Ukraine rebels hand over MH17 black boxes, call ceasefire

The Ukrainian government wants to push hard on this "terrorist" label for the rebels, but there has been no credible evidence that the plane was intentionally targeted because of its civilian status...

Fadamor -- fair point, so long as you are limiting your reason for calling these thugs "terrorists" is strictly due to the shooting down of the plane. IMO, and by many accepted definitions, these goons could be called terrorists for many other things, like storming government buildings with AK-47's, dressed in uniforms with no insignias/wearing masks to protect their identities. They have used intimidation and coercion of the public -- like during the supposed referendum --to attain political ends. Hence terrorists.

If there was a Ukrainian jet flying not far from the air liner I'm willing to bet that the rebels took a pot shot with a Russian supplied missile and missed the primary target. The fighter would have had countermeasures to defend against a missile that caused the missile to go astray as well. That's why they're busy hacking up the front of the plane and carting it away. A forensic analysis of the metal would pin down the direction of impact and the type of explosive. There might even be identifiable parts of the missile. But not after the rebels get done sanitizing the area.

Sounds like nobody should be flying over Ukraine right now. At least not the eastern bit.

There is no such thing as "the Donetsk Republic", except in the eyes of the terrorists and their Russian handlers.

The Ukrainian government wants to push hard on this "terrorist" label for the rebels, but there has been no credible evidence that the plane was intentionally targeted because of its civilian status. If anything, all the evidence so far points to a huge mistake on the part of the missile commander. Ukrainian officials say they have recordings of conversations in advance of the missile launch talking about shooting down an airliner, but unlike the recordings made right after the disaster, those "shows intent" recordings have not been submitted for authentication.

I,m no defender of Russia but there are too many twits in this story...eg. why did the MA flight alter course and drop altitude to within the BUK missile range when the original flight plan ( 35 thousand feet would have been safe ), why was there a Ukranian fighter jet tracking the MA flight , why were there 3-4 Ukranian air defence battalions equipped with BUK missiles deployed near Donetsk held rebel area when the rebels have no airplanes...?

Speaking as a pilot, course deviations from the approved clearance almost always are due to weather-related issues. Ditto for altitude changes while in the cruise portion of flight. Thunderstorms along the intended route can cause course deviations and turbulence at the assigned altitude can result in the pilot asking for an altitude change.

As far as there being BUK launchers facing Russia, the rebels may not have aircraft, but the Russian military backing them DOES. Do you REALLY expect the world to forget that it was the Russian military who blockaded and captured the Crimean penninsula? After that, I'd have MY SAMs pointing at the aggressor's country as well.

(All the red herring discussion about the plane being shot down by a fighter jet.)

A nice exercise in fantasy, but in order for it to work you have to forget that surveillance (a.k.a. "spy") satellites belonging to countries OTHER than Ukraine recorded the IR plume of the SAM launch in/near rebel-held Snizhne, Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/barbarastarrcnn/status/491559153559932928/photo/1

Besides, if there was a fighter of ANY nationality within 5 kilometers of MH17, why wasn't IT targeted by the BUK launcher and shot down? It certainly would act more like a threat to the rebels than a large plane flying straight and level. Yet there was no mention in the authenticated recordings of a second aircraft. RED HERRING.

If the speed drops first, and then - the altitude, it is less powerful AAM (or gun). If both speed and altitude drop sharply at the same time, or, the recorder data stop suddenly, usually SAM is the culprit.

According to information, provided by this release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

it looks out like the jet was downed by AAM (or aircraft gun).

forzaducati:

The flight recorder is not going to tell us anything else than how the plane was performing and the cockpit voice recorder will let us in on some colloquial conversation between the pilots perhaps, which then stops abruptly. That's it. Only from the wreckage, specialists might be able to determine how the plane was shot down, with what and from which direction and somehow I don't think that that will be possible or even allowed.

