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Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France

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The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement....

And it's not the only way to love, honor and obey.

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I've never really understood the French view on this. If someone feels they want to wear a burqa, and it doesn't interfere with their work, why is it a problem? This statement, “The burqa is not a religious sign, it’s a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement..." clearly isn't shared by all Muslim females. This is a male outsider's view. My understanding is that, at least in some countries, like Malaysia for instance, wearing a burqa is generally a personal decision, and is in fact an expression of faith.

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If French law or even simply common practice doesn't permit someone to walk around totally shrouded and incognito burqas and niqads and such shouldn't be allowed, if for no reason other than security,

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France do not like burqas and also do not like speaking english.

You cannot force the french ,to not be french in culture.

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Too little, too late.

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I'm sure very few women will be complaining about this.

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"Liberty Fraternity Equality" : Whose liberty? Whose fraternity? Whose equality? This famous French cry should be for all. Most importantly in the economy. Post Christian Europe is becoming myoptic. Christian Catholic thought is universal. Take it away and you have worship of self and culture. The others are outsiders. We must be thankful for what our culture has given but rise above it to a common humanity. We all share a common Earth, n'est pas.

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Less is not always more: as a protest all Muslim women will walk around naked until they get their (French flag) burquas.

They tried to ban the 5" heel once -would have been the end of Soul Train and the 70's. -Thank god it never happened and cooler heads prevailed!

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this is the correct stance to take I think. The coverings have nothing to do with freedom or respect and are reflective instead of an ancient cultural anthropology of subservience to men, and not religion. Burqas are not in the koran for example, just the action of being modest. This then became defined differently for men and women.

Don't forget we don't live under Shria law either, which is also a male dominated law, and brutal to women. Custody and justice is quite different and old-style which is why Shria law is not allowed in western countries.

Indonesia does a nice balance, not accepting the full burqa (is it law there?) but instead first being a modern moderate muslim and mixed country. That's the way to go.

Many people wear a funny hat. That seems to work fine just fine. People still complain about funny hats, but at least you see the face, you see the person. Eventually people don't see the hats anymore and just the person. As long as we can see the face, everything else is negotiable.

The word face takes on many meanings in many languages but they are all basically similar. Face is not only what we see but what we save, or have. Things have face value, save face, faceless, face up to something, and on and on. Thus the very action to hide face is in most societies a sign of anger or threat or denial anymore than if I wore a balaclava ski mask to work. we as a western styled society do not view it as respectful to ourselves nor to others.

Go ahead and be muslim, be religious, do what you need to do, but the burqas go too far inside a western society preventing women from engaging fully in society and in that way I agree with Sarkozy.

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YouTube: "Ma radio star"

Hit the pic: -Shouldn't matter. If you can't get down with the burqua -then get off the dance floor!! =These socialist idealists are going way to far and trying to ruin all societies. --->And for what? --> To make the Uber-rich richer? I already bailed you bums out 1T++++++, so get off my back and get down. Hit the record D.C.

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"Ma Radio Star" -Tahiti 80 groove

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this is a good move, I think. the very people that would make women wear such clothing wouldn't let you bring a bible, wear certain clothes, listen to music....

now, how does it feel?

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I really can't wait for a country that can have the guts to denounce all religion, but leave you to where religion should be practiced - church/home. Religous garb has no place in public!

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this is not about religion or clothes = it is about respecting people and society for who/what they are. If you have issues with what someone is wearing that really says more about yourself than them.

If women want to wear smocks then let them. (see the Soul Train Video =that is a green smock and thick thighs). -All this hate is messing up my groove.

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My understanding is that, at least in some countries, like Malaysia for instance, wearing a burqa is generally a personal decision, and is in fact an expression of faith.

Hmm? You'll never see a Malay woman wearing a burqa. The only women you see wearing them in Malaysia are tourists from the gulf states. Malay women are generally far too fashionable - even the very religious ones - to wear such attire.

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Banned religious attire hum? Supposing a woman wants to wear one as a statement of her personality or as some sort of political protest? Muslims will be banned from wearing burqas in public, but non-muslims will be free to wear them whenever they want! (Just like with the current French ban on overtly religious clothing and accessories in schools. e.g. A sikh can't wear a turban or a beard, but anyone else can.)

