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Rebels return 80 fewer bodies than promised from MH17, experts say

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First it's "Don't disturb the crash site"

Then it's "Get the bodies out of the heat"

Then it's "Hey where are you putting the bodies, don't disturb the crash site"

Then it's "Hey collect all the evidence including the boxes and submit them to us"

Then it's "Hey what are you doing? Don't disturb the evidence".

Geez, give the guys a break.

-14 ( +3 / -17 )

Geez, give the guys a break.

Burning Bush -- huh? Don't follow your logic. But if I understand your rather obtuse point, you are saying the world should cut some slack to the terrorists who likely shot down the plane and then allowed the remains of innocent victims to rot in the sun for days, all the while allowing folks to loot their possessions and running amok over the crash site, while holding the "black boxes" hostage for political purposes? Did it dawn on you that if they had allowed international experts in right away, instead of following steps to advance their agenda, none of the points you make it your post would have ever occurred?

6 ( +12 / -6 )

If Putin were to admit the truth, it would confirm that Russia has supplied fanatical and in some cases possibly rebel leaders with advanced military equipment contrary to his assertions that Russia has nothing to do with the Ukraine conflict, other than wanting peace. Such an admission expands the Ukrainian conflict to the world stage. If the rebels did it, they probably carried out this launch as they thought it was a Ukrainian military aircraft over their territory, therefore fired at the aircraft just as they have done so in the past with other Ukrainian aircraft and it does seem to be a mistake in identification, therefore negligence can be attributed to a variety of groups. This includes the rebels, Malaysian Airlines for not doing a proper risk assessment and the Ukrainian government for directing civilian aircraft directly over the an area of hostility where numerous aircraft have been shot down previously.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Problem is, Putin will NEVER admit to being or having any responsibility to the the downed MH17, sure I don't believe he purposely and wanted the plane shot down, but if you can tie the Pro-Russian surrogates to the Kremlin, it's going to get bad for Putin, no doubt. Also the admission of guilt is something Russians are actually known for. Although popular at home, Putin is very unpopular outside of Russia.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

First it's "Don't disturb the crash site"

Then it's "Get the bodies out of the heat"

Then it's "Hey where are you putting the bodies, don't disturb the crash site"

Then it's "Hey collect all the evidence including the boxes and submit them to us"

Then it's "Hey what are you doing? Don't disturb the evidence".

Then it's "Hey, where are 80 bodies? Yet you didn't find them!"

Then it's "Why have you disturbed the crash site? Why have you displaced pieces of wreck ?"

A sort of kindergarden indeed.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

bass4funk:

Problem is, Putin will NEVER admit to being or having any responsibility to the the downed MH17...

I think not only Putin, but no one would admit something he/she has not done. I trust the US officials when they said that Buk shoot the plane. And I trust the Rusians when they said rebels don't have Buks, and their satellite photos showing Ukrainian Buks close to rebel territories and electronic intelligence data indicating exceptional (out of pattern) activities of Buk's Kupol radars during the crash (nine Kupols active). In system analysis, out of pattern meta data (with variable entropy of information) are a good indicator of something happening in the system. And that some of these Buks retreated immediately after the crash. The third side - Ukraine - said they have photos and videos of "rebel's Buk" with "one missile missing" claimed to be retreating to Russia. Well, the place is in Krasnoarmeisk (Russian Defense proved it during their media briefing a couple of days ago) - a town, which from May 2014 is under full control of Ukrainian army. Moreover, the number of the shown Buk vehicle, seen from photo with good resolution, claimed to be traveling to Russia, is 312. What is interesting, a some time ago I saw in Ukrainian web site an article, showing Buks and saying "These systems will protect Ukraine from Russian attack." One of the Buks was 312. Also, there are Ukrainian videos (dated March, 2014) from driver recorders on roads in Ukraine that show batteries of Buks, aligned along the roads. One of the aligned Buks was 312...

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

satellite photos showing Ukrainian Buks close to rebel territories and electronic intelligence data indicating exceptional (out of pattern) activities of Buk's Kupol radars during the crash (nine Kupols active). In system analysis, out of pattern meta data (with variable entropy of information) are a good indicator of something happening in the system. And that some of these Buks retreated immediately after the crash.

