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SlutWalk comes to Washington

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The sign the woman is carrying in the picture says;

My short skirt is not an invitation to rape me

Nothing ever can justify rape, that's on thing.

There is another one. The way you dress says a lot about you.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I totally agree. Nothing can every justify an assault, but, like it or not, dress is important.

These women want to walk around in short skirts and revealing blouses. Fine. But my bet is that women dressed like that are raped or molested more often than women dressed modestly. You can go around proclaiming "My short skirt is not an invitation to rape me." all you want, but like it or not, your dress does attract attention, sometimes unwanted attention.

No, the rape or molestation is not the woman's fault, but there are things she can do to help protect herself.

Not dressing too provocatively and not walking down dark lonely streets alone at night are some examples of those common sense things.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Guys, I think the point of the action is a calling for men to evolve past their impulses to attack women just because they feel provoked.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Try and go beyond "that lovely ass hanging out" or "those firm melons" "those pipe-fitters's lips", and see the woman as a whole being, a person, and individual, a sister.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I think the point of the action is a calling for men to evolve past their impulses

That infers that any man can be a rapist...I don't think so.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Let me know when the Tokyo Slut march is going to be held, I'd love to go watch ;-))

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The so called anti-war movement was obviously never about war or we'd see them out protesting Libya. Looks like the women found something to 'protest' about. Do the males feel left out?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

For the folks who think that being dress in short skirts and what-not invites rape: what about elderly women who are raped? Do you think they were dressed ''slutty'' when they were assaulted?

People tend to forget or not understand that rape is about power and control, not about how a woman is dressed.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

It serves a purpose, this is not bad. But it will pass quickly, like Lenny Bruce's thing about getting all our racist slurs out into the open so we can get past them. Did we?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

tjguy: " But my bet is that women dressed like that are raped or molested more often than women dressed modestly."

Only for the apes, and that's part of the point.

soundandthefury: "Try and go beyond "that lovely ass hanging out" or "those firm melons" "those pipe-fitters's lips", and see the woman as a whole being, a person, and individual, a sister."

These comments are borderline insulting. Physical attraction is a part of nature, and no one knows it more than a lot of women I know, hence they dress to look good. That doesn't mean all men who look at a little cleavage are going to try and rape them. A very, very small group of sick and demented people of both genders (believe it or not) will engage in physical and sexual violence, but not all of either group.

Anyway, not sure if the slut-march thing accomplishes much, but if it makes people more aware and debate the issue then it's a whole lot better than doing nothing.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

plasticmonkey: "It serves a purpose, this is not bad. But it will pass quickly, like Lenny Bruce's thing about getting all our racist slurs out into the open so we can get past them. Did we?"

Agree it's not bad. If it were Japan it would pass quickly, like the knee-high stalkings, but it's pretty clear it's become a trend in a lot of other places and hopefully an annual event in some.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

For the folks who think that being dress in short skirts and what-not invites rape: what about elderly women who are raped? Do you think they were dressed ''slutty'' when they were assaulted?

People tend to forget or not understand that rape is about power and control, not about how a woman is dressed.

Absolutely.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Try and go beyond "that lovely ass hanging out" or "those firm melons" "those pipe-fitters's lips", and see the woman as a whole being, a person, and individual, a sister.

Yes, but would you want you sister dressing like that? How about your mother? Or grandmother? ewww

0 ( +0 / -0 )

you = your

0 ( +0 / -0 )

These women are actually going about this the wrong way. A man is unlikely to attack a woman due to her attire. When they had a slutwalk in London recently the way they demonstrated upset a lot of people.Of ocurse dressing like that get teh attention for their cause , but to be honset they look like idiots. If i went on a demonstration aginst scholl bullying and dressed like a boy with shorts and cap people would spend more to laughing and pitying me about why i was there.

Rape is a very serious matter and should be treated as such. Thing is women and men are raped regardless of their attire.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

A man is unlikely to attack a woman due to her attire.

That's not really the point. The point is that a woman's attire is often used against her, post-rape, to damage her credibility, dismiss her trauma, and to excuse her rapist.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Steve: "When they had a slutwalk in London recently the way they demonstrated upset a lot of people."

I doubt they went out there to attract men, Steve.

"Rape is a very serious matter and should be treated as such. Thing is women and men are raped regardless of their attire."

How are the people who partake in the slut-walk not taking rape seriously? Some of them HAVE been raped! I agree with Triumvere: that people were upset by seeing them or on your statement that men are not attracted to women who dress 'loosely', so to speak, isn't the issue -- that people later try and justify it by pointing to the clothes IS! There's a reason that the rape-shield law has been developed in many nations -- courts will try to use a woman's sexual history to lighten the guilt of the person who assaulted her. Likewise clothes should never be used as an excuse.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Triumvere; I haven't herad the attire defence for decades in the UK at least. Have heard about in Japan, but not the US surely. I know some defence will tryhard to find anything they consider sleazy about a womans character though.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Try and go beyond "that lovely ass hanging out" or "those firm melons" "those pipe-fitters's lips", and see the woman as a whole being, a person, and individual, a sister.

But I love lovely ass, firm melons and lips - is there some program I can take to help me?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

smithin japan; Seems you enjoy fllowing em around here to pick bones from my posts.

Firstly many women were offended by the LOndon parade. Not just their attire but confrontational attitude.Did i say it was only men offended? Many women are going on this mainly because they have had stick from some in the media about their attire and join in for that reason.

