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Putin promises to cooperate as blame for MH17 crash piles on Russia

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I sure hope Putin doesn't take too much more time to admit that it was a Russian missile fired by these pro-Russian separatists that killed these people.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

I sure hope Putin doesn't take too much more time to admit it was a Russuan missile

It was a Russian-built missile, fired by Ukranian operator. Sure, Putin will admit it.

-19 ( +5 / -24 )

"It was a Russian-built missile, fired by Ukranian operator."

Pro-Russian separatist Ukranians. And Putin also has to stop blaming the Ukranian government for this terrorist act.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

@Sidekick

It was a Russian-built missile, fired by Ukranian operator. Sure, Putin will admit it.

Not all of the Rebels are Ukrainian. A lot of Fighters from other Russian territories. Not to mention, the Rocket system used requires extensive training to fire. It all leads back to Russia. This will be the straw that breaks the camels back!

6 ( +10 / -4 )

People should have more respect for the dead (bodies).

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Russian missile, trained by the Russians and perhaps done by a Russian. Putin has more blood on his hands and as much as he can try and deny it, he is responsible for what has happened to these poor people. Disgusting that in this day and age he and others like him think they can pull the wool over the international communities' eyes.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

Not all of the rebels are Ukranians

True, but operators of BUK batteries or pilots of fighters-interceptors belong to Ukranian Armed Forces. Rebels have RPGs, AKs,RPKs and light MANPADs that can not hit the high-attitude airplane on 35 000 feet. Besides, Malaysian Boeing was flying in Ukranian airspace and was controlled by Ukranian air controllers. In short, Ukranian side is fully responsible for negative consequences. All rumours and insinuations that "one BUK system was seized by rebels, armed and activated" are childish. Besides one truck with missiles, the overall BUK battery consists of a tracking and aiming radar station and ammo unit, mounted on separate trucks.

-12 ( +5 / -17 )

@Sidekick:

"True, but operators of BUK batteries or pilots of fighters-interceptors belong to Ukranian Armed Forces. Rebels have RPGs, AKs,RPKs and light MANPADs that can not hit the high-attitude airplane on 35 000 feet. Besides, Malaysian Boeing was flying in Ukranian airspace and was controlled by Ukranian air controllers. In short, Ukranian side is fully responsible for negative consequences. All rumours and insinuations that "one BUK system was seized by rebels, armed and activated" are childish."

What sort of junk is this?? And Ukrainians occupied Crimea on behalf of Russia, of course.

11 ( +13 / -2 )

I don't understand why they are stealing something like money, cards,,, etc from bodies. I can't believe it. There is no law there. Dead bodies blown out mistakenly are nothing to do with the war between Ukrainians and Pro-Russians. Bodies should be quicly given to investigating organization.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

I wonder if Putin will ever have the decency to discipline his "Pro-Russian militiamen," these vile drunken thugs who are right now treating our dead with total disrespect, looting the crash site and interfering with vital evidence. They're doing wonders for Russia's international image.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

What sort of junk is this?

Actually, BUK anti-aircraft system is not that sort of junk. Ukranian Armed Forces got it in 90ies, after dissolution of the USSR.

And Ukranian occupied Crimea on behalf of Russia

Crimeans voted for independence of the Ukraine and for joining Russia. Now they have no a sort of civil war like it takes place in Eastern Ukraine and quite happy.

-11 ( +4 / -15 )

Crimeans voted for independence of the Ukraine and for joining Russia. Now they have no a sort of civil war like it takes place in Eastern Ukraine and quite happy.

Sidekick -- do you believe that that was a fair and democratic election, and that Putin did not deliberately use his special forces to plant the seeds of unrest in Crimea? Or did you not see or just chose to forget all those pictures of hundreds of troops with no insignias that suddenly appeared in Crimea, via Russia, and that Putin later himself admitted were Russina troops. Sorry, but he can't get away with bragging to his people that he successfully de-stabalized Crimea, and then claim innocence when the exact same strategy blows up in his face in Eastern Ukraine. But I guess that 150-vehicle long convoy of heavy weapons that the U.S. tracked going from Russia to Eastern Ukraine a couple of weeks back is just be be forgotten as well, right?

7 ( +11 / -4 )

I don't understand why they are stealing something like money, cards,,, etc from bodies. I can't believe it. There is no law there. Dead bodies blown out mistakenly are nothing to do with the war between Ukrainians and Pro-Russians. Bodies should be quicly given to investigating organization.

Easy. Many are poor, uneducated thugs - why else would you support a thug like Putin? - who have very little to call their own. Very little respect for life and for others. I don't agree with it but can easily understand why people in such positions loot and behave badly. This disgusting thing is that it is being "allowed" to continue by Putin when people are outraged at it.

I feel very sorry for those who lost loved ones and have to sit and listen to how their loved ones' body is being disrespected and treated. Russia should not be allowed to host the next World Cup over this to show the global impact this is having.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The Soviet Union made many plenty of thieves. Thats what the socialistic system taught you. How to sideline the rules. Now, these people do what they know. Get it for yourself because hard work was not the payoff.

For the bodies of the murdered victims. It is appalling and I hope the global community can see the evil ways of the perpetrators. Finger pointing can go on for now but the truth WILL come out and the guilty ones must pay for their terrible deed.

Putin as most of the world knows already is an evil sly ex KGB scum. He can end this chaos now if he chose but we see he is playing the blame game. Meanwhile 298 families are grieving and no doubt enraged with the handling of this by the Ukraine, Ukraine rebels, or the Russians! In time we will know the truth.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Putins presidential Plane that looks much like Boeing 777 was flying to Russia on the same path as the Malaysian jet. It is possible that Kiev was instructed by NATO but mistakenly downed the wrong plane. Since the Kiev continues to use the deadly air power over the rebel territory with aim to kill as many civilians it is possible that Ukrainian rebels try to shut what they suspect to be an Ukrainian attack plane. It is also possible that Kiev thought they where shutting down a Russian Radar plane. I think that Putin and Russia should simply keep out of this mess, It was all started by the USA and the western European evil empires and it should be sorted out by them. The fact that some Russians are privately involved is no less logical then the fact that the NATO power group is even more involved with money and personnel on the ground. Actually Russians are being cowards by watching the genocide and not getting involved.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

Putin promises

This guy has no credibility.. The world would be better off without this guy.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

If Japans Politicians had any brains they would use this western Russia bashing to their advantage. While it is unlikely that Japan will ever get the so called northern territories back there is a good chance It could talk the Russians in to some shared use deal. Japan could offer to share in development of the natural resources on and around the Islands while Russia would keep the military control so that their prime concern of American and NATO bases would be secured. By blaming Russia for taking back Crimea, part of Russia for over 200 years and almost totally Russian populated Japan is making its own demands unjustifiable. Only thing that keep Japan and Russia apart is Japans sucking up to USA and the western European financial bandits

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

@Sidekick:

"Crimeans voted for independence of the Ukraine and for joining Russia. Now they have no a sort of civil war like it takes place in Eastern Ukraine and quite happy."

