South Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly vote to debate Confederate flag

What's to debate? Get rid of it !

So Roof wanted to start a civil war but instead the south responds by getting rid of the American Swastika. Years too late but a good outcome from a horrible act of white racist terrorism. Maybe finally the south embrace their racial diversity now instead of trying to repress it. The confederate flag is just a symbol but a powerful one that when it is gone from government will be a blessing to the people of the south. Doubt that Skynard will drop it however, they tried once and were blasted by their in many cases racist fans.

The confederate flag is the latest casualty of liberal theology that is becoming the US state religion. Liberals don't agree, then ban it. If our founding fathers in the 13 colonies could have seen the future, they never would have joined the USA. i hope another Civil War ensues.

I'd like to remind readers that the article concerns "South Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly vote to debate Confederate flag". Not remove or abolish. It's just the start of a potentially long and outdrawn situation that may or may not lead to the flag being removed. Politics and Law are all about having as many stages as possible between something being voted on, then debated, then considered, then passed...the first stage. Just to start on the second and then third.

I hope that the debates are rational and sound but I'm not too hopeful. Politicians are concerned about their voter base, not morality or what's actually the ethical thing to do.

And it only took the deaths of nine black people. Oh, and 200+ years of slavery.

The confederate flag is the latest casualty of liberal theology that is becoming the US state religion. Liberals don't agree, then ban it.

What a ridiculous comment. It has nothing to do with liberalism, it has to do with the fact that the flag was used in support of slavery. Flying such a flag spits in the face of black people.

i hope another Civil War ensues

I'm not sure the last one ever ended

@Strangerland

That's your personal opinion, not a fact. Many people would disagree with you. The flag didn't represent the support of slavery. It's true the south wanted to keep slavery, but the flag represents something greater. It represents traditional US southern culture and way of life before it was tarnished.

It's telling that the U.S. has become a country where it's okay to have advertisements on NYC buses encouraging the killing of Jews worldwide, but it's not okay to fly a confederate flag. I know that a pro-Israel group placed the bus advertisements but even so, it's still a form of hate being publicly displayed nonetheless.

That's your personal opinion, not a fact.

No, it's a fact.

Many people would disagree with you.

Only racists.

The flag didn't represent the support of slavery. It's true the south wanted to keep slavery, but the flag represents something greater. It represents traditional US southern culture and way of life before it was tarnished.

So you're ok with the swastika as a symbol of traditional german culture, and a way of life before it was tarnished?

@Strangerland

It is your personal opinion and NOT a fact. Just because you say it is, that doesn't make it true. No matter how many times you repeat it.

Unlike the confederate flag, my understanding is the Swastika was not a symbol of traditional German culture but rather that of the Third Reich.

@american_bengoshi

Would you expect black and coloured South Africans to be happy to see the old South African flag (hey, it represents old, traditional South African culture and way of life before it was tarnished) flying over parliament buildings in that country?

It represents traditional US southern culture and way of life before it was tarnished.

It represents culture and heritage of racism and slavery, nothing more.

Let's just look at the history of South Carolina. From 1865-1938, the Stars and Bars was not flown anywhere on public grounds and it was not used as a symbol of remembrance at any Confederate veterans events. Only in 1938, after Southern politicians banded together to defeat an anti-lynching (wtf?) bill did they begin to fly the flag in the State House. They put it up in the Senate building right after the Supreme Court struck down Brown v. Board of Education. Finally, they moved it up to it's prominent position on top of the building in 1962 in response to Kennedy's calls to end poll taxes and literacy tests for voting and right after the Supreme Court struck down segregation in public transportation.

The adoption of the Stars and Bars in the South was nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to the North's anti-racism policies. It has nothing to do with representing grits or sweet tea or hospitality or any of that.

Educate yourself.

It is your personal opinion and NOT a fact. Just because you say it is, that doesn't make it true. No matter how many times you repeat it.

It is a fact.

And whether you like it or not, the flag is associated with slavery. That association cannot be broken, nor denied. It's not like people are going to suddenly say "oh, it's a symbol of when things were different? Let's forget that it has any association with slavery then, that's not important". It's like the term 'faggot'. It used to mean a bundle of wood. But if someone says 'go get the faggot off the driveway', there will be misunderstandings. Same as with the flag. Even is someone really truly doesn't associate it in their own mind with slavery, it has that association with so many other people, that trying to deny it is useless. So on that note, it's insensitive to try, as the association is real, and does exist. Why would you want to fly a symbol that means oppression, death, and slavery, to so many of the people who have to look at it? If it was a few whiny people it would be one thing, but it's an entire race of people that live there.

it only took the deaths of nine black people. Oh, and 200+ years of slavery.