Yu are implying quite nasty things about me yet again which i find offensive. I stated why dressing liek this is not a good idea. 1- Rapists do not just attack because of clothing. 2- Slut walk is a childish name that is making them klook desperate for attention. 3- I said that others will not be taken seriously not the protestors. Yet again it seems some posters heer are trying to put me on trial for no reason.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

People tend to forget or not understand that rape is about power and control

This is certainly true. But it is also true that rape is about sex as well. There are commonalities, but we need to be honest about the fact that there are different sorts of rape and different kinds of rapists.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Triumvere; I haven't herad the attire defence for decades in the UK at least. Have heard about in Japan, but not the US surely. I know some defence will tryhard to find anything they consider sleazy about a womans character though.

As progressive as the UK is, I would be surprised if this line of thinking was erradicated; it may not play as well with the courts as it used to, but it seems to show up pretty much anywhere in the world you go, and may serve to intimidate a victim or sway a juror. Ironically, it is often women who are pushing it - there is a sort of unconcious calculus that says: "If she was raped, that must be because she was a "bad" girl. I'm a good girl, so therefore this could never happen to me; I'm safe."

As to the slutwalk itself - I really don't know what to think about it. I'm not sure if it effective, ineffective or even detrimental as a strategy to fight rape and rape apology, Mostly, I'm thinking: "I'm not a woman, nor have I been raped. It's not my place to tell these women what they should or should not do."

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Steve: "Not just their attire but confrontational attitude.Did i say it was only men offended?"

I didn't address your comment and say you said men were offended -- I said 'people'.

"Yu are implying quite nasty things about me yet again which i find offensive."

Truth hurts.

"I stated why dressing liek this is not a good idea."

Actually, you didn't say why -- you just said in your opinion it's a bad idea. True, you tried to follow it up with some flimsy notion that people in the UK were right in being upset by it, but that's not a 'reason'.

"1- Rapists do not just attack because of clothing."

And as I and others have posted we agree with you there, but the fact remains people use clothing as a reason to justify rape after the fact. Fortunately, that's changing, and with events such as this hopefully it changes faster.

"2- Slut walk is a childish name that is making them klook desperate for attention."

Not sure they're 'klooking' desperate for attention, but the name, while I agree it is not in the best taste, is an exclamation point on a problem that needs one.

"3- I said that others will not be taken seriously not the protestors."

Well good on ya! But you implied what the protesters are doing is disturbing and that they won't be taken seriously (in terms of the issue).

"Yet again it seems some posters heer are trying to put me on trial for no reason."

Isn't it ironic that you say this when these women are saying the guilty should be seen as guilty and the victims not made the excuse? Steve, no one here is bashing you -- they are commenting very rationally (for the most part) on comments you have made, nothing less. If you feel that you are being 'put on trial' as a result, maybe that says something about you and your comments?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

If clothing made rapists of men, every beach in the world would be full of helpess souls unable to prevent themselves from leaping on barely-clad lovelies at noon.

This is a non-issue blown up to make comfortably middle-class young women with no real problems feel like revolutionaries and upset their fathers at the same time.

Some people need to get a sense of perspective and start protesting about what really needs changing.

3 ( +5 / -3 )

rape is a crime, and nothing in the world justifies rape. there is no such thing as "provoked to rape". unfortunately, things get very bad for raped women when there are no witnesses, and it's just her word against his. there is no simple solution to this (better lie detectors in the future maybe?)

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Ivan Coughanoffalot; I agree. They were in the UK media, especially in London and many jumped onto teh bandwagon as a "womens rights" thing.

What if men had walked around in little hot pants and a string vests, would the protestors be pleased. Male rape is quite a common event these days.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

However we dress where ever we go Yes means yes, No means NO

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Agrees with christina ..Great name by the way

0 ( +0 / -0 )

in the uk theyare on abouyt if a rapist comes clean they will reduse the sentance wich i find dispicable

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is a non-issue blown up to make comfortably middle-class young women with no real problems feel like revolutionaries and upset their fathers at the same time.

Quite true. We have them in the States. In cities like S.F. , up until the Iraq War, with little else to get worked up about, they occasionally decided they needed to protest the rampant 'sexism' in society, most of em simply parading their consciences in a cheap and risk-free manner. When the war in Iraq started many of the same women could be seen in 'anti-war' protests marching topless.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Ricky O'Neill; This is ken Clarkes idea to reduce the prison population and he also wants it to include murder and other very serious crimes. It would mean that when a man may now get 10 years and possibly release in 3.5 years, thee rapist could be released in 18 months. I don't think these new plans will come to fruition, well i hope not.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

what ken clarke said was wrong he said some rapes were not as bad as others and there should suffer lighter sentances ..it was a female that said about redusing the sentance if the crime was admitted ..if you remeber ken caused an upraor and rape is rape regardless ill get the womans name it will take me a while to go thru bbc hard talk

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If the dastardly crime of rape was ever to be excused on a womans attire, then how on earth can anyone account for Muslim women covered from head to toe also being victims of rape.Rape is a sexual act performed without the consent of the victim be they iether male or female. A rapists defence of provocative clothing should not be taken into consideration. Women wear far less when visiting seaside resorts ie bathing suits, bikinis, if attire is a defence then every sun seeker become a potential victim

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Steve: "What if men had walked around in little hot pants and a string vests, would the protestors be pleased. Male rape is quite a common event these days."

Is it now? Can you give us stats, outside of prison, of course.

Christina O'Neill: VERY well said.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

smithinjapan; Yes male rape is a large problem especaially younger men that are preyed on. The London Met police believe reported male rapes may be as low as 2%. There are a lot of gay men around and they would likely have as many rapists and perverts as any other section of society.

Has anyone except for a nutcase or a sick lawyer ever said there is an excuse for rape?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I don't believe that men who are predisposed to rape women are looking at what they are wearing before they commit their crime. Rape is mostly about power and control not fashion. However my mother always told me that how I dressed is how I would be perceived by people. You are free to dress as you like in most locales but why would want to demean yourself by dressing like a tart. As a woman I find this sort of demonstration to be self serving and embarrassing.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@steve I believe that you are correct in that perhaps your comments are being marked down from your past postings. Although I sometimes disagree with your past posts, I find it interesting that much of what you say is in line as what others are saying, yet your post is being singled out. Perhaps people are not reading your post through?

