Russia promises military aid to South Ossetia

they are not expected to impose sanctions. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has angrily warned Europe not to do America’s bidding and said Moscow does not fear Western sanctions

The western world was hypocritic...they love talking high morale standard but when the situation that matters their interests they will back-off! Energy was the western world need desperately their 'doctrines' were just a little show only!

What a shame.... the whitehouse and pentagon has betrayed her ally! Russia has lectured her students like China,North Korea,Iran...uncle sugar was a paper tiger!

hey wait a second reddragonguy, you can't have it both ways, the big problem you leftwingers have with bush is that he went into Iraq alone. Now you are critical because George Bush isn't going into Georgia unilaterally?

This is in Europes backyard. Putin knows the last European leader with any balls was Ms Thatcher and he knows Bush can't do anything with a Democratic congress and public opinion in the tank.

The lack of leadership from the EU is disappointing but not unexpected.

I think that the basic problem that most people have with Bush is not that he went into Iraq alone. He didn't. He cobbled together the Coalition of the Willing to help him fight the Axis of Evil in Iraq.

The problem is that he sent US troops across an ocean to invade a country where there was no substantial threat to US security and that he did so without fully appraising the situation. The criticism here is not that Bush did not rush troops to Georgia. It's that he gets huffy when the Russians respond forcefully to a Georgian military push against South Ossetia, a geographical entity which borders Russia and which is an arguable threat to it if remaining part of Georgia.

Moderator: Readers, Iraq is not relevant to this discussion.

Russia is trying to look like he good guy, but all of us decent folk, know it is a trick.

Sezwho. a threat to Russia??? Where do you get this?

TonyUS,

NATO's fundamental purpose is to thwart Russia. Russia has every interest in supporting political regions on its borders to be free from countries that seek to be a part of NATO.

How would missiles in Cuba be a threat to the US?

Sezwho. you are talking about an area of Georgia to begin with. Read the title of the article. Russia promises MILITARY AID to South Ossetia.. now who is the threat to everyone in the region... THAT IS RUSSIA. And why does Russia feel democratic states as being a threat to them that has no military power and now all on that area seems to need all the military power necessary to stop Russia from continuing its posture upon others in the region that may not want to kneel to them and has more interest in the western style life style. Seems all are at risk from a dominating Russia stance that wishes to be friends with the west..

I do not find any agreement with your post. To begin with, Russia is the aggressor and has no reason or right to perform any military actions across its own borders. Also to take control of land from a democratic nation on the other side of its borders. No excuse what so ever for that and I also believe if Russia wishes to press military aid to provinces of Georgia then the western allies has every right to press military assistance in all areas to those that are threatened by Russia's push of takeover and control, and should happen sooner than later. I see Russia as a pig these days and should be treated as such by all civalized societies of the world, not that they are any lower than what China has done to Tibet and threats it holds against Taiwan. But we see who is buddy buddy in today's world. Funny how two can be such allies of one another when both seem to act of the same moral standards. What a pitty we all have to put up with such relicts of the past.

Tony you and Sez have different motivations. Sez is primarily motivated by fear of US power. To him Russia is a partner in challenging US global power and influence, so he will debate from the position of defending Russia and advocating their interests since a stronger Russia makes him personally feel better.

Sez: Russia has every interest in supporting political regions on its borders to be free from countries that seek to be a part of NATO.

hehe well that isn't saying much. A criminal has "every interest" in evading police, too. It's something that can be said, but if you're saying it during a conversation about a criminal running from police and plowing his car into a school you'd sound pretty disingenuous.

The differnce between present and the cold war decades was the west needs much much more energy than before....the only source can providing this huge appitide to the west was Russia. After eight years of wars in Afghanistan and five years wars in iraq, the west found they are very troubles already in such an attritions. It was definately no good to risk for themselves at present! Georgia was too negilable it was unwise for the wealthy world to fight for. Bush was face saving and worst than Chamberlain...he has no stragetic visions at all! After a month has gone the west has no answer to accept Georgia as a Nato member! Lets hope Poland and Czech good luck they are the next on hit list!

VOR: Putin knows the last European leader with any balls was Ms Thatcher

And who is the present Mrs Thatcher? Mrs Merkel? She is Germany and Germany is Merkel?And where is her balls?

I wish people posting on here had to state their nationality, because I'm becoming increasingly biased and find myself blaming Americans for all the anti-Russian posts - truly sorry to all those nice Americans who don't subscribe to the notion that Bush is God. (I'm British by the way.)

Russia promises military aid to South Ossetia

I should think so! It would hardly be civilised to leave the poor beggars to fend off the Georgians on their own, damn it! And all those anti-Russian posters ought to remember that The war began Aug 7 when Georgian forces began heavy shelling of the South Ossetian capital, (In case it's different in American, heavy shelling means bombing the damn place and everyone in it.)

Actually, I was in the UK when this started, and I was disturbed and intrigued to see conflicting reports even on the same channel. Most reports conveniently forgot to mention that Georgia started the war for example. One reporter sounded quite irate and desperate to get his point across when he explained that the destroyed apartment blocks on the screen at the time weren't actually bombed by Russia (as all other reports were claiming,) but had been destroyed by the explosions caused when Russia bombed a Georgian arms storage unit nearby. Some may say that Russia shouldn't have bombed a military target near civilians, but more would say that military munitions should never be stored anywhere near civilian homes.

the world would be more stable if the U.S. was less dominant.

Too right. Couldn't agree more. Of course, if the US was less self-interested and incompetent I might not be so eager to agree.

Gordon Brown’s call in an article published Sunday for Europe to adopt a united energy policy and avoid dependence on Russia.

Surely he's also one of the people calling for the world to not rely on the middle East for energy? Perhaps he has a shortlist of places where it's acceptable to get various types of energy from? If so, maybe he should let us all in on it?

Brown should know better than to stick his oar in and support Bush. He knows damn well that supporting Bush was Blair's biggest mistake. But I've never claimed that Brown was intelligent, so what can I expect.

Russia was protecting it's own people from Georgian attack, and frankly I feel that if Georgia is left without the two breakaway provinces it should consider itself lucky not to have been invaded properly and re-absorbed into Russia. It's impossible to make everyone happy when countries divide, and it was naive and somewhat ignorant of Georgia's government to assume that 1. all the people in what they call Georgia should be humble and subservient to the Georgian government, and 2. that they could bomb areas with a high density of Russians without any kind of backlash.