Non-Americans schooled in a socialist public education system are not expected to know this, but the War Between the States was fought over the Morrill tariff and states rights; also the constitutional right to secede from the Union which the South lawfully did. Ending slavery was never the issue for the conflict.

Winners of wars get to write the history books and they are often filled with their propaganda, far removed from the facts and truth. They often lie to paint themselves as the saviors as they demonize and trash their enemies. The yankees did just that.

@lucabrasi

That's a stupid comparison honestly, but what matters is what the flag actually stood for historically. It didn't symbolize slavery or racism.

@Upgrayeed

Your wrong as well. The flag had nothing to do with racism.

So you would deny that it represents slavery to black people?

american_bengoshi

A "stupid" comparison? In what way exactly? Surely you can argue your case better than that....

The South African flag didn't "represent" apartheid. But it sure is associated with it in most folks' minds....

@american_bengoshi

It is your personal opinion and NOT a fact.

Seeing as you are an American bengoshi, I'm a bit surprised to see you confuse fact and opinion. If I call a few African Americans to testify in court that they associate the flag with slavery, then it becomes a fact that some people associate it with slavery. Of course, whether making that association is historically justified or not (which is what you seem to be arguing) is a matter of opinion.

Shame this sort of debate (change) required the loss of nine lives.

american_bengoshi: The confederate flag is the latest casualty of liberal theology that is becoming the US state religion. Liberals don't agree, then ban it.

Please continue to define the issue as a liberal/conservative one. And please tell the world that conservatives support the flag and liberals do not. It helps to continue to shrink the conservative base.

i hope another Civil War ensues.

Well then get ready to raise the Confederate flag once again. The white flag of surrender.

It's not rocket science. Pick a new symbol that shows Southern pride that doesn't also include racism. We will drag you into the present whether you like it or not.

I went to high school in the South, but in a neighborhood with a lot of engineers and professional people who came to that city from other parts of the country. In Sociology class, our teacher Mr. Brooks actually tried to justify slavery by saying it "wasn't so bad," because the owners took "good care of their property" and were "kind to the slaves." At the risk of lower grades, the northern kids raised lively objections, although it fell short of jeers and boos. The next year our class integrated -- the first for that high school -- and everybody got along better than expected. There were a few KKK wannabes who had rebel flag (as they called it) decals on their cars, etc. And I remember bumper stickers that claimed "The South Will Rise Again." I also remembered an ice cream vendor at a stock car racetrack with a sign that read "Colored served at side window." I saw enough of that, and I'm really happy those days are gone. But even after all these years, all that Civil Rights legislation and a Black president, the diehards persist, as if they have no better purpose in life. That's tragic too, in a sense.

It's still a flag, how people determine it's meaning is up to them but taking offense to it in my opinion is just arrogant misguided PC.

Instead of focusing on the flag that only has historical value behind it (it is a civil war relic for that state), focus on the white supremacist organizations that intend to commit violent acts and preventing them from doing more harm. Flags don't kill people, but people do.

Personally, I've never seen a problem since its still just a flag. I grew up watching "The Dukes of Hazzard" and was never offended by that beautiful dodge charger... but thanks to the overly sensitive PC groups the General Lee is getting messed up.

Grow up and fix the real problem not trying to put a quick slap Band-Aid that does nothing.

So the fact that to the overwhelming majority of black people, it's a symbol of slavery, oppression, and murder, should be discounted?

Some right wing politicians are hoping their the symbolic act to debate and possibly remove a symbol of slavery and subsequent repression will help them pull in votes as election season is around the corner. As well, changing a flag will not address the deeper structural social justice issues, so it's an easy southern hospitality gesture.

I grew up watching "The Dukes of Hazzard"

My abiding memory as a kid was that there were no black characters. Dylann Roof's utopia?

Well, first of all we're talking about the Confederate flag, a battle flag under which the army of General Lee fought to preserve slavery. It was never a national flag of the CSA. The Confederate flag only became "popular" again after the war when

The flag didn't represent the support of slavery. It's true the south wanted to keep slavery, but the flag represents something greater.