Crimea was illegally invaded and continues to be illegally occupied by the enemy army. The same enemy tries to stir unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Russia historically moved population from inside Russia onto territories it invaded while oppressing and killing the native population. Will it continue forever? Presumably not. Over the last decades Russia retreated. Alcoholism, utter corruption, crime and other social diseases presumably will stall major expansion. Only those seriously brainwashed want to live in a Russia-style system. Russia currently takes out vengeance on Ukraine that they dared to free themselves from the clutches of the Russian empire. Hopefully, they free themselves for good in spite of the current losses.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Putins presidential Plane that looks much like Boeing 777 was flying to Russia on the same path as the Malaysian jet. It is possible that Kiev was instructed by NATO but mistakenly downed the wrong plane.

Zvonko -- that is pure nonsense. In fact, Putin was on the phone with Obama when word came to him of the shoot-down. Besides, Ukraine is NOT part of NATO anyway. Garbage like this is why a second anchor from the RT channel resigned over the weekend -- because she was sick-and-tired to telling lies.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Ukraine has tried to free itself from Russian yoke, as the casualties are mounting including MH17. Russia would be better without Putin who represent the old guard with shameless and thick skin KGB dictator, but do not count on it; since the grips on the mass are choking on average Russians. Yes comrade, for mother Russia and nationalism, Putin and his allies will not stop short for anything. U.N. should send troops to investigate the site immediately, since it is a crime against international community. Europe better find the alternative to Russian's oil and gas ASAP.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Ukraine has tried to free itself from Russian yoke

That made me laugh. So Ukraine frees it's self by submitting to another master in the EU. Tell me how Greece, Italy and Spain are doing again.

It's starting to sound reminiscent of what Adolph Hitler did to the Jewish people. Russia this. Russia that. All the while the biggest war monger on the planet is the US. Bizarre is the only word that comes to mind.

I choose to wait until the facts replaces the emotions.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Ukraine is an artificial creation of a part of Kiev Russ and it is the Kievan ruling family feudal split that resulted in the building of the eastern part of the country with Moscow as a center. Two main of the several Russian dialects divided further as the time went by and the name Ukraina or "the Border land" was not a separate state but simply an Oblast or a Kraina. It is only after the October revolution that Ukraine was given the real statehood. As far the claims that Russians are attackers through the history one should learn before talking: In 1571, the Crimean Tatars attacked and sacked Moscow, burning everything but the Kremlin. 1611, Polish–Lithuanian army invaded. During the Polish–Muscovite War (1605–1618) Stanisław Żółkiewski entered Moscow after defeating the Russians in the Battle of Klushino. The 17thsaw the liberation of Moscow from the Polish–Lithuanian invaders. And so on and so on. Now they are all crying against Russia But history says the Russians where under attack all the time. French, Brits, Germans in more recent times, and now USA with their allies has the plans to take russia a part and take over its resources.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

"U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said the missile system used to shoot down the Malaysia Airlines jet was “transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists”.

John Kerry's outraged?  He's the guy whose government has handed $121 BILLION to Israel - primarily to buy US weapons - since WW2, including $3.3 billion this FY.   And let's not mention military aid the US has handed to Egypt and other despot-run nations. 

Tmarie - "Russian missile, trained by the Russians and perhaps done by a Russian. Putin has more blood on his hands and as much as he can try and deny it, he is responsible for what has happened to these poor people."

Do you also think the USGOV has blood on its hands for supplying weapons to Israel that have been used to kill innocent Palestinians for decades?

Or the British, French, Australian, German and other govts doing the same thing? 

What Russia has apparently done is nothing new. Killing 300 innocent people in an airline is little different from having your weapons kill 300 innocents in a marketplace. BTW, I'm not defending Putin - just saying that what he has apparently done is common practice.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Zvonko and Sidekick appear to be from the same team that was sent to Crimea and to Eastern Ukraine. The fact that Ukraine was attacked and occupied at different times is no justification for the current aggression. Yes Russia continues to occupies lands of other nations. Most of the rest of the world, French, US etc. would to love to be able to forget that Russia, that dump, exists rather than invade it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Ukraine has tried to free itself from Russian yoke, That is as stupid as one can go. Russia knows that western evil empires need badly to find a new frontier, like in the days of drive to the west of America, rush for cheap natural resources in the wast sparsely populated land. So they are giving over 200 billion over 20 years to keep the next door neighbor afloat, I say giving not lending. They are doing it for their security but also out of compassion for the Slavic brothers with whom so many families are intermarried. While West has no valid reason except for the evil ones to be there Russians have all of them. And while the west is willing to tell the Ukrainians to fight and give them money for weapons Russians where actually feeding them. West never helps anyone they just put the yoke of debt around the necks of borrowers children and grandchildren, at least if you borrow from Mafia they may kill you but they will leave your children alone. Yanukovich was smart, he was trying to play both sides, the GI Joe that replaced him is a total looser.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

No one believes that Putin is sincere.

@bgood41

Ukraine has tried to free itself from Russian yoke, as the casualties are mounting including MH17. Russia would be better without Putin who represent the old guard with shameless and thick skin KGB dictator, but do not count on it; since the grips on the mass are choking on average Russians. Yes comrade, for mother Russia and nationalism, Putin and his allies will not stop short for anything. U.N. should send troops to investigate the site immediately, since it is a crime against international community. Europe better find the alternative to Russian's oil and gas ASAP.