By the way, perhaps one of the Americans on here could clarify why the Russians found an unexpectedly high number of Americans when they advanced into the breakaway provinces? Bush declined to comment when accused of putting his spies there, but who were they and why were they there?

warmonger

SuperLib,

Why don't you state what your motivations and feelings are and let me state mine? Would that be too much to ask?

I don't fear US power. I fear the unintelligent use of US power. What motivates me is difficult for me to put into words but it has much more to do with my wish to live in a country that is relatively free from paranoia than it does with qualms about our military might. I do, however, think we could cut back on the steroids and I do agree with Putin's concern about a unipolar world where that pole is any one country within the world.

I think your Russia as criminal and NATO as police analogy is a poor one. Russia no more wants a US-driven NATO sitting on its borders than we want Russia sitting on ours. This has nothing to do with criminality.

TonyUS,

Please give me credit for knowing what has been shouted about on the news for the last several weeks that South Ossetia is part of Georgia. I'm aware of that.

I'm also aware of that South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. That Georgia is a democratic country has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Russia has any "right" to give military aid to South Ossetia.

President-for-Life Vlad Putin poisons his rivals, has Russian journos assassinated and also provides military aid to Zimbabwe and Iran because, well, his fears of NATO member nations encircling his vast empire.

But of course, since I obviously didn't get that from NuPravda.org it should be taken cum grano salis.

Well Sez, Do what??????? A part of Georgia, Russia has the right to support separatists within Georgia.. Give me a friggin break from that nonsense. Seems the Chechnians also deserve military aid from outside as well since they wish to not be part of Russia. DUH! from your support of Russia it sure does not sound as if you realize that S,Ossetia is part of Georgia and by all means no one has the right to say it is not. If those people want to be part of Russia then they do have the right to move to Russia and get the hell put of Georgia.

Dammit.... First off I am from the US, "AMERICAN"" But it does not take a person from some sophisticated, Russian or Chinese educational system to understand that you have some twisted view of the country of Georgia.... You do not understand that the people of S. Ossetia live in Georgia as well. You say you are from Britain but if you can not realize that S, Ossetia lies within Georgia borders, you are from some place not of earth.

Those people not able to defend themselves from the Georgians??????? They live in Georgia and are Georgians themselves. What are you talking about?? They are rebel separatists, just as stupid Russia calls the people fighting Russians forces in Chechnya. No difference, NO DIFFERENCE! So Russia has the right to squash their rebels and Georgia does not? BS!!!!!!!!!!

Russia is and has been the cause of all what has and what is now going on, they are meddling in another countries affairs and supporting separatists of that country and that is not a statement based on lies or deception. Russia is in another country causing havoc and is the only reason and cause for the situation at this time because they are the ones that have created all of this from the start.

You would say different if Russia was supporting separatists within your country , I am sure!

Dammit.. also Russia has no right to say how many Americans or any other people of nations around the world can be in any country. One reason being that so Many Americans are there because the government of Georgia is an ally to the US, That does not take much knowledge or even common sense to figure that out. What is a shame is Georgia not getting the military equipment needed to protect its borders by invading forces from ANOTHER country..

Seems you have some deceptive view of all of this... Georgia is not Russian and Russia like it or not must understand that, and it should even be easier for you to accept. Georgia was taken by force by Russia to begin with and for you to say a country separating is so dam hard then you should take into the mix the fact that Georgia was never to be part of Russia from the beginning and now is back to where it should have always been, free .. But now we see Russia still does not want to let go of what it took by force to begin with..

Are you sure you are from Britain, if so maybe moved there from Russia or back when it was the Soviet Union. Why else would you want Georgia to be sectioned off and taken by Russia when Georgia has its specific border and always has.

interesting article

EU leaders warn Russia over partnership talks http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/ap_on_re_eu/russia_georgia

TonyUS, they aren't actually Georgians. We're talking about people with Russian nationality and Russian passports here. Why should they leave and return to what is now Russia? When they set up home Georgia WAS Russia, and it's hardly their fault that someone else came along and redrew the borders of Russia. When I said that it's impossible to make everyone happy when a country divides I should have mentioned that it works the other way too, it's impossible to make everyone happy when two or more countries join. (If you don't believe me, look into the history of the separation and re-joining of Berlin, or the mess that's sometimes known as Israel and Palestine, or 'the former Yugoslavia'.) People were always going to be pied off about it, but please try to remember that Georgia was the country that started the war**. If you bomb foreigners living legally in your country, do you really expect their government to bow meekly and say "your wish is my command Oh Great One"?

And please try to remember that it isn't me personally who's blaming the Georgian government for starting this, it's the Georgian people, the real Georgian people, with Georgian passports and nationality, who don't want to live in Russia but to stay in Georgia. If they say it's the Georgian government's fault then they're probably right - they were there after all.

You would say different if Russia was supporting separatists within your country , I am sure!

Maybe so, but the only obvious supporters of the terrorists I grew up knowing in my country were the Americans. Ever heard of the IRA? You probably didn't think that massacring British citizens or maiming them for life was a crime. But most of your people realised differently when you experienced terrorism in your own land. Who's to blame is largely irrelevant to the people affected by terrorism, war, or the alteration of the borders of your country. Apportioning blame is merely a method used to avoid making peace.

Russia didn't claim that there were too many US citizens. They simply said there was an unexpectedly high number, and they didn't appear to be your normal immigrants for work with families etc. And if the Americans were there because Georgia is an ally, why were they so concentrated at the borders at the very moment Georgia was provoking a war?

You know perfectly well that all this "ally" garbage is just because of your pipeline and because Bush wants his nukes stationed in Georgia. If he didn't need them, he'd only care about their relationship with Russia if it threatened his own or his country's financial interests in some way. And Russia has every reason to suspect Bush of conveniently placing a nuke where it can be directed at Russia and fired PDQ.

Yes I'm British. Maybe the way I see the world is partly because of what I've seen - like your lot invading Iraq under a veil of lies - and partly because my own country has played the part of invader and invaded too in it's history. I try to see both sides of any argument. Do you?

