Russia stages WW2 victory parade as Ukraine bristles

ts historical fact that prior to the Soviet invasion in The Winter War, Finland along with Denmark, Sweden & Norway were neutral counties.

Unfortunately not. Of course you can ask why USSR had so many enemy before the WW2?

But this is other question, very good one. From the beginning it was a problem - Germany Turkey and Austro Hungary were bad guys so they lost some territories and that's was relatively logical.

BUT Russia was on a right side during WW1 - so why Russia should lost something as a result of this war? I don't understand.

A lot of territories were taken from Russia by ex-allies when Russia was in full disorder as a result of heavy losses during that glorious was.

So if England and France wanted freedom for Finland - they should making war not against Germany but upon Russia and win this war

So when USSR was strong again , the question with ex- Russian provinces like Finland arose again.

Yes it's sad and very compicated story. But Russia in 1917- 1918 had no choise.

Olegek Wrong 1 Finland never was neutral to Soviet Union before 1939. This land was 100 % anti-Soviet. Sad but truth. 2 Before the First World War it was a part of Russian Empire and Russian Empire was on the "right side of history" (with Britain and France) but as a result of war and disorder (and ex-ally agression, lost more than bad Germany) 3 The "new border" with Finald passed 32 kilometers from Leningrad (second Russian city after Moscow) 4 The Second World War was started 7 July 1937

Its historical fact that prior to the Soviet invasion in The Winter War, Finland along with Denmark, Sweden & Norway were neutral counties. There might of been anti sentiment among Finns towards the Soviets, but they weren't plotting a war against them.

I know very well that it was a part of the Russian Empire, and before that it was part of Sweden.However Finland gained something called independence on 6th December 1917.

And Finland lost towns and territories due to a invasion that was deemed illegal and got the Soviets thrown out of the League of Nations.

Seriously? Its started on 1st September 1939.

Democracy is a sham. The average voter, at least here in America, is too ignorant to know what the hell they want.

Yes, you can be sorry as much as you want but you can't wish away evidence because it makes you feel ashamed. You can try spinning it, misrepresenting the evidence until you're blue in the face but you're very squarely on the losing side of this argument Your own government has recognized that the Soviets were responsible for the Katyn massacres

OK when in North Korea leader says that's it's going to rain - all take out umbrellas.

What weather we will have tomorrow , darling ? - what national leader says ?

Unluckily Russia is not North Korea.

As a usual people in Russia have their own opinion regardless official position - it is strange but it is so.

(old national tradition - to support government but to have own opinion)

So about Katyn' Massacres - simple people very interested - what REALLY had happened ?

Official position formed according the current political situation.

All these people are dead now and people who killed them also are dead now (mostly).

In one hand it's a historical question in other hand political.

The main problem - it's not proved that NKVD responsible for this event.

The documents about this showed in 90th (late Soviet and post-Soviet era) were faked.

So till now it's a riddle.

But Stalin, the NKVD were no choir boys

So it's official Polish position - they were a bad boys - so they have done this.

This unscientific - when we talking about history and not about political games.

Sorry - you have no doubts it's OK. But your opinion it's not a fact. It's only opinion.

Yes, you can be sorry as much as you want but you can't wish away evidence because it makes you feel ashamed. You can try spinning it, misrepresenting the evidence until you're blue in the face but you're very squarely on the losing side of this argument. Your own government has recognized that the Soviets were responsible for the Katyn massacres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

And, again, what's your point? No one is denying the courage and sacrifice of the Russian people in the face of Nazi onslaught. All kudos to the Russian soldier. But Stalin, the NKVD were no choir boys. They were ruthless, murderous... The Soviet Union was a totalitarian state that murdered millions. NO amount of revisionism or Soviet era textbooks can turn the USSR into the worker's paradise it never was. So sorry, dude, them's the facts.

gcbel Not sure what the point is in denying it. But to be clear there's no doubt that the NKVD murdered thousands of Polish prisoners. It's a fact. Get over it.

Sorry - you have no doubts it's OK. But your opinion it's not a fact. It's only opinion.

Michail Gorbachev was a politician (not very successful one) . Not a historian or NKVD -veteran.

In some political situation he made some assumption.

But if some historical event took place in modern world and lot of people were killed during this event....

A lot of physical evidence, documents, traces,proofs ... you know what I mean?

Political declaration - is a political declaration. No more no less.

By the way in Russia it's a very popular theme of historical researches - all Polish were killed from German pistols (not Russian)

Various bullets of different diameters. Hands of victims were tied with twine which was a German one. In Russia, the standard was hemp rope.

So it's sounds like police investigation and not a political statement ?

When Germany was losing the war, German people were rushing to surrender at the Western Allies side because they know how they'd be treated by the Russians in the East, whom Germany betrayed when they invaded Russia.