That's the problem. Europe doesn't have the guts and the will to stand up to Putin. But Europe can't afford to take it up pipe anymore, unless they want Putin to take more and more, which he eventually will, since he's at the point in his political career where he fears NO ONE.

@fizzbit

It's starting to sound reminiscent of what Adolph Hitler did to the Jewish people. Russia this. Russia that. All the while the biggest war monger on the planet is the US. Bizarre is the only word that comes to mind.

I think it's bizarre that you would say something so laughable. Biggest war monger, please! No one is getting emotional, except the Russians for fear of being implicated, which technically they already are.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

jerseyboy Talking on the phone this days could be from a submarine, jet-plane or the comfort of a heated Toto washlet bowl. But Putin was not in his royal residence when it happened.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

This "event" took place in air space of Ukraine , controlled by Ukraine

Where Ukraine has all its military aviation and all its Buks !

The plane before crash was under control of Ukrainian air traffic controller

So - main responsible person - Pyotr Poroshenko !!!!

chocolate king tycoon and President of independent Ukraine !

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

If Putin has no fear, why does he lie?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

every country that sales weapons to others is a evil warmonger. Just like a window salesmen that paid kids to brake windows so they could sell new ones countries making arms for export are creating need for those arms by exciting conflicts between nations and within nations. In case of Ukraine it is the NATO warmongers that benefit because the taxpayers in their countries are paying for the weapons given to Ukraine. Russia is doing the same as the rest by selling the arms around the world, so re the Israelis, Swiss and of course the Western Europeans. Real scourge of this planet is my own race, the so called white man.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Only thing that Putin can be blamed for is for being a coward for not temporarily invading Ukraine and enforce the peace to save hundreds of civilians from being exterminated. If Americans can be justified in Iraq, in Libya and 10 years in Afghanistan, countries half a way around the globe with nothing in common with the USA than I think that it was Russian right and even more duty to get in to Ukraine and mop up the mess. But Putin is unable to do what he know should have been done. Instead Private Russian Volunteers are forced to secretly jump the borders and help their brothers on their own while Kiev is full of western money arms and mercenaries.

-14 ( +1 / -15 )

Putin and promises, yeah, right.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

duncanpa There is an abundance of anecdotes on him, that Russians repeat themselves, on how dumb he was, besides corrupt.

1 He was Ukrainian president

So Russians never repeat anecdotes 'bout him

2 Eh yes - Ukraine is VERY corrupt counry !

BeforeYanukovich with Yanukovich and after Yanukovich

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Putin was the one who supplied the high-tech missiles to the Ukraine separtists. It's like giving a drunk the keys to your car and telling them to drive safely.

Putin was and is fully responsible and should have warned the int'l community not to fly near this area knowing what he knew.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Sure, the rebels shot down MH17. This is most likely true, but let's put it into context first, shall we? Context is a game changer. First of all, the Ukrainian military was using fighter jets against pro-Russian seperatists who didn't have the same capabilty. Most of the strikes killed innocent civilians (women and children). I have seen the uncensored video footage. So the seperatists ask for a defence against this threat and received the missiles that could do the job of up to 33,000 feet. The Ukrainian government in Kiev knew about this. So air traffic control in Ukrain redirected the flight of MH17 from 200 kilometers away from its original flight path and asked them to decend to 32,000 feet when they were at 34,000 feet previously. Well people, you can figure it out from here. If that flight was not sent into harms way by the Ukrainian air traffic controllersd, this would not have happened. So they are just as complicite as the Russians and rebels. In my mind they are even more guilty because they knew this might happen.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Hello Bass

I think it's bizarre that you would say something so laughable. Biggest war monger, please! No one is getting emotional, except the Russians for fear of being implicated, which technically they already are.

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I would question your rational though. If you are an (ex?) reporter as you say, then you should be the first person to smell the difference between a rational response (looking at the facts), to an emotional one (reacting with no sound investigation and parroting the MSM).

Hello Olege

does ANYBODY in US (not including officials) really belive that bad Muslims from some fabulous faraway country with palaces camels and oil derricks come in US took huge modern airliners by brute force and attack twin towers?

Unfortunately, yes. Most of "us" Americans have buried their heads in the sand. They dare not take a look at a building 7 video of the Twin Towers as it implodes and free falls in 10 seconds. It takes months to plan and install demolition charges to bring a building of that size straight down.

Jethro Tull said it better!

Let me tell you the tales of your life of

your love and the cut of the knife

the tireless oppression

the wisdom instilled

the desire to kill or be killed.

Let me sing of the losers who lie in the street as the last bus goes by.

The pavements are empty: the gutters run red -- while the fool toasts his god in the sky.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

However, top Russian officials and state media have suggested that Kiev’s new leaders staged the attack to blame the rebels.

When I read this I couldn't help but think of North Korea. Isolated with the media controlled by the government, able to say whatever they want since there are no consequences from the people. It's a road Russia is starting to go down.

The problem with being a dictator is that other countries start to view you that way. You might be able to rule your own country like a king but the big gains are made in the international community. That's probably the internal debate Putin is having at the moment.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Do you also think the USGOV has blood on its hands for supplying weapons to Israel that have been used to kill innocent Palestinians for decades?

Yes and have said as much on threads in recent days. Next question...

0 ( +1 / -1 )

stormcrow Putin was the one who supplied the high-tech missiles to the Ukraine separtists.

You can prove it ?

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Just to clarify.

The BUK system (and yes, it's a multi-vehicle system consisting of a radar vehicle, a missile battery vehicle and a command vehicle) is not a Russian built system.

It was built in the Soviet Union, of which both Russia and Ukraine were members.

This system is widely available from arms dealers on the black market and was even used by the Georgian army against Russia in 2008 to down 4 Russian aircraft.

Ukraine of course, also has the BUK system in its arsenal. But they told us that they didn't use it this time so I guess we have to just believe them even though they provided no evidence whatsoever.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

And I thought the Netto Uyoku were strong on this site - now we have their counterparts in Mother Russia offering far flung conspiracy theories and typical Soviet era disinformation.......

Does anyone else notice any similarities between this incident and the 1983 Soviet shoot down of Korean Air 007? Once again, we have Russia or Russia-backed extremists shooting first and asking questions later - and the result in both cases is mass murder...........

