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Scotland says May's Brexit stance ups chance of new independence vote

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What are the odds that First Minister Nicola Sturgeon SNP will organize “indyref” without Westminster parliament legislative approval on the day Theresa May Conservative Government triggers article 50?. (Keeping in mind the article 50 bill is winging it way through the upper house).

I mistakenly thought that the EU commission would be more sympathetic ,at least politically, to accommodate Holyrood parliaments request.

However, even a cursory glance at Scottish Government expenditure and revenue is evidence enough, from a economic perspective, Scotland is joined at the hip to the UK tax payers. The deceitfulness and insincerity of Nicola Sturgeon platform and position in calling for another “indyref” at any cost, heralds from a deep seated hatred and loathing of the English, no more, no less.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

a deep seated hatred and loathing of the English, no more, no less

and not extreme discomfort at the myopic devil-may-care xenophobia of its southern neighbour?

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Or perhaps SenseNotSoCommon, Is there a connection between Scottish nationalism and racism?

Claire Heuchan insightful Guardian article is poignant and relevant....

The parallels between Scottish nationalism and racism are clear - There is a certain irony to white people with progressive politics rubbishing what Sadiq Khan has to say about racism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/27/parallels-scottish-nationalism-racism-sadiq-khan

Could it be the anger and outrage of First Minister Nicola Sturgeon SNP, is hiding a dark and ugly form of prejudice, an intolerant ideology of national socialism?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

My question is how can Sturgeon move forward when the SNP don't have the voting majority necessary in the Scottish parliament to legislate for it. The devolved government can request permission from Westminster, but the Scottish Tories can block the referendum legislation.

All of that before facing the reality that Scotland would be outside the EU either way the referendum went.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"and not extreme discomfort at the myopic devil-may-care xenophobia of its southern neighbour?"

Not all of them. My home city voted remain very clearly.

Let's be honest, hatred of the English is a factor. I've heard it on many occasions and members of the SNP do play on these sentiments. I'm from one of the safest Labour seats in the UK and back in the 90s I had a Scot ( a graduate of the Unversity of Glasgow, no less ) have a go at me for enabling the Tories to deface Scotland. Your post reminded of that exchange.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for Scottish independence aside from the Brexit stupidity - the simple fact that Labour, the Liberals and the Tories have 3 seats combined in the country. Looking at those parties, the Tories are morally degenerate, Labour are a shambles and the Liberals are now too insignificant to warrant an insult. That said, I'm not too impressed with the SNP either. I just wonder if these geniuses have learned that important issues such as what currency you plan to use matter.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

The Scots should go for independence if that's what they want. I doubt they will be much worse (or better) off, despite all the talk of calamity should they decide to go their own way.

With the bunch of clowns running the show in Westminster it's likely that England will be going down the tubes quite soon. I'm looking forward to all the whining and complaining when they realise the EU won't give them what they want and they have no negotiating strengths whatsoever. It's a pity they don't realise that now but, as I said, that's because they are incompetent clowns.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Is there a connection between Scottish nationalism and racism?

You might want to reread Claire Heuchan's first paragraph (my italics):

Equating racism with Scottish nationalism is a massive false equivalence, yet both perspectives are reliant on a clear distinction being made between those who belong and those who are rejected on the basis of difference.

IndyRef 2 is saying Yes, Scotland belongs in the EU, and an unequivocal No to Brexit's irreversible rejection on the basis of difference.

Sadiq Khan's party is competing with the SNP for its very survival in Westminster, Labour needs Scotland in the UK, so of course he'll attack the SNP. That's politics.

Sturgeon's rejection on the basis of difference is not of the English, but of the wagon that May hitched - against Scottish wishes - to an unpredictable mule going the opposite way.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Why should less than 10% of the British population have such a say on the fate of a nation? Sorry Scotland, you had your chance, I don't think another referendum should be held so soon, live with it. The next time a referendum is held it should be Britain wide but I suspect the English would now vote Scotland out of the union anyway because they hate Sturgeon.

Itsonlyrocknroll, you might well be aware now that the EUs stance against accommodating Scotlands wishes is that they don't want to encourage more dialogue with breakaway regions, such as The Basque.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yes Claire Heuchan is posing a question/opinion more than an accusation or a conclusion. I am drawn to the balanced reasoning within Clare Heuchan article. it would be an unfair assumption and overstatement to declare or view the SNP or individual members as racist. However drawing parallels to certain rhetoric and behaviors is a point worth debating. A view taken by Sadiq Khan.

