it's like some here has never heard the word disinformation or propaganda.

And here's how it's done. Notice how this article takes a 360 degree turn form talking about the bodies, then back to the blame game.

Earlier, the Ukraine government claimed it had reached a preliminary deal with the separatists to remove the bodies.

The U.S. has pointed blame at the separatists, saying Washington believes the jetliner was probably downed by an SA-11 missile from rebel-held territory and "we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel."

Hitler's Basic Principles of Communication were simple. Avoid abstract ideas - appeal to the emotions. Constantly repeat just a few ideas. Use stereotyped phrases. Give only one side of the argument. Continuously criticize your opponents. Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification.

@Laguna. I am ashamed to say that I am not familiar with the issue or Russian pirated software but if that will help the cause of making sure the downing of this aircraft does not get swept under the carpet then I am with you.

Everyone ought to read this article on Yahoo News before it goes down the memory hole: "Ukraine, rebels agree to remove crash site bodies." Link: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-rebels-agree-remove-crash-070251471.html;_ylt=A0SO8wTVxctTVjQAx_RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOWRqMDI1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDIyMF8x

One key quote: "The Ukraine government and the pro-Russia separatists who control the site of the Malaysian plane crash have reached a preliminary agreement to remove the bodies of the victims from the site, a senior Ukrainian official said."

And another: "Ukraine's emergency officials said Sunday that 196 bodies have been recovered in an operation involving nearly 300 volunteers and rebels."

This rare act of cooperation between enemies came fortunately before the decomposing bodies because a major health hazard. One can only hope this will lead to a permanent cease fire that the Russians, the French and the Germans have been pleading for.

You should also read this from TPM: "Ukraine Rebels Find Black Boxes, Hand Them Over To Aviation Group." Link: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/black-boxes-located-malaysian-plane

It's on the news here in the states this morning that Ukraine has released a tape reporting to have these terrorists in communication with Russia saying that "Moscow is very interested in the black boxes" and they should do everything they can to locate them. And, there is now video-tape from Reuters -- two-day old tape -- apparently showing one of the black boxes being removed by separatists from a field. Hat's off to David Cameron for his front-page editorial today. It is time for the West to recognize Putin and Russia for what they are, and treat them accordingly.

samwatters, I second that. Let's extend the boycott to such popular Russian consumer products as... well, pirated software?

No more talk. This (the carrying of bodies to secret location and refusing entry to assistance by the rebels) is proof-positive that Russia is involved. Let us common citizens around the globe use the same social media that put the spotlight on Putin and his band of animals (which, I want to emphasize, does NOT include the average Russian citizen) and demand things some of our spineless political leaders won't do.

1.) Boycott and protest Russia hosting of their World Cup whenever it may be. I suggest printing t-shirts, posters, etc. and selling them with all proceeds going to the families of the victims.

2.) Copy/record anything on YouTube that pertains to this crash/attack. Great amounts of files on Twitter, etc. have already by deleted. Got any? Share them. Makes sure this act is not swept under the carpet.

The world needs a "collaborative" effort to get to the bottom of this. And again, I am afraid the United States will be called upon to lead such an endeavor.

The disinformation war is well underway.

"While Kiev accused anti-government forces of virtually ransacking the crash site and transferring corpses to Donetsk , suggesting they were trying to “get rid of evidence,” local emergency workers were loading them on trucks on Saturday – to be sent to Mariupol, where they can be stored in refrigerators." from RT.

Anything to place any kind of blame on the local residents.MSM BS.

Good thing he also had a handy knack for identifying 1960s era Soviet military equipment.

Especially when that equipment is still under production today (in much more advanced form) and really, really looks like a mobile missile launcher. FordBronco, have you seen a photo of one of these? It's pretty hard to mistake for anything else but an awesome missile launcher. Regarding his "luck" in being in the right place: There's only one highway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. How many roads do you figure are on that backwater that could handle this load?

It is very clear the pro-Russian terrorists have no respect for the sanctity of human life. Not allowing access and information about where the bodies of their poor, innocent victims are being kept is unforgivable.

Putin is still blaming the Ukraine government for not making peace with the pro-Russian separatists for this despicable act of terrorism. Is he really the leader of the world's second biggest nuclear weapons arsenal?

The Separatists are really digging their own graves. You have the tweets, screen-captured, by the separatist leader bragging about how they shot down a Ukrainian military plane, then he quickly deletes them when it's revealed it was a civilian airliner. You have him saying the Ukrainian military shot down the plane on purpose with a jet-fighter, and now you have him saying it was a surface-to-air missile they used. You have him saying that the Ukrainian government had killed many of the passengers before the flight took off (and was shot down by a jet-fighter), and now they take away the bodies and hide them so no one can confirm anything. The guy has yet to explain how the Ukrainian government snuck into Amsterdam and killed a bunch of the passengers before it took off from there, of course. Putin can sit back and claim deniability because it was not Russia that shot the plane down, and pretend it wasn't Russian weapons that did it.

I feel so sorry for the loved ones of those lost, and cannot imagine the pain and outrage they must feel. Now not only have they lost people, they cannot claim the bodies as those responsible try to bury as much as they can to avoid culpability. It's so disgusting it makes me sick.

Can you imagine if any other nation was able to be tied to this incident, ie north korea , china, iran, palestine, isreal or any one else besides putin?

Against putin and his gang of mafia criminals the world is toothless.

It is, as we all know not the first time a civilian airliners has been shot down but in this day and age it is an absolute disgrace that others are not calling for blood.