Spare us the Lost Cause, revisionist clap trap. The war was very much about preserving that vile institution that was slavery. And that flag, from Dixiecrats to KKK, has been adopted by racists, supremacists, white power fanatics. It's not accident that Roof posed with one.

What a ridiculous comment. It has nothing to do with liberalism,

Indeed, scream "PC liberalism" when one doesn't have an intelligent argument left.

Ending slavery was never the issue for the conflict.

One could argue that it wasn't the only issue for the North. But, the more relevant point, is that preserving the institution was most certainly the issue for the South.

i hope another Civil War ensues.

I guess none of your forebears fought in or lived through the Civil War, otherwise you'd know better. Many of mine did and it wasn't party.

Non-Americans schooled in a socialist public education system are not expected to know this, but the War Between the States was fought over the Morrill tariff and states rights; also the constitutional right to secede from the Union which the South lawfully did. Ending slavery was never the issue for the conflict.

LOL

Here is a partial list of Declaration Causes of Seceding States.

Just do a ctrl-f and look for any variation of tax or tariff. The one single mention is in reference of slavery.

Now check out direct references to slavery and come back and try to tell us the civil war wasn't directly about slavery. It was the ONLY issue. All other issues about tariffs and states rights were in support of the rights of the Southern States to maintain slavery. They saw the election of the Republicans as a direct threat on their way of life (based on slavery and racism) and tried to leave the union because of it.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

The real reason that the South Carolina politicians are debating the elimination of the confederate flag is because it's going to be election time soon and the black voters will be watching what the white politicians are doing very closely before they vote. The South is the South and it will rise again and actually already has based on the international business that puts their headquarters and manufacturing plants in the South Eastern United States. Slavery is long gone and most white Southerners are not racist but the rest of the USA and world think that every Southerner wants to own slaves and grow cotton. What a bunch of BS.

Wow... they voted to DEBATE it! Sounds like they got advice from Japanese politicians on this one and will next be forming a panel to think about thinking about it. I know it's a hard sell for those who want to keep it up, but the flag is racist, bottom line. The swastika is also a historical symbol in terms of the impact it had through that it represented, but there's no reason why an old Nazi flag should fly anywhere. The time for honoring racists is done. Take it down, and move on.

HonestDictator: but thanks to the overly sensitive PC groups

Awesome. Keep up the good work. You're Republican, right?

Hawkeye: Slavery is long gone and most white Southerners are not racist but the rest of the USA and world think that every Southerner wants to own slaves and grow cotton.

We don't think all Southerners are racist. I'm from the South. But when you have things like a KKK bust on government land then maybe you're creating your own crappy imagine. And as gcbel pointed out, if it's not a symbol associated with racism then why do so many white supremacist groups use it?

Non-Americans schooled in a socialist public education system are not expected to know this, but the War Between the States was fought over the Morrill tariff and states rights; also the constitutional right to secede from the Union which the South lawfully did. Ending slavery was never the issue for the conflict.

This lie is as old as the Klan. The Confederate States were very clear on why the seceded: to preserve the institution of slavery. And you don't need any "Yankee propaganda," just read the declaration of secession; the Confederates were more than happy to say so in their own words. I see no reason to disbelieve them, especially given that Slaves - human beings kept in bondage - in aggregate accounted for most of the net worth of the South (billions upon billions of dollars worth in today's money, eclipsing any other type of property holdings at the time).

The "Confederate Flag" we are currently debating is actually a Confederate army battle flag. It's literally the flag of traitors fighting against the the Union, and has absolutely no business flying on government property.

You know, I love the "Dukes of Hazzard"; it was my favorite show when I was a little kid. Had my own little "General Lee" toy car and everything. But you also know, you have to grow up some time. Then again, maybe you don't know. The following:

i hope another Civil War ensues.

isn't exactly an adult sentiment.

i hope another Civil War ensues

That is exactly what the white terrorists Roof wanted when he murdered nine black church goers, and a poster on the board repeats that same message? How sad that is. It just proves how deep racism is today in many people. Really it is a cry for help.

If you want to be one nation, then remove the symbols from public areas that keep you divided.

The time for honoring racists is done. Take it down, and move on.

So, in proggie-o-vision, the thousands of freed black slaves who fought for the Confederacy during the War Between the States are "racists"?

Murders committed by a loner racist crackpot says nothing about the current state of race relations in the US. It certainly doesn't prove there is enduring racism towards blacks by the majority white population. Black American interest groups like the NAACP are desperate trying to keep that idea alive so they can remain relevant and so blacks can continue to receive special treatment for getting into US colleges and hiring for jobs.

