Russian missiles pound Ukraine power supply; fighting rages in east

The Russian war criminals just keep up their barbarian acts of terrorism and won't quit until they are obliterated and chased from Ukraine. We have an obligation as free and democratic people to protect Ukraine from the blood soaked claws of the Russian bear and not only send military weapons, training, intelligence etc. but when Ukraine finally pushes the barbarian __ back to Russia we need to help rebuild Ukraine and get their economy back on its feet. Putin made the biggest military blunder since WWII by invading Ukraine and we must extend the biggest humanitarian and assistance package since WWII to Ukraine once Russia is defeated.

Ukrainian air defense today eliminated an unusual Russian cruise missile.

https://www.technology.org/2022/11/17/cruise-missile-with-a-dummy-nuclear-warhead-lands-in-ukraine-where-is-the-real-warhead/

Zelensky needs to explain how and why this missile not only flew off course but also had it's safety system curiously malfunction as well... and coincidently happened during the G20 meeting.

No he doesn’t.

and coincidently happened during the G20 meeting.

Actually… explain why Russia is allowed to launch missile attacks “coincidentally during the G20 meeting” and why Ukraine is not allowed to defend themselves.

or get real.

None of the infrastructure being destroyed now was targeted until the attack on the Kerch Bridge.

Oh, well that's very kind of the invaders to not infrastructure. If only they decided not to invade in the first place.

Bronco - do you think that Russia wouldn't be targeting civilian infrastructure if the Kerch bridge hadn't been struck?

It's standard practice to fire dummies along with actual missiles to confuse the air defence system.

Sounds expensive. Especially when they confused orders and sent their dummies over the border in February.

Thanks for your response, Wil. Do you think this strategy will work?

i wrote it here yesterday.

full responsibility of UA rocket attack on PL lies on Volodymyr Zelensky,UA president and top commander of UA forces.

howgh.

i wrote it here yesterday.

And you were wrong then too.

Haa Nemui

if I am wrong you tell me who is boss of UA army than?

someone from whitehouse?

or maybe UA became part of USA already than you may be right...

if I am wrong you tell me who is boss of UA army than?

Well that would be Zelenskyy. The UA army firing defensively at incoming attacks by Russians. The attackers are responsible for that. That makes it Putin's fault. Or is he not the boss of the Russian military?

Even Poland, the recipient of the wayward missile, they correctly lay blame with Russia.

Bronco

S300 air defence missiles explode in mid air, regardless of whether they hit their target, unless specifically and deliberately refurbished into ground attack missiles.

Zelensky needs to explain how and why this missile not only flew off course but also had it's safety system curiously malfunction as well... and coincidently happened during the G20 meeting.

Malfunction? Seems pretty easy to explain to me.

Good analysis, Wil. btw, I follow Rob Lee too.

I wonder if this portends a new direction in modern warfare. And the new cat and mouse game between seeking to destroy electric grids and seeking to protect them and make them more resilient. Right now they seem to be easier to destroy than to protect, but the pendulum swings.

If Ukraine finds itself backed into a corner with this strategy, do you foresee them undertaking more asymmetrical warfare within Russia proper? I agree with you that they have the will to resist, but without the long-distance missile capabilities, the balance could shift in favor of Russia if the Ukrainian is destroyed.

Ukrainian grid*

Wil

So in short, if the Russians persist, 

They will run out of missiles.

Haaa Nemui

Check at google maps position of that village in PL attacked,than UA territory from where missile was fired.Than check location of Russia.

S300 could not come from russian territory as that village in PL is located very far from both eastern and northern russian borders and S300 range is much shorter.

Part from UA constitution

Article 106

The President of Ukraine:

article s 17 and 18

is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine; appoints to office and dismisses from office the high command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other military formations; administers in the spheres of national security and defense of the State;

heads the Council of National Security and Defense of Ukraine.

let me wrap it.

Rocket was ukrainian,came from UA and was fired by UA forces.UA president as commander in chief is fully responsible regardless if attack was done by purpose or accident/in other words unprofessionality of UA forces/.

Howgh.

Putin was incapable of occupying Ukraine so now he is destroying the country. Causing suffering for millions of people.

Eastman

Rocket was ukrainian,came from UA and was fired by UA forces.UA president as commander in chief is fully responsible regardless if attack was done by purpose or accident/in other words unprofessionality of UA forces/.

Not at all. President Volodymyr Zelensky has responded. He has said he had "no doubts" that Ukraine was not to blame for the missile strike that killed two people in Poland on Tuesday.