I found an impartial web-site about Georgia, the CIA one and the Georgian one will obviously be biased. If you actually research, you'll find that the only relatively peaceful and prosperous time the Georgians have had for centuries was when they were part of Russia. You my be surprised to find that the 'breakaway regions' have been that from the very moment Georgia was separated. Someone should have taken the citizens into consideration when they redrew the borders. You should also question whether your country would care so much if you didn't have huge resources invested in that damn pipeline. Russian military forces and peacekeepers have been in Georgia since the separation, please remember that when some news bulletins make it appear that the Russian forces only entered the country in August. They were there for years, and their withdrawal is unlikely to be very snappy.

Dammit, first off they live in Georgia

living in Georgia a Russian passport should mean nothing unless for visiting Georgia

Georgia is just wanting to define its natural baorders and has every right to do so, None of Russia;s bussiness at all

Russia is a PIG This crap of Russia is unbelievable. I believe they are wanting to push everything to the brink of someone ready to push the button, They are fools!!!!!!!!!!

The new president of Russia is nothing but a communist minded piece of crap!!!!!!!

Vocal critic of Kremlin shot dead in police custody http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/09/02/2003422066

Russia warns against backing Georgia http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/09/02/2003422065

Dannit, You are funny, Georgia wants friendly ties with US, no one is making them, where do you come up with such spin? US and pipe lines so what, sure US wants good relations, but so does Georgia.. and it is their choice like it or not

You can also go back and express history and prosperity, but that was then and we eventually seen what happened to the Soviet Union, today is of a different time and economically you can not say what the future for Georgia will be when trying to say the past will be the present, Nothing stays the same and everything changes, Yes, you and I do look at this issue with completely different views, I look into the future as developments to take place, not into the past that has already faded into history and has no barring on the present times and changes that are taking place around the world, when hopefully, people are gaining their independence and unchained from those forcing upon them power, which Russia is doing right now as a repeat of the past. You may try and make excuses and back that type of mentality and type of forceful rule over others but I sure the hell do not and never will. Although not a supporter of Bush and his policies, I am happy Iraq will be a country of the people and just hope the world will stand against Russia’s aggression against Georgia and stop them from deciding what Georgia should be and the people of Georgia to continue to develop their own future without Russia’s bold imposition upon them.

TonyUS,

I don't know how many times that I have to say that I know that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. No matter how many times you repeat this fact, it adds nothing to your argument. No matter how many times you suggest that I don't know this fact, it adds nothing to your argument.

This is not a question of "rights". It is a question of power politics. If you would like to send military aid to Chechnya, be my guest. I will criticize it, but don't let that stop you. Before you do so, however, are you sure that the US is not already covertly doing that? You wouldn't want to inadvertently step on Uncle Sam's toes.

I don't see any fundamental difference between supporting a breakaway in South Ossetia and supporting the independence of Kosovo as guaranteed by NATO troops or encouraging a Kurdish revolt or arranging for the overthrow of Castro. (For that matter, did France have to interfere in the revolt of Crown colonies?) What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

If the US and NATO want to stop this, they will have to either overpower the Russians or outmaneuver them. This administration is not smart enough to outmaneuver the Russians but fortunately is at least smart enough not to try to overpower them.

SezWho, if US and NATO wants to stop this, then we will see these break away provinces start being armed to wear any move by Russia will result in consequences to an invasion with real casualties if they invade other areas or other countries. Arms race, I think not, but negotiations between the countries and Russia at the same time building their defenses and offensive capabilities. As we have seen by elections, none of these countries want Russia over Europe or US. If this is what they want , they should have it and no one including Russia should stop them. Russia wants to blame this on the west and bring NATO closer to their borders, but at the same time over the years has continually built the Chinese military with advanced weapon systems but I do not see any thing said of such in any post when it comes to Russia and the US response to other situations that have to be considered when speaking global issues and security but am sure all is being concidered in response to these conditions, and when speaking global that includes everything and the US must consider everything, again not all is black and white such as this with Georgia or missile defense and placing interceptor rockets. This thing with Georgia is just a small piece of a very , very large puzzle. I am just waiting for a fall out between Russia and China to come about, and it will eventually as with any two countries over time. It is inevitable.

Your words suggest that Russia should rule and have the right to do so. My remarks are that Russia has no right and Russia has fallen back to pre Russia mentality and are taking the course and mindset of the SOVIET UNION days of rule.

I am saying I am against that as your words say it is ok. If for standing for free nations then as you suggest, there is no move to sit and watch freedom be destroyed by an aggressor. If isolating Russia is the only choice then that must be and be sure to take all steps so the isolation will be effective, but on the other hand, effectiveness would be difficult when there is China that with the need of energy as well could support Russia in any event , economically, so the ripple effects would also have to be considered, Besides I see all this associated with the rise of China and the world support of China's economy and this is where it lead to with these countries that hold the world energy supplies of oil and their rise to power. What a situation the west has caused with the catering to large corporate interests.

I am certain these remarks will not go over well, but all is connected and all of these issues has brought about the power of those that should never have been given the power to rise and begin what we are witnessing now. If you notice, just about all my references come back to one thing. China.. The continual support the west have gave to China has only caused us more and more problems and has given the radical power hungry leaders around the world more and more power and leverage that the west is finding impossible to deal with.

All is not black and white when it comes to promotion of a global community and all this has added fuel to the fire we are witnessing now. China and Tibet, no one can do anything or put pressure to correct what China has and is doing with the Tibetans, Same3 with Russia and its rise again in power because of the demand for energy, main cause, China’s heated economy, and why is that? Corporate interest from the greed of politicians in the west and some sort of sought leverage of interaction with China back at Nixon’s time to have an edge in the cold war with Soviet Union. Many events has lead us to what the problems we face today, but the main issue that has brought all this about was the support and building of China and that lies right here in our hands. Like my opinion or not, I see China as the main source of all of this and the continual support of their economy by western companies that are allowed to produce in that country and able to ship their produces back here and to all western nations while we are seeing such an imbalance of trade and seeing china with double digit growth rates and ours at 1.9%, which seems to be the latest numbers. It is a circle, connected with demand and sky rocketing energy prices that has brought these nations into the fold of holding power over small ones and even over the western powers that is loosing the grip they once had in stopping such aggression from the radical leaders and power hungry countries. Another issue Sez, is I would rather see the US and its allies have the hand in power than ever the Russians or China or Saudi’s, and even the crap we are getting out of Venezuela and Chaves. All related to the power and influence of the high demand for energy and the rise of China we can blame ourselves for that has brought about this demand and high energy prices.

