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$700 bil rescue plan finalized; House to vote Monday

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The stock market of down 665.60, also. The more "no votes", the farther it falls.

Wrong... it started climbing today. If you people would just allow it, the market would, and is, correcting itself.

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Nah, it shows that the republicans don't give two cents for Main Street. They'd rather cry because Pelosi hurt their feelings and they cried all their way back home. < :-)

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Sushi / Alan - This vote proves that more Republicans than Democrats are concerned with wasting the taxpayers' money.

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Alinsky4prez. Republicans bought this one down.

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I knew we could count on Nancy Pelosi.

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I agree with Barney Franks: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/bailout.fallout/index.html#cnnSTCVideo < :-)

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Dem 141 for to 94 against.

Rep 65 for to 133 against. < :-)

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The republicans have voted down the bailout at the moment. So what ever happens to the markets now is the republicans doing.

The stock market of down 665.60, also.

The more "no votes", the farther it falls.

It's workers' IRAs and 401s tanking and the republicans are saying, we don't care.

Time remaining to vote 0:00. Votes Dem 141 to 94 for.

Rep 65 to 133 against. 1 republican not voting.

At this time the republicans have killed it. < :-)

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The block quote got screwed up. the last ">" ends it.

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Okay, neo cons, how about the whole truth? McCain's staff is full of lobbyist for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. This is from Mother Jones (and pardon the long quote):

In McCain's op-ed in the Journal, he and Palin wrote:

For years, Congress failed to act and it is deeply troubling that what we are seeing is an exercise in crisis management rather than sound planning, and at great cost to taxpayers. We promise the American people that our administration will be different. We have long records of standing up to special interests… But McCain's own campaign staffers are those special interests, a fact that casts doubt on both McCain's hiring judgment and his ability to pursue tough reforms of Fannie and Freddie.

Aquiles Suarez, listed as an economic adviser to the McCain campaign in a July 2007 McCain press release, was formerly the director of government and industry relations for Fannie Mae. The Senate Lobbying Database says Suarez oversaw the lending giant's $47,510,000 lobbying campaign from 2003 to 2006.

And other current McCain campaign staffers were the lobbyists receiving shares of that money. According to the Senate Lobbying Database, the lobbying firm of Charlie Black, one of McCain's top aides, made at least $820,000 working for Freddie Mac from 1999 to 2004. The McCain campaign's vice-chair Wayne Berman and its congressional liaison John Green made $1.14 million working on behalf of Fannie Mae for lobbying firm Ogilvy Government Relations. Green made an additional $180,000 from Freddie Mac. Arther B. Culvahouse Jr., the VP vetter who helped John McCain select Sarah Palin, earned $80,000 from Fannie Mae in 2003 and 2004, while working for lobbying and law firm O'Melveny & Myers LLP. In addition, Politico reports that at least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, pocketing at least $12.3 million over the last nine years.

For years McCain campaign manager Rick Davis was head of the Homeownership Alliance, a lobbying association that included Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, real estate agents, homebuilders, and non-profits. According to Politico, the organization opposed congressional attempts at regulation of Fannie and Freddie, along the lines of what John McCain is currently proposing. In his capacity of president of the group, Davis went on record in 2003 and insisted that no further reform of the lenders was necessary, in contradiction to his current boss's sentiments. "[Fannie and Freddie] are subject to an innovative and stringent risk-based capital stress test," Davis wrote. "The toughest in the financial services industry."

Furthermore, the problem of sub-prime loans did not begin with those to agencies. They began with so-called deregulation, which John McCain and the "free market forces" gang pushed for years--and succeeded in instituting under Reagan. That state of affairs allowing crooked capitalists to push people into debt.

Look the banks and the housing industry just didn't passively allow bad loans to happen. They pushed them. They marketed them. They actively persuaded working people to take out loans that they could not afford. Bush and Company did not try to stop this. Neither did McCain. In fact no one did. Reforming Freddie and Fannie would have done nothing or next to nothing to stem the epidemic of sub-prime loans.

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The Bush administration tried to reform oversight of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae back in 2003, but was blocked by DEMOCRATS.sarge is right.

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Sarge - That's the first time you've ever supplied a link, I think. Very good.

But how does this one story strictly about FannieMae and FreddieMac answer your allegation? the US taxpayer has been totally shafted by the Democrats.