There are a number of alternatives, taking a form federalist home rule. Health, transport, education, employment, fiscal and monetary policy would be the fully devolved to the Scottish parliament.

It would be a struggle to persuade politically Nicola Sturgeon SNP to except this arrangement. The Scottish electorate clearly rejected the UK exiting the European Union, how any compromise for Scotland to remain, at least within the single market could well be unworkable. The political and economic hurdle certainly seem to appear insurmountable. It is difficult to visualize the twenty seven member states excepting a country that would need to be fiscally and monetarily supported from day one.

If only Nicola Sturgeon could have set historic prejudices aside so to reach a consensus and understanding economically as to how the remaining members of the Union could aid Scotland fast track EU entry on the likelihood to a vote of Independence.

Admittedly some of the members of the Conservative party, Gove, Johnson, Osborne to name a few, really exude a insufferably repugnant air of entitlement. A rule by birthright mentality.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Why should less than 10% of the British population have such a say on the fate of a nation?

Ideas above their station! It's for Murdoch and other non-dom Media Barons to decide.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"Sturgeon's rejection on the basis of difference is not of the English, but of the wagon that May hitched - against Scottish wishes - to an unpredictable mule going the opposite way."

If they get this second referendum, the lines of argument will be in some ways different from the pre-Brexit referendum. If the second referendum fails, you can guarantee a third will be pursued with other arrows added to the quiver.

The SNP just want out. It's a mixture of the visceral and the thoughtful. There's no need to deny the visceral.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Sturgeon said Britain’s vote to leave the EU had changed the landscape since Scotland last held a referendum on its independence

That's very true.

Scottish lawmakers have complained that their opinions are not taken seriously in London despite May’s assertions that the nations within the UK

That's true too.

the Scottish government was increasingly confident it could win a second independence vote

I'm willing to bet on it. Brexit was highly unpopular in Scotland.

Is there a connection between Scottish nationalism and racism

No. But there is between British nationalism and racism There is a deep connection to anti EU feelings and racism. Nigel Farage is not exactly an open-minded liberal, and the scum he cavorts with like, Marine Le pen, Gert Wilders, and greece's golden dawn are some of the most racist people in Europe

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Hi Spanki, I thought the Spanish Government might privately be open to a political compromise that could encompass the rights of residents of Gibraltar.

Publicly the Spanish Government have declared they would veto Scotland membership. I read a number of other member states have objections both political and economic. When/if Article 50 is triggered relationships once viewed as friendly alliances will sadly turn increasingly bitter and twisted.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"Is there a connection between Scottish nationalism and racism"

"No. But there is between British nationalism and racism."

What a bizarre comment. How do the Scottish nationalists manage to completely divorce themselves from racism while the British ( English? Welsh? Irish? ) nationalists don't?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

How do the Scottish nationalists manage to completely divorce themselves from racism while the British ( English? Welsh? Irish? ) nationalists don't?

Because its not about Scotish nationalism. Its about staying in the EU. The British Nationalists are by and large English muppets like Farage who want a UK together, but out of the EU. Hence British nationalism by English leaders

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

"Because its not about Scotish nationalism. Its about staying in the EU"

What was the last referendum about?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

What was the last referendum about?

In case you didn't know, it was about independence, not nationalism. And the proof is that the only reason the referendum failed was that the EU told Scotland there was no guarantee that they would be let in independently. So why don't you explain how the referendum is nationlistic when the whole country is pro EU? You can't be a nationalist AND be pro EU. Doesn't work

0 ( +3 / -3 )

You can't be a nationalist AND be pro EU.

To leave the control of Westminster for the control of Brussels. Hence the paradox that proves Scottish nationalism to be nothing more than anti-Englishness - therefore, racism.

The irony is that the EU itself is a federalizing structure that has no interest in promoting atomization. Even if Scotland were independent, it wouldn't be inside the EU.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The SNP just want out. It's a mixture of the visceral and the thoughtful. There's no need to deny the visceral.

Residual Anglophobia can't be denied. (It's especially prevalent - curiously - among Belfast loyalists) And it's exactly the same phobia towards 'southerners' that I've witnessed in Liverpool pubs, and that working class southerners show for those in authority.