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Now that all the black boxes and bodies have been confiscated and evidence covered up? Thanks, Putin!

1 ( +4 / -3 )

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I would question your rational though. If you are an (ex?) reporter as you say, then you should be the first person to smell the difference between a rational response (looking at the facts), to an emotional one (reacting with no sound investigation and parroting the MSM

I do. I smell a BIG fat rat sitting in the Kremlin stressing and swearing out on how to cover his tracks. There is NOTHING emotional going on, the facts are already there. The Black boxes and the bodies are in Russian possession or their surrogates or do you think it was the US that purposely shot the plane down to blame and frame Putin? Why on Earth wouldn't Moscow allow the NTSB to investigate the crash site? Please give me your spin on that. I'd love to hear it.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Smith - "Now that all the black boxes and bodies have been confiscated and evidence covered up? Thanks, Putin"

Q: If Putin knows he's guilty, what makes you think he - or anyone in his position, for that matter - would leave all the evidence sitting around on the ground just waiting for investigators to find it and pin him to the wall?

Stalling investigators and saying he'll cooperate when he really isn't - it all makes sense,.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

To be fair the Russians have brought up some interesting questions, all yet to be answered:

Why is it that the billboard in the background of the purported video of the BUK system from a suburb of Kiev?

Why haven't the Ukrainians provided the full flight data info from their radar systems of flight MH17?

Why is the US so quick to judge? Eventually an international investigation will be complete and a finding will be announced. Why not wait until then? When the US Navy shot down an Iranian civilian 747 the mantra was wait wait wait, calm down, let's investigate thoroughly.

The best and fairest thing to do is to wait until a thorough, complete, international investigation is concluded. If the Russian separatists are found to be at fault then let them bear punishment. But there has to be an investigation first.

Let us not repeat the mistake of the Iraqi invasion where thousands of innocents lost their lives because of trigger happy politicians acting on haphazard conclusions and best guesses.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

@Olegek

Do you think it was somebody else? Perhaps a rogue element Putin doesn't know about? Interesting possibility.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

To be fair the Russians have brought up some interesting questions, all yet to be answered:

Why is it that the billboard in the background of the purported video of the BUK system from a suburb of Kiev?

Well, in that case, it eliminates Russia or their surrogates as the possible perpetrators, right?

Why haven't the Ukrainians provided the full flight data info from their radar systems of flight MH17?

How do you know they haven't or that the US, the CIA and the NTSB don't already have a lot of these data?

Why is the US so quick to judge? Eventually an international investigation will be complete and a finding will be announced.

How if the Russians won't allow the NTSB to do their job? It's NOT Russia's job to investigate crash sites.

Why not wait until then? When the US Navy shot down an Iranian civilian 747 the mantra was wait wait wait, calm down, let's investigate thoroughly.

The US NEVER denied shooting the Iranian Flight 655 also, the plane never responded and identified itself, attempts were made, nothing happened and when asked by the air traffic controllers, they couldn't determine if the flight was a friendly or a hostile.

The best and fairest thing to do is to wait until a thorough, complete, international investigation is concluded. If the Russian separatists are found to be at fault then let them bear punishment. But there has to be an investigation first.

Agreed! So then why won't the Russians allow the NTSB to do their job?

Let us not repeat the mistake of the Iraqi invasion where thousands of innocents lost their lives because of trigger happy politicians acting on haphazard conclusions and best guesses.

I don't know how Iraq fits into this conversation or topic. Not relevant.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Hysteria is full mindless bloom today. Accusations based on no real evidence. That is how lynch mob start and how often innocent people get turned into strange fruit. That is how Israel's rape of Gaza got started.

All right, boys and girls, let us deconstruct what has been said and done.

Who shot down the plane, if indeed it was shot down? We do not as yet know. There is a tape purportedly of rebels talking about shooting down the plane. it needs to be authenticated before it becomes admissible evidence.

Assuming it was shot down with missile launcher, how do we it was given to Ukrainian rebels by the Russians? We have zero evidence to go on at the moment. That's right, zero. We do not yet know where the weapon is and where it came from.

Supposing the plane was shot down by rebels, did they intend to shoot down a airliner? That is was there malice aforethought on the part of the rebels (and Russians if they were involved)? In plain language did they agree to out a passenger jet and did they tell Putin and did Putin say it was great idea? Or was this a miscalculation? You need to consider these questions in assessing guilt.

As for what happened at crash site if has been reported that some cooperation was established between the rebels and Kiev in collecting the bodies and putting them in cold storage. Link: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-rebels-agree-remove-crash-070251471.html;_ylt=A0SO8wTVxctTVjQAx_RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOWRqMDI1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDIyMF8x

In cases like this, outrage is often generated more by who did it and not what was done. In 1983 the Soviets shot down a Korean airliner, not knowing what it was. The reaction generated by Reagan and the Western media was unsparing. This was not the case in 1984 when the Americans shot an Iranian airliner that was traveling on its regular route in broad daylight. Reagan dismissed this as an understandable error.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

For those blinded by the MSM presstitute propaganda, here's an antidote:

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

How if the Russians won't allow the NTSB to do their job?

Could you please explain what jurisdiction the NTSB has in Ukraine exactly?

International law requires that the state in which in the incident happened is responsible for the investigation. In this case the Ukraine or the Donetsk People's Republic, since two parties lay claim to this territory.

Currently the Donetsk People's Republic physically controls the area so by international law, they are responsible for the crash site, like it or not.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Hysteria is full mindless bloom today. Accusations based on no real evidence. That is how lynch mob start and how often innocent people get turned into strange fruit. That is how Israel's rape of Gaza got started.

What lynch mob? Are the Black Boxes in the possession of the NTSB? And what does Gaza attacking Israel have anything to do with this, that's a different thread you need to go to.

All right, boys and girls, let us deconstruct what has been said and done. Who shot down the plane, if indeed it was shot down? We do not as yet know. There is a tape purportedly of rebels talking about shooting down the plane. it needs to be authenticated before it becomes admissible evidence.

"IF?" So you think the plane just fell out of the sky because of some mechanical failure, a bird strike perhaps or the Americans trying to blame Vlad?

Assuming it was shot down with missile launcher, how do we it was given to Ukrainian rebels by the Russians? We have zero evidence to go on at the moment. That's right, zero. We do not yet know where the weapon is and where it came from.