President Volodymyr Zelensky has responded. He has said he had "no doubts" that Ukraine was not to blame for the missile strike that killed two people in Poland on Tuesday.

Or than who if not Ukraine?

Or should I write same thing over again?

Or will we play game that facts are "not facts"?

Putin with his invasion and war, firing more than 4,500 missiles is responsible for everything happening in Ukraine. Putin stops the war stops.

Eastman

not disputing the missile came from Ukrainian territory. However, the missile came from Ukrainian territory during a barrage of missiles coming from Russia. Ukraine is entitled to defend itself. The missile was fired DEFENSIVELY BECAUSE OF THE MISSILES COMING FROM RUSSIA. No missiles from Russia, no missile in Poland. It’s really quite simple.

Haa Nemui

No missiles from Russia, no missile in Poland. It’s really quite simple.

One more chance.

Not disputing that russian forces have sent missiles to Ukraine.

Russian missiles came from east.

UA rockets if wanted to stop russian rockets have to be shoot to eastern direction.

PL lies on the west.

UA missile have exploded in PL means west not east.

Sorry cant make explanation more...basic.

That walking into the (temporarily) evacuated city of Kherson is described as 'recapturing' tells you how to view the rest of the 'news' in the article.

Eastman

President Volodymyr Zelensky has responded. He has said he had "no doubts" that Ukraine was not to blame for the missile strike that killed two people in Poland on Tuesday.

Or than who if not Ukraine?

Or should I write same thing over again?

Or will we play game that facts are "not facts"?

I don't think we are playing with facts yet. Maybe Zelensky knows something that we don't. He is also frustrated because Poland won't let Ukraine inspect the scene.

It is ironic, but for once Zelensky is being truthful, it wasn't antimissile missiles that hit the site in Poland.

Most likely, one regime faction hit another's weapons convoy as it was taking 'diverted' weapons out of Zelensky's territory to the international weapons black market.

Why is Putin causing death and suffering for millions of people, including young children when they have done nothing against him or Russia?

Nothing says "Pan-Russo brotherhood" like targeting heat and electricity in the winter in Ukraine.

And it's because the Russians cannot win on the battlefield. It's like the bully who loses a fight at the bar and goes home to beat his wife.

The only problem with that analogy.....

The guy who kicked the bullie's ass at the bar? He is the battered wife's brother. He knows where the bully lives. He's coming to pay his respects.

So enjoy your shelling Mini-me. Because the wheel of Karma is turning.

S300 air defence missiles explode in mid air, regardless of whether they hit their target, unless specifically and deliberately refurbished into ground attack missiles.

Zelensky needs to explain how and why this missile not only flew off course but also had it's safety system curiously malfunction as well... and coincidently happened during the G20 meeting.

Yes, and now NATO members are talking about an "urgent need for NATO to plug gaps in its defenses". They're using this as an excuse to increase "defense" spending.

UA missile have exploded in PL means west not east.

And? sure it might mean it was fired in the wrong direction. It has been reported that it was a malfunction. You’re making an assumption it was fired deliberately at Poland. That’s a massive assumption to be made and it’s also irrelevant because Polish authorities don’t agree with you. However, if it was fired deliberately at Poland, the opportunity to do so in a false flag operation (a real one, not an imagined one) actually came about because of Russian aggression. That is why Putin and Russia are seen as responsible.

Also, you may have noticed this whole drone thing recently? Unlike missiles drones are very easy and cheap to mass produce and very well suited to target extensive structures like energy grids. Don't expect them to run out of those and good luck trying to protect the whole Ukrainian grid. All militaries in the world combined don't have the air defence assets for that.

Agree that there may be something to mass-produced drones in concert with cruise missiles. Couldn't the West also produce these cheaply and provide them to Ukraine?

Raw Beer - After the events of the last year, I don't think I can fault anyone for increasing their defense spending.

one question to all of you-are UA forces winning already?

by news published here there are few steps from crushing of Russia.that Russia running out of ammo,powerless,moralless,rocketless one Ivans living in zemlianka as sobaki and runaway after first UA army shots...?

please update and anounce day of last crush so will mark it my calendar...

Yes, Russia's size would make this tactic not as productive for Ukraine. You seem to have thought this through and it seems like Ukraine doesn't have any great answers against this type of attack on civilian infrastructure. What can they do in the short term to help mitigate the damage?

Wil

They will run out of missiles.

That's what we have been hearing for months, but the Russians seem to not have gotten that memo.

I didn't say, the have run out, just are running out.