From what I understand of the article, I believe the statement that these women are trying to express is that regardless of their attire, sexual desires or even behaviour, they have a right to choose to have sex or not. Perhaps a more stark example would be that even if they were prostitutes, it does not give another person the right to rape them. That's just what I am getting from this.

I think that they have a valid point as well. Just because a woman may appear sexually alluring does not give another person the right to rape them.

I do think that dressing provocatively may indeed increase sexual desire but that is irrelevant. That's like saying someone who walks around scowling at people deserves to be murdered because they made the other person angry.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

steve: "smithinjapan; Yes male rape is a large problem especaially younger men that are preyed on. The London Met police believe reported male rapes may be as low as 2%."

I asked you for stats, bud, not backtracking. Give us a link, please.

"There are a lot of gay men around and they would likely have as many rapists and perverts as any other section of society."

Ummm... outside of prison, no there would not be. It's been said homosexuals represent roughly 10% of the human population. It would therefore stand to reason that if there ARE men who will jump some guy based on how he's dressed and go on to rape him they would be 10% or so of all rapes around the world, at max. How is that 'as many rapists and perverts', Steve?

"Has anyone except for a nutcase or a sick lawyer ever said there is an excuse for rape?"

A lot of people have, actually, and one reason they've given continually is "Well... gosh.... guffaw.... she was dressed like a slut", and/or bring up the woman's history. That's the whole point of the movement, my friend.

Please stop trying to backtrack on your comments.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

smithinjapan; Never back tracked on any of my comments. 10% is a lot of gay man in a whole country. Yeta agin you afil to raed my posts and come out witj nonsense to try and bash me. Well, nit just me but others can see what a fool you are making of yourself.

Gay men are as aliely to rape as straight men. In UK there are 25 million adult males. Rapes by men or women are estimated at 10-15,000 a year. So male on male rape is likely to be 1-1.5 thousand. Hardly insignificant. Why are you so conceneed by this anyway? Rape is not just by straight men. Ever heard of Catholic priests for example?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

steve: "smithinjapan; Never back tracked on any of my comments. 10% is a lot of gay man in a whole country. Yeta agin you afil to raed my posts and come out witj nonsense to try and bash me. "

Steve... spell checker, please. Second, I'm still waiting on the links to the stats you claim are true. That said, you said, and I quote: "There are a lot of gay men around and they would likely have as many rapists and perverts as any other section of society."

but how can that possibly be the case at only 10%? You yourself just admitted it's only 10%, so how is that "THEY WOULD LIKELY HAVE JUST AS MANY...." in your books? Are you saying 'per capita'? Even then it's still 1/10th of non-gay rapists, and yet you still manage to suggest only gay men are capable of assault.

Amazing, Steve. You've outdone yourself again.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

steve: "Gay men are as aliely to rape as straight men."

What about gay women, steve? We're not backtracking to your gender stereotypes again, are we?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

smithinjapan; The protests and article are not about female rape. i never stereotype BTW, which is what you are doing now to me on an almost daily basis.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

steve: " i never stereotype BTW, "

Yes, you do. You said women should alls tay home until the kids are of school age, and that a man must provide for his family, and not vice-versa. Just proving you wrong, again.

Still waiting for the links, Steve. Just say yes or no right now as to whether you can provide them, if you prefer to stop deflecting.

"The protests and article are not about female rape."

The protests and article are not about gay males raping each other either, are they? and yet you felt fit enough to bring that up and claim, literally, that gay men raping other men as just as big a number in terms of problem. If anything, my retort is more relevant than your backtracking -- the article is about women being abused, many of those taking part who have, but it doesn't state who abused them in all cases. Tell me, is it more likely a gay male raped these women, or a gay female... if it were a homosexual, I mean?

I look forward to your next backtrack, steve.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

steve: "i never stereotype BTW, which is what you are doing now to me on an almost daily basis."

How do I stereotype you? Is there a group of steves on here I label as being the same in some way? Along with the spell-checker, get a dictionary.

And again, you're not the victim here, Steve, these women (or those they represent) are.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

well you need to change your station steve LBC is not readily available on UK normal radio try listening to BBC world service every now and then LBC is a sat-alight station and is run by anarchists not all their Info is exact nor are their figures yes they try to give both sides of the news and the news we don't here if they were a newspaer they would be a tabloid

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sexual topic again. Logic keeps flying out the window. And then logic gets replaced with slogans, and I am not sure if they help, or if they actually make people dumber.

A favorite slogan I suppose is: Stop blaming the victim! This one is blurted out on reflex anytime someone suggests a preventative measure. Well, the world does not revolve around any of us. You have to take measures to protect yourself. If you can't be bothered, we can't really help you. We really can't.

Most important of all, and much more important than clothes, is that women need to avoid a situation where it will surely be a "he said, she said" situation. Because if it comes down to that, everyone, including the police, will say anything to wipe their hands of it, whether it sounds like blaming the victim, or if it sounds like blaming the season. This is because no one can prove anything. They really can't help you then. Because only two people know the truth and they oppose eachother.

But too many women think the world should be perfect and they should do nothing to protect themselves. That is sheer madness. There are lots of things women can do, but they cannot even be bothered to think about it it seems.

And I could write some good advice. But I know this post will get derided so why should I bother?

Another favorite slogan is that rape is about power, not sex. As said by another, its both. Its so obviously both. Painfully obvious even. Yet that silly slogan gets trotted out again and again. Its like some people don't want to see! It does no one any good to deny the sexual aspect of rape. In fact, that sort of foolishness guarantees there will be more rape, so I have to question the people who came up with that gem.