But were the working class English responsible for the Highland Clearances? Were they tenement landlords? Were they, even, the donkeys who led lions (from across the then-Empire) to their slaughter at the Somme? Of course not.

In Brexit, as so often before, The Owners (to borrow from George Carlin), have deftly sold the public a bogeyman "coming to take our flag," to deflect from the true cause of their discontent.

Enjoy Prime Minister Patrick Stewart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

2 ( +3 / -1 )

To leave the control of Westminster for the control of Brussels.

At least with Brussels you know you're not going to be dragged into America's wars..

Hence the paradox that proves Scottish nationalism to be nothing more than anti-Englishness - therefore, racism.

The english are not a race.

Even if Scotland were independent, it wouldn't be inside the EU.

Yes it would. By leaving the UK it would not be a part of brexit which would make it in the EU by default since they weren't a part of the exit process

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, and England are not and never have been members of the European Union. The United Kingdom is a member state not the sum of its parts, which are defied regions within a member state.

Bottom line SNP want Scotland to become a Independent country. Brexit has presented a priceless opportunity for the First Minster to climb the political equivalent of Ben Nevis and declare another prima facie example of Sasanach ambivalence by a Government in Westminster that has festered since 1297 Battle of Stirling Bridge in first war of Scottish Independence subsequently the angst has been passed down through the generations.

The question of UK-EU membership is an enabler to continue a form of political trench warfare to make another independence referendum a reality.

Nicola Sturgeon is one the most formidable political leaders in Europe. Mrs Sturgeon did not become Scotland's First Minster for the fifth time by accident. Yet sooner or later Nicola Sturgeon's bluff will be tested, and the facade of continued insistence that Scotland's economic future is dependent on EU membership and access to the single market will slip away. All as the reality hits home that Scotland most important trading partners and always will be are Wales, Northern Ireland and yes the English.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"In case you didn't know, it was about independence, not nationalism"

The Scottish Nationalist Party has nothing to do with nationalism? There are no nationalists in it? Their rhetoric seems to indicate there are.

UKIP also argued that the Brexit was about independence. I wouldn't argue for a second there are no nationalists in that party. Also, not all people who voted Brexit were nationalists.

"The whole country is pro EU"

Oh, please. I think you'll find that around 35% of Scots voted leave. I'll also put money on many people who voted SNP in 2015 voted Brexit a year later. I think you'll find voting for a pro-European party and euroscepticism can coexist when voting. Not everyone votes based purely on the issue of Europe.

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IThe Scottish Nationalist Party has nothing to do with nationalism? There are no nationalists in it?

That wasn't your original question. Your question was What was the last referendum about? I answered that it was about independence. NOT nationalism.

UKIP also argued that the Brexit was about independence.

So? UKIP is anti EU. SNP isn't.

Also, not all people who voted Brexit were nationalists.

Most were.

Oh, please. I think you'll find that around 35% of Scots voted leave.

That's a tiny number.

I'll also put money on many people who voted SNP in 2015 voted Brexit a year later.

Feel free to throw your money away.

I think you'll find voting for a pro-European party and euroscepticism can coexist when voting. Not everyone votes based purely on the issue of Europe.

Europe plays a HUGE part in people's lives if the issue is stay or leave. To not think that this is a deciding factor is ridiculous.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Bollocks to Brexit❗️

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Yes it would. By leaving the UK it would not be a part of brexit which would make it in the EU by default since they weren't a part of the exit process

No, afraid not. The UK is a member of the EU, not Scotland. Were it to secede while the UK is still a member, Scotland would be a seceding state, which is out of the EU by default. Neither can Scotland be the remainer state because the European treaties are likewise signed by the UK, not Scotland.

You're being sold a bridge to nowhere.

The english are not a race.

No as strictly defined, but racism incorporates discrimination based on nationality.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Whilst it is true that the outcome of the brexit referendum is highly unpopular in Scotland and has changed the opinions of people, the Scots knew well in advance there would be that referendum, so why the hell didn't they negotiate for their independence referendum to take place after the brexit one? It just isn't cricket to call for another referendum to try to force the desired result. Whether they now like it or not Scotland voted to stay in the union, nothing was conditional on the brexit vote, which whether we all like it or not, happened.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

0 Good Bad Steven C. SchulzMAR. 01, 2017 - 02:07PM JST Yes it would. By leaving the UK it would not be a part of brexit which would make it in the EU by default since they weren't a part of the exit process

No, afraid not. The UK is a member of the EU, not Scotland. Were it to secede while the UK is still a member, Scotland would be a seceding state, which is out of the EU by default.