Russia has done a very good job in the Georgia.. the western world's GREED of energy is causing the world in chaos. Russia should think twice,the more energy went into the west's hand the more GREEDS they done to Russia.They annexed Poland,Czech,Slovaia..Romania those former Warsaw pact memebrs to put the trenches forward. Now thats not enough they are eating up those former soviet republics like Ukraiane,Gerorgia and what next Kazakstan..? THis has to stop immediately otherwise Russia China' survival will be in hostile. Russia should keep working with China over energy problems. China got those energy resources will given more military obligations to defend her interests. The rise of China is foundation over the huge demands of energy resources...just like what Chinese done in Africa. But thats not enough China needs a lot more energy that only those former sovietsland can supplied. Chinese leader has given full support over Russia's confrontations with NATO that Chinese will using by all means of method to get energy and of course that was a support of Russia. The west was too arrogances and they have to learn a lesson! By the way US and Europe economy was weak and heading to crisis in the coming future, they dont have 'teeths' to deal with this. It was totally legitimate for Russia to get back the interests the west owed! That was a surprise to the west that Russia took a hard stance but that wasnt surprise in Chinese.The west wont damaging her economy interests with China for fighting energy, they need China's market and cash,their wars in Iraq,Iran,Afghanistan was yet to complete far from over!

well any one that supports suppression of their own people will definitely not see any thing wrong with suppression of others or domination over another.

But how long will large nations put up with being forced into a corner with out reacting. Once this happens the world will be facing great danger. Russia with the Baltic region is just a start. Russia and China would love to control all resources in that region, and if this is done at the expense of small independent democratic nations, both will be leading up to a larger confrontation that will destroy world security which will not be good for anyone and China and Russia either one will be out in the cold and isolated again from the world..

Reddragonguy you forget, the world got along well with out either one of these countries throughout history. No one especially major democracies are going to let China or Russia push them around with out retaliation.

TonyUS,

My remarks in no way suggest that Russia should rule. Try reading without a filter.

Then why blame the US for what Russia has done? Or why make excuses for what Russia has done? There are no excuses for what Russia has done across its borders

TonyUS,

I didn't blame the US. Why suggest that I have?

The reason to make excuses for what Russia has done inheres in your statement that there are no excuses. There are excuses. You simply do not like them.

You may come out and say you do not mean this or that, but your post suggest different. You read them!

I have and stand behind what I get out of them. US this US that and why Russia has done this in response to that.. come on get off the BS. Your post spell out exactly what your thought have been, if not we would not be argueing over these same points being touched on here.

You know perfectly well that all this "ally" garbage is just because of your pipeline and because Bush wants his nukes stationed in Georgia

Just that single statement says it all of your thoughts Sez..

so no reason to take any of your posts serious if you trying to change the meaning of. Your words are well documented unless you can get the moderators to delete them for you. But your stance on Georgia is all in the above post your wrote and the meaning of them is very clear to me and anyone that reads them. so do not back peddle on what is already documented Sez.

Russian military forces and peacekeepers have been in Georgia since the separation, please remember that when some news bulletins make it appear that the Russian forces only entered the country in August. They were there for years, and their withdrawal is unlikely to be very snappy

yes Sez and thay have had no right to be there. So again yousupport of Russia in Georgia where they should not be now or anytime.

.

TonyUS,

I don't think that the two quotes above are mine. I think they are from the poster dammit. So I don't really think that you can use them as being indicative of what I think. If you want me to be hoist on my own petard, at least be sure that it's my petard.

Furthermore, if you were honest I think you would say that my posts suggest to you that I blame the US. They don't suggest that to me. And the fact that I did not say that I blame the US argues more for my not blaming it than it does for your contention that I secretly blame it.

There is a difference between blaming the US for Russia's actions and observing that US military actions grease the skids for Russian ones. As long as you are committed to the notion that there are no excuses for Russia's actions, you will never be able to recognize one. That is the attitude that gets us into unnecessary wars.

Sorry Sez it was dammit with those quotes, just that the two of you where sounding so much alike it was hard to keep the statements separated. But I am seeing your view a little less pro Russia than Dammit's.

But the remark about Georgia being a democracy and has nothing to do with Russia giving military aid to S. Ossetia is still the assumption that S. Ossetia is not part of Georgia and that supporting those in S. Ossetia is the same as supporting separatists and to break Georgia borders up. Supporting separatists on Goergia in not right just as Chechnya that Russia has been attacking as being separatists in the country of Russia, It would be saying that the chetnians also should have military ais because they do not want to be part of Russia. So where is it right to support one and not the other when we are talking regions with in ones country.

TonyUS,

That dammit and I sound so much alike to you seems to me to indicate an inability on your part to draw distinctions. I don't think we sound anything alike except that we exhibit various degrees of sympathy for Russia where you exhibit none.

The remark that Georgia being a democracy has nothing to do with the issue does not rest on any such assumption to the effect that South Ossetia is not part of Georgia. South Ossetia is, by international recognition, a part of Georgia, and it is part of Georgia no matter what Georgia's form of government is. The form of government has nothing to do with the issue of Russia giving military support to South Ossetia.

You are worried about Chechnya? Fine. By all means feel free to give military support to the Chechens in their struggle for independence. However, even ignoring the fact that we would be once more arming Sunni Muslims, reaching across an ocean to arm Chechens against Russia would not be advisable and the US is not a party to that dispute. Russia and Georgia and South Ossetia are parties to the dispute regarding South Ossetia.

Sez.. The correlation is Russia arming rebels in Georgia as would be the same as outside sources arming the rebels in Chechnya against Russia.

This is the same as what Russia would be doing with S. Ossetia. Arming rebels that are against Georgia and being part “of “ Gerogia. Sympathy for Russia?????? Come on. That almost makes me laugh. You are exactly right.. I do have not an once of sympathy for Russia. I find them interferring in Georgia's affairs and not acceptable by any means, and that Russia should have never been in georgia to begin with forcing anything in that country. Goergia has every right to claim all its region and control it where there are Russians , georgians, or any people from anywhere in the world living there. If they are from Russian decent , living in Georgia makes them Gerogians by all means. If someone moves to your country then they are part of your country and live as a citizen of your country.. same with Georgia whether being there before the split or not! These people are in Georgia and if they do not like it, they should get the hell out no ands ifs or buts. No changing any borders or outside forces controling interior areas of Georgia. I find your stand completely a rebel supporting base and support for foriegn occupation of a democratic nation that is based on democratic principles. Nope I feel no sympathy for Russia in the least. Want to read an interesting article?