Yes, and no, it depends. But, usually, the flight recorder will hint whether the plane was hit by SAM (surface-to-air) or AAM (air-to-air) missile (or fighter plane's machine gun). If the speed drops first, and then - the altitude, it is less powerful AAM (or gun). If both speed and altitude drop sharply at the same time, or, the recorder data stop suddenly, usually SAM is the culprit. This information should be augmented with the findings in the wreckage, corpses, luggage. SAM's warheads are full with many shrapnel - small metallic pieces - balls (as S-200, S-300), or cubes (as Buk). SAM is radar-guided and detonates remotely (for Buk - about 17m from the target) and destroys it via hypersonic rain of these small deadly shrapnel. They leave specific textures of holes on a quite big area of fuselage, human bodies, etc. (as with Siberia Air Tu-154 Flight 1812, shoot down by Ukrainian army over Black sea in 2001). Also, some of these shrapnel remain in parts of fuselage, corpses and luggage after the crash, and could be thoroughly investigated. On the other hand, warheads of AAM (as R-60 and R-70) are usually filled with metallic rods. Their traces are very specific too, and they are scattered mainly around the engine area of the plane (S-60 has infrared guidance). So, investigation could prove was it SAM, AAM, or none of them.

Sure, we don't have access to everything out there, and quite significant part around the engines is burned out (where both SAM and AAM traces, if any, could be), but from my own observation of the photos of the crash site, I can say that I haven't seen anything that hints about damage inflicted by SAM (Buk). I hope the investugatirs will find the reason of this tragedy soon.

Yet again, Obama schools Republicans on how to maturely manage diplomacy.

This guy hit it right on the head: http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

"Did you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?"

Has this guy been reading Japan Today forums? heh.

Good article overall. He talks about the dangers of how Putin has trapped himself into a world comprised of conspiracy theories. The problem is that the Russians can't take effective measures because it would expose how reality doesn't match up with what their state controlled media is peddling. So the media does all the talking and Putin is left with fuzzy statements like "it happened in the Ukraine so they are responsible." It creates odd situations where people are supposedly getting slaughtered on the Russian border in a grand American scheme yet it somehow wouldn't be prudent for Russia to send in troops.

We have the same kind of people here in the US, people like Alex Jones. But in our society people like him are marginalized and they exist on the fringe. In short, we can spot them as nutjobs supported by losers. In Russia they are running the show, and now the show is running Putin.

Just google that incident last year with that drunk Russian diplomat in The Hague.

Judging about relations between two countries upon one isolated incident with that "drunk diplomat" is a bit strange if not childish.

They didn't want our cheese and butter anymore

So, you think that Russians dislike you? Then why they placed flowers to Dutch embassy ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awIiqtnZeMA

The flight recorder is not going to tell us anything else than how the plane was performing and the cockpit voice recorder will let us in on some colloquial conversation between the pilots perhaps, which then stops abruptly. That's it. Only from the wreckage, specialists might be able to determine how the plane was shot down, with what and from which direction and somehow I don't think that that will be possible or even allowed.

Interesting notions, about those false accusations against Russia by America and their European puppet regimes. Disappointed that Obama and Merkel haven't beaten up or even shot any journalists and/or mere ordinary citizens yet for opposing their views.

This whole melee going on in Ukraine is all Ukraine's own fault of course. And America's. The CIA was behind it too, albeit just for the heck of it. They helped to kick out a corrupt president, Putin's personal friend and friends are supposed to help each other in times of need, plus the prospect of having a neighbouring country joining the EU and possibly NATO would never have been tolerated by Russia. They had to swallow a recalcitrant Poland already, but they don't speak Russian, so they are of the hook for now. People like Putin are not going to lose sleep over a couple of hundred people shot out of the skies, it merely interferes a tad in their greater scheme of things. But they are near schezophrenic about having another western leaning country next door, which used to be their province no less! Putin has these delusions of grandeur, of returning Russia to whatever he thinks it once was and isn't anymore. Hope he isn't thinking about the Stalin era.

Putin's plane was flying near flight MH17. Really? Was he on his way to the capital of The People's Republic of Donetsk? I very much doubt that, since even the Russian media thought this wouldn't fly and dispelled this little conspiracy theory.