John McCain, the deregulation king, has been pushing for deregulations.

http://progressiveaccountability.org/2008/09/17/john-mccain-the-deregulator/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_John_McCain - This article even discribes how Jogn McCain considers aid to the poor as "Pork Barrel spending."

Through the efforts of John McCain the markets have been allowed to steal and lose at no cost $Billions of investers money. < :-)

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McNeoCon- great post. Of course the Dem congress is to blame, but the Democrats blame everything on Bush.

The rescue plan will rescue the US from the greed of bankers and shareholders. This money will be invested for the good of the whole nation.

If Obama was president he would spend it on his favorite social programs, to help minorities and others who expect free government handouts.

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Sushi - Who's been running Congress and wasting billions of dollars recently? Look it up.

Never heard of Franklin Raines or Jim Johnson? Look 'em up.

Alan - Since you can't do your own homework, here's a link to get started:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75586

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way to go sarge, nice to see a real patriot showing the whining liberals that its the DEMOCRATS fault the economy is in this state. The eight glorious years of fiscal genius from President Bush are certainly NOT to blame its the fault of the DEMOCRAT controlled congress. even a little kid should be able to work than one out.

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Sarge, since you know the facts, place the link here that proves your point.

the US taxpayer has been totally shafted by the Democrats. Look it up.

Show me your facts. < :-)

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"Sushi, the US taxpayer has been totally shafted by the Democrats. Look it up."

Look what up? Democrats haven't been running govt. for the last 8 years.

What are you talking about?

And perhaps you haven't looked up the fact that US Govt. debt always rises under a Republican administration.

In recent years, US national debt went up under Reagan, up under Bush I, DOWN under Clinton , and has since skyrocketed under Bush II.

So again, what are you talking about?

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Sushi, the US taxpayer has been totally shafted by the Democrats. Look it up.

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Heh, this bailout and the insane spending behind the war in Iraq just underlines how the US taxpayer has been totally shafted by the bush administration.

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I'm glad we have all these republicans who have been for deregulation and have argued against guidelines for the stock market are so much against the bailout. It's deregulation that allowed the market to get in such bad shape.

Is it becaused they are really against the bailout or they want to distance themselves fron it so they can just cry at the democrats? They want to blame the democrats when they caused this situation. < :-)

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zurc - I said McCain's going to end foreign aid, not our efforts to wipe >out the scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or >remorse. But of course I was just kidding about that. America will >continue to be the world's leading donor of aid as well as the leading >light and hope of the world under President McCain and Vice President >Palin.

Hey buddy, that light has gone out after the failed invasion of iraq and the socialization of the US finance industry by the bush crony capitalist. But I am glad you were just kidding when you posted that tripe about eliminating foreign aid. Honestly, are you kidding all the time when you post? That would explain a lot.

VP Palin, please. She can see Russia from her house! Failing Palin is going back to her ice box and lets hope this time she keeps her teenagers from getting knocked up again.

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ThuleSociety - "The rescue plan will be spent wisely, with the tax payers interest motivating the governments spending plans."

Interesting opinion.....

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Sushi, it seems you don't get that all these aid packages have "USA" emblazoned on them, not "China." Heck, if they had "China" emblazoned on them, most of them would probably be returned as no one wants to get poisoned, not even the starving.

Moderator: All readers back on topic please. The subject is the bailout of financial institutions.

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The rescue plan will be spent wisely, with the tax payers interest motivating the governments spending plans.

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Sarge - "America will continue to be the world's leading donor of aid."

Sarge, it seems the irony hasn't struck you yet that America is borrowing money off China to give back in aid to ....China.

What do you think about that?

Sarge - "McCain's going to end foreign aid, not our efforts to wipe out the scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse."

You mean the ones you put there? That wasn't very clever, was it?

Why have you supported such a nutjob president for so long??

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ThuleSociety - "SushiSake3- Bush and co have certainly not blown 8 Trillion Dollars."

Here's a little test.

1/ Tell us US national debt at the start of bush's 1st term. 2/ Tell us US national debt now. 3/ Tell us the difference between the answers of a/ and b/

Bonus question: Then tell us why bush and co. have blown such a huge amount of money.

Thanks!