Oh, yes, we do. There are already spy satellites from US intelligence that show the Buk truck launcher that fired the actual missile that fled shortly after the plane was shot down and fled the scene with at least two of its rockets missing at the moment and time of the plane falling, also there is audio evidence of the surrogates that shot the plane down reporting back to Moscow. That audio tape was played all over the world, damning evidence, oh, yeah!

Supposing the plane was shot down by rebels, did they intend to shoot down a airliner? That is was there malice aforethought on the part of the rebels (and Russians if they were involved)? In plain language did they agree to out a passenger jet and did they tell Putin and did Putin say it was great idea? Or was this a miscalculation? You need to consider these questions in assessing guilt.

I don't believe anyone really wanted to shoot it down, but it happened, it was a major blunder and someone decided to take it upon himself to shoot an airliner down but the SA-11 Buk system has a fail safe switch built into the system that can identify a commercial airliner, also the airliner itself emits a signal telling all radar systems what it is. So there should not have been ANY mistaken identity.

As for what happened at crash site if has been reported that some cooperation was established between the rebels and Kiev in collecting the bodies and putting them in cold storage.

Now one of the trains carrying the bodies, there is NO gas and now the cooling system is shut down, so they are NOT in cold storage anymore, but decaying in the hot humid sun.

In cases like this, outrage is often generated more by who did it and not what was done. In 1983 the Soviets shot down a Korean airliner, not knowing what it was. The reaction generated by Reagan and the Western media was unsparing.

And unlike Obama, Reagan made sure, that Russia was playing a VERY dangerous game. He was resolute, stern and straight forward.

This was not the case in 1984 when the Americans shot an Iranian airliner that was traveling on its regular route in broad daylight. Reagan dismissed this as an understandable error.

Which it was and which the airliner refused to identify itself.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

stormcrow @Olegek Do you think it was somebody else?

Sorry - Putin is not responsible for Ukraine....

Ukraine collapsing yeh

civil war at full scale

thousands of people are killed...

But this is not Putin's fault

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Coal miners brought in to look for bodies, the bodies sitting in the sun on the back of trucks and loaded into trains that are then moved to lord knows where. Disgusting.

Video of a launcher moving from Russia into the area a few days before. What about the conversations bragging they did it? For the people who are defending Russia, get a clue. The world would be a much better place without a certain leader...

Why have the black boxes not been given to anyone else yet? Experts are there and willing to take them.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Kabukilover: "Hysteria is full mindless bloom today. Accusations based on no real evidence. That is how lynch mob start and how often innocent people get turned into strange fruit. That is how Israel's rape of Gaza got started."

Wrong thread.

Kabukilover: "Who shot down the plane, if indeed it was shot down? We do not as yet know."

Yes we do. It was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a Russian-made missile. The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Kabukilover: "Assuming it was shot down with missile launcher, how do we it was given to Ukrainian rebels by the Russians? We have zero evidence to go on at the moment. That's right, zero. We do not yet know where the weapon is and where it came from."

Again, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. Check it out, Kabukilover.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Again, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. Check it out, Kabukilover.

Hey Serrano, do you ever watch those Nat Geo Channel shows on plane disasters? It takes months and years to finally get to the bottom of what happened. Yet, you have already surveyed the the area and formed your own opinion. Good for you, you are a crash disaster super hero! Just like a Hollywood movie.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

If the evidence is overwhelming please share it with us. Overwhelm us with details and citations.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

IATA rules are very clear.

The country that authorizes a particular flight path over its territory is responsible for the safety and security of that airspace.

In this case, the Ukrainians authorized a flight over an area which they clearly do not control, which constitutes gross negligence on their part.

Yes we do. It was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a Russian-made missile. The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

I'll have to call you on that. Factual error, the missile is not Russian made, it's Soviet made and both Ukraine and Russia as well as 13 other countries were members of the USSR.

What evidence, do you mean the grainy videos of a SA-11 truck rolling through the suburbs of Kiev and some audio tapes provided by Ukrainian Intelligence. Do you have any idea how easy it is to fabricate audio in this day and age.

Isn't it curious also that the Ukrainian authorities suddenly have the ability to intercept communications among the separatists. If they have this ability then how could the separatists possess an entire BUK system without the Ukrainians knowing?

I haven't seen any evidence except for material that has been provided by Ukrainian intelligence services and a few vague references to unverifiable SNS sites.

Yes, the US said that their satellites detected a lock from a SAM system, but the US has NOT said who that SAM system belonged to. Why not?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Fizz

Hey Serrano, do you ever watch those Nat Geo Channel shows on plane disasters? It takes months and years to finally get to the bottom of what happened. Yet, you have already surveyed the the area and formed your own opinion. Good for you, you are a crash disaster super hero! Just like a Hollywood movie.

This is like a bad Hollywood movie, like one of Michael Moore's terrible accidents! So you think Russia has the complete authority? So if the Russians have jurisdiction, why wouldn't they allow the people that do this for a living, examining crash sites? Couldn't they both coordinate their efforts and work together? I already know why?...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Putin is a modern day "Dr. Evil". This guy's persona is straight out of a comic book!

0 ( +3 / -3 )

but the SA-11 Buk system has a fail safe switch built into the system that can identify a commercial airliner, also the airliner itself emits a signal telling all radar systems what it is. So there should not have been ANY mistaken identity.

True,

Of course if someone fiddled with the Boeing transponder at Amsterdam airport to have the plane emit the signal of an Antonov-26 then that would explain this whole mess now wouldn't it.

But that's just crazy talk, everybody knows that Malaysian Airlines has a rock solid reputation with the transponders on their Boeings...

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

but the SA-11 Buk system has a fail safe switch built into the system that can identify a commercial airliner, also the airliner itself emits a signal telling all radar systems what it is. So there should not have been ANY mistaken identity.

