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Putin says he won't start war with NATO, but Western bases hosting Ukraine F-16s would be targets

73 Comments
By ILLIA NOVIKOV and BARRY HATTON

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73 Comments

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Which would be targeting and attacking NATO countries, and good luck convincing them otherwise.

18 ( +30 / -12 )

Western allies against providing air bases in their countries from where the F-16s could launch sorties

An F16 launched from a NATO country sent towards Moscow to bomb the city will be considered an act of war.

-6 ( +15 / -21 )

Launching F-16 sorties from a NATO base on Russian forces clearly would be an act of war.

-13 ( +15 / -28 )

This is actually one of the dumbest things he has said so far and he should be making a retraction.

9 ( +23 / -14 )

The warmongers in the West want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to provide arms and personnel to Ukraine to fight against Russia, while stating they are not at war with Russia.

Of course they are at war with Russia. Ukraine is their proxy. And Russia is making that clear.

They are saying... if you designate some asset for use by Ukraine to fight us, that asset is far game.

Which it is. And the Western warmongers know that.

If the U.S. and NATO want to fight Russia, they should just declare war and get on with it.

But they don't because they want to play games.

-9 ( +15 / -24 )

The warmongers in the West want to have their cake and eat it too.

Oh please, the west didn't start the war. Russia did.

8 ( +22 / -14 )

Hey Vlad, that's called starting a war with NATO. But if you want go ahead. The Russian people deserve someone better than you and would probably welcome a regime change.

12 ( +22 / -10 )

The warmongers in the West want to have their cake and eat it too.

It’s Putin that is demanding zero retaliation for his aggression in Ukraine. And that kind of statement also makes the threat of a wider war much more likely. North Korea and Iran supplying weapons for use by Russia on Ukraine… North Korea and Iran are targets.

Want some cake?

12 ( +21 / -9 )

Are our internet warriors having difficulty understanding the meaning of this sentence?

Putin warned Ukraine’s Western allies against providing air bases in their countries from where the F-16s could launch sorties against the Kremlin’s forces

-15 ( +8 / -23 )

Are our internet warriors having difficulty understanding the meaning of this sentence? 

That sentence doesn’t matter. He would be starting a war against NATO if he attacks NATO territory. That’s quite simple. Nobody says Ukraine is at war with Iran and NK when they’re supplying Russia. Those two countries are not at any risk.

Once the planes leave the ground and reach Ukraine airspace… sure, fair game, but you attack foreign bases then it’s all on. But see how it goes if you want.

10 ( +19 / -9 )

It's Vlad's war, and his alone.

12 ( +22 / -10 )

Yeah, good luck with that...

8 ( +14 / -6 )

Is he declaring war on NATO?

is it time for the western economies to get into wartime production mode like Russia has been for a while now?

Sleeping Giants snooze alarm getting louder.

10 ( +19 / -9 )

Stop the war, make a deal on new boundaries and end this madness! The only people enjoying this are the weapons makers!

-9 ( +13 / -22 )

Are our internet warriors having difficulty understanding the meaning of this sentence?

I understand the meaning of the words coming out of Putin’s mouth, but I also understand it is bs. He knows better.

4 ( +15 / -11 )

Good article on the effectiveness and ubiquity of Russian disinfo ops. Posters will notice the familiarity of these strategies as they apply here.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/denying-russia’s-only-strategy-success

5 ( +14 / -9 )

The only people enjoying this are the weapons makers!

The Russian leadership is obviously enjoying this, otherwise they would end it tomorrow. Make Belgorod a buffer zone with UN peacekeepers.

5 ( +15 / -10 )

Yrral - these paragraphs from the above article are for you:

It is important to emphasize that by no means all who oppose continuing or expanding support for Ukraine are doing so as the result of Russian reflexive control measures. The point, however, is that Americans must recognize the enormous effort the Kremlin is putting into these and other assertions in order to create a picture of reality that, taken in its totality, is false — Russia had no right to invade Ukraine, has no rights to control Ukraine, was not provoked into such an invasion, will not inevitably win, will not inevitably escalate to fighting a full-scale war against NATO, and helping Ukraine liberate its strategic territories as the only viable path to a durable peace remains the most prudent course of action to secure US interests.

The Kremlin is also flooding Western discourse with false and irrelevant narratives, forcing us to expend energy, time, and decision bandwidth on irrelevancies rather than solutions.

8 ( +14 / -6 )

It’s alright, they got a head start on us, but we shall prevail.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

President Putin has through his own failure to understand, comprehend the Ukraine people would fight for every centimetre of Ukrainian sovereign territory.