Yes, Russia is, for the Netherlands at least, an important trading partner, as long as we sing their tune. Just google that incident last year with that drunk Russian diplomat in The Hague. They didn't want our cheese and butter anymore, sniff, it was deemed not to be fit for even dogs to consume. And for good measure, a Dutch diplomat stationed in Moscow was roughed up. As a tit-for-tat so to speak, plus the complementary beating then. Only after we kissed Putin's butt till it turned pink, were the Netherlands once more their "important trading partner". Also interesting to note is that embassies in The Hague were flying their flags half mast out of respect for this plane disaster, except at the embassy of this important trading partner.

Probably Putin and the Russian military will be more careful with who they entrust with these missiles from now on.

Putin sure didn't see this one coming. Whoever the schemer was, was good or maybe accidentally good.

jerseyboy

You are right, you're not my mate, I apologize for my casual manners.

Finally, if the Eastern Ukranians want independence, that is fine. But they should not claim it based on an armed takeover financed, supplied and led by Russia.*

Independence movements are usually (almost always) armed and use support from outside, since by definition the group wanting indepence would normally be a minority without sufficient resources. The US has financed many such efforts but only where the dictatorship in the respective country was not a pro-US one. I can follow up with multiple specific examples from South America and the Middle East if you are interested.

And not at the expense of 298 harmless people who died simply because these supposed "freedom fighters" decided to shoot first and ask questions later.

It is not yet clear who shot down plane. You are free to believe whatever you like but the separatists certainly have nothing to gain from shooting down a civil plane and obviously lack the equipment to distinguish between civil and military aircraft. Whoever did not close the airspace over a military conflict zone should take responsibility.

"What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms."

Robert Parry, July 20, 2014

everyone knows you don't drag off the bodies and clean up evidence, too, but that hasn't stopped the separatists, has it?

Maybe, everyone in your country. In civilised world every sane person is well aware that dead body being placed in a field is very vulnerable to wild animals and may quickly rot in open air in a conditions of hot weather. Malaysian authorities have already thanked rebels for assistance and work.

I'm not your "mate".

"mate" means "buddy" or "friend" in Australia or NZ. Strange that you know nothing about.

Second, no country has recognized this supposed Donetsk Republic, so it is not just the U.S. that feels they have no legitimacy.

It doesn't matter whether DNR is recognized or not. People fight for the independence, just like it took place on American soil many years ago.

But they should not claim it based on an armed takeover financed, supplied and led by Russia

They should decide by themselves, without advisors from aside.

Why so quick to accuse ?

Because Ukranians are guilty in that horrible crime and Washigton's politicians is well aware of it. That's why they increased a dirty stream of anti-Russian propaganda to maximum of volume. The fair investigation will not meet their common interests.

"Comrades, the boss has Putin (put in) lots of spins recently, therefore the pack need to act accordingly". The blood of innocents will be the cursed and torments upon the criminals and its allies who shot down MH17.

This would not had happen.. if Russia hasn't taken that position of defending the separatist.

The investigations and the return of the victims to their homes would be much more swift if Putin make a clear to allow rescue and investigation personnel to the site.

But I suppose Putin will make honor to his name in Spanish...

Maybe but there is a thing called the right of self-determination, mate. As far as Serbs are concerned, there is no such thing as the Republic of Kosovo either but with US/NATO support it went through.The vast majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Russian and if they want independence I don't see why they should not have it?! Or only ethnic groups blessed by the US are legit?

Zubrach ... First off, I'm not your "mate". Second, no country has recognized this supposed Donetsk Republic, so it is not just the U.S. that feels they have no legitimacy. Finally, if the Eastern Ukranians want independence, that is fine. But they should not claim it based on an armed takeover financed, supplied and led by Russia. And not at the expense of 298 harmless people who died simply because these supposed "freedom fighters" decided to shoot first and ask questions later. Nor should the families of the deceased have to endure untold misery because they refused to let anyone take the bodies. Personally, I feel sorry for anyone who would fall under their rule.

“We have decided to hand the black boxes over to Malaysian experts,” the prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Alexander Borodai, told journalists.