Dealing with the Russians from a position of weakness is futile By…Joschka Fischer was German foreign minister and vice chancellor from 1998 to 2005 and led Germany’s Green Party for nearly 20 years

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2008/09/07/2003422512

TonyUS,

Your opinion is very clear. Now, please explain how the same reasoning does not apply to Kosovo. Should the Albanians give up and agree to be Serbs or should they clear out and go to Albania?

Once more you drag democracy into this as though it were relevant. I have repeatedly challenged that and you have yet to explain why you think it is relevant. A sovereign nation is a sovereign nation no matter what its form of government.

Your position has been that there are no excuses. My position is that there are excuses and that failing to understand them and misjudging its strength has led the US into a no-win position. If you choose to call that support for Russia, I can't stop you. From my perspective, however, you are simply saying that anyone who recognizes that Russia has excuses is supportive of Russia and that reduces to anyone who disagrees with me agrees with our enemy.

Sez a country based on democracy, explains that the majority of the people of Georgia voted for their president that was elected. Not clear?

As in any democracy, because the minority of the country did not get their man in office does not give them the right to greak away an area. Same within any country. Maters not where these people are from or who they claim to be. If I live in a state that the majority does not want a republican president, my state should break away from the country???? The people of S.Ossetia are sepratists backed by Russia, and that is wrong. I am not completey sure of Georgia's system, but if they have voting for representatives of their area, then they have a voice in a democracy.

Where does democracy come into play in all this.. come on! This is just basic understanding about a democratic based society. Because one does not get their way and the majority won they wish to depart from the country with the territory.. no way!!!!! But then you have big bad Russia supporting such a move? Sorry, I will never agree with that. If anything thepeople should move out of there if they are so dishearted of being part of a country. Someone posted on another article about most of S.Ossetia's population being from Russia, the problem is they were part of the Soviet Union, not Russia, but besides that point there are still those that voted for the president elect and they to are georgian citizens being restricted of their rights within their own country. I guess you and I look at this in a completely different light.

TonyUS,

It's quite clear that the majority of the people of Georgia voted for their president. It's also clear that the majority of the people of Serbia voted for their president.

Georgia, like Serbia, is a democratic republic. South Ossetia, like Kosovo, constitute a minority of the people within that country. If it matters not where the people in South Ossetia are from or who they claim to be, why does it matter in regard to Kosovo?

I don't think I need your analysis of the principles of democracy. What I need is your analysis of how the principles of democracy differ between Georgia and Serbia. I don't think I need your snide comment about "big bad Russia" supporting the breakaway of a province on its border. What I need is your comment about the big bad US supporting the breakaway of a province an ocean away (and then some) from its border. I don't think I need your reasoning that dissident voices in South Ossetia should leave the country if they don't like the results. What I need is your reasoning that dissident voices in Kosovo should not also do the same.

Yes. You and I look at this in an entirely different light. You are incapable of seeing any excuse for Russia to support a separatist movement. And I am incapable of seeing your excuse for ignoring the excuse which is quite obvious for Russia to see.

Well I think you need an understanding of borders, sovereignty, and separatists. You also need to look at Chechnya and S.Ossetia in reference to what ever your stance seems to be as I see you do not like the term "big bad Russia"

As for Georgia this is a convergence on control of their own land from separatist, as for Kosovo we are talking about genocide and the conviction of a leader set out to commit genocide which is absolutely not an issue with Georgia and S,Ossetia.

I just read an article tonight about Chechnya and Russia needs to be very careful of its stance on these Georgian territories because of Russia’s hard stance on Chechnya

Georgia welcomes news of EU-Russia agreement

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2008/09/10/2003422817

“”““Sarkozy told Medvedev: ‘Beware of the principle of self-determination. If the Russians demand it for Abkhazia and Ossetia, the Chechens could also demand it,’” the source said.. “””

I guess I am not the only one to make the comparison. And link of something that falls within the same scenario.

Speaking of Serbia, maybe this is of interest to you..

Serbia ratifies EU, Russia deals

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080909/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_agreements;_ylt=AoYsyqyHg6F8lFQiYRIAiDp0bBAF

To end with these two regions of GEORGIA are inhabited by Georgians as well as So Called Russians with Russian passports that live in Georgia, and always being that of Georgia , the people that are the original citizens of that area of Georgia has no reason in any sense to have their country taken away from them by force from an outside country, naming RUSSIA,then given to those that are not original settlers of that land and because of some immigrants from Soviet Union (Russia) deciding they want to take root their in some point of time there after, that is completely a stance that is pure non-sense!

TonyUS,

Don't be insulting. I think I have an understanding of borders, sovereignty and separatists. But you are right that I do not like the term "big bad Russia". It is pejorative and meaningless.

As far as the issue of genocide in Kosovo is concerned, that was not an issue at the time of the declaration of Kosovan independence unless, of course, you are talking about Albanian attacks on Serbs. And when you say that genocide is absolutely not an issue with Georgia and South Ossetia, I think you are on very shaky ground. Georgia pursued a campaign of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia in the early 90s, burning Ossetian villages and driving Ossetians from the country and even out of Georgia. Despite that, the Ossetians remain a majority in South Ossetia.

The point, however, is that you say Russia has no excuse for supporting the independence of South Ossetia. I say that it not only has an excuse in defending its borders from NATO encroachment but it also has a precedent in Kosovo. The unwillingness to recognize that will not lead to any practical solutions to the problem.

sez we are talking today not the past. Georgia wants control of its land and to impose its form of government that the people od S, Ossetia would be part of.

I do not say Russia has no excuse... I say they have no right imposing its force upon another country , which Georgia is.

It is funny not too long ago we forget the moves by Russia to incorporate into NATO.

It is a shame Russia has slipped back into its thinking in the way of Soviet era... You point that out yourself.

Ao we will have to deal with that and if that means pushing forward NATO membership for the rest, I geess that will have to be the case as with Ukraine.