Seems, that Kupol radars were used by Ukranians to provide a guidance to pilot of Sukhoi SU-25 who chased MH17. This airplane, a close analog of A-10 Thunderbolt is equipped by AA missiles and a powerful gun.

By comparison, a missile of BUK SAM has enormous explosive warhead which hit a target by huge amount of metal balls in supersonic speed. The civil jet would be torn apart to small pieces like it took place with Russian TU-154, downed by Ukranian Army in 2001 over Black Sea. The traces on a wreck of MH17 (there is a photograph of a piece of wing ) are different.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

And I trust the Rusians when they said rebels don't have Buks, and their satellite photos showing Ukrainian Buks close to rebel territories and electronic intelligence data indicating exceptional (out of pattern) activities of Buk's Kupol radars during the crash (nine Kupols active).

And if pigs had wings, they could fly.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

jerseyboy:

And if pigs had wings, they could fly.

Ok, I understood your argument, and assume you have no better one against my words.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

And if pigs had wings, they could fly.

Indeed.

On Tuesday, the Commander of the Air Force Space Command , which operates satellites that can detect missile launches around the world, declined to elaborate on what, exactly, the U.S. military was able to observe from space at the time of the shootdown. But the commander, Gen. William L. Shelton, was dismissive of Russian suggestions that the U.S. government was bluffing or exaggerating its evidence.

It is an act of desperation, Shelton said of demands from Russian military leaders that Washington make public any satellite imagery it collected from eastern Ukraine around the time of the aviation disaster. I will say it about our satellites : They are very good satellites. They are very sensitive and they are very accurate.

Source : WP

In short : Had we good satellites, we would show you all !

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

The dead-enders' insistence is growing pathetic.

...declined to elaborate on what, exactly, the U.S. military was able to observe from space....

Standard practice. Elucidation would reveal the extent of America's abilities. I figured this would happen; they will have to figure out a way to prove this without compromising their intelligence abilities.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Sidekick:

Seems, that Kupol radars were used by Ukranians to provide a guidance to pilot of Sukhoi SU-25 who chased MH17. This airplane, a close analog of A-10 Thunderbolt is equipped by AA missiles and a powerful gun.

By comparison, a missile of BUK SAM has enormous explosive warhead which hit a target by huge amount of metal balls in supersonic speed. The civil jet would be torn apart to small pieces like it took place with Russian TU-154, downed by Ukranian Army in 2001 over Black Sea. The traces on a wreck of MH17 (there is a photograph of a piece of wing ) are different.

Possible, and I was thinking about the same thing. However, yesterday I saw a photo of the debris in FT, that is consistent with Buk:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

"terrorists who likely shot down the plane and then allowed the remains of innocent victims to rot in the sun for days, all the while allowing folks to loot their possessions and running amok over the crash site, "

When the rebels moved the bodies into a refrigerated train they were blasted for " moving and destroying evidence"...seems they are damned by the media whatever they do.

As for "looting possessions " - this claim by our western media was backed by a photo showing one of the rebels holding up a stuffed toy as a "trophy"....yet a full video of the event ( from which the still photo was taken ) is posted on the web showing the rebel actually holding up the toy, saying something to the effect of " the bastards who did this should take a good look at this ". Then he takes off his hat, bows his head and makes a sign of the cross to pay his respect. Of course that part of the video was not mentioned in western media. Quite different reality from the "outrageous looting " claims.

As I said before there are too many twists in this tragic story and it would be wise to wait for more irrefutable, verified evidence before making a judgment about who really is responsible for this and making them accountable for it.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

When I read that Ukraine officials has no doubt it was a trained Russian who shot the plane down and that they taped a conversation, I know it was Ukraine. It was like a confession to their crime. Their behavior tells me that they cooked up this plan to frame Putin/Russia and fabricated evidence to back it up.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

I wouldn't be surprised if those who gave the order and those who pushed the button have already been shot in the back of the head by putins gang, for embarrassing him and so they can incriminate him no more.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I really don't see a problem with armed idiots going through a plane crash site that they are the prime suspects for. Can we talk about something else, please?