And finally," I should be able to dress as I want!" Of course you "should"! And I "should" have a billion dollars! But that is nothing to do with reality. How a woman dresses can seriously affect men's minds. Women have a strong power, and I am happy to suggest they harness it and use it. But if they use it irresponsibly, they will have problems, same with any power.

Look at this way. We live in a world of very well trained lions. You may be able to lead them by the nose by waving meat in their faces most of the time. But if you take it too far, some of them are going to snap despite their training. There are a lot of ways to take it too far, and how you dress is but one small example. The thing about how you dress is that it is not aimed at the one lion you target. Every danged lion in the vicinity sees it and it riles them up. And so, how YOU dress can get ANOTHER woman raped, usually not all by itself, but it IS part of the equation.

Frankly, the women who say they should be able to dress as they want remind me of the NRA people who think guns should not have any restrictions. At its heart it the same flippant irresponsible attitude.

That said, I am one of the best trained lions in the world. But I have known plenty of lions who were poorly trained, and I implore women to guard themselves against them and not provoke them. They won't change and skimpy clothes in the wrong neighborhood are not worth it.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Stan; ilisten and watch online. I don't take as gospel anything, that is why i use many different media to get a broader picture. LBC is pretty impartial especially Ken and Dave on Saturday.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

They may be sluts, but they're not ignorant sluts.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This march is a good thing if it makes people more aware of the issue, bottom line. I don't care if some prudes in Britain were upset by the women walking around saying they wished rape were less or non-existant. Anyone offended by this just doesn't want to acknowledge the problem and sees the people as a disturbance, not ironically how many police see some women, scantily clad or not, who have been raped and have the courage to come to them and say what happened.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

sarge: "They may be sluts, but they're not ignorant sluts."

Errr... not a good joke, my friend. They're "sluts" for being raped or because of their clothes? The 'slut' thing is meant to be ironic. I pray you didn't miss that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ivan CoughanoffalotAug. 14, 2011 - 08:02PM JST

If clothing made rapists of men, every beach in the world would be full of helpess souls unable to prevent themselves from leaping on barely-clad lovelies at noon.

How many men are so stupid they would try that on a crowded beach in broad daylight? To all women, daylight is their friend, and so are numbers of people, especially the ones they trust being close to them. A beach has that in spades.

Now walk down a dark alley alone on the wrong side fo the tracks wearing nothing but a bikini. Might be able to get away with that a couple times. But I guarantee that eventually that woman will gather enough attention that she will be raped a higher percentage dressed like that than the same woman doing the same but in long baggy coat buttoned all the way up.

This is not a question of absolutes and blacks and whites. Its a matter of increasing odds. The way a woman dresses can and will increase or decrease those odds. Like it, or not, does not apply to the equation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

rape is rape and victims are the ones that have to deal with it regardless of race sex and religion it happens in all walks of life and should have the maximum sentence its worse than murder cause it shatters a victim nobody has the right to touch anybody without consent . they should limit these topics to 2 posts per person ...and posts that show negativity towards a person should be removed and that should go rite round the board

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

smithinjapan; Sorry, i thought you were trying to be funny with my spelling. A certain poster kept going on about it not long ago after i explained the reasons.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This is SlutWalk they are obviously not sluts, rather a group of women who seek attention or try to express themselves in an ostentatious way.

Probably a great part of them, as the one who holds the sign in the picture, are the ones who either cannot understand or accept that dressing is a part of our social communication and what they wear send a message that speaks silently. When you miscommunicate you will be mistreated. Not necessarily by rape, you might lose your job or anything unexpected can happen.

Too much body exposure and generally what you wear speaks before you have a chance to verbally explain that you are misunderstood. Actually, it's you who misunderstood the situation and failed to realize that the extent of your body exposure, by the clothes you are wearing, is not safe at that place. That makes clear for everybody around you that you are not reasonable, you lack intelligence, self respect, and dignity, therefore you will not get it from other people.

Going down the street half naked and yet, expect respect believing you should be safe just because the body exposure at the beaches is the same or greater , yet no one is raped, sends a clear message to people you are not very intelligent and can't sense the difference between a beach and a crowded train.

Thinking that dressing doesn't count because properly dressed women, even fully covered Muslims, are raped also shows the lack of understanding of the importance of dressing as Muslims clearly know how much the clothes their women wear counts, exactly that is one reason why they try to reduce problems by covering them. There are of course many other reasons for them.

In a word, dressing tells a lot about your character, intelligence, sense of reality and you will be treated accordingly.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

SpanishEyez37Aug. 14, 2011 - 05:16PM JST

For the folks who think that being dress in short skirts and what-not invites rape: what about elderly women who are raped? Do you think they were dressed ''slutty'' when they were assaulted?

Do you think there is one single common thread in all rapes?

Guys who rape elderly women generally are not the some guys who rape young women dressed provackatively! Is that not completely obvious? I mean smash you over the head with a brick obvious?

I swear, female ignorance of this topic is downright Darwinian! Think about it! The more a woman has a blindspot for understanding the causes of rape, the more likely she will be raped, and therefore, the more likely her offspring will be a male prone to rape or a female with a blind spot to the causes of rape.

Yeah, I know I will not win the popularity contest saying that, but my goal is not to win the popularity contest! My goal is to say stuff that will prevent rape!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The Munya Times: "When you miscommunicate you will be mistreated."

Dressing with a short skirt and/or a top that shows cleavage is not a 'miscommunication', only someone who sees it as justification for rape has misconstrued.... big time, if not just plain old mentality handicapped. Get with the times, friend.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Steve: "smithinjapan; Sorry, i thought you were trying to be funny with my spelling. A certain poster kept going on about it not long ago after i explained the reasons."