First - somebody need to prove it - these bodies were found by Nazi on the territory long time controlled by Nazi

Not sure what the point is in denying it. But to be clear there's no doubt that the NKVD murdered thousands of Polish prisoners. It's a fact. Get over it.

In 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted that the NKVD had executed the Poles and confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn: Mednoye and Piatykhatky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

MarkG "the Soviets were terrible.The spared nothing...many suicides of raped women from the soviets...your history needs accuracy".

Excuse me, but your history needs accuracy. Do you wanna know about true behavior of US troops in occupied territory of Germany? About true rapists in US uniform? How US troops managed the occupied territory? Please, read a book of Ausralian Osmar White 'Conqueror's Road: Eyewitness of Germany 1945'.

He wrote, that Soviets managed seized Berlin way better, than it would be under Americans. Russians gave civilians food, water, Russian administration quickly re-opened caffes, restaurants, shops, cinemas. Local newspapers continued to print. In particular, Osmar White wrote : ' Of all occupying powers, Americans showed themselves most inept at the business of governing occupied country. They maintained little or no continuity policy.They never succeed in making up their minds whether they wanted to administer stern justice or indulge Christ-like charity. They did not, indeed, make up their minds about anything except of 'superiority' of their own intentions.'

It seems very familiar to known events on Okinawa, right?

MarkG Olegek, Katyn was a slaughter by the soviet army. A mass grave was excavated in the Ukraine a few years ago supporting this

First - somebody need to prove it - these bodies were found by Nazi on the territory long time controlled by Nazi

in the same moment when Nazi need something " interesting".

Sorry - it's a very old legend.

By the way you can find a lot of mass grave at the ex-Soviet territory occupied by Nazi

really lot of these graves... Millions people were killed ...

Yamasaki, the soviets were terrible. They spared nothing. Perhaps Kraków was spared but the march to Berlin was devastating to Poles and Germans. The soviet/ Japanese conflict resulted in soviet real estate gains! In less than a month of war with Japan they claimed Japanese territory.

They know that Soviets turned out much better soldiers than Americans were in WWII.

Perhaps your history needs accuracy. Many suicides in Germany of raped women from the soviets. Stalin was an evil killer, what gain would he have in enforcing a shoot to kill order of his army? Stalin is not a man to be respected in any way.

@lostrune2 "should do it; parade thousand of NATO troops, tanks, nukes, bombers etc"

Too late for NATO to create such a tradition. All that EU can represent are gay parades on streets of european cities.

@MarkG "as the red army advanced into Germany they raped girls"

Oh, raped girls? You have confused Soviets to Americans on Okinawa. In days of Soviet offensive operation in Gernany, Stalin's orders told to shoot at a place any looter or rapist. There were isolated incidents only.

"and pillaged the towns all the way and in Berlin"

Perhaps, you studied this plain lie in American school. In reality history says, while rolling back, NAZIs tried to explode the whole city of Krakow. Soviets saved the city. As for Berlin, still there is a Statue of Soviet Liberator there. They say, every year people of Berlin bring flowers to the Statue. Were Soviets "ruthless", berliners would never do it. Though, I can understand endless desperate attempts of Americans to re-write and whitewash history. They know that Soviets turned out much better soldiers than Americans were in WWII.

@noryosan73 "the Red Square, the most hated image of the Cold War"

Never heard about the most hated image of the Cold War. Is that taken from U.S. history textbook?

It is interesting to note that when the USA, the Allies, and Japan recognized the end of a terrible war, the people cam together at cemeteries and monuments. Russia, i.e. Putin, NK and China celebrated by bringing out all the dangerous military equipment and soldiers for a parade in Red Square, the most hated image of the Cold War. Get the message? Today, it has been reported the the Russian soldiers stationed in the Ukraine are abandoning their assignment. Just another way for Putin to save face, withdraw, and prove the "volunteers" were not under the control of Putin.

Olegek, Katyn was a slaughter by the soviet army. A mass grave was excavated in the Ukraine a few years ago supporting this. As the red army advanced into Germany they raped the girls and pillaged the towns all the way and in Berlin. They were ruthless.

True story from a former German POW captured on the eastern front I knew years ago. As the red army captured the Germans they shot on the spot any SS troops. Uniform didn't hide them. They pulled the sleeve up to see the tatoo, if you had one, an immediate gunshot to the head. When he was released after the war from Siberia they let him out the gate and pointed to the west and said walk. This poor guy walked back to Germany. Likely stole food along the way he had no money.

W/O the supplies from the allied nations the soviets would not have been victorious. Germans cut the transportation arteries for supplies, the west provided transportation equipment for materials to reconnect those arteries for the soviet factories.