Putin is firmly in a box now. If he deviates from the Russian propaganda he will raise suspicion at home. If he keeps holding a hard line he will alienate the rest of the world. I'm guessing he will make some watered-down statements to walk the fine line. He can't be a "crazy Ivan" and a statesman at the same time, so he'll stay out of the spotlight for a while.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

this claim by our western media was backed by a photo showing one of the rebels holding up a stuffed toy as a "trophy"....yet a full video of the event ( from which the still photo was taken ) is posted on the web showing the rebel actually holding up the toy, saying something to the effect of " the bastards who did this should take a good look at this ". Then he takes off his hat, bows his head and makes a sign of the cross to pay his respect. Of course that part of the video was not mentioned in western media.

Nice observation. Most of "western media" are Zionists-controlled cesspools.

Possible, and I was thinking about the same thing. However, yesterday I saw a photo of the debris in FT, that is consistent with Buk: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html

Titiano, thank you very much for your link ! What's the diameter of the standard BUK's warhead ball, I wonder? I will find more info about Siberian Flight 1812.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Not surprising. This whole thing might as well be a morbid version of Let's Make a Deal, with Putin playing the part of the host.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What's the diameter of the standard BUK's warhead ball, I wonder?

I don't know the exact size of Buk SAM shrapnel, but they are metallic cubes, weight of about 60g (7-8 times the weight of projectile of AK-47) each. Therefore, the holes in the fuselage of MH17 are not round-shaped. Siberian Flight 1812 was downed by S-200 SAM, which has ball-shaped shrapnel. The holes were more "rounded".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Are they insurgents or body a searchers?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Ok, I understood your argument, and assume you have no better one against my words.

titiano -- the falacy of your argumnt is in its very premise -- "And I trust the Russians". How short is your memory? The U.S. and the West were saying for weeks that the supposed "insurgents" who led the uprising in Crimea were Russian troops, a charge which Putin steadfastly denied. But, lo and behold, a couple of months back he did in fact admit what everyone knew all along -- Yup. I was lying.

and, marcelito:

When the rebels moved the bodies into a refrigerated train they were blasted for " moving and destroying evidence"...seems they are damned by the media whatever they do

What are you missing? The whole site, including the bodies are a crime scene. So by moving them, without experts having properly marked their locations and photographed them, and searched their bodies for evidence, they did move and destroy eveidence. And please, don't dispute my point, my daughter was a CSI for two major cities in the states, and no one, not even the coroner/medical examiner is allowed to touch a body until the crime-scene team releases it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The crash site is not just being compromised but rather sabotaged. British intelligence has uncovered evidence of a plot of the rebels to sabotage the site by placing aircraft wreckage from other crashes on the sight, removing bodies and re-arranging smaller objects. The theft and looting of passenger possessions, showing total disrespect for the dead is something for the Eastern Ukrainians to consider when those responsible are of the kind going to lead the new republic. The rebels/thugs, who do not have any military honor or code will do anything to cover their tracks. Whether they will be held accountable depends on how tough the EU is willing to get.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

“There was no security perimeter. We also noticed that the vast amount of personal belongings of passengers has been removed from the scene,” he added."

That's pro-Russian insurgents/separatists for you.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

We also noticed that the vast amount of personal belongings of passengers has been removed from the scene

And here's the rest of the comment that was scrubbed by the editor to paint the locals in a bad light.

"... has been removed from the scene and put into safe keeping for investigators as requested by Malaysian authorities."

That's how spin works folks, they cut quotes, slice scenes, chose camera angles etc. It's very easy to do, sadly so many fall for it so easily.

You know what they say, There's one born every minute.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

What ever happened to "Carlos" the Spanish air controller? No, it was AA guns, or Ukrainian fighter jets, or... pick your looney conspiracy theory.

The Russian Public Has a Totally Different Understanding of What Happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

1 ( +1 / -0 )

This CSI stuff at the site seems over the top when you consider the whole world knows a Russian supplied missile battery brought the plane down mid flight, what other evidence is required from the ground ,?

There is a need to prove either putin is directly or in directly responsible ( or he is not ) for this terrible act but I cannot see that proof being found amongst the bodies and the wreckage,

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It's pretty obvious that the rebels, and therefor their taskmaster, Putin, are trying to sanitize the evidence so that they can escape blame. You can think of whatever pejoratives you want to describe them but I'll just say scum.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Russian Public Has a Totally Different Understanding of What Happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

That's because the spin they get is different from the one we get.

And yes, our side has plenty of spin too, and if you can't see it, it has worked successfully on you.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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