EU tugs at Ukraine amid concerns about Russia http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_s_neighbors;_ylt=Aq1qVBaMeGMs.3G3b1HZyz50bBAF No one has to put up with a cold war minded Russia, but they will deal with them in all ways neccesary. It is like dealing with the Warsaw pack, but with out Warsaw. What a kick in the pants that is for Russia. All this is a slap in Russia's face as we are seeing.. A whipped pup wanting revenge and that is what Russia is doing and acting as such.. Pethetic of such a country of power. But.. as we see them acting as such we also see who has come into control of the country.. PUTIN the ex KGB man that has reversed many of the accomplishments that has went forward as for social freedoms since the colapse of the Soviet Union that seems to be comming back to the forfront because of Putin and his history of having authority and power under his belt, in the past and of the present and not wanting to let go of that. Now we are seeing the consequences.

TonyUS,

Well we are talking about the past if we are talking about genocide in Kosovo. And if we disallow the past, you would need to come up with a different rationale for ignoring the similarities.

If you now want to say that you did not say that Russia has no excuse, that's fine. Previously I believe you did say that there was no excuse for Russian actions. Unless that post has been deleted, I think I could find it for you if you give me a dollar.

I agree with you that Russia has no right imposing its force upon another country. But if others do, why should it not?

I sad Russia has no excuse for invading a sovereign country, period.

There is a difference with Georgia being a democracy and ruled by law and elections and decisions made by the people. There is no reason Russia should have taken a position in Georgia from the start, from the start I mean when Georgia became an independent state. The people that immigrated or moved to Georgia (S.Ossetia) could have very well settled in with the Georgian government and over time if not liking it there moved back to Russia. There was no reason for Russia to have any presence there from the very beginning, and the people of S. Ossetia live among the rest of the people there and become part of the country and society. It is a democratic country with rights for all and representation for all. Russia from the start has only upheld the situation of that part of the country and supported these people as being encouraged to defy what should have been from the start , Georgia a whole..

Hey Sez this is just the way I see it and what I think would have been right for everyone and Georgia keeping its dignity and right to securing its own borders. I am not saying you have to agree with me, but I just state my case in stressing my position. Sure Russia wants to show some dominance, but I sure do not agree with their dominance being aggression and trying to come in upon a sovereign country that its base is democratic based on the will of the people and that including those Russians that migrated there whether it being before or after the split from the Soviet Union, they are living in Georgia.

TonyUS,

Yes, you said there was no excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country, period.

When you say Russia has no right to do so, I agree. When you say Russia has no excuse for doing so, I disagree and I have stated its excuse.

I think you are using democracy rather like a trump card and I don't believe it is. Even if it were, the exercise of Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia represents the tyranny of democracy: "People over here says that the land over there is ours." South Ossetians do not agree.

Who are the original settlers of S. Ossetia?? The migrants or those of the original land.. That is the point of who should rule this land. I believe the aborigines trump. And yes I state democracy as a main issue in the discussion that the west, "based on democracy", should position itself on and stand by since that is what we have always positioned ourselves as actions we have taken over the years, decades etc.

That would be like saying south Florida, parts of Texas, New Mexico, Parts of California, would have the right to succeed from the union because over the years migrants have taken the majority of the population and demands to be independent and then a few decide that they have that right to do so, saying the country of Mexico, or Cuba and then try and dispatch their military power to make it happen. Of course that would be if Mexico or China had more military power than the US. but that is just a hypothetical situation, but what is happening in Georgia and the actions of Russia in Georgia.. This situation would not be tolerated and seen as being right and this falls right in line why it should never happen in Georgia

If it is the excuse issue, sure Russia will come up with an excuse being right or wrong. I find it wrong and there is no excuse for its actions when it comes to the borders of sovereignty of another country. Whether it is afraid of NATO or not, they wish for all of us to believe they are tough and no one is their threat or can damage them, but that is of course the face of the government and something of a nostalgic sentiment that bares no fruit or they would not be pushing all of this down everyone’s throat. They do not want NATO or the west breathing down their necks and all they can do is try and show force in stopping it. but at the same time they are infringing on another nations sovereignty and borders. I am not sure if you are now trying to support their excuses or just saying they have an excuse? Do you support their excuses? In earlier post I took it as you support the excuses Russia has put forth for going into Georgia where I have taken the position Russia should never have had a presents inside of Georgia from the start and especially driving even further into Georgia in the brief time of war. I stand for Russia to get the heck out of Georgia and the people of S. Osettia be governed by the rightful rulers of the land and that is the rulers of Georgia. If those in S, Ossetia do not like that, they can migrate back to Russia eventually and if Russia cares so much about these people they so claim to do, then give them aid in moving back to Russia if that is where they wish to be ruled by because those in these territories are not all from Russia or at that time they migrated there was of Soviet Union, but also original residents of Georgia, being minority or majority makes no difference what so ever in where the Georgia border is and always has been throughout history.. If any one has right to the land it is the original settlers and not to be desided by force of another country, in this case Russia.

TonyUS,

"Whose land is it?" is a complex question that cannot be solved by asking who the "aborigines" are. Who are the aborigines in the US? Who are they in Australia? in Kosovo?

If democracy is a concern, Georgia was not a democracy when the Ossetians settled in what is now South Ossetia. The Ossetians have not been treated particularly well by Georgians and their desire to separate preceded a functioning democracy in Georgia.

The South Ossetians have a cause and this cause creates a reason for Russian intervention. In other words, contrary to your claim, the Russians have an excuse. It is not that their excuse is unacceptable. It is that it is unacceptable to you.

You asked if I support Russian intervention. My answer is, "Yes and no". It is "no" in that I do not support armed interventions--and democracy has nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned. It is "yes" in that I think Russia is right to resist the expansion of NATO and that when it finds a just cause that will help it do that I think it can make use of that cause.

Who’s land is it?? Is this a joke or what? It was always the border of Georgia until Russia tries to change that border. This is a no brainer!

It is not a fair accusation to say the Ossetians as wanting anything because all the Ossetians are not of Russia as your words try to portray them as being. And if Russia is afraid of NATO then it shows that Russia still is part of the mindset of the west its enemy and if the west is its enemy then it is because has portrayed us as being and is keeping us their enemy.. So the Cold War is still on. Not with Soviet Union but what is left of it.. Big bad Russia.. And no. there is no excuse acceptable to me of Russia’s aggression against a smaller country that is no match to Russia’s power, because I do not support Russia in this case in any manner or in any way. You can if you wish but I sure the hell do not the main reason being, Russia has fallen back towards the government controlled country it was years ago. Also their attitude with Putin has fallen back to cold war tactics and aggression. If this is what you support and stand for , hey that is your problem not mine.