I think of Sarky as a complete hypocrite. He claims burqas are a sign of the “debasement” of women, but he thinks it's fine to have whores, porn, and stripshows debasing women left right and centre. (I also don't like the way his first 'job' on becoming president was to get a new wife. He had items of world importance on his agenda and all he could think of was his underpants. Shame on him.)

He could at least be consistent, if he wants to ban burqas in public he should ban all religious garb in public, not just by those practicing the religion but by everyone. No more nuns in habits, no more stag-nighters in habits either lol.

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When the burqua religion starts showing tolerance towards other religions, then we should talk about whether Sarko is a hypocrite. Those rooting for said people never seem to understand the intolerance they harbor against others. The same holds true if you were to go their lands wearing your short skirts, when you get arrested, I say its your fault.

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what is so wrong with the French behaving like those of the Burqua wearing countries?

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It's the cultural Left that supports and enables Mohammedans to continue in Europe the institutional misogyny their cult is infamous for. So I think what we need here is the ChickenHawk argument Lefties seem to think passes for logic - if you support the right to wear a burqa show it by bundling yourself up in a burlap bag,refrain from voting and don't forget to quit your present job/get off the dole and take the sort of menial jobs that women in Muslim countries are expected to take.

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Several countries forbid the wearing the Star of David, Bibles, exposed skin and no one here who are against French taking such a measure has said nothing to date. no even finding any objection to such rules and yet, the moment a European country says enough, you all cry foul!

If you are left, you should be more in support of this than against it.

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When France volunteers to put an end to the gender separation of nouns in the language, the separation of titles for married and unmarried women (Mme, Mlle) vs. only one for men regardless of status (M.), I'll take their 'we are doing this for women' thing seriously. The former might be impossible, I know, but no reason the latter cannot be done.

Anyway, my point is that the idea they are doing this for the freedom of women only is absurd. And what if a woman WANTS to wear the burqa? Is she going to be told by others that she is brainwashed and that only THEY know what she really wants/deserves? I personally would never want my partner to wear a burqa, but she and I also don't believe in Islam. While it should be made clear that women be given a choice in the matter, that 'choice' should not be forced on them by banning options.

This will garner the Anti-Muslim support, to be sure, but that's all it will do; it has nothing to do with 'freedom'.

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Smith (1:42) you win most amusing post of the day.

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teleprompter,

The last time this one is the news you ended up looking a little silly, old friend.

I for one support sarko on this issue. Laicism is good. Fundieism is bad. Seperation of religion and state is good. Immigrants forcing their crap on, us is bad.

It's bad enough paying for all these immigrants to whine about coming to live here.

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Not all cultures are equal in time or place. "Western" culture is better today than it was 50 years ago when racism was rampant or 60 years ago when anti-semitism led to the Holocaust in Europe. "Western" culture is better than Aztec culture and their human sacrifices. "Western" culture's very new acceptance of homosexuals is better than sending gays to the gas chamber. Europe does not need to import Aztec sacrifices, anti-semitism, racism or sexism. Sorry but the practice of female circumcision is not welcome in the West and is inferior to "Western" thought and ideals.

Immigrants have a lot to offer to any country as long as backward inferior concepts are left at home.

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Madverts: "The last time this one is the news you ended up looking a little silly, old friend."

MORE than a little silly, I'd say.

Anyway, while I agree with you that separation of state and religion is good, I don't see how separating people's choices by state is any good at all. If they don't allow burqas to be worn in meetings of state, fine. Allowing people the choice to wear them on their own is not at all the same thing, so how does separating state and religion have anything to do with it? I mean, if we suddenly said Christians aren't allowed to worship or carry bibles, could you also argue that it's important to separate religion and state? Methinks, no.

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I mean, if we suddenly said Christians aren't allowed to worship or carry bibles" You can't in my house, and that includes my mom and her bible thumbing friends!

Seriously, you wouldn't want a so called right winger living next door to you would you?

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Smith,

I find it hilarious to read the diatribes of certain Americans here. Copying what somebody else said on a blog that sounded good doesn't mean you actually know anything about what's going on here.

Frustration is seriously on the rise, especially in the UK and France in regards to imigrants. As is support for the extremist parties in Europe, unfortunately. I agree that sarko should take the isssue on - it only worries me that at this particular point in time it could fuel racism here.

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I find it hilarious to read the diatribes of certain Americans here.

Triatribes, even, on bad days.

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The horse is already out of the barn on this one.