Strangerland: So the fact that to the overwhelming majority of black people, it's a symbol of slavery, oppression, and murder, should be discounted?

What's odd to me is the disconnect. Many black people live in the South and are a part of the history, but apparently their views on the flag aren't relevant. It's a flag exclusively for white people, and they walk around not understanding why blacks wouldn't want to see it flying on a government building.

What's odd to me is the disconnect. Many black people live in the South and are a part of the history, but apparently their views on the flag aren't relevant. It's a flag exclusively for white people, and they walk around not understanding why blacks wouldn't want to see it flying on a government building.

Yeah I asked three different times in this thread something along the lines of whether the feelings of black people should be discounted, and not one person who is defending the flag has addresses those questions.

proggie-o-vision,

"Proggie-o-vision" a sure sign of an intelligent comment to follow.

the thousands of freed black slaves who fought for the Confederacy during the War Between the States are "racists"?

And we're not disappointed...

Except thousands of freed black slaves didn't fight for the Confederacy during the Civil War! There's only anecdotal that evidence that a minuscule amount including slaves, who by definition didn't have a choice, ever even held a gun. Most were labourers or other menial, non-combat related jobs.

And even if it were the case, which it most certainly isn't, the question is irrelevant to the point.

So the fact that to the overwhelming majority of black people, it's a symbol of slavery, oppression, and murder, should be discounted?

Uh, no. I'm black an I just see it as a flag. Hello, don't tell us what we do or don't see as a symbol of slavery. Check out the previous flags that SC flew during and after the civil war before its current flag. if you're not in a place to comprehend what is seen as a symbol of slavery and what is not then don't assume what others believe.

As I said, its easy to focus on stupid "easy to win" battles that don't do crap in the long run compared to real battles that make all the difference. People in kkk robes and rallies are a symbol of slavery, iron chains are a symbol of slavery. Outright oppression by Caucasians is a symbol of slavery. Being called "boy" or the n-word by a Caucasian is a symbol of slavery. A flag located in one single state? That's pointless, and the PC crowd needs to get its priorities straight.

South Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly vote to debate Confederate flag

Sorry folks. The vote/debate about this flag is a day late and dollar short. . . . But hey, it's finally on the table. I just hope they will never change the 50 stars, 13 (red&white) stripes (original 13 colonies) and the blue background (representing sea to shining sea) behind those 50 stars (each representing a state).

Uh, no. I'm black

I know [that you say you are]. I wasn't asking about you, I was asking about the overwhelming majority of black people.

don't tell us what we do or don't see as a symbol of slavery.

I don't need to. It's not like it's a secret. You don't think a symbol appropriated by white supremacist groups, that was used as a flag for the side that supported slavery, is seen as a symbol of oppression to black people? Then why are the black people I know all commenting on how it needs to go? Seriously, you must be the only black person you know if you think that it's not seen as a symbol of oppression.

So to ask the question again, since you didn't answer it, should the fact that it's seen as a symbol of slavery, murder, and oppression, by the overwhelming majority of black people be discounted?

So, in proggie-o-vision, the thousands of freed black slaves who fought for the Confederacy during the War Between the States are "racists"?

In "proggie-o-vision" as you put it, these thousands don't actually exist. There nothing but pro-Confederate propaganda along with all those happy, loyal slaves dedicated to their masters which Southerners love to dream about. You know, I often disagree with the Progressives myself, but occasionally they get a few things right...

the War Between the States was fought over the Morrill tariff and states rights; also the constitutional right to secede from the Union which the South lawfully did. Ending slavery was never the issue for the conflict.

I agree. And I just can't imagine the north going to war to free the southern slaves, it was clearly to allow them to continue to exploit the southern states.

A number of states have recently been considering to secede; perhaps that is the reason why some are trying to reinforce the idea that it was all about slavery, rather than the south having more legit reasons to secede.

Finally, they moved it up to it's prominent position on top of the building in 1962 in response to Kennedy's calls to end poll taxes and literacy tests for voting and right after the Supreme Court struck down segregation in public transportation.

Oh, I would say it has much more to do with it being around the Centennial of the war....

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to get rid of the flag because of one lone nutter.