Europe has promised, pledged support, however all has been delivered with a fork tongue, with political fudge and I suggest betrayal.

With a Trump future second term possibility in the ascendance, you can almost smell the levels of panic in the EU parliament, in the EU commission.

The realisation, years of failure to face the political economic threats dangers the Putin lead Russian Government presented.

The betrayal to the people of Europe by EU member states leaderships governments in handing over Energy Policy Security, on mass to Russian energy companies is a criminal act

3 ( +8 / -5 )

flooding Western discourse with false and irrelevant narratives

Even the Vatican, which is a Western institution, said a negotiated peace is the best option.

The tide is turning, not only on the battlefield but also in public opinion.

The world is tired of war and the slaughter of 137 helpless civilians at a rock concert only confirms that the bloodshed needs to end and the rights of both Ukrainians and Russians need to be observed and respected.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

F-16s make sense as Ukraine can no longer move Patriot batteries to frontlines in east or south as they've lost 4 batteries this month due to glide bombs, expensive and irreplaceable. Missiles also in short supply at $3M a pop.

F-16s lot cheaper method to try to reduce Russia's air superiority, especially as new glide bombs are heavier and initially propelled, making their range even beyond Patriots 90mile limit. Russia's adapting rapidly.

UA getting routed badly now, no troop mobilization, Ukraine failed state approaching as people flee the country. Nobody believes F-16s will move the dial, especially as Ukraine cannot secure their airfields.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

bloodshed needs to end and the rights of both Ukrainians and Russians need to be observed and respected.

That’s all well and good, but first Russia needs to go home.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

And we ain’t even got started on the bloodshed. You guys should ask the last guys who woke the sleeping giant how that went.

Right now most Americans are still asleep in this issue, but we are waking up.

We are slowly realizing that Putin’s Russia is not a good faith actor. We need to adjust our strategies for dealing with them, and we will.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Ukraine in reality cannot maintain and secure these F-16s effectively within Ukraine. That's their core problem, Putin knows they'll have to be based outside Ukraine and likely flown in many cases by non-Ukrainians.

-3 ( +7 / -10 )

Yeah the coward ain't doing anything to NATO bases unless he wants to find new divisions of his conscripts missing.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Whatever F16s are given to Zelensky are technically no longer NATO property.

A precision strike on a Zelensky-owned parked F16 anywhere in the world could be considered fair game if Russia has prior knowledge that the F16 will be used to bomb Russian people.

Especially once the Zelensky-owned (non NATO property) F16 is airborne, it could be deemed a fair target by the Russian S400 system which have a 250 mile range.

Since there are S400s in Kalingrad, a good chunk of NATO airspace is fair game.

Of course only after the F-16 is legally transferred to Zelensky.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

Since there are S400s in Kalingrad, a good chunk of NATO airspace is fair game.

You guys going to shoot down any more commercial airliners?

3 ( +9 / -6 )

You can't believe anything Putin says. He said he had no intention of invading Ukraine.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

And I would be real careful about doing anything from Kaliningrad.

We aren’t going to need much of an excuse is my point.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

True escalation risk, NATO involvement becoming direct, not simply proxy, if F16s flown from, maintained & based in NATO countries = direct NATO participation in this war.

Ukraine's situation desperate, losing 4 Patriot Batteries to Russia glide bombs this month hugely impacted battlefield & Ukraine's viability to avoid failed state status.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

You guys severely underestimated the will and ability of Ukraine to fight. Don’t make that mistake with the combined West too.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

HopeSpringsEternal

Ukraine's situation desperate, losing 4 Patriot Batteries to Russia glide bombs this month hugely impacted battlefield & Ukraine's viability to avoid failed state status.

That didn't happen. Ukraine haven't lost Patriot Batteries.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Important to remember Putin's intention is to save Ukraine, especially Russian speaking former Ukrainians in contested areas due to 10yr Ukraine Civil War, from western globalists. Nothing new, why his voters support him.

Battlefield always changing with F-16s and other new equipment, but premise to of this war remains the same as does the strategy. It's clear to all Ukraine cannot win.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

You guys severely underestimated the will and ability of Ukraine to fight. Don’t make that mistake with the combined West too.

Ha!

You mean Raytheon and Northrop Grumman right? $$$

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

You mean Raytheon and Northrop Grumman right? $$

Great point, its big business, as are F16s. The real money in the missiles and maintenance.