Not if article 15 is invoked by the UK.

Neither can Scotland be the remainer state because the European treaties are likewise signed by the UK, not Scotland.

Even if I was to give to you that point, remember, Scotland has nothing to lose. It's going to be out of the EU anyway. If they sucede they can then apply as an independent member state.

You're being sold a bridge to nowhere.

That bridge is Brexit. That's the bridge to nowhere.

The english are not a race. No as strictly defined, but racism incorporates discrimination based on nationality.

What discrimination? The right to self-determination? Since when has that been a benchmark of discrimination? If racism or discrimination had anything to do with Scottish independence, the independence movement would not be pro EU. Simple as that

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Whether they now like it or not Scotland voted to stay in the union

How many voted No in IndyRef because the Better Together camp convinced them they'd be kicked out of the EU if they voted for independence?

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@Aly

Because its not about Scotish nationalism. Its about staying in the EU.

No it isn't, had the Scots voted for independence, they would be out of the EU now. And flat broke it may be said

1 ( +4 / -3 )

the Scots knew well in advance there would be that referendum, so why the hell didn't they negotiate for their independence referendum to take place after the brexit one?

The Brexit referendum was set in motion in 2015, when the EU Referendum Bill became law. The Scottish independence referendum had been in the pipeline since 2012 (long before, really) and was held in 2014.

It just isn't cricket to call for another referendum

The accepted word was that Brexit would be voted down. Cameron would never have even entertained the idea of an EU referendum if he thought there was the slightest chance of Brexit actually happening.

One of the main reasons put forward for the Scottish independence referendum failing was the blatant English threat that as an independent country Scotland would be out of the EU on its ear. So they stayed in the UK, voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, and are being told they still have to leave the EU like it or not. That's what's not cricket.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Not if article 15 is invoked by the UK.

The problem is that Scotland only has legal personality because of the UK. That personality doesn't exist separate from or beyond the UK's borders, so Scotland is subject to any action by the UK government.

Scotland has nothing to lose.

Yes it does. It could be out of both unions. Despite everything else, I think the threat of atomization in so many EU countries, such as Spain, Belgium and Italy, would preclude Scotland's EU membership.

What discrimination? The right to self-determination?

But the source and only drive for 'self-determination' in Scotland based on anglophobia. Scottish nationalists don't want to share their space and future with 'those nasty English'. That's it. And that's racism.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Aly Rustom-

Surely you're defeating your own argument. If Scotland leaves The UK (A current member of the EU for at least the next two years) It will have, in effect, left the EU. The reason being Brexit would be irrelevant.

Bigger issues will influence where Scotland stands if independent, than what Scotland wants. As previously mentioned, the Spanish Prime Minister has asserted opposition to Scotland being automatically granted EU member status, in the event of independence, Spain holds the power of Veto. At least five regions pushing for independence and their position looks increasingly intractable. Will the French be thinking of Corsica and Normandy? The Belgians Wallonia and Flanders? The list goes on.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

a few points Firstly, Scottish Nationalism is civic nationalism, not ethic like the British national party. So to compare the SNP to racism is just plain stupid. Secondly, we havent voted for the Tory party in over 50 years, we detest the London-centric policies it brought. e.g. testing the unfair poll-tax in Scotland 1 year before the rest of the county. Thirdly, with the vote for independence last time we were assured (lied to) of many things positive about staying in the Union, one of which as I recall was to be 'part of Europe'..... If the goverment continues to treat the Scottish people to lies and broken promises, I'm not surprised at this news. Lastly, as many people seem to forget, a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP, it is for the people of Scotland to decide to have a fairer more progressive country.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The starting point on this topic should always be to ask whether, in an ideal world, Scotland should be an independent nation. Scotland's very distinctive history, culture, customs, laws, language, and all the other things that make a nation seem to suggest that the answer is clearly yes. This is where we need to start and then try to work backwards to find a solution.

The discussions about budget deficits, trade, currency, oil, the EU, minimising animosity, and all the other legitimate practical concerns are really just about how best to untangle the mess, not substantive arguments for why Scotland should not regain its independence. Slovakia and the Czech Republic are still ironing out their divorce decades later but nobody doubts that it was the right thing to do. Where there's a will, there's a way.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"Residual Anglophobia can't be denied. (It's especially prevalent - curiously - among Belfast loyalists) And it's exactly the same phobia towards 'southerners' that I've witnessed in Liverpool pubs, and that working class southerners show for those in authority."