True, but if you are knowledgable about this sytem, you would know that the radar attached to the launcher, does not have this capability. Only a second radar system used in conjunction with the launcher has it. And since it is highly likely that this launcher was being used on a stand-alone basis, this kind of tragedy is completely predictable.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I like the idea that the "msm" is not to be trusted, but Pravda or some internet dude's conspiracy website? Good to go.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

So is the objective of the minus (-) crowd to find out the truth of what caused this disaster or to get at Putin? As a fairly frequent flier to Europe I am more interested in former. The minus people I've so far are long on vituperation and very short on facts. In fact minus (-) on facts. There have been no serious challenges to anything I've said.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Come on people, Putin is NOT that bad, he is ONLY human and no human is PERFECT, so he is supporting a bunch of drunken hooligans in the Crimea part of the Ukraine and after too much VODKA and COCAINE they mistakenly blow up a MALAYSIAN civilian jet, you know this could have happened to anybody. Anybody with military training and BUK missiles supplied and manned by??? Yes, by our imperfect dictator of Russia, Vladimir PUTIN! So please do not be too harsh on the old guy, give him a few years and PUTIN will hope that we all forget about his attack against innocent civilians flying in that Boeing jet by Malaysia Airlines. RIP

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

There's now evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet made an aggressive approach on MH17 moments before the explosion.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@Olegek

You're changing the subject. The point was whether Putin has been supplying the Ukraine pro-Russian rebels with very high-tech, very dangerous missile systems, which you seemed to disbelieve and deny. That's about right, isn't it?

I compared Putin to a car owner handing over his keys to a drunk and telling him to drive safely, and that Putin was responsible for not warning the int'l community to keep all commercial airlines out of that region since Putin knew that these rebels were armed with such powerful and sophisticated missile systems. Thus, Putin failed in his duty to warn the int'l community that he (Putin) was providing such powerful missile systems to the pro-Russian rebels making Putin fully responsible. Just like the car owner handing over the keys of his car to a drunk and telling him to drive safely. Does that refresh your memory as to what my previous post was about?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

There's now evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet made an aggressive approach on MH17 moments before the explosion.

John, I don't suppose you have a link to any source providing this information, do you? I could claim that "there's now evidence that the mighty hand of Thor was apparent MH17 moments before the " but it won't do anyone any good unless it's linked to a site which also hawks penny stocks (in which case we can ignore it) or to one whose income is from reporting the news, in which case we might pay attention to see how it pans out.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Putin may have 'said all the right things' but I highly doubt he'll do the right things.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

John Galt:

There's now evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet made an aggressive approach on MH17 moments before the explosion.

John, very good point. Indeed - there is a detailed press conference from Russian Ministry of Defence with objective data, about this Ukrainian fighter and location of Ukrainian Buk SAM. And Ukrainian side said "no our planes, and no our Buk SAM in the area". Clear lies.

Here is the press conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

Yet to see similar radar data from Ukraine. Hope, more to come from Russia....

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

There's now evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet made an aggressive approach on MH17 moments before the explosion.

Let me guess... the evidence was supplied by Russia, right? Anything to take the heat off the Russian war machine, ne? And please, for the rest of us ignorant people, define "aggressive approach". If all it means is that the fighter was heading on a course that would intersect MH17's course at some point, then there are passenger jets making "aggressive approaches" to other passenger jets every single day of the year.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Kabukilover:

Q:

So is the objective of the minus (-) crowd to find out the truth of what caused this disaster or to get at Putin?

A: "...propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have."

Paul Craig Roberts

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Zvonko

If Japans Politicians had any brains they would use this western Russia bashing to their advantage. While it is unlikely that Japan will ever get the so called northern territories back there is a good chance It could talk the Russians in to some shared use deal.

Do you really think this is the best time to even fathom the thought?! The whole world is laser-focused on seeing justice served and you're proposing a land deal?! Bit insincere, isn't it?!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There's now evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet made an aggressive approach on MH17 moments before the explosion

Fadamor:

Let me guess... the evidence was supplied by Russia, right?

Are you really expecting it to come from Ukraine!? (Keep in mind, a good doctoring takes time)

Here are some interesting details:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Can we really trust Putin’s words these days ? The answer is a big “no” , to begin with, Russia has acute national interests in Ukraine, and he will try anything in his power to mess up that country as a buffer zone in ordert to exert Russian influence there.

Speaking of lies, Last March, Putin blatantly denied Russians involvements in Crimea, but intel communities have provided credible evidences to prove he was lying then and now.

In short, what matters most are actions, not empty words full with piles-up.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Nutjobs are free to discuss the accident on internet message boards, but that's far away from the real world. And in the real world Russia will have to cross paths with the Netherlands on a daily basis. It won't be pretty. Putin can get away with anything in his own country because he does not operate under the rules of a democracy, but the wall ends there.

What will happen the next time he wants to travel to Europe?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Who shot down the plane, if indeed it was shot down? We do not as yet know. There is a tape purportedly of rebels talking about shooting down the plane. it needs to be authenticated before it becomes admissible evidence.

...and of course, nothing the world community does will meet YOUR definition of having the tape "authenticated". The United States has declared the original audio recording supplied by Kiev as authentic. The new recording has not been authenticated yet.

Assuming it was shot down with missile launcher, how do we it was given to Ukrainian rebels by the Russians? We have zero evidence to go on at the moment. That's right, zero. We do not yet know where the weapon is and where it came from.

Surveillance satellites recorded the missile launch point and that location was in rebel-held Ukraine. Kiev has stated that none of their BUK mobile launchers were abandoned to the rebels. Unless you're going to try and tell us that the missile launcher was still under Ukrainian control and the launcher had somehow been allowed into rebel-held territory, allowed to set up, and fire the missile at an airliner well above the threat zone, that leaves only one possibility for where the launchers came from. I say "launchers" because three BUK launchers were recorded (one with a missile missing from the launch rail) leaving Ukraine and entering Russia after MH17 was downed. It's clear to anyone but those who refuse to open their eyes that Russia supplied the BUK launcher system that downed MH17. While we don't know EXACTLY where the launcher system currently is, we know it's in Russia. As Kiev can account for all their BUK launchers, that means we also know where the launcher that shot down MH17 came from.

Supposing the plane was shot down by rebels, did they intend to shoot down a airliner? That is was there malice aforethought on the part of the rebels (and Russians if they were involved)? In plain language did they agree to out a passenger jet and did they tell Putin and did Putin say it was great idea? Or was this a miscalculation? You need to consider these questions in assessing guilt.