Far from it, they seem to be purchasing missiles from Iran, which should keep them going a while longer.

Indicating that they are in short supply.

Also, you may have noticed this whole drone thing recently? Unlike missiles drones are very easy and cheap to mass produce and very well suited to target extensive structures like energy grids.

Iran have given Russia 450 drones. Ukraine have shot down 300. So 150 left. Iran are sending 160 more, so I expect Iran are running short.

Don't expect them to run out of those

That's exactly what I expect.

and good luck trying to protect the whole Ukrainian grid.

They can rebuild it. Ukraine's neighbours are sending electrical equipment.

2020hindsights

They can rebuild it. Ukraine's neighbours are sending electrical equipment.

Wil has some good points though. How long will they need to keep helping rebuild? Can they continue it long enough to counter Russia’s aggression. There aren’t unlimited resources either for Russia or for anybody else.

Thanks for your insights Wil. I know they are a tough people. I hope they can get through this winter.

Russia’s army is in dire shape and on the retreat. The West should send more munitions without delay.

On November 15th the Biden administration asked Congress for over $37bn in emergency aid to Ukraine -more than the defence budgets of Australia, Canada or Italy.

Ukraine needs additional Western launchers that can be replenished more easily - including longer-range Patriot batteries. Air defences would allow Ukraine to ramp up its own arms production without fear of having factories destroyed.

Its army hopes to raise as many as a dozen new brigades for a future offensive. They will need a large fleet of armoured vehicles.

Putin's having a hissy fit in Moscow.

You're not as big and bad as you thought you were, are you?

Wil

Give them e few years and several billion in funds, sure.

They don't need the funds, they need donations.

Anytime soon? nope. Pluck, grit and "can do attitude" don't make up for missing parts and equipments,

You can't really improvise with high power.

The parts required are standard the world over - doesn't take years to install switchgear and transformers.

one question to all of you-are UA forces winning already?

Well, they did show great strength when then moved into an evacuated area (Kherson).

by news published here there are few steps from crushing of Russia.that Russia running out of ammo,powerless,moralless,rocketless

Yeah, not long ago the EU's Ursula von der Leyen was saying that they were in tatters, and that they had to take processor ships out of their washing machines to build missiles....

Very soon, the ground will freeze and Russia will have at least 300,000 trained reservists ready to go against a greatly weakened Ukrainian force.

Remember, we wouldn't give up on Iraq? and we wouldn't give up on Afghanistan?? Remember that?

I do, and ultimately, this is what I think it’s going to take. It was the defenders who pushed the U.S. and its allies out. In the case of Afghanistan, Russia was also forced out before the U.S. tried. I think Ukraine is in it for the long haul and I hope they are successful.

Remember, we wouldn't give up on Iraq? and we wouldn't give up on Afghanistan?? Remember that?

In those cases, we were in a similar situation as Russia finds itself now, no? Not a perfect analogy, but a foreign army uninvited in a hostile country. I would think that Russia would be the ones checking their enthusiasm for this war of choice and asking themselves if it is worth it.

So it sounds like part of our support to Ukraine should be teaching them to fish so that in future years, they won’t need as much funding in the event Western financial support declines a bit. What can the west do to that end?

Wil

Ukraine needs additional Western launchers that can be replenished more easily - including longer-range Patriot batteries. Air defences would allow Ukraine to ramp up its own arms production without fear of having factories destroyed.

Small mistake in your idea: ramping up arms production takes years, not months.

Looks like they are already making their own drones. I think you will find they are more resourceful that you give them credit for.

Wil

Yes and no. Ukrainian morale may be high, at least for now, but they are completely dependent on Western support to keep their army and economy afloat.

US support will stay steady for the next couple of years - i.e., while Biden is President.

I would expect the Russian army to collapse in that time.

All good points, Wil. It sounds like we have some tough times ahead, unfortunately.

Just why, Russia?

Putin has brought in all these experts to help him dig his way out of this hole…

Wil

Looks like they are already making their own drones. I think you will find they are more resourceful that you give them credit for.

I am not saying they aren't resourceful. I am saying they lack the economic, industrial, financial and military resources to face the Russians on anything like an even footing.

Unless they are being supplied continuously by Western powers, they will get ground down.

Sure. That's why the West has to keep up its support. And I believe they will. At least the US will for the next two years.

If the Russians actually get their act together, all the support we are giving them might still not be enough.

I don't see that happening. If you look at the level of corruption in the Russian army leading to no uniforms or equipment for newly mobilised forces, you can see they are found wanting.