There's a way of sending PMs via the forums on here, but I don't know how (in fact, the forums are quite infuriating). If you do know how and wouldn't mind please send me a message as to why the typos. Regardless, I will cease to comment on it, but since you said you've explained it before and I missed it, do let me know if you can. If not, then oh well.

Still stand by everything I've said on this thread aside from the spelling comments. Hope you are not offended.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle, I agree with you.

These protesters are downright naive if they think that protesting in their skivvies will keep rapists at bay and win the hearts of police everywhere.

There's a difference between saying, "your clothes got you raped" and "it's probably safer not to wear those clothes," and yet the protesters interpret them as the same.

They are living in a land of make believe, whereas rapists are living just around the corner.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

smithinjapanAug. 15, 2011 - 12:30AM JST

Dressing with a short skirt and/or a top that shows cleavage is not a 'miscommunication', only someone who sees it as justification for rape has misconstrued....

Much oversimplified and much too hard and fast.

Men see it as a "possible" invitation to sex, not rape. I don't think we can hold it against men for seeing a provacatively dressed woman as being open to sex, possibly, since it does appear that she is provoking us intentionally.

So man gets turned on and approaches her. He is not thinking rape. He is thinking sex. They spend time together and he finally gets her alone. Things start moving. He makes a move. She may accept a little bit thinking that only necking is going to ensue. But he tries to stick his hand down her pants. She says no. But his amount of buttering up has exceeded his ability to stop. Then we have date rape, the most common form of rape. He did not set out to rape, but he did.

And I am not excusing him. I hope he goes to prison, even if his core problem seems to be just weaker self control than mine.. But how can you prove he raped her? She says he did and he says he didn't. This is the hell of date rape, and like I say, its the most common. And yes, I think cleavage can inspire it.

Like it or not, she did provoke him with cleavage. It excuses nothing, but it sure did not help the woman in that case. Perhaps if she had tried harder to exude a possibility of a friendship first, rather than be up front with a sexual message?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@smithinjapan

Exactly as you say, thanks for seconding what I said. If you go back and read my post less selfishly you will see that it is about matching a place with the affordable body exposure.

Also, a mini skirt or any other clothes in the street can be normal, or something that is asking for trouble not only accordingly to its length but accordingly who is approaching her.

When the skirt is too short that might indicate the girl has lower intelligence, when the skirt is not that badly short but the guy who is approaching her gets quickly and unreasonably exited, it refers to his intelligence, such as your reaction and understanding of my post refers to yours.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

There is another one. The way you dress says a lot about you.

Does a particular way of dressing say "rape me"? How about back when everyone wore the same weave cloth or before then when they all wore the same animal skin? Were they dressing provocatively then, was rape ok then, or are you just full of you know what? Do you feel the urge to rape someone because of what she is wearing? No? But you can understand why someone else might? STFU

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

In a word, dressing tells a lot about your character, intelligence, sense of reality and you will be treated accordingly.

You are talking about how you want other people to dress, or to be more specific how you want women to dress. Is the porn you look at complete with appropriately attired persons? You never look at pornographic images of women? Liar. Does a burkha give a different sense of intelligence, character, sense of reality and entitlement? Bottom line, anyone can dress how they want and you cannot use that as an excuse for getting raped.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

and try a mini skirt. you might feel sexy and get a little empathy at the same time. hopefully you won't get raped and deserve it

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Bottom line, anyone can dress how they want and you cannot use that as an excuse for getting raped.

Now, that was reach considering your performance on this board lately. Now please scroll up and read the very first pots carefully and note who wrote it and then try to get some rest to ease your mind. And sorry no more answer whatever anybody writes it was enough of degrading the quality of this board.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I would not say women concerned about rape prevention are their own worst enemies. Nor would I say their advocates are. Obviously rapists are the worst. But women and their advocates seem to be a close second!

Any woman who is a rape victim deserves plenty of therapy. But that therapy should never include a march or rants that work against rape prevention, no matter how much better they may feel afterwards for the ranting and marching half naked while calling themselves sluts. They are in fact, sabotaging rape prevention.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

The Munya Times: "When the skirt is too short that might indicate the girl has lower intelligence, when the skirt is not that badly short but the guy who is approaching her gets quickly and unreasonably exited, it refers to his intelligence, such as your reaction and understanding of my post refers to yours."

You are SO off when you claim my post seconds yours. A women with a skirt is short might indicate lower intelligence? I think you indicated lower intelligence with that statement alone! Good one!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle: "I would not say women concerned about rape prevention are their own worst enemies. Nor would I say their advocates are. Obviously rapists are the worst."

Aww... that's awfully comforting. Kinda like saying a murdered person is not as bad as the murderer.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Oracle: "I would not say women concerned about rape prevention are their own worst enemies."

Yup, those Middle-Eastern women in their burkas that cover everything but get raped.... they are their own worst enemies. Ah, but maybe you forgot about that and only think women who speak up and wear short skirts are the problem -- not the rapists. Women concerned about rape prevention?? Sheesh! May as well ask them to take of their apron and not do your bidding. You have hit a new low. Congrats.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Oracle: "And I could write some good advice. But I know this post will get derided so why should I bother?"

Why should you bother to pollute an A4 size piece of paper? No on knows, but you did despite claiming not to care.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle: "Men see it as a "possible" invitation to sex, not rape."

Really? So you think rape is okay?

"As with this march, the aim to seems to be some emotional satisfaction rather than rape prevention."

Really? That seems to me to be misdirected thought. Do you get angered by marches against rape? Why on earth would you think these women/men get satisfaction from the march as a precursor to sending their message, which is that rape is wrong -- is it that you simply cannot understand?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Oracle: "But that therapy should never include a march or rants that work against rape prevention, no matter how much better they may feel afterwards for the ranting and marching half naked while calling themselves sluts."