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zurc - I said McCain's going to end foreign aid, not our efforts to wipe out the scumbags who would torture and kill you without hesitation or remorse. But of course I was just kidding about that. America will continue to be the world's leading donor of aid as well as the leading light and hope of the world under President McCain and Vice President Palin.

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Sushi - "What is john mccain going to do about this huge debt problem?"

President McCain is going to end foreign aid.

Oh Sarge, what a good idea. He can start with the $10 billion a month we are spending in Iraq. That is the first good idea you ever had on this board. I am proud of you. I will put in a word with the general to get you an extra ration of dessert.

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SushiSake3- Bush and co have certainly not blown 8 Trillion Dollars.

Bush has been a prudent president and McCain is sure to continue with th same policies, which will ensure Americas prosperity continues.

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ThuleSociety - "Bush and then McCain will invest wisely, you can bank on that."

After you have watched Bush and co. blow nearly $8 trillion, you simply don't have a case.

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I agree with sarge and McNeoCon. Bush and then McCain will invest wisely, you can bank on that.

Obama would squander the money on his commie social projects for the unemployed and single parents.

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Another victory for President Bush. Mr McCain will be carrying on the Republican success story; much to the dismay of the beaten American left when the obama ship sinks on November.

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President McCain is going to end foreign aid.

That would be awesome. He should keep copies of all those articles from the foreign press that has the 'nads to talk about Obama being best for our country. As president, when something happens and they need aid... he should mail them a copy of the article with an "ask him" written across it in big red letters.

Of course.... he won't.

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Sushi - "What is john mccain going to do about this huge debt problem?"

President McCain is going to end foreign aid.

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Hey, if it wasn't for McCain and the republican's, this plan would have just given the money to Paulson. At least now, the companies are required to participate in the bailout thru insurance, the coffers of ACORN isn't being fattened, and there is some oversight and accountability. None of which was in Paulson's "blank check" plan, and very very little of it in the socialist plan put forth by the left.

As bad as it is... it would have, and still could be, much worse if the dem's had their way.

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Additional note to self: Why do so many Republicans continually to have a head-in-the-sand approach to US national debt?

Are they really that stupid?

What is john mccain going to do about this huge debt problem besides making it worse by continuing the $15 billion-a-month war in Iraq?

Answers: Unknown.

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The recent bill under the George W. Bush Administration:

$1 trillion+, likely to be $3 trillion when finished - War in Iraq (Note to self: totally unnecessary:)

$700 billion market bailout - banks' bad assets sold to US taxpayers

(Note to self: While the GWB was not totally responsible for this market disaster, it does bear a substantial amount of blame considering it has been in power for the last 8 years and market analysts were talking about a bursting of the housing market a good 4 years ago. What did the GWB administration do about it? Nothing.)

$612-billion - defence bill (Note to self: This comprises approx. $70 billion for for Iraq and Afghanistan.)

TOTAL (Minimum): $2.4 TRILLION

Final note to self: America is currently paying $200 billion annually in debt servicing costs. How many more domestic programs will be added to the list of those that have already been cut, frozen or downsized to pay for all of this out-of-control spending?)

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I hope the government eventually gets back at least some of that $700 billion.

I think the greedy, corrupt scumbags responsible for this fiasco, including Senator Obama's advisors, should be sentenced to hard labor for a good number of years. But that'll never happen.

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This is JT, so might as well bring up the infusion of Japanese capital into Wall Street. The overall problem will be ameliorated with the requested capital. Japanese banks are just helping out like when they were helped out in the 1990's.

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I guess when you have nothing to lose, big deal.

There are those of us who have been saving for years and just hate to be screwed. < :-)

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Quote from the article above “The center of gravity is here temporarily. ... God forbid it’s here any longer than it takes to get credit moving again.”

With this attitude the government is just throwing money away. Now more companies have no assets than at the start of the Great Deppresion and they want to get further into lumber. When are people going to wake up to the fact that companies worth billions have no assets. Until investment and assets balance in value the stock market can crash at any time like Wall St did in the 30s for the same reason. The only way to stop this happening is to let the dud companies go bust and keep the $700 Billion to restart the economy insteady of bailing out people greedy enough to invest in fresh air which is what they have been doing. It is time to cull and save the healthy companies, not prop up companies that will drag the economy down for years to come. Better a couple of years of pain than another 20. There is no such animal as "mortgage-related assets held by cash-starved financial firms." these so called "assets" are actually "liabilities" the government is taking over on behalf of the tax payer, if they were assets people would invest in them and there would be no cash shortage. No one has said what the government will do with this huge liability once they have it or the cost to the tax payers of holding these liabilities. The cheapest thing would be to turn it into public housing and just write off the $700 bil but the politicians have thought that far ahead yet too busy with elections to think important things through properly.