I have no doubt that the downing of MH17 was a mistake. Neither Russia nor the rebels gain any benefit from downing a civilian airliner. I also highly doubt a trained Russian battalion was manning the launcher system - at least not at the command level where the decision was made to launch at an aircraft well above any conceivable threat altitude. I'm sure the people who gave the order to launch were rebels who had read that other units had downed Ukrainian planes recently and wanted to add their unit to the glory. The whole incident smacks of an amateur acting as the unit commander. Certainly not the kind of thing you'd expect from an actual military unit from Russia.

So why blame Russia for this tragedy? The reason Russia bears a major part of the blame is they performed the equivalent of handing a five-year-old child a fully loaded AK-47 and told them to go play with it at school. After the five year old is finally disarmed, who do you assign the most blame to - the five-year-old, or the person who gave them the weapon way beyond the child's capability to use responsibly?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@SuperLib

Nutjobs are free to discuss the accident on internet message boards, but that's far away from the real world. And in the real world Russia will have to cross paths with the Netherlands on a daily basis. It won't be pretty. Putin can get away with anything in his own country because he does not operate under the rules of a democracy, but the wall ends there

Hitler's Basic Principles of Communication were simple

Continuously criticize your opponents

Pick out one special "enemy" for special vilification

You are so fine tuned to the perfection of propaganda. So we are "nut jobs" because we want to wait for the truth, if there is one. You, spunky pony, are ready to call anyone a criminal as long as CNN said it first.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

stormcrow @Olegek You're changing the subject. The point was whether Putin has been supplying the Ukraine pro-Russian rebels with very high-tech, very dangerous missile systems,

No I'm not

I'm writing from Russia : what is Russia ? - stable state with respectful authorities , economy which really

works and grows and so on

And military budget grows each year

One of the main problem for Russian - where to park new car...

A REAL big problem

What is Ukraine ?

Failed state ... economy collapsed , political sytem collapsed...

Civil war requires more and more new victims....

Human life is cheap in modern Ukraine...

By the way - in year 1991 standard of life in Ukraine was higher than in Russia 15 -20 % at least

Before second Maindan in anno 2013 it was 3-4 times lower than in Russia

Today - the game is over.... it is no such thing as Ukrainian economy...

And Ukraine have a huge debts.....

Why I explain all this ?

Russia has no reasons to do something really strange - because of 2 cars in the family and holiday abroad

Ukraine has nothing to loose - this winter will be very hard time in Ukraine : no fuel not enough food ....

So today Ukrainian governement each week kill 200-300 its own citizens ....

Today Ukraine is like Egypt or Libya...

Human life is cheapest thing...

Ukrainian government didn't control center of it's own capital

But they have powerful Soviet weapons and Soviet nuclear power stations

Don't cry for Rusia pray for Ukraine

Only God can save this country ....

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

So why blame Russia for this tragedy? The reason Russia bears a major part of the blame is they performed the equivalent of handing a five-year-old child a fully loaded AK-47 and told them to go play with it at school. After the five year old is finally disarmed, who do you assign the most blame to - the five-year-old, or the person who gave them the weapon way beyond the child's capability to use responsibly?

Fadamor -- spot on. In criminal law terms, Russia might not get convicted of murder, but they would surely be charged as an accessory. And now possibly conspiracy to obstruct justice.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@Oleg,

I'm writing from Russia : what is Russia ? - stable state with respectful authorities , economy which really works and grows and so on And military budget grows each year One of the main problem for Russian - where to park new car... A REAL big problem

Oleg, I've traveled to Russia three times in the last decade. Russia's REAL big problem isn't parking, it's the rampant corruption in the government that means you can't get ANYTHING done without first bribing the appropriate official(s). "Respectful authorities"?! I had a good belly laugh at that bit of fiction. Thanks for bringing a bit of surreal humor to my day.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

AP story dateline "Jul 17, 2014, 10:52 AM ET" (14:52 UTC). Ukraine air traffic control's loss of contact with MH-17 is noted as 14:15 GMT on wikipedia.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-24598894

An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

Yup, and he just happened to be there, in that little town, just before a major international event, so he could report this information to the world.

And lucky for us, he has a knack for identifying make and models of SAM missile launchers.

I kind of doubt that the separatists would allow AP reports to stroll around their arms caches anyways.

What's the name of this "AP" reporter by the way?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Olegek

I won't deny many of the points you've laid out. The Ukraine is a pretty messed up place like several other countries you pointed out.

Since the elections in the Ukraine have been refuted by both sides regarding their legitimacy, wouldn't it make sense for the Russians and the UN to organize free elections in the Ukraine to determine the direction the majority of Ukrainians wish to take their country?

At the same time, I still think that Putin should've warned the international community not to fly near the region where the Malaysian airline was shot out of the sky. Putin was fully aware of how powerful the surface to air missiles he handed over were and bears as much responsibility as the rebels who aimed, set and pushed the buttons firing its deadly payload.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet)

An astute reader will catch that there are actually two sightings being reported by the unnamed AP reporter.

The first sighting of the tanks on Thursday in Snizhne at the gas station.

The second sighting of the purported BUK system "in" the town.

Notice that when referring to the sighting of the BUK system we're not given a time, date or even rough location. The reporter didn't even say if the BUK system belonged to the Ukrainian military or the separatists.

Why the total vagueness when referring to the sighing of the BUK system, especially when the sighting of the tanks in the preceding sentence was so clear and detailed?

Doesn't this reporter carry a camera around anyways? What kind of reporter is this?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I see Ron Paul is defending Russia and slamming western leaders for spreading "propaganda," lol.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The Soviet Union made many pkenty of thieves

And the USA made many plenty of uneducated hypocrites.

This guy has ho credibility

...among viewers of Fox News and CNN.

The world would be better without this guy.

The world would be definitely better without agressive and stupid American Imperialism.

Crimea was illegally invaded and continues to be illegally occupied by enemy army.

And crimeans says it is OK. There were neither invasio, nor illegal occupation. I prefer to believe crimeans.

Russia historically moved population from inside Russia onto territories it invaded while oppressing and killing native population.

You confused Russia to the USA. The USA oppressed and killed natives and moved remained survivors to reservations. All nations and nationalities of Russian Federation have been living on their historical land. All nationalities, including crimean tatars.

Only those seriously brainwashed want to live in a Russian-style system.