Reality is air defenses losing their effectiveness, new long range Russian propelled glide bombs, some weighing +3 tons, can be launched at Patriot Batteries from +90 miles and are largely undetectable with almost no signature. Russian air power now ending this war.

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

Plenty of reporting on Russian glide bombs taking out Patriot systems in Ukraine, naturally it's not welcome news for NATO, Biden or Ukraine.

It's WHY F16's now so needed, as glide bombs cannot easily be shot down by anything once launched. Their range is rapidly increasing, so F16s needed.

Front Page Detectives

Russian Forces Unleashing 3,300-Pound 'Monster' Bombs to Disable U.S.-Supplied Patriot Missiles in Ukraine

Story by Front Page Detective Staff

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

HopeSpringsEternal

Reality is air defenses losing their effectiveness, new long range Russian propelled glide bombs, some weighing +3 tons, can be launched at Patriot Batteries from +90 miles and are largely undetectable with almost no signature. Russian air power now ending this war.

Luckily, they are hitting any Patriot Batteries.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

So you can hide your airforce in another country and not expect them to become legitimate military targets... hmmm

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

HopeSpringsEternal

Important to remember Putin's intention is to save Ukraine,

No, it isn't. He wants to capture Ukraine and turn it into Russia.

especially Russian speaking

Most Ukrainians can speak Russian.

former Ukrainians

There are no former Ukrainians in Ukraine.

in contested areas due to 10yr Ukraine Civil War,

The civil war that Russia start.

from western globalists.

Western globalists aren't involved.

Nothing new, why his voters support him.

How would you know?

Battlefield always changing with F-16s and other new equipment, but premise to of this war remains the same as does the strategy. It's clear to all Ukraine cannot win.

And how do you arrive at that conclusion?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

If you prefer well known source, on why F16s needed in Ukraine, see below. As Patriot systems are unable to operate near frontlines without being destroyed.

FORBES

BUSINESSAEROSPACE & DEFENSE

Russia’s Glide-Bombs Are ‘Miracle Weapons.’ And Ukraine Is Still Months Away From Fighting Back With F-16s.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

2020hindsightsToday  09:44 am JST

HopeSpringsEternal

Ukraine's situation desperate, losing 4 Patriot Batteries to Russia glide bombs this month hugely impacted battlefield & Ukraine's viability to avoid failed state status.

That didn't happen. Ukraine haven't lost Patriot Batteries.

SEE above, JT readers prefer factual comments.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

NATO doesn't want a war with Russia other than using Ukraine as its proxy. Russia also doesn't want a war with NATO. Putin just stating facts that F16s taking off from airbases in Ukraine is fine but if they take off from Poland those Polish airfields will be a legitimate target for Russian missiles.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

HopeSpringsEternal

Plenty of reporting on Russian glide bombs taking out Patriot systems in Ukraine,

Yup, and they all quote the Russian Defense Ministry.

And you believe them?

5 ( +7 / -2 )

HopeSpringsEternal

That didn't happen. Ukraine haven't lost Patriot Batteries.

SEE above, JT readers prefer factual comments.

By factual comments, do you mean based on facts that the Russian Defense Ministry told you?

LMFO

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Below article details 'risk' to Raytheon Patriot business, as US Govt. not interested in these expensive Patriot batteries 1B+ being destroyed with their $3M per missile cost by cheap Russian glide bombs.

FORBES

BUSINESSAEROSPACE & DEFENSE

Russia’s Glide-Bombs Are ‘Miracle Weapons.’ And Ukraine Is Still Months Away From Fighting Back With F-16s.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

zones2surfToday 07:46 am JST

If the U.S. and NATO want to fight Russia, they should just declare war and get on with it.

But they don't because they want to play games.

Now lets send a list of demands to a third party, amirite?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

SanjinosebleedToday 08:22 am JST

Stop the war, make a deal on new boundaries and end this madness! The only people enjoying this are the weapons makers!

An unconditional ceasefire is not on the table by unstable Vlad and Ukraine will never negotiate away its legal territory.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Oh, it finally sunk into me. Ukraine and NATO are too woke for Russia. And that's why the far-right adores Putin and Russia. I am so surprised I hadn't already done thought of that.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

NATO bases won't be hosting F-16s that take any part in the war. This is just fear mongering by Putin which I think shows he really fears F-16s shooting down his airforce and neutralizing the threat of glide bombs, which is one strong advantage he has. Upgraded F-16s will outmatch most of Russia's airforce of which Russia has limited stocks of. One more reason to get them and more Patriots there fast. I see Russia lost another SU-35 this morning.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Which is a total nightmare scenario for all humanity, and why intelligent human beings don’t throw around the threat of nuclear war like children on the playground,

Which is probably why reasonable people everywhere (including the Vatican) are calling for a negotiated peace.