I've spent quite a lot of time in Liverpool pubs slagging off the south for condemning us to the Tories and there's nothing 'residual' or any other useless adjective needed. It was real dislike/hatred. I've heard similar or worse in Scotland - in some cases directed at me - a tribal Labour voter with utter contempt for the Tories.

We're not politicians here. Just call it out for what it is - dislike/hatred. It helps with an honest discussion.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

No it isn't, had the Scots voted for independence, they would be out of the EU now. And flat broke it may be said



Well they voted to stay in and they're still going to be out of the EU, so a whole lot of good that stay vote did. And why would they be broke? Scotland, not England has the oil.

The problem is that Scotland only has legal personality because of the UK. That personality doesn't exist separate from or beyond the UK's borders, so Scotland is subject to any action by the UK government.

Unless it becomes independent

Yes it does. It could be out of both unions. Despite everything else, I think the threat of atomization in so many EU countries, such as Spain, Belgium and Italy, would preclude Scotland's EU membership.

No they wouldn't. The UK's situation is different from other places such as Spain Italy or Belgium since it voted to leave the EU.

What discrimination? The right to self-determination? But the source and only drive for 'self-determination' in Scotland based on anglophobia. Scottish nationalists don't want to share their space and future with 'those nasty English'. That's it. And that's racism.

Or maybe they're just sick and tired of having their lives run by Downing Street. Ever thought of that?

Surely you're defeating your own argument. If Scotland leaves The UK (A current member of the EU for at least the next two years) It will have, in effect, left the EU. The reason being Brexit would be irrelevant.

The UK is going to begin exit procedures this month. Brexit is very relevant.

Bigger issues will influence where Scotland stands if independent, than what Scotland wants. As previously mentioned, the Spanish Prime Minister has asserted opposition to Scotland being automatically granted EU member status, in the event of independence, Spain holds the power of Veto. At least five regions pushing for independence and their position looks increasingly intractable. Will the French be thinking of Corsica and Normandy? The Belgians Wallonia and Flanders? The list goes on.

The Spanish prime minister can say what he wants to say. At the end of the day they are not going to veto Scotland's entry into the EU. I said it before -going to again- The situation in the UK is different from the other you member states because the UK by itself decided to leave the EU. Remember the first Scottish referendum?The Eu blocked Scottish membership into the EU because the U.K. was already in the Eu. The other secession movements wouldn't have a prayer unless of course the member country in question itself left the EU.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

This is how the surreal the whole process around Scottish Independence has become....

The UK government is in no position to negotiate special deals for the very reason that no legal process or route exists within the Lisbon Treaty to recognize Scotland accession as a stand alone member state. For Nicola Sturgeon to then threaten a referendum and achieve independence could isolate Scotland from both unions.

Sturgeon: new vote on independence likely if Scots get no EU deal

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/28/second-independence-referendum-likely-if-scots-get-no-brexit-deal

As a matter of interest I have made a contribution to the Guardian as I am posting Journalism from there site.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"... from there site."

Mmm. Well, good luck with that....

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On their site perhaps? the Guardian does reflect the more left of center view., but for the purposes of this thread there is a good balance between Nicola Sturgeon outrage and Conservative leader Ruth Davidson retorts of hyperbole.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I'm also struck by how much English resistance there is to independence from people who have never lived, worked or in many cases even visited this place which supposedly hates them and is only being kept solvent thanks to English taxpayers. You would think that an amicable divorce would be possible under these conditions but it seems like England also has an irrational fear of seeing any change in the status quo.

Broadly speaking, I think the opportunities for Scottish independence are quite exciting but also unpredictable. Scotland has a huge diaspora community in places like Canada and the US which are still very proud of their roots (Trump is an unfortunate example). An independent Scotland could implement a right of return and citizenship for all those who can prove Scottish ancestry. Within a few years there could even be more Scottish passport holders than UK ones. I think alot of these people could be tempted to return and build a newly independent Scotland.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@SenseNotSoCommon

Residual Anglophobia can't be denied. (It's especially prevalent - curiously - among Belfast loyalists)

I'd generally agree with that. As a child of English "immigrants" to Scotland, I took my fair sure of teasing as a kid, and sometimes outright hostility for my Englishness. I'd say the nastier attitudes came from those who probably voted not to leave the UK. (I have no evidence. It's just my perception.) Curious indeed. But like their angry equivalents in England, I think the numbers are relatively small. Most people in Scotland have strong connections with England. Nichola Sturgeon is not slow to talk of her Sunderland roots. The SNP will always say it is not about separation but about independence. A former SNP figure, Winnie Ewing, once used the phrase, "Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on". I think (and hope) that is still the attitude taken by most independence supporters.