LagunaMAY. 10, 2015 - 10:31PM JST In 1939 Soviet Union only returned territories, grabbed by Poland in 1920-21 during Russian Civil War. Not true. Those territories were in present-day Ukraine. Nazi Germany and Russia under Stalin had agreed to eliminate the Polish state entirely. I suggest you reference "katyn massacre" for details.

1 Yes those territories in present day Ukraine (part of ex -Soviet Union) Most population of these lands in 1939 were Ukrainians and Belarus.

2 Katyn Massacre - really interesting thing - this event was widely promoted by Josef Goebbels after Stalingrad defeat in 1942

In such situation Nazi badly needed something "special" to save reputation ....Reich Minister of Propaganda was a great man...

Nice words, only one mistake - not in 1939, but in 1938 (Munchen), when UK, France and Poland refused Soviet proposals of a coalition against Hitler. The Munich Agreement in hindsight might not have been the best, with its greatest strength being that it bought time for Britain to rearm.

As a result of Munich Hitler received Czechoslovakia - a real arsenal - Czech military production can be compared to British.

Imagine if Western nations paraded thousands of their troops and weapons

Hmmm, Bastille Day in France? Air shows? Anyway, what's wrong with the concept of military parades?

Those are not thousands of troops and weapons.

Not wrong about it really; that's why they should do it; parade thousands of NATO troops, tanks, nukes, bombers, etc. Japan should do it too.

Laguna KariHaruka, Russia invaded Poland just 16 days after the Nazis, on September 17, as part of the Russia-German agreement known as the Molotov-Rippentrop Pact even before it invaded Finland. In fact, Russia was the only country to emerge from the war with territorial gains

To spare some time it's always better to get the whole picture first.

17 September 1939 Polish government run to Romania - to this time Polish Army was totally destroyed, battle for Polish capital Warsaw started 8 September.

So 17 September 1939 - it was no more Polish government Polish Army and Polish state.

British Empire and France (Polish official Allies) declared war but had done nothing real to save Poland

And of course Stalin wanted to keep Wehrmacht as far as possible from Moscow.

USA have Atlantic Ocean even Britain have English Channel... Russia have nothing of this sort of things...

By the way from April to August 1939 - it was a negotiations between USSR and England and France...

BUT Western Powers had no intention to sign some serious document against 3 th Reich...

This historical period - really VERY interesting...

Nazi Germany and Russia under Stalin had agreed to eliminate the Polish state entirely

Laguna@ And why Stalin should have defend Polish state? It backstabbed Russia during the Civil war, and it was extremely anti-Soviet in 20-s and 30s. Payback time.

The Munich Agreement in hindsight might not have been the best, with its greatest strength being that it bought time for Britain to rearm

Replace " Munich Agreement" with "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact", and "Britain" with USSR, result would be the same. Hitler was too anti-communist and too anti-Slavic to be an ally of USSR. I suggest you be more objective, my friend.

The sacrifice of 27 million Soviets in the war against Fascism can and will never be forgotten. That said, please don't expect my fellow Poles and I to be particularly enthusiastic about the role the USSR played in WWII.

KariHaruka Wrong. The war began for the Soviets in November 1939 when they decided to invade the then neutral Finland.

Wrong

1 Finland never was neutral to Soviet Union before 1939. This land was 100 % anti-Soviet. Sad but truth.

2 Before the First World War it was a part of Russian Empire and Russian Empire was on the "right side of history" (with Britain and France) but as a result of war and disorder (and ex-ally agression, lost more than bad Germany)

3 The "new border" with Finald passed 32 kilometers from Leningrad (second Russian city after Moscow)

4 The Second World War was started 7 July 1937

'Not to belittle their sacrifices, but a bit more spine shown against Hitler in 1939 would likely have saved much trouble down the line.'

In all fairness, that sentence could apply to the US.

In 1939 Soviet Union only returned territories, grabbed by Poland in 1920-21 during Russian Civil War.

Not true. Those territories were in present-day Ukraine. Nazi Germany and Russia under Stalin had agreed to eliminate the Polish state entirely. I suggest you reference "katyn massacre" for details.

Nice words, only one mistake - not in 1939, but in 1938 (Munchen), when UK, France and Poland refused Soviet proposals of a coalition against Hitler.

The Munich Agreement in hindsight might not have been the best, with its greatest strength being that it bought time for Britain to rearm. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was more of an alliance; it resulted in a 400% increase in Russian-German trade, without which Hitler would not have had the means to invade France. You are talking apples and oranges, my friend.

Imagine if Western nations paraded thousands of their troops and weapons

Hmmm, Bastille Day in France? Air shows? Anyway, what's wrong with the concept of military parades?

Russia invaded Poland just 16 days after the Nazis, on September 17

Laguna@ In 1939 Soviet Union only returned territories, grabbed by Poland in 1920-21 during Russian Civil War.