The alternative is a tactical nuclear exchange in between NATO and Russia in Ukraine.

So NATO will end up wiping out Ukrainians to protect their egos.

BTW, winds in that area blow from East to West, so the fallout would hit European citizens and NATO troops causing massive cancers and radiation poisoning.

The people talking about escalation and more weapons are nuts.

The people talking about a negotiated peace and an end to the bloodshed and fighting are the reasonable people.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

If Ukraine's unable to utilize F16s 100% independently of NATO, then question becomes, does NATO wish to directly engage Russia in this Ukraine conflict?

NATO members for example, French likely would be ok with above while Germany would not be with direct NATO involvement. Thus, no NATO consensus on F16s.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

Thubam, a couple paragraphs from the above article for you, but you already know these things, I suspect.

The Kremlin’s exploitation of the Western argument for “stopping the bloodshed” conceals another critical nuance. Stopping the fighting does not stop the killing when it comes to Russia. The killing continues in Russian torture chambers on territory that Russia occupies – a process that is less visible to Western audiences and in a place where victims are stripped of the means to defend themselves.[21]

The Kremlin dangles the concept of “peace” to steer the West towards Ukraine’s surrender - the outcome that Russia seeks but cannot accomplish militarily on its own. When the Kremlin “signals peace,” it actually signals a demand for Ukrainian and Western surrender. Western debate continues, nevertheless, to indulge the Kremlin’s false overtures for “‘peace,”’ despite the total lack of evidence to support any reasonable assessment that letting the Kremlin freeze the lines in Ukraine can lead to peace rather than more war.[22]

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Launching F-16 sorties from a NATO base on Russian forces clearly would be an act of war.

Russia is already at war, regardless of what their state media says. 300K Russians estimated dead - just saw this on Sunday from a reputable news source (i.e. NOT Russia).

The only negotiation possible begins when Russia leaves Ukraine. Then those negotiations will start with handing over Putin and discussions about the Russian govt paying reparations to rebuild Ukraine.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The killing continues in Russian torture chambers on territory that Russia occupies – a process that is less visible to Western audiences and in a place where victims are stripped of the means to defend themselves.[21]

The Ukrainians know this already and that is why they haven’t surrendered in two years and won’t be surrendering anytime soon.

What incentive does Ukraine have to give up their legal territory and people. None that I can see and none that they can see.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

ThubamToday 10:44 am JST

Which is a total nightmare scenario for all humanity, and why intelligent human beings don’t throw around the threat of nuclear war like children on the playground,

Which is probably why reasonable people everywhere (including the Vatican) are calling for a negotiated peace.

The alternative is a tactical nuclear exchange in between NATO and Russia in Ukraine.

So NATO will end up wiping out Ukrainians to protect their egos.

Russia hasn't earned the right for anything but spit from NATO. Once again Russia and their supporters don't know who they are at war with.

BTW, winds in that area blow from East to West, so the fallout would hit European citizens and NATO troops causing massive cancers and radiation poisoning.

The people talking about escalation and more weapons are nuts.

The people talking about a negotiated peace and an end to the bloodshed and fighting are the reasonable people.

Only an unconditional ceasefire is reasonable and Putin hasn't offered it (at least to the right people).

3 ( +6 / -3 )

When Russians say ‘peace’ vis a vis Ukraine, they really mean ‘surrender’:

Russia is hijacking and substituting key concepts of Western debate about this war, such as notions of peace and defense, contributing to Western category errors about both.

Peace = Surrender. The West naturally and understandably gravitates toward peace. Our default instinct is to seize the first opportunity in any conflict to “stop the fighting.” The Kremlin has mastered using the Western predisposition to peace as a lifeline for Russia’s wars – from Syria to Ukraine.[16] The Kremlin has not once supported its euphemism of “peace” with action in the context of Ukraine. The Kremlin has had continuous opportunities to choose peace, including a choice not to invade Ukraine – a country that Putin considered to be so militarily unthreatening that Putin assessed he could conquer it in a matter of days. Allowing Russia to keep its gains in Ukraine in 2015 and having a peace framework in place for seven years did nothing to stop the Kremlin’s reinvasion in 2022.[17] Every single version of the Kremlin’s euphemisms of “peace” since 2022 has included a demand that amounted to the destruction of Ukraine’s sovereignty.[18] Russian Security Council Deputy Chairperson Dmitry Medvedev’s recent “peace formula” explicitly called for the elimination of the Ukrainian state and its absorption into Russia.[19] The Kremlin’s use of the term “peace” has been incompatible with its actions, including Russia’s campaign to eradicate Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories.[20]

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Attacking NATO bases for any reason means war with NATO. Putie knows this.