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Frustration is seriously on the rise, especially in the UK and France in regards to imigrants.

Sentiments like that help Americans understand why the BNP and other extreme right wing groups (like the ones in Austria) are on the rise.

Europe scares me.

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tolerance only works if the other party is willing to reciprocate

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"Europe scares me."

And shrieking fundamentalists scare me.

Especially when they're always blurting things they cannot back up.

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Sarkozy is fighting a losing battle.

Islam is firmly on the way to take over Europe, mainly by simple demographics, and aided by clueless European political correctness.

Enjoy free and secular Europe as long as it lasts.

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Apparently the French government really wants to get excess cars off the streets of Paris. Shouldn't be too long before the Muslims there take care of that problem.

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Sarkozy represents an older Europe that is shuffling into the dark. Madverts right wing BNP extremist buds aside many younger Euros crave dhimmitude. There are fashion shows in some of Europe's biggest cities acknowledging the trend towards Europe's all but inevitable Islamization.

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I'm still hoping someone will shed light on the French view of this. What I understand of it is that French citizenship is seen to call for certain responsibilities to be exercised, and to the extent that religion might in any way interfere with these responsibilities, France opposes the demonstration of religion, especially in the workplace. The view is that Muslim women cannot be full actors with full responsibility in that they are under the control of men. My problem with this view is that first, many Muslim women decide to take up the wearing of the burqa themselves, and not because it is forced upon them, and second, that one of the benefits of a democracy is its acceptance of different cultural and religious backgrounds. The ban seems to be in conflict with this idea. I find myself agreeing with smithinjapan, above. If anyone could better explain the French view, I would like to read what you have to say.

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proxy:

" Immigrants have a lot to offer to any country as long as backward inferior concepts are left at home. "

It is not about "immigrants", it is about one particular virulent ideology that disguises itself as religion. There is no danger to Europe from Hare Krishnas, Zorastrians, Sikhs, or Buddhists. For your information, many of the most virulent islamists (including some of the burkah wearing women) are Western converts.

Misguided Western "tolerance" towards islamic supremacism simply means opening Pandora´s box.

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"Islam is firmly on the way to take over Europe, mainly by simple demographics, and aided by clueless European political correctness."

The only thing that is clueless are your continued, frantic conspiracy theories. Just because your favourite Islam hating blogs tell you Europe is an Islamic colony, Reality states otherwise.

"Enjoy free and secular Europe as long as it lasts."

I will.

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Merci, Monsieur Sarkozy. Vive la France!

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Two sides to this coin, you know... for ever woman that wants to wear a burqa, how many are there who are intimidated into doing so by their family and their society? How many who risk pain, injury or even death for disobeying? Don't think you can just ask them whether or not they want to wear the thing; the pressure on them to answer affirmitively is too great.

Now, extend this out... how many forced mairrages? (I'm sure she really wanted to suddenly be shipped off to Pakistan to marry some guy 30 years older than her that she never met.) How many excused of "we don't do that in our culture/religion"...?

Still, I think Sarko is going about it in the wrong (albiet extremely French) way... Here in the good ol' US of A we let the KKK march if they want to (so long as they don't burn a cross on your lawn... even free speech has its limits). In France, however, they take their Enlightenment seriously; last time they had an issue with headscarves in the public school system they went and banned them along with all crucifixes, stars of david and yarmulkes, if my memory serves.

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Sarkozy is brave and an excellent fellow to make these statements about 'burqas'. He makes it abundantly clear that the burqua is 'unwelcome' not as fashion item nor fabric 'prison' nor religious dress, BUT it is 'unwelcome' as the clothing dictated by female subservience, which is incompatible with the spirit of La Republique. Vive la Belle France! What he achieves by so doing, whether the laws are constructed or not to support his view, is to have made a very public statement so that all over France, women who may have felt obliged by their male partners to wear the burqa, will understand clearly, that their true legal right in France is to be FREE of such subservience, and not to be subject to male domination.

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The burqua is not religious clothing. The term makes no sense anyway. I do not think there is any particular type of clothing sanctioned by any religion is there? All the burqua is is a type of clothing that allows Muslim women to fulfill ideas of modesty that might be in the Koran. But interpretations vary.

If women want to wear it, its their human right, right up until it becomes a security risk. And the only way to know that for sure is that a crime against French security or even a neighbor's must be committed that is aided by a burqua. Until that happens Sarkozy has no business making half the statements he does.