Not to belittle their sacrifices, but a bit more spine shown against Hitler in 1939 would likely have saved much trouble down the line

Nice words, only one mistake - not in 1939, but in 1938 (Munchen), when UK, France and Poland refused Soviet proposals of a coalition against Hitler. Then Poland along with Hitler even took part in partition of Czechoslovakia, annexing the region of Teschen.

KariHaruka, Russia invaded Poland just 16 days after the Nazis, on September 17, as part of the Russia-German agreement known as the Molotov-Rippentrop Pact even before it invaded Finland. In fact, Russia was the only country to emerge from the war with territorial gains. Not to belittle their sacrifices, but a bit more spine shown against Hitler in 1939 would likely have saved much trouble down the line.

Imagine if Western nations paraded thousands of their troops and weapons.............

Many Russians saw the West’s boycott as disrespect. An estimated 27 million Soviet citizens were killed in the war, which began for the Soviet Union when the Nazis invaded in 1941

Wrong. The war began for the Soviets in November 1939 when they decided to invade the then neutral Finland.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has used the anniversary to whip up anti-Western sentiment

Ugly lie of authhor of the article. On the Euronews there was footage of the parade ceremony, Putin in his speech expressed gratitude to the allies, countries that helped in the war - USA, UK and France. Does not sound like "anti-Western sentiment" to me.

He's isolated from the world's most democratic countries. How many friends does Putin have?

paulinusa@ Putin wisely stays away from a bunch of countries that started several major wars in the past two decades. And how many real friends Obama and Cameron have, without arms-twisting?

Russians are indeed pretty tough soldiers. Able to use the brutal russian winters to their advantage & slowly defeated the Nazis.

'However you feel about Russia, they generally get a LOT LESS credit than they deserve for stopping the Nazis.

If it weren't for the BAMF Russkies, WWII would have lasted a LOT LONGER and probably had a much different outcome.'

Great post. It's always worth pointing out the fact that the west has always attempted to skip over the enormous sacrifices the people of the then Soviet Union made in WW2 and suffered a death toll which dwarfed that of the US and European counties. I'm not a great fan of the 'what if?' history books but as you pointed out, if the Soviet Union had fallen to the Nazis, things could have turned out very differently.

Regardless of you views on Putin, the millions of who died deserve far greater acknowledgement and respect outside of Russia.

There is no point of Poroshenko to "bristle" unless he wishes that the Nazis won (as did a lot of a lot Ukrainian nationalists, who also caused unspeakable crimes against humanity). Ukrainians were part of the Red Army and Navy that defeated Hitler. Poroshenko and Co. can tear down all the WWII Soviet monuments they want and put up as many monuments honoring the collaborationists,but, as we say in Japan, you can't change history.

That the Western Powers chose to boycott boycott Russia's celebration of 70th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany show what short-sighted little jackasses their leaders really are.

And major assistance from the allied nations to the Soviets go ignored? The materials and equipment sent to them were vital.

There's another way to view that "material and equipment". Checkbook diplomacy - you know, that thing the West lambasted Japan on.

And major assistance from the allied nations to the Soviets go ignored? The materials and equipment sent to them were vital.

Did that tank stall again??

@paulinusa "I would rather live in the countries boycotting "

Could you explain a reason to be proud of ? For example, when I invite my friend to celebrate, he comes, showing respect both to me and to himself. If he refuses, that is not my problem because the celebration is going on anyway. There are enough happy guests except him. And I don't care whether he enough "democratic" or not. I suppose, nobody there, in Moscow cried and felt sorrow being aware that a few moronic persons from western countries refused to accept the invitation for celebration. Simple, as that.

the world runs on business not politics- otherwise Ukraine would not be happening, neither would Chinese expansion, the crumbling of the middle east etc.

though countries were deriding Russia, France stopped deliver of a naval vessel only at the last minute due to the pressure it was getting from other eu countries. The UN kept contracting with Russia the whole time. most of the restrictions placed on Russia are targeted on a few men and what they have outside the country- not on the country itself.

EU wants it's natural gas and other products and was quite willing to sacrifice the Crimea - remember Putin admits now he put troops in to take it - but no uproar. , no uproar over the commercial jet, heck the west will probably allow them to take everything east of the Dnieper

However you feel about Russia, they generally get a LOT LESS credit than they deserve for stopping the Nazis.

If it weren't for the BAMF Russkies, WWII would have lasted a LOT LONGER and probably had a much different outcome.

Everything is relative, East or West. I would rather live in the countries boycotting (which by the way includes Japan)

@paulinusa Because you are allowed to vote freely the two biggest political parties controlled by the lobbies which they are gonna follow their orders, doesn't means you live in the most democratic countries.

Putin has said fascism could be on the rise again

He'd know a thing or two about that!

"Putin doesn't seem as "isolated" as Obama claims."

He's isolated from the world's most democratic countries. How many friends does Putin have?