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there is a $7500 tax incentive to buy a principal place of living (first home) -basically a 0% loan. -Federal Housing Tax Credit-

This is a credit, if you paid only $100 in taxes you get a check for $7400.

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So basically what everyone here is saying that it's the end of life as we know it. It's OK, we had a nice run for a while there.

What's on TV?

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The sad fact is that things are so bad a bail out is the only way to avert complete disaster. But will we learn anything from it?

We live in a neo-feudal era where we have surrendered ourselves to the mercy of corporations. They overrun our interests in politics, the environment, in the fate of our economy. They run things in our "democracies" while the rest of us live under the illusion that our votes and rights mean something.

This is a message that we need to reign in the wild west of corporate rule and start taking back some of the power to the public. Do we really want our entire fate based upon the profit driven thinking of greedy men and women who make up most of the global economic leaders now?

Anyone could have predicted that these plans would fall at some point. But they jus didn't care. They saw near term profits and ignored long term thinking and have nearly taken out our global economy with this fiasco.

I hope can leverage this to reign these guys back in. Make them accoutable and stop giving them such a blank check for running things.

Time to wake up working people and demand your place at the table again.

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Sounds like the common taxpayer is getting a bit screwed in this instance. But just from my basic understandings I guess we have to take the medicine. My wife discussed about a Newsweek Japan article that said at least with the American system, when measures like this need to be taken American will act quickly (maybe not in the best interest of the taxpayer) to get a solution while in Japan, the government is slow moving as what happened with the downturn in the 90's. Maybe so, but I have a solution on how American could get some of its money back:

Go through the prisons, and deport all illegal aliens back to their home countries. The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. So at an average cost to the US taxpayer of $30,000 that comes to aroudn $8 billion right there. A good amount to pay down on the debt that we owe. Let their own nations take care of their bad citizens. Go to the Emergency rooms, and let the people know that services are only for bonafide US citizens are legal resident aliens. Go through the schools and make sure that only legal residents or US citizens are enrolled. Go back over the books, and let's see how many debts we have forgave from past loans to other countries and see what is still owed us. Then ask them to pay.

Not trying to turn this into an illegal alien rant, but when you go before a bankruptcy judge in the US, they go through all of your finances with a fine comb to see where you have excess that can be used to pay off your debts to the very same companies that are getting bailed out now. Let's do the same for the US government, and look where our money is being spent, and try to get some of it back.

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It proves that the Hedge funds have an edge over FED, now the question is...for how long?

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We are told not to be surety (insurance) for anyone and not to get in debt. Credit, debt and insurance are against Divine guidance. With this guidance we know that bailouts will not solve the problem. It will do more damage than good. Housing will not be the secure investment in the minds of people again; they will not expect the price will always be much higher in the future. Banks will not lend freely again for the same reason. Many will lose their jobs; but that solution is also found in this letter.

Our banking loan system and insurance institutions have led us into much bondage, (because of the ease of living on borrowed money, powerful military mechanisms, energy crisis, pollution, disease, wars, and higher costs on most things we buy and do. People bought and sold before these institutions without the added costs and they can do it again.

There is another way to get things done. Look at what a small part of a payment pays toward ending a mortgage for the first 15 years of a thirty year mortgage. On a car payment, it is the same according to their term. These institutions can now end interest charges and just charge a small handling fee each month and use the payments to pay down the loans. Families will work together to pay a debt they can see an end to. This will benefit the country, investors and make the dollar strong again.

For those who lose their jobs, they can begin a garden paradise, retirement lifestyle that will have them quickly fully independent in their communities. The goal in life is not to work 40-60 years and retire. It is to retire now; make an environment where all your needs are available nearby. That is true freedom.

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GAWD Stop the pain!!!!

I can't believe this. We're being screwed like never before. Honestly, this is the worst in history.

At least in the depression the rich lost their shirts, too. But today only the lowly taxpayer picks up the tab, success or not.