There is this assumption in the media that the Ukrainians are going to curbstomp the Russians somehow and any Russian resistance is futile. I think this is a grave misunderstanding of the situation.

I do agree that if they are allowed to regroup and train their forces, they will be more of a handful. Which is why the West cannot let up in support of Ukraine right now.

Other factors to keep in mind is Russian sanctions combined with the economic effects of mobilisation. They don't look like they are working, but that is more a case of Russia hiding the real economic effect of the sanctions.

What did you think?, that the war had ended only because of a tactical withdrawal of Russia??..

gintonic

So in short, if the Russians persist, ......They will run out of missiles.

Wouldn't count on it....we,ve been hearing that Russia is running out of missiles since March or so.

Sure. Running out. It's real. Also, the reason they couldn't stay in Kherson is because they are lacking artillery rounds.

On the other hand Russia said they have ramped up production in their missile / ammunition factories. No evidence of of them running out atm.

Sure. I don't think so.

Wil

US support will stay steady for the next couple of years - i.e., while Biden is President.

I would expect the Russian army to collapse in that time.

You are aware thet the Republicans have managed to get a majority in the House?

Sure. But enough Republicans support aiding Ukraine in this war will overcome their slim majority in the house. So I see no real changes in ploicy.

The same Republican party who maanaged to get 50% of the States think the idea of "Let's limit our exposure to a potentially deadly virus" was an affront to themselves and god.

Kinda irrelevant.

Rocket was ukrainian,came from UA and was fired by UA forces.UA president as commander in chief is fully responsible regardless if attack was done by purpose or accident/in other words unprofessionality of UA forces/.

The rocket was not fired during tests or exercises, but in response to active Russian missile attacks. Ukraine is not responsible for Russian attacks. With no Russian attacks those missiles would not have been launched.

Who is responsible for the Russian attacks? Zelensky or Putin? Who is commander in chief of Russian forces and fully responsible for those attacks and all consequences of those attacks? Putin. Making him responsible for the deaths in Poland, much more so than Zelensky.

Wil

2020hindsights

Other factors to keep in mind is Russian sanctions combined with the economic effects of mobilisation. They don't look like they are working, but that is more a case of Russia hiding the real economic effect of the sanctions.

Or it is actually a case of the sanctions not working as intended because Russia has found alternative suppliers and buyers.

That's rather simplistic. You will note that Russia publishes almost no data on their economy at all. They are hiding it.

Europe have weaned themselves off as much Russian oil and gas as possible and India and China is getting oil at very discounted prices. Russia can't sell gas to these countries easily because there are no pipelines.

It's starting to hurt Russia, but it will get worse over time.

Wil

2020hindsights

Look at how this worked for the Democrats, they had massive majority for all sorts of reforms, and who was wielding all the power? The one or two outliers who could make or break the vote (aka Joe Mancin).

You are confusing the house with the senate. And yet, they could still get money for Ukraine.

Wil - in the US, the MIC is probably in more Republican districts than in Democratic ones. Support for Ukraine has pretty bipartisan appeal too.

Wil - they may try, or some faction of them will rather, but like I said, MIC gets along well with Republicans too.

You seriously think "why are we sending billions of dollard overseas to yet another foreign war" is a harder sell than "Try not to die due to slowly suffocating to dead due to a virus"?

The dollars mostly stay in the US. It's the equipment that is getting sent overseas. A fraction of the amount we spend on our military budget, btw, and with a pretty good ROI as far as some of folks are concerned.

I think Europe would fold in its support before the US does, and I don't see Eastern Europe folding at all.

Wil

You should have figured out by now that I don't do "simplistic" or simply yell the first thing that comes to mind.

Not always, but sometimes.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/16/politics/russia-sanctions-ukraine-slow-economic-pain/index.html

A little dated.

The key goal of economic sanctions is to inflict disproportionate damage and pain on the other side, that doesn't seem to be what is happening.

A little simplistic.

Wil

I fear you may be underestimating the incentive (and willingness) the Republicans have to create a link between money sent to Ukraine, economic crisis and gas prices and Biden's son having links to Ukraine. If they think for even a second it would pay off politically, you honestly think they wouldn't do it?

Oh, I'm sure they certainly will. I have total confidence that they will do that.

But nobody will care.

@eastman

one question to you

After bombing, destroying, raping & murdering, did Serbia end up winning ?

Good always triumphs bad

@Wil

Russians have conducted a planned retreat from Kherson…

And the world will be a better place after they conduct a planned (or unplanned, even) retreat from Ukraine!