My question is how can Sturgeon move forward when the SNP don't have the voting majority necessary in the Scottish parliament to legislate for it.

With the support of the Scottish Greens, I think they will have a majority.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I'm torn. Great for Scotland if they go independent, but what about us English, stuck with the Tories or UKIP for eternity? We need the Scottish votes to keep us sane.

Then again, if I were Scottish, I'd be voting "leave".

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Instability within the energy market has provided the greatest shock to Scottish governments current account deficit, a economic blow Holyrood had little control over.

Until Article 50 is triggered and the negotiations unfold it is difficult to make any informed judgements on whether the SNP will make good on a advisory referendum. This presents more than just a additional conundrum politically to May's Government. The is a shot to nothing scenario, risky all the same for both the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments. A certain bumpy ride for sterling.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The problem with the last referendum, the EU referendum (and referenda in general) is that they are usually designed in a way that allows one party (or both) to exploit fear and uncertainty. In the future, Scottish voters should have two seperate referendums.

The first question would be advisory and ask 'Would you prefer that Scotland be an independent nation?'. People would answer this question from the heart without any worries about what the currency would be or what share of UK assets Scotland would get. If the answer was Yes, then the UK and Scotland would sit down and spend a few years drafting a settlement that would reach the best possible compromise on most of the thorny issues. They would then go back to the voters and ask "Should Scotland be an independent nation based on the terms of the UK-Scotland proposal?". This is the only way to hold a serious referendum.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on"

I love it! And the sentiment equally reflects Brexit voters' relationship with London, never mind Brussels.

Ultimately, all politics is local and every voter has a say, something politicians ignore at their peril.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I have much more faith that bureaucrats could negotiate an amicable settlement if Scotland voted for full independence than the forthcoming Article 50 UK withdrawal process from the EU.

The worst case scenario is that UK could just walk away. The subsequent effect on market confidence, sovereign debt, the NATO alliance, the French and Dutch elections, all impossible to calculate.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

And the sentiment equally reflects Brexit voters' relationship with London, never mind Brussels.

Interesting comment. I sometimes wonder why there isn't a push to move the capital and parliament out of London. (Nottingham, Coventry, Leeds, Runcorn, wherever.)

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"I'm torn. Great for Scotland if they go independent, but what about us English, stuck with the Tories or UKIP for eternity? We need the Scottish votes to keep us sane."

Yep. Although I'd change the last word of that sentence to 'moral'. My money is on a Labour/Liberal pact in the near future - possibly before the next election. Half-arsed Toryism with plenty of 'cool' candidates.

Labour and Liberals in the same bed. The Guardian newspaper would be weak at the knees.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Jim

Exactly. An anyone-left-of-Tory alliance for the whole of the UK. We could be like a giant version of Denmark or Sweden!

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@Luca

I just have visions of a Burnham/Cooper type leading a coalition with a jellyfish Liberal banging on about 'pragmatism', 'fairness' and 'inclusiveness'.

It would be like....erm...oh, yes, New Labour.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

All the centralist Yvette Cooper, Rachel Reeves, etc are watching and waiting for Theresa May to call a election.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Jim, itsonly

Don't know if it's the effect of getting older or Trump's election, but the idea of a nice, centrist government installed in Westminster is increasingly appealing....

3 ( +3 / -0 )

lucabrasi,Jimizo, This BBC doc sums up the whole sorry saga.....

Cameron misjudgment laid bare. British politics in a death rattle, Crispin Odey, the epitome of everything that makes the public detest Bankers. John Major lips moving duller than dishwater driving relentlessly voters towards exit. The 18 to 25 group did not bother to even vote, they thought remain was a done deal.

Brexit: A Very British Coup? ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or-tzhDLUqo

2 ( +2 / -0 )

a jellyfish Liberal

That's made my day. Thanks, Jimizo.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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