Also democracy means a lot when you support that type of institution and that is the institution in Georgia politics. If you can not bring yourself to support that as well it is another problem of your own, not mine.

As a just cause for Georgia wanting to be a member of NATO??? Another joke??? To stop this crap Russia’s bullying and its attacks upon others..

Now should we go on speculating.. take a look at this report..

Georgia: Intercepted calls prove self-defense http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_re_eu/eu_georgia_russia;_ylt=AhnanXqJKlIdANBWZz2i9P_uOrgF

If this is true any argument of Russia going in to protect its so called Russian citizens which are actually Georgian citizens now, is that of a farce because all Russia has done was invade a neighboring country and for what? Nothing but for the simple reason of trying to provoke a war with Georgia because the leader is western friendly and Russia hates that. If this is true, no one can say that Georgia started anything but the fact would be, Russia was and is the Aggressor!

Russia sounds and act just like the communist regime of China. Lies and deception. paint everyone the aggressor while the blame sits right on the shoulders of the portrayer in this case Russia. Even if this turns out to be false, Russia still had no right to invade Georgia or even have any troops stationed within Georgia's borders from the very beginning.

TonyUS,

Long before it was Georgia, it was Iberia and Colchis. These were kingdoms and not states as we know them today. That land has been fought over, settled and resettled from time immemorial. So, putting your rudeness aside, no, I am not joking. I'll resist comment on the "no-brainer".

I notice also that you did not comment on the first inhabitants of Kosovo, the first inhabitants of Australia, the first inhabitants of the US. If prior and continuous habitation of a land is to be the test, I'd like to know what you would do about these situations and why. Democracy has not played into the border disputes of the past and there is no reason it should play into those at present.

My words do not try to portray Ossetians as anything other than Ossetians. I don't know where you are getting that. It seems to me that you are building a straw man so that you can talk about democracy. Democracy has nothing to do with this except that Georgia would not be considered for NATO membership if it were not.

NATO is now a perverse organization that has outlived its usefulness. If NATO were a sincere organization it would include Russia as one of its members. Russia is infinitely more qualified to be a part of any NATO that is not devoted to the containment of Russia but is instead devoted to encouraging democracy. Bad things happen when you try to punish powerful countries by exclusion or humiliation, as witness the treatment of Germany after WWI and the entirely different treatment after WWII. So, no, and once again not rising to your level of rudeness, I was not joking. The joke, if there is one, is the persistent use of sarcasm as a refutation.

Yes, Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story regarding what happened. Did you ever know a politician to introduce evidence to claim something that was not the case? Let me know when it has been established that the phone intercepts prove what Georgia is now saying. Or should I ask that you let me know when what Georgia is only now saying is proven to be true.

Russia you are a joke with the statement of Russia more to be a member of NAO.. The reason NATO was started because of Russia and its aggression against its neighbors and others like it.

I do not know where your little world is but it has made an impact on you that is far fetched and full of propaganda that is of deceit when it comes to trying to state facts that are nothing but false. Try to twist your statements that mean one thing and try to say they mean something else, Come on… Those that support suppression because of not knowing any better stay this course you are using to make an argument/ I would rather use sarcasm than some remarks that have nothing but deception stated within them.

Is it Georgia trying to change the story or is it Putin and his goons lying? Seems you know the answer to that before the truth is even found out. Congratulations on your inside info..

As aborigines go I am stating at this time SEZ…are those people that did not immigrate from screwed up Russia during the Soviet era, those that have ancestral ties to the land and yes there are those that live there which may be a minority at this time from the infiltration of Russians but they are still there and have every right to stay there and be part of the country of Georgia, but not in your twisted view of the matter. Oh you never said that?? Hahaha Yeah right. Now you say the Russians you have been defending are Georgians,, What the heck or where the heck did that come from? Well why the hell do they have Russian passports and this was in one of your posts that was a reason they neede to be protected, beez you are all over the place SEZ. Your words and statements or so contradicting and just getting down right pathetic.

Seems you want to jump all over the idea that Russia is telling the truth and deny any assumption Georgia is lying and Russia is to blame.. Which Russia is to blame for all of this because they never left Independent Georgia to begin with. So your argument does not even have a base to start with/ Russia has been the main instigator from the very beginning and that is a statement of FACT. Take it as being rude if you wish but the truth is the truth like it or not. No trying to sugar coat the demon that is raising its head and there are many allies rethinking Russia's aggressive stance in the region , even Australia considering stopping sales of Uranium to them because of all this going on.. Sorry to say but you are standing with the losers and those seen as the one to instigate their own separation from the world and its affairs.. I know you just cannot stand that.. Big bad Russia is going back to its rightful position in the world to be Mr. Putin’s long time retraction of a society that is a friend to the world.. Putin started the reversal from the first time he became president with his KGB background leading his direction for the country. Too bad the people are willing to go back to where they fell from in the past.

Call me rude?? It is fine I have heard China supporters attack those opposed to communist rule the same way.. I have debated many propagandists in the past mainly from China but here on this issue with Russia you are definitely a pro Russia propagandist, as for trying to twist statements you have made into meaning something other than what they were originally and to support another country invading another smaller less powerful one , it shows your remarkable sence of big guy controlling the little one. Oh you did not say that directly? :) It is being said with every one of your posts, twist it as you wish but the meaning is plain.

TonyUS,

Yes, NATO was started because of Soviet aggression. That is exactly why Russia is upset. Today's Russia is not yesterday's USSR but that is the lens through which the West continues to view Russian actions.

You disparagingly speak of my "little world" in a tone which is nothing if not rude. And in the same paragraph you speak disparagingly of those who support suppression. The Georgians support suppression of the South Ossetians, Ossetian culture and the Ossetian language.

Putin and his "goons" (notice how you use language that totally prejudices your arguments) may be lying. However, with the information about phone intercepts, Georgia is definitely trying to change the story. I don't know what actually happened--perhaps no more than you do--but I do know what the established story is: Georgia moved against Tskhinvali and then Russia responded. It could be true that Georgia is trying to correct that account. It is definitely true that Georgia is trying to change it.