Russia loses a war with NATO and loses it in catastrophic failure. Putie knows this as well.

This is a wounded fascist talking out of an orifice not attached to his face while trying (poorly) to disguise his obvious weakness and failure.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Stop the war, make a deal on new boundaries and end this madness! 

ok then Ukraine can join NATO they can then arm them to the teeth with weapons so Putin doesnt do it again

7 ( +9 / -2 )

It's important for JT readers to understand context for the F16s urgency. The Patriot batteries have been greatly marginalized due to Russian technological advances with glide bombs especially.

Same glide bombs will destroy airfields within Ukraine, so question becomes how can Ukraine's Airforce utilize F16s independently without NATO direct involvement?

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Keep in mind the newest Russian glide bombs are semi missiles, propelled for 50+ miles before gliding with no electronic signature. They're also 3 metric tons in weight.

Above means no airfields in Ukraine will be operational, easy target, thus F16 NATO direct involvement quandry.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

HopeSpringsEternal

It's important for JT readers to understand context for the F16s urgency. The Patriot batteries have been greatly marginalized due to Russian technological advances with glide bombs especially.

No, they haven't.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

From my understanding, F16 airfield requirements make them not viable for Ukraine at this stage of the war. Combat aircraft with far less need for runway, or even no runway, would thus be far more suitable.

But the above's been known for years, another NATO tactical miss-step, nothing new.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Peace = Surrender

Remember during the Vietnam war, anybody who advocated for peace was branded a Commie.

The propaganda is back.

Anybody who calls for peace is branded a Kremlin stooge (aka Commie).

History repeats itself.

Peace advocates were right then and are right now.

Peace means a compromise with the rights of both Ukrainians in West Ukraine and Russians in East Ukraine being taken into consideration.

Any peace which ends the bloodshed and allows families on both sides to live without bombs falling on their homes is a success.

The Yugoslav wars ended with a compromise and both Serbs and Croats freely visit each other and respect each others borders and the fighting has ended.

The Ukraine war can end also as long as people have the courage to stand up to the war mongers and compromise.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

Anybody who calls for peace is branded a Kremlin stooge (aka Commie).

if you really wanted peace, you would be calling for Russia to go home. But you arent.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

ThubamToday 11:34 am JST

Peace = Surrender

Remember during the Vietnam war, anybody who advocated for peace was branded a Commie.

The vietnam war was a civil war. The Putin War on Ukraine is a war of aggression. Quite simple really. The only way it would be comparable would be if the US rolled into Hanoi.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

ThubamToday 11:34 am JST

Peace means a compromise with the rights of both Ukrainians in West Ukraine and Russians in East Ukraine being taken into consideration.

And Russia being eliminated from the picture. Unfortunately they already annexed illegally.

The Yugoslav wars ended with a compromise and both Serbs and Croats freely visit each other and respect each others borders and the fighting has ended.

You should tell JJE how he lives in the best of all possible worlds.

The Ukraine war can end also as long as people have the courage to stand up to the war mongers and compromise.

The only war monger is Putin and he is unwilling to compromise with an unconditional ceasefire.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

HopeSpringsEternal

It's important for JT readers to understand context for the F16s urgency. The Patriot batteries have been greatly marginalized due to Russian technological advances with glide bombs especially.

No, they haven't.

Don't believe me, read below or other sources. Below article does not address latest generation larger powered glide bombs with 100+ mile range. All Patriot systems need to remain far away from frontlines now.

The article mentions a Patriot battery on the move 20 miles from the front line that was spotted and two of its launchers hit by missiles.

So, the facts:

1.Patriot Batteries have not been destroyed, but 2 launchers have. Ukraine has three-dozen launchers.

2.The launchers weren't in action, but moving. So they weren't hit while in defense mode.

3.There is no evidence that Patriots are prone to these glide bombs or any other missiles.

4.The Ukraine Air Force are probably being defensive while the US Congress have still not approved the $60 billion aid package. Expect things to change after that is approved.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

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