What? You don't want to take the risk? Well, freedom and democracy are not for the faint of heart. Relocating to a far more secure totalitarian regime is just a plane ride away. Bye.

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"Qatar, where women wear Islamic head coverings in public, whether while shopping or driving cars"

I'll bet a lot of women in Saudi Arabia wish they were in Qatar.

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Sarge, we are discussing France.

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Beaver, you're new here, so I'm going to give you a break. Anything in the article is up for discussion, and I commented on something in the article.

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A German town recently refused the construction of a mosque because the Islamic architecture did not fit with historic buildings it would be set among, and also because the town leadership would not accept a major building in their town where women were not treated as an equal.

Wearing of these outfits in some Middle Eastern countries like Egypt only became widespread after the 1967 Israeli/Egyption war when secularism was swamped by the old bastion of religion.

In Turkey I have seen groups of women wearing them for vital sun protection in the fields while their husbands sat around all day in the village playing cards.

Roman Catholics nuns gave their similar garb away in the sixties.

Shiria law does not require the cutting off of hands for stealing or the the public spectacle of stoning women for unfaithfulness if the accused publicly repents. But it is widely done whether the accused repent or not.

Moslem women in France are better off to adopt the truism "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". Same with their men folk.

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"How many who risk pain, injury or even death for disobeying? Don't think you can just ask them whether or not they want to wear the thing; the pressure on them to answer affirmitively is too great."

The other side of the coin is also allowing immigrnats to contine treating women in this way. The French can be critisized for the way they go about a lot of things, but I support the end of immigrants coming here - many of them with the sole intention of living off state benefits - and refusing to integrate.

"last time they had an issue with headscarves in the public school system they went and banned them along with all crucifixes, stars of david and yarmulkes, if my memory serves."

Lacism in action. The international media made it about head-scarves, but it was about all religious symbols. Yon know I'd much rather faith-based religions were kept from any sort of decision making, especially at state level. That way we are at least protected from nut-bag fundemantilsts taking away our choises.

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Madverts- "The international media made it about head-scarves, but it was about all religious symbols. "

A head scarf is not a religious symbol. It is an instrument and sign of piety. At most it is a symbol of religious culture. The proof is that no religion and almost no sect is consistent about the clothing. If you ban the clothing, then you may as well ban certain haircuts as well, such as the braids certain Jewish men wear. Or beards, as some Muslim men are required to have them when they marry. If you say having a thing for a religious purpose makes it a religious symbol, you open a great big can of worms.

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Here in France the headscarf is associated with Islam, right or wrong. My point was that the international media made it seem like France was picking on muslims, when it is in fact about protecting the seperation of church and state.

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The conspiracy theory...what we have is a concerted islamic effort to convert all nations to their theocracy through infiltration and trying to out populate the rest of the world. Islam is a predatory religion and good on France for their efforts to set boundaries.

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Time Place Occassion - as protection against desert sun & sand; or so as not to endanger men focused on serious work like safe driving.

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Madverts: "Here in France the headscarf is associated with Islam, right or wrong."

Was Jackie O. a Muslim? Her and other non-Muslim women often wear head scarves.

My point was that the international media made it seem like France was picking on muslims, when it is in fact about protecting the seperation of church and state.

I am afraid I don't see your point at all. It some burqua or head scarf clad Muslim woman running for a parliament seat? It seems to me Sarkozy was on about ordinary people wearing them on their own private time, not people making government decisions.

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Should we allow them to keep the burka and the honor killings as well? Oh it's religious freedom now. Off with the burka and the safer we'll be when terrorists start to use them against us. The first boom will be an eye opener.

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Brunobear,

In Turkey I have seen groups of women wearing them ... while their husbands sat around all day in the village playing cards. Moslem women in France are better off to adopt the truism "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". Same with their men folk.

lol, I can well imagine Muslim men doing the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" thing! Instead of sitting around in the village all day playing cards, they'll sit around in the village all day playing cards and guzzling wine! Since when have French men (or any others) been famous for treating women as equals and not ever being lazy beggars? lol!

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most shops won't allow motorcycle riders to wear their helmets inside. this is grounds to disallow the burka as well before you even get into religious debate

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Al Qaeda declares they will get their revenge on France

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0701/1224249838610.html

Waiting for the preposterous "All religions have their extremists" attempt at rebuttal from the multi-culti crowd...

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