It's not just bad loans that were made. People are loosing their jobs like never before. They can't keep up with house payments and I haven't heard a thing to help the home owner save their homes. This is only money to prop up the market.

So again, the middle class taxpayer is propping up the multi-rich at the expense of the middle class.

This isn't a bail-out. It's a screw job. < :-)

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I want to thank Sen. McCain for being the savior in these matters; the entire financial structure of the world would have collapsed if it were not for his efforts.

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What is wrong with simply defaulting out of the debt? Historically, it has been defaulting which has 'shaken off the chains' (to quote Solon) and enable rebuilding and re-establish prosperity. Of course, if this happens, we would have to use our memory to stop this from happening again. That can be a big ask for the elites and those in power when tabloid politics is all that seems to count.

KN

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As usual the little people, the plebs, pay for the excesses of the rich and the elite. Nothing ever changes does it??

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PROXY: Its not as simple as that. Firstly, there is no way America can ever repay its debts, and if the holders of Treasury Bonds were to try to recall their loans, the bond market would collapse and their holdings would be worthless. So, because those debts cannot be repaid, they in a real sense, do not exist. However because China and the other big creditors know this, they are much more likely now to purchase American assets rather than fund a government that has very little control over its own financial future. BUT --and it's a big BUT (rather fitting for America)-- China and all of the emerging economies are dependent on the US consumer market. Not only is it huge, but it is utterly undiscriminating. Americans seem to buy anything, even things that have no purpose. China regards a large part of its Treasury Bill holdings as the unrecoverable cost of keeping the American consumer market intact.

At this moment in time the emerging economies cannot afford a sudden collapse in the American market. They have to allow totally bankrupt consumers to continue to get access to credit so that they can buy in the frenzied and crazed fashion that exists nowhere outside America. Exactly how this will be achieved is not entirely clear, but China and the others will have to accommodate American credit while they diversify their markets. This diversification is already under way. While the US couldn't see what was coming, China could and did. One way or another, it will spur an uncontrollable wave of inflation which will take many Americans out. Neither the US Government nor the Chinese will care about that. The greedy go to the wall, and the stupid and the greedy go even quicker.

The poor in America and elsewhere will be the true victims, and it will be ugly. The crooks who spurred this financial melt-down will take billions in personal wealth with them to their tax havens. US corporations have long since stopped being American. They will happily transfer from New York to Dubai or Mumbai, or Shanghai. The exodus is already under way. And because American insfrastructure is now among the weakest in the OECD, foreign investors will cease operating plants in the US as soon as it is clear that the US market is drying up.

So the empire will die, it will be a slow change, because the merging world cannot afford and will not permit a rapid one. America's main problem is that although it is defeated all the time, it refuses to accept that reality. In the American psyche, winning, at any expense, even the brains of children splattered against the wall, is all that matters. Meantime, Americans will continue strutting and threatening to kick butt, waving their flags. USA! USA! USA! (Fade)

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I really don't not want to see the US suffer through an even worse situation in 6 months when the FDI runs out of money. Take your medicine now, and get it over with so that people can look to the future without this, at least, $700 billion monkey on their back. A lot of the bad assets are still on the books at par value, when they sell them for 50 cents on the dollar to taxpayers, balance sheets are going to get uglier and the panic will return, with $700 billion wasted.

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Bailout? LOL. Jeez. An entire model of government and economic policy has collapsed. The sewage is gonna back up a looooooong way. Get your gumboots on Americans, its spalsh back time right across the board.

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What on Earth went wrong?????

Only VP Cheney can explain to it !

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mccain has been 'making phonecalls' to people involved in the process.

But I thought he was The Dealmaker?

What on Earth went wrong?????

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"significant progress on bailout"

The taxpayers are significantly closer to saying "$700 billion, bye, bye."

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Bail out hand outs in just enough amounts for wall street companies is okay .

Wall street crooks must be caught and taken to courts to expose the financial scandals crooks.

The cause of fall of wall street needs to exposed to public via courts/probes.

World finance confidence needs more informations of these scandals to prevent them.

There is a need for full informations of scandals, for future improvement.

The check and balance systems have to be upgraded in rebuilding finance companies and finance systems.

The confidence among public for finance companies need to rebuillt in a new proper way.

The financial storms must be weathered through before it gets better.

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Progess on baiout = "working poors to re-build wall street" though plenty of cash-flow in global markets.

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