Well, i think you have sufficiently proven you are not ever worthy of a valid comment. Or wait..... maybe your right... maybe women who have been raped have no right to a voice!

Nice!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Munya: "Now, that was reach considering your performance on this board lately. Now please scroll up and read the very first pots carefully and note who wrote it and then try to get some rest to ease your mind. And sorry no more answer whatever anybody writes it was enough of degrading the quality of this board."

I honestly have a hard time understanding what language you are speaking. Is it English? Are rapists not bad?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oracle: "Men see it as a "possible" invitation to sex, not rape. I don't think we can hold it against men for seeing a provacatively dressed woman as being open to sex, possibly, since it does appear that she is provoking us intentionally."

So, what the difference, in your mind, to 'provocation' and 'rape'? If a woman is unintentionally provoking you is it okay to rape her? Can't be your fault, right? and by 'you' I mean everyman, not literally you -- in other words, I'm making gross generalizations as you are.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The key word is assault, and as long as people perceive trespass as an acceptable/optional behavior, then this will never be resolved. As long as the caveman mentality and morality persists we will always have wars and rape. The big issue for me is that the perpetrators feel no shame, either before or after committing offense. I believe they do not even know what offense is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Once again, possibly the most important issue facing civilisation, and you so-called men muck it up with your petty hormonal emotions. There, at the very core of our problems, is how we treat each other. The age of Chivalry was the epitome of this principle, so be it a bit passe now, the very attempt to answer this age-old social anomaly. And now we have completely swept it under the carpet as old fashion, but it's practicality has not faded just because we have become jaded. The little gestures of politeness like holding doors and asking permission speaks to the larger issue. Most laws mention the concept of "consent" for this reason, and not consent by coercion. The "fault" is with the one who breaks this most basic of all laws.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

SmithinJapan,

you're all for these protests because you say bringing awareness about rape can only be a good thing. i would disagree with you on four very basic points.

at best, they are preaching to the choir. i mean, ask a thousand people if they are in favor of rape, and guess what your answers will be.

their message will inevitably be misconstrued, as it has been already many times on this thred.

the essence of the march vilifies the police, antagonizing the very people who are supposed to help them.

the detachment from reality that the ideas behind the march present only make the protesters seem "irrational." what kind of people so vehemently opposed to the rape of women, would deny any preventative measure that works, whether it have a 30% effect or 5%?

now please excuse me while i leave my laptop in the from seat of my car with the windows rolled down. after all, i should have the right to do that, right?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Twenty-three-month-old Virginia Warder sat in her stroller playing with a hot-pink feather boa and eating peaches. A sign on the stroller read “My body is mine” and the toddler’s T-shirt was emblazoned with the words “My mommy is a slut.”

There is something seriously wrong with that woman. I agree that there is no good reason - even being slutty - for being raped, but why make your child up like one? That's more than a little sick.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@smithinjapan:

Oracle: "Men see it as a "possible" invitation to sex, not rape."

Really? So you think rape is okay?

You know as well as I do that Oracle is not saying that rape is okay. A "possible" invitation for sex is of course, not the same as rape.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@sourpuss, says it all. But you see, this is what you don't see. The history of the Slut Walk is that a Constable of a police department in Canada made a public comment that a rape victim in his jurisdiction was "asking for it" because she was drinking at a club and wearing "provocative" clothing. Here's my reply to your question, if I am prone to covet your laptop whilst it is sitting in an easily accessible venue then, by all means, there should be no expectation that I would snatch it without your permission. So, I can reasonably say that you have not been robbed or raped and that everyone in your blobbosphere are well mannered and moral patriots who don't offend policemen or detach themselves from "reality".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

now please excuse me while i leave my laptop in the from seat of my car with the windows rolled down. after all, i should have the right to do that, right?

Here's the thing: while it seems obvious to you, me, and almost everyone else, that wearing skimpy clothes invites sexual attention, and thus increases the chance of rape, as far as I can tell there are no statistics to back this up. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it does mean we need to rethink where we put the focus in these discusion. We assume that "reasonable people" know that nothing - not even skimpy clothing - justifies rape, so we gloss over that and jump on the risky behavior issue. The only problem is that there are a lot of "unreasonable" people out there, and we can't afford to stop emphasizing that rape is the fault of rapists, not their victims.

That said, there is such a thing as risky behavior. A woman should be able to wear whatever she wants, drink as much as she wants, flirt as much as she wants, have as much sex as she wants, etc.. "Morals" aside We all should have this right. But the truth is that such behaviors can make you more vulnerable to sexual assault. Victims of rapists are chosen primarily for vulnerabilty, rather than age, "attractiveness", etc... But that doesn't mean these can't be factors as well. We just don't know how much of factors they are. I think that the feminist movement rushes to tell victims that it's not their fault - and it certainly isn't from a moral perspective - in order to help shield them from addtional shame/guilt. (The "rape is all about power, not sex" line is part of this.) The problem is that this approach potentially discourages women from trying to avoid behaviors that may put them at risk. (Consider - if a rapist knows what a woman wears and how she behaves is likely to be used against her to shame her into not pressing charges or dissmissing her allegations when she does, doesn't that make her more vulnerable because of her actions?) But, we have to be careful in our criticism lest we reinforce all those who are trying to shame the victim and excuse the rapist. Despite what some posters may think, that is still a large block of society. It's a very, very fine line.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"Frankly, the women who say they should be able to dress as they want remind me of the NRA people who think guns should not have any restrictions" ARE YOU FOR REAL?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Frankly, the women who say they should be able to dress as they want remind me of the NRA people who think guns should not have any restrictions" - Oracle. And, again, this is the reason to hold these Walks. You, likely, advocate that the female should follow ten paces behind her superior too. That is a Fundamentalist standpoint and is fundamentally what is the problem. Human rights is only "human" when it applies to all humans and not just the 50% that forcibly impose their will on the others. You are "running the risk" of waking up without your man-ness some day.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Oh, and one more thing, since men don't go around doing their hair or wearing sleeveless basketball shirts or putting a sock in their pants, then that also excludes them from the "provocative" label. I can only say that if this is the way that "men" believe, then the collapse of the justice system is inevitable because there is no "justice" unless there is justice for everyone. Next Question: What about the hotel maid in New York? does she deserve to be ignored because she is discredited (or poor, or African, or colluding with inmates)... I say, Power To The Sluts, where ever they are.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

WolfpackAug. 15, 2011 - 10:18AM JST

You know as well as I do that Oracle is not saying that rape is okay

Thank you Wolfpack. SmithinJapan seems to be working hard to make himself the third worst enemy. He has thrown logic out the window and has traded it for pure rage.