Quite contrary. Russians can think, analyze information and defend opinion at any place in the world. You can't because you're feeling enough comfortable yourself to believe talking heads from FOX News or CNN.

Zvonko and Sidekick appear to be from the same team that was sent to Crimea and to Eastern Ukrain.

Nope, dude. We are just trying to stay aside from a brainless asylum choir that blames Russia and Russians without reasons and solid evidences.

Yes Russia continues to occupies lands of other nations.

So, feel free to find "Russian Occupation Forces" somewhere in Okinawa or Diego Garsia and prove your desperate statemdnt by valid proofs.

No one believes that Putin is sincere.

No one of US folks, addicted to CNN and FOX News.

Putin was the one who supplied high-tech missiles to the Ukranian separatists.

Prove your statement by valid evidences or it will be considered a pure lie (of Western style).

Sure, the rebels shot down MH17.

According to last press-conference of Russian Ministery of Defence (you may see on YT), evidences, including satellite images, show that it was a dirty provocation of Ukranians.

I do. I smell a BIG fat rat sitting in the Kremlin

Stop watching Loonie Tunes Cartoons and read a book of International Law. Educate yourself a bit. Then you will realize, that your NTSB has no a sovereign and ultimate right to investigate a crash of aircraft on a territory of the Ukraine.

Well, in this case it eliminates Russia or its surrogates as the possible perpetrators, right?

Wrong. Releasing that video, Ukranians insisted that "it was a rocket launcher of rebels moving nearby Russian borderline". But the insignia of roadside billboard proved that the video was shown in a suburb of Kiev, in central part of Ukrain, far from a territory, controlled by rebels. There aren't any "Eastern Ukranian rebels" in Kiev by definition.

Why they won't allow NTSB to investigate? It's NOT Russia's job to investigate a crash site!

Had you solid knowledges, you'd know that your NTSB has no a sovereign right to investigate a crash of aircraft on a territory of a sovereign state. The international team of ICAO must accomplish the investigation.

Are the Black Boxes in the possession of NTSB?

No, no need to do it. Or the all useful information will be erased or covered up. Your leadership support the Ukraine and you will never allow the World to know the True Reasons of the Air Crash.

Oh, yes, we do. There are already spy satellites from the US intelligence that show the BUK truck launcher that fired the actual missile

You don't. Yet you did not released that "satellite image". All talks around your "spy satellite info" are rumours or cheap lie.

Now one of the trains that carries bodies. There is NO gas and the cooling system is shut down.

Have you been there? Have you checked up the cooling system of that train with bodies? NO? So, stop spreading up the cheap lie !

Surveillance satellites recorded the missile launch point and that location was in rebel-held Ukraine.

Please, prove your statement. Provide a link to the detailed satellite image with that "missile launcher on a rebel-held territory". Otherwise your "information" is nothing short of a cheap lie

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Nice job Sidekick. It seems no one wants to refute you now that some facts are coming out. All of the hysterical "Putin did!" wind bags have been deflated, or have just moved on to the next emotional story being pumped out by Reuters or the AP.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

FadamorJUL. 22, 2014 - 02:59AM JST @Oleg, Oleg, I've traveled to Russia three times in the last decade. Russia's REAL big problem isn't parking, it's the rampant corruption in the government that means you can't get ANYTHING done without first bribing the appropriate official(s). "Respectful authorities"?! I had a good belly laugh at that bit of fiction. Thanks for bringing a bit of surreal humor to my day.

So I'm living here in Russia for 40 years.

What can I say ? - today system works !

Without any foreign help - All that Russian have achieved in last 15 years was made without any foreign help

Or huge volume of investition like in Communist China .

Georgia (also new pro American democracy like Ukraine ) - boasted Great Victory over corruption....

But it is third world country with huge unemployment and hunger and huge debts Why is it so ?

So Russia is not third world country - what does it means? - Russian state and Russian autorities should work

for Russian people not for " international democratic community "

Independent state - like Russia or Iran - is always a bad colony my friend

And failed coloniser starting songs 'bout corruption and dictatorship

But in USA anybody cares what foreignes think about US political system ?

So you can like it or dislike it but in Russia system works and nobody needs to start war or civil war

Russian gov unlike Ukrainian control whole territory of the state and all military forces

Regularly pay debts and salaries of employees

Ukraine - failed state - so the big war against "imperialist Russia" - is a good exit from such situation as

empty treasury huge debts the economy that stops to work and civile war in full scale

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

**What can I say ? - today system works !

Without any foreign help - All that Russian have achieved in last 15 years was made without any foreign help**

Really? YOu might want to ask those living in poverty how well the system works. You might want to ask the kids sent to fight for Russia, you might want to ask the families of the dead journalist, the gays, lesbians and bisexuals, the minorities... Keep swallowing the crap Putin feeds you because it is clear for any outsider or well educated Russian - many of whom have left - that it is NOT working.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Two brother nations fighting each other. It will be soon like North Korea and South Korea:(

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"MH17 brought down by Russian backed separatists". " WMDs minutes away from launch in Saddam's hands". "Overwhelming evidence Iran gassed Iraqi village". What do these headlines have in common? They are based on 'evidence' proffered by the government that said that shooting down a civilian passenger plane in a war zone wasn't even worth apologizing for, but was worth awarding medals to those who fired their missiles at a civilian jet, flying in an approved civilian flight corridor, with its civilian transponder on, on a regularly scheduled flight. Guess how many of them turned out to be complete inversions of reality.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Piece of fuselage from under left cockpit window, with what looks like shrapnel holes and a large hole.http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-39.html#post8575053

Satellite photo marked for MH17 flight path, missile flight path including launch point at Snizhe and MH17 crash point, by Washington Post from US intelligence. Given restrictions on revealing satellite capabilities I don't think we're going to get much better than that. pprune post: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-40.html#post8575571 WaPo photo: http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_358w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/07/22/Interactivity/Images/MH17-Shootdown-flightpath.jpg

Photos of Buk launcher on tractor trailer in town of Torez and on the way home after launch: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-40.html#post8575152

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Why West is pushing so hard? what they are trying to achieve? Even if pro-Russian rebels DID shoot it down by mistake. So what? Somebody is desperately pushing for war with Russia.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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