Simply appalling.

if the black boxes were handles back directly to officials, I tend to think that there was a reason. Rebels dont get any weapons from Russia, they dont need to, there are plenty of bases they can take over ( which is also why they can down military planes - they took over Ukrainian base filled with BUK systems) Its very funny though how US and EU people think about Ukraine and Russia , they are same country if you didnt get it till now and most people living in "rebel" areas are Russian and Russian speakers... the invaders are Ukraine army since they trying to enforce a rule these people dont want, same as in Krimea.. you can check that Ukraine in fact is a Russian - Slavic word... the only evil is bloody US stirring the peace. paying off Kiev nazis to alienate Russia so that US will be the major Gaz provider to EU...

"you know, when they loaded the already dead bodies on the plane (as separatist leader claims)."

I'm not supporting conspiracy theories and I'm not saying 100% the Russian speaking people didn't do it. Lets not come with conclusions or hypotheses without having evidences.

Its just strange that from the very first moments official states started openly pointing to Russia and the whole world created that image. Including you obviously. This is how the manage to manipulate thinking people.

In Syria they were talking about chemical gas attack from the government. Again some states rushed to accuse the government and it turned out it was not true but the whole world believe it and probably many still do. Once the image is created its difficult to change, even after you were shown the evidences that turns it down.

Everyone knows that the black boxes cannot be opened without notice.

This is untrue. When the Russians shot down the KAL flight some years ago, they salavaged the flight recorders and tampered with the information contained in them. Russia is a builder of airplanes and other sophisticated equipment, and they had plenty of time and knowhow analyze the flight recorders before handing them over.

This view of the events has more spin than a twist-o-flex.

What the presstitutes won't tell you is significant.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/

Why so quick to accuse ? Russia is one of Dutch's biggest trading partners. Before you "believe" what the popular media are telling you, step back and think who would benefit from this terrible incident ? I'm not drawing any conclusions until more investigations are done ... hell, as a sheep in the eyes of the 1%, I don't think I'll ever know the real truth.

Siniestro: everyone knows you don't drag off the bodies and clean up evidence, too, but that hasn't stopped the separatists, has it? They're not going to care what people think about opened black boxes--he'll, they'll probably say the Ukrainian government already opened them before the flight took off... you know, when they loaded the already dead bodies on the plane (as separatist leader claims).

There is no such thing as "the Donetsk Republic"...

Maybe but there is a thing called the right of self-determination, mate. As far as Serbs are concerned, there is no such thing as the Republic of Kosovo either but with US/NATO support it went through.The vast majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Russian and if they want independence I don't see why they should not have it?! Or only ethnic groups blessed by the US are legit?

"No doubt they've been thoroughly checked for any incriminating evidence and nothing was found, else there's no way they'd be handed over."

Everyone knows that the black boxes cannot be opened without notice. So it would be foolish to do so, cause it would just kind of prove the guilt. Plus the Russian speaking people doesnt have the technology not even to view the data even more alert them.

But again everyone is rushing to come with conclusions. Its pathetic.

This will probably push Russia closer to China and North Korea. I'm sure the Chinese especially are enjoying watching Putin run out of allies.

“On behalf of the Malaysian government I thank the government of the Donetsk Republic for handing us the two black boxes which are the property of Malaysia,” said a member of the Malaysian team.

There is no such thing as "the Donetsk Republic", except in the eyes of the terrorists and their Russian handlers. For the Malaysian government to be forced to sign a "protocol" simply to get back something that is their property under International Law is disgusting. There is no excuse for playing this kind of politics with an investigation of a criminal act that killed 298 innocent human beings.

smithinjapan No doubt they've been thoroughly checked for any incriminating evidence and nothing was found, else there's no way they'd be handed over

you are probably right - - HOWEVER given the limitations of their technology un der those condition- - They likely missed some critical pieces. . . .

No doubt they've been thoroughly checked for any incriminating evidence and nothing was found, else there's no way they'd be handed over.

Russians providing weapons to foreign grunts who have little or no idea about the far reaching consequences of its use 2014 edition.

Russia have just voted in favour of a UN Resolution to allow full and unfettered access to the crash site, so they are clearly trying to play both sides whilst they get rid of as much evidence indicting them as they can.

Where there is smoke, there is clearly fire in this case.