TriumvereAug. 15, 2011 - 10:22AM JST sourpussAug. 15, 2011 - 09:31AM JST

Perhapsthose posts will help you calm down and see reason SmithinJapan? They just said in a different way so much of what I already did.

But, we have to be careful in our criticism lest we reinforce all those who are trying to shame the victim and excuse the rapist.

For most people this is simply an impossible task. People tend to assume so darned fast, then they get angry. And the simple-minded slogans really don't help the situation. The slogan "Don't blame the victim" has pre-empted almost anything you could say about rape prevention.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

smithinjapanAug. 15, 2011 - 06:03AM JST

Yup, those Middle-Eastern women in their burkas that cover everything but get raped.... they are their own worst enemies

Where did I say there was any guarantee that a certain type of clothing would prevent rape 100 percent?

Read this post again: OracleAug. 15, 2011 - 12:00AM JST

If you are angry or frustated, how about you go punch a wall. Come back when have calmed down. Then maybe the following will make sense to you:

If you have some statistics proving that burkha clad women are raped at the same rate or more than women wearing clothes that show lots of skin, such as miniskirts and blouses with V neck-lines, I would be happy to have a look. Even if women in burkhas are raped just 10 percent less, sorry, but the burkha wins and it tells us something. Clothes are no guarantee of anything, but clothes do help. Why should you be so against that? Indeed, it seems to be you who thinks that rape is okay, because you are promoting it by promoting carelessness.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

OrangeW3dgeAug. 15, 2011 - 11:33AM JST

Oh, and one more thing, since men don't go around doing their hair or wearing sleeveless basketball shirts or putting a sock in their pants, then that also excludes them from the "provocative" label.

Are you not aware that men and women have different sexual responses?

Maybe a study in animal behavior will help? No one trained them, but when male monkeys see the enflamed red buttocks of female monkeys in heat, they get aroused. It does not work in reverse. The human male monkey is still affected visually to female traits in ways that the human female monkey are not. Is this not completely obvious?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"My short skirt is not an invitation to rape me!"-- this is a good message

"Women can and should wear short skirts wherever, whenever because it won't change anything." -- this is a bad message.

Can you see the difference?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Are you not aware that men and women have different sexual responses? Maybe a study in animal behavior will help?" ----- Perhaps, if I read this correctly, that you are proposing that animal behaviour is what we should allow as the standard for civilised legal prescription. At which time, I shall inform you that The Slut Walk is a demonstration against just what you you keep saying. Even though there are "animal" mechanisms at work in the reproductive cycle of humans does not excuse assault on one person by another. Try to understand that this has been brought about by an official of the Police that made a statement very similar to yours, and they didn't agree with it. Now, for the record once again, I don't agree with it either. As for having education in the fields of biology and a major in psychology in college (some 40 years ago, but I think much of it still applies), there may be many things that I don't understand, but human nature (unfortunately sometimes) is not one of them. The issue here is not titillation or voyeurism, but the legality of someone raising a hand to another. If I stood before you and taunted you to kill me and you did, could you justify that action by saying "he provoked me?"

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

OrangeW3dgeAug. 15, 2011 - 04:54PM JST

Perhaps, if I read this correctly,

No. You didn't.

If I stood before you and taunted you to kill me and you did, could you justify that action by saying "he provoked me?"

No. The action of killing your for that is unjustifiable. And I would be rightly jailed.

However, that does not change the fact that you would still be alive if you had not done that.

Do you go around provoking people to kill you? Why not?

You know, it is quite possible for two people to be wrong. It does not have to be only one, not even if that one is more wrong. Still, the other can be wrong too, even if less wrong.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

orangew3dge, you see, you don't even see the basic facts of the origins of the slutwalk.

the original statemenet was this:

women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized,

not, as you misquoted, this:

a rape victim in his jurisdiction was "asking for it" because she was drinking at a club and wearing "provocative" clothing.

furthermore:

So, I can reasonably say that you have not been robbed or raped and that everyone in your blobbosphere are well mannered and moral patriots who don't offend policemen or detach themselves from "reality".

ahh, so you really do not understand. like the protesters, you would rather be right than safe.

and even further:

As for having education in the fields of biology and a major in psychology in college (some 40 years ago, but I think much of it still applies)

No, it does not.