Your paragraph about "aborigines" is incoherent to me. The one thing that is clear from it is your contention that the Georgian minority have every right to enjoy Georgian customs and Georgian culture within the historic borders of Georgia. As before, however, you do not explain why that does not apply to the "aboriginal" Serbs in Kosovo. Nor do you explain how your concept of aboriginality applies to other countries and other cultures--Australia, the US, etc. Furthermore, you seem to suggest that the Georgian minority have the only claim to these lands, which, I think is not true. The Ossetians were driven into that area by the Huns, settled in an area called Kudar which is now part of South Ossetia. Ossetian claims in that particular part of the world are long and strong. Moreover, in this same paragraph, you say that I am now saying that the Russians I have been defending are Georgians. That is simply incorrect and I challenge you to find any textual support for that.

You say that I want to "jump all over" the claim that Russia is telling the truth and Georgia is lying. That also is not correct. At the risk of being repetitive, I do not know who is telling the truth, but I do know what the established story is. I also know that the "phone-intercept" story hasn't gained much traction. Furthermore, you state as fact that Russia has been the prime instigator of all the problems in Georgia. That is not a fact. That is your supposition. Georgia faces legitimate ethnic problems from within and Georgia has dealt with these in a heavy-handed manner.

Yes, I call you rude. I call you rude because you do not argue the points. Instead you use colored language, you disparage your interlocutor instead of defeating his points, you run from questions that are posed of you and demand the primacy of your own questions and your right to introduce prejudicial statements as fact. That is not only rude but a bit boorish as well. If you can manage to elevate the standard of your dialogue we can talk more on this point later. At this point, however, you offer only fulmination and not argument.

Sez it is Russia's actions and their system that has faltered back to controls and its aggressive actions. .. And Why you defend such a government that has backpeddles on reforms.. There is something you are not telling. This is where you want to deny democracy as a part of this. Georgia is a democracy set with in invaded borders as we witness today SEZ.. A country set by laws and of the will of its people within these borders and S. Ossetia is within these borders and not of RUSSIA.Get it?? That is not too hard of a point to let settle in. Look at a map if you need it more defined..watch the news they will show you a map of the borders and where S. Ossetia lies. Within these borders lies a government that is voted in by the majority vote of the people... Still with me??? Now where did I miss something when it comes to soverienty of a country?? Tell me where you bring Russia ahaving a right to be within Georgia's borders with a government in place and voted into place for that country by the majority of the country. S,Ossetia is full of separatists along with incividuals that are for a united government that was elected in by even some of these people that live in S. Ossetia that do not have Russian passports.. that you say has claim to????? What is that statement all abuout.. Again get you a map and look at the borders that Russia has trampled over and from the beginning stayed within.

again Exactly .,. the Georgians you are Georgians that migrated there during the Soviet Union

here is one of your post that you say you are not sure of now but was earlier..as you said above...

Furthermore, you seem to suggest that the Georgian minority have the only claim to these lands, which, I think is not true.

TonyUS,

I don't know how many times that I have to say that I know that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. No matter how many times you repeat this fact, it adds nothing to your argument. No matter how many times you suggest that I don't know this fact, it adds nothing to your argument.

here is where your assumption that Georgia is lying and now say you did not take a stance as such

Yes, Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story regarding what happened. Did you ever know a politician to introduce evidence to claim something that was not the case? Let me know when it has been established that the phone intercepts prove what Georgia is now saying. Or should I ask that you let me know when what Georgia is only now saying is proven to be true. But you do not say prove that Russia's story is the truth and that it is an established story when it is only Russia that come out with that statatement, I seen where there was anything to back that as being the truth .only Russia's statement.

I'm also aware of that South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia.

And who are S, Ossetians??? You are wrong.. not all wish that , it may be the majority there but those are migrants from Soviet Union which is the majority and the arguement has been all along that Russia's actions was to protect these people with Russian passports as if these people are Russian citizens, and they are not. Your littel twist here is trying to catagorize them as Ossetians instaed of Georgians, in which they are, but for some reason have Russian passports instead of Georgian passports.

I do not argue the points? All I list are points and facts while you want your words to mean one thing until you are confronted on them, then you say you d id notmean it in that text but something different.. just have to shake my head. You are all over the place SEZ even when it comes to your own statements.

As for who planned what and who was first to act, no has proven anything on either side so let us see the proof from one of them to confirm their statements as to the order of events. No one knows if there has been no proof brought forward including Russia.

W

TonyUS,

I find your post to be toxic. The quotations that you use to try to prove that I am being inconsistent instead prove that you do not understand and that, in fact, you are not even paying attention. If you could manage to make an argument without making it personal, we could continue this little discussion. But instead you seem to want to make this personal and have chosen to adopt a sophomoric style of rebuttal. You do not even afford the courtesy required by the guidelines of the message board.

Let's just take two cases in point, focusing on the first two instances in which you have used my words to try to demonstrate imaginary inconsistency:

First, there is no inconsistency between saying that Ossetians have a claim to the land and that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. If you are going to argue aboriginality, Ossetians have a claim. If you are going to argue current legality, South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. This is really not very difficult to understand.

Second, the long quote beginning with "Yes, Georgia is trying to change..." is incorrectly attributed to me. Part of those words I have written. Another part was written by someone else. If this is not dishonesty on your part then it indicates sloppy thinking and faulty reasoning.

If you will pay closer attention you will find that I have never said that Georgia is lying and I have never reversed my position. What I said was:

(a) Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story. This does not assert truth to the prevailing story, and

(b) Georgia's version of the story could be true.

Again, there is no inconsistency.

Your argument against my points is predicated on statements that I have never made. You attribute sinister motives to me because I do not believe that it makes a difference that Georgia is a democracy and when I say that the right or wrong of Russian action has nothing to do with the form of Georgia's government. You abuse the privilege of using my screen name, using it far too often for common politeness and capitalizing it to make some imaginary point and you attempt to patronize me with your "Get it?"s and other snotty jibes.

I think we're done here. I have always tried to disagree without being personally disagreeable, but you are determined to be disagreeable and in the future I shall happily make an exception in your case.

yes sez this is dumb to continue an arguement when you and I will never see eye to eye on the issue, Just as Russia does not see eye to eye with The US Europe or any other western democracy or those that are western allies even Australia. Seems there are not too many that stands with you and Russia on this point. Even China wich I demise stays silent on this issue because of the well deserved sepratists that could benifit in that country from what Russia is standing for there in Georgia. Russia is not getting much support from any where except from those that are threats to democracies around the world still today. Like a new Warsaw pact but with out the democratic Warsaw of today, but same idiology of that group in the past.