In those days both biology and psychology were ruled by the powers of P.C. In other words, what you learned was the way people thought psychology and biology SHOULD be, and not how they really are, which very much reflects the way the slutwalk is based on how things should be, instead of dealing with things as they really are. This is no surprise after all, because the radical feminists that created the slutwalk formed their ideals during the same era as when you studied.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

here's a quote from slutwalkseattle, that appears on all slutwalk related sites in their FAQ sections:

A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim, compared with murder cases in which case 22% involved provocative behavior.

notice the word "only" before 4.4% and then comparison with murder cases. do you think that word was in the original study's findings? nope. apparently these protesters believe that eliminating 1 in 20 rapes is not important, or in any case it's not as important as the freedom to dress how one wants. fashion truly is king. this is the kind of denial of reality i'm talking about. it's sad really, and highly ironic, that politics has come out ahead of women's safety for these people.

another giveaway to the negative role politics plays in this issue is the incredible dearth of studies done on the topic. nobody, not even serious academics want to risk their careers on the hot potato issue. permanent protests outside their door until they are forced to resign... shouted down in their own lectures, labeled with various epithets etc.

the gov't, on the other hand, can afford to do it because they are a faceless entity, already hated anyway, and it is a public health and safety issue after all. it would be criminal for them not to do a study.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

sourpuss: "you're all for these protests because you say bringing awareness about rape can only be a good thing. i would disagree with you on four very basic points. 1- at best, they are preaching to the choir. i mean, ask a thousand people if they are in favor of rape, and guess what your answers will be."

I KNOW! Heaven forbid that people who have been raped try to educate others or question why clothes are not the issue! People in junior high probably don't want to get pregnant, either, and probably know you stick A in B, but we should still teach them safe sex and it doesn't hurt to hear a motivational speaker's experience.

"2-their message will inevitably be misconstrued, as it has been already many times on this thred."

So will that of ANY message... it is up to the person reading to construe what he or she sees. Doesn't mean you should stick your head in the sand.

"3-the essence of the march vilifies the police, antagonizing the very people who are supposed to help them."

Really? How does it do that? The fact of the matter is that many police have failed to do their duty based on lack of ability or unwillingness to fill out paperwork or what have you and instead opt for the easy out; blame the victim. Heaven forbid we upset them by bringing up that fact. Heck, let's all just forget about countries like Myanmar or what have you while we're at it -- bringing up the negative aspects of the government and law there might hurt their feelings a bit.

"4-the detachment from reality that the ideas behind the march present only make the protesters seem "irrational." what kind of people so vehemently opposed to the rape of women, would deny any preventative measure that works, whether it have a 30% effect or 5%?"

It's based on experience for at least some of the protesters -- women who have been victimized and then doubly so by police on the claims that the way they dress was a cause for what they suffered. How is their voicing that 'irrational'? If you choose to see it as such, that's your choice and your choice alone.

"...notice the word "only" before 4.4%..."

Actually, what I noticed more than that was the word 'reported', and even then I'm guessing that means put in the records, not just taken to police who try and work things out without filing reports.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

For the folks who think that being dress in short skirts and what-not invites rape: what about elderly women who are raped? Do you think they were dressed ''slutty'' when they were assaulted?

All this suggests is that more than one factor may not be involved, not necessarily excluding dress.

I tend to think dress is not relevant, as I've seen evidence posted elsewhere of this, but your argument is weak.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Smith,

the point is that the people who this walk is aimed at already KNOW that rape is bad. Even people who disagree with their way of saying it. uh, are you serious? the message here is supposed to be ironic...far above the heads of many. the police are human and get defensive just like normal people. and again, see number 2. wow, your selectivity on this issue really is astounding. how can you ignore feminists saying ONLY 4.4% of rapes are related to the behavior of the victim? whether 4.4% or 2 percent, the possibility of preventing any rapes is significant. but if you want to look at the word "reported" maybe the number of those attacked for their behavior is higher, but they're ashamed to report it.

your responses indicate that you too are less concerned about the actual safety of women. you're more concerned about expressing sympathy for victims, and the so-called "empowerment" of them, than getting to the root of the matter and implementing realistic preventative policies.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

people have to control themsleves

both sides need to look at the big picture

the would be victim needs better judgement and the perp needs help too No means No

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I'm waiting for the day when the local ladies will be able to hold one in Tehran or Riyadh.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Thank you Wolfpack. SmithinJapan seems to be working hard to make himself the third worst enemy. He has thrown logic out the window and has traded it for pure rage.

I tried to warn you Oracle about SmithinJapan on another thread. Basically all SmithinJapan does in a debate is purposely misrepresent people's points. Just ignore his posts if you can.

Sourpuss, don't waste your time on SmithinJapan. All he is going to do is just misrepresent your points, it is just best not to reply to him.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@sourpuss:

In other words, what you learned was the way people thought psychology and biology SHOULD be, and not how they really are, which very much reflects the way the slutwalk is based on how things should be, instead of dealing with things as they really are.

This is an excellent point about what the organizers of the "Slut Walk" don't get. Yes, in a perfect world, there would be no crime and women dressed like "sluts" wouldn't be a target for rape. However, given that this is not how the real world works, you would think that these seemingly educated women would use some common sense and advocate doing things that would likely lessen their chance of being a victim of this crime. This isn't to blame the victims of rape but to make the case that woman are much less likely to be raped if they try to avoid putting themselves in a situation where they could be attacked.

It is regrettable that the term "Slut" is used to promote this social awareness event. Slut is slang for whore, prostitute, etc. and such people are by definition looking for sexual contact of some sort or other. SlutWalk is a poor choice of words to say the least.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

whiskeysourAug. 16, 2011 - 09:15AM JST

No means No

Another slogan that is not quite true. Of course a man should always be careful when the word no is uttered and try to figure out if she actually means it. And if she does mean it, a woman should not just say no, but say "No means no". Some women seem to not be resisting the man, but resisting their own sense of shame in giving in to pleasure. However, if you cannot understand what I just wrote, then "No means no" is probably something you should just believe.

One should be especially careful the first time and stop and actually ask if "No means no". You probably will not get a straight answer, but you should be able to tell by body language and expressions. This is just simple reality, and again, people often talk about the way the world should be rather than the way it really is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

smithinjapanAug. 16, 2011 - 12:55AM JST

It's based on experience for at least some of the protesters

Let me see if I have your position straight: They were apparently dressed provacatively, but they know that that was not a contributing factor to their own rape. Right?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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