I just love how others love to tell us how black society is supposed to feel about things instead of just asking how we feel about things. For well over 100 years... I do have quite a few relatives in NC. They don't give a damned. I'm sure some do, but as I said, focus on what's important. The flag ain't it.

Sport teams in USA are reevaluating their team names, and mascots. In USA, I have been living in Nevada. Harry Reid said change UNLV name of Rebel beside mascots. Other lawmakers have different opinions. Residents are staying away of their discussions. Donaters of UNLV passed away some years ago and so no one can asks his opinion.

the flag was used in support of slavery. Flying such a flag spits in the face of black people

It goes on longer than slavery.

The flag was used as a symbol against the Civil Right's movement and for white supremacy. Slavery ended, and was replaced with Jim Crow. It goes longer than slavery.

And, this is important:

The Confederate flag should not come down because it is offensive to African Americans. The Confederate flag should come down because it is embarrassing to all Americans.

The Confederate flag should not come down because it is offensive to African Americans. The Confederate flag should come down because it is embarrassing to all Americans.

Or It could be a constant reminder of the kind of people who still exist in this day and age. I'd rather it remain as a reminder than for it to be gone. Besides, banning it would just encourage those supremacist idiots to wave it all the more. They'd love to have it as their ultimate symbol for "rebellion" and olde civil war "glory" and "uprising". The flag is just a flag.

Those that take offense to some cloth with designs on it instead of the bad people that wave it is just ridiculous. I've seen this flag and cloth being sold in my state (CO) with the exact same design, and many of us don't care.

On one hand there are the neo-nazis, and on the other the KKK. Both of which have their own symbols that do not detail this particular design.

As I said, they're trying redirect focus to the flag by itself instead of the very real threat of the white supremacist groups acting violently, and oppressing others from positions of power. I've been on the receiving end of it myself as well as many of my relatives plus we've had some fairly recent issues in my state with them.

And still no one has answered the question of whether the feelings of the overwhelming majority of black people should be discounted.

The Confederate flag should not come down because it is offensive to African Americans. The Confederate flag should come down because it is embarrassing to all Americans.

Well, for both reasons. But your second point is good.

But it's not about banning the Confederate flag. It's about removing the flag from statehouse grounds where it's continued presence as a hallowed symbol implies government approval of a battle standard that links back to a time when the government of the state and most of it's white citizens were fully dedicated to the proposition that all men are not created equal. Divisive symbol? I think so and so, polls show, do the majority of African Americans.

The flag is just a flag.

Agreed, but nonetheless, there's power in symbols and especially in flags that shouldn't be underestimated. You only have to think about the passions that the stars and stripes evokes in most Americans. And it's the issue of that symbol on state grounds and the attendant issue of implicit, or even explicit, state approval.

Only people who don't live in the South think that the confederate flag represents slavery. This is garbage and by the same token, many older Americans who fought in WWII like my father and uncle see the white flag with the big red dot as a bad memory and the flag used by their enemy who wounded them and killed their fellow soldiers, sailors and airmen. Japan should change her flag. I'm sure around 1776 people in the newly formed United States of America many people wanted British flags not just taken down but burned too. All countries who oppressed other countries and people's should have to rebrand themselves and change their flag. I'm sure that there are many people all over the world that see the USA flag as a reminder of it's oppression and war like mentality and would love to have it changed too. Since all the big box stores and online retailers are dropping the confederate flag like a hot potato, I am going to but up all those flags and sell them on eBay to millions of southerners who will want to put them up on the walls inside their double-wide trailers next to their velvet painting of Elvis and Daisy, General Lee and the Dukes of Hazzard.

Only people who don't live in the South think that the confederate flag represents slavery.

LOL Because no one in the South thinks the Confederate flag represents slavery? you mean no white peoplein the South, right? Even then you'd be wrong.

Again, no one's talking about banning the flag, just taking it off state grounds.

I am going to but up all those flags and sell them on eBay to millions of southerners who will want to put them up on the walls inside their double-wide trailers next to their velvet painting of Elvis and Daisy, General Lee and the Dukes of Hazzard.

Brilliant plan! As far as I know eBay hasn't banned the sale of confederate flag merchandise, nope, no don't think so. Snap 'em up!

You know not all southerners live in trailers, right?

If you want to be one nation, then remove the symbols from public areas that keep you divided.

America tried but he was re-elected 52% to 48%. Progress can be slow but luckily his time will come to an end in 18 months.

Sorry, I couldn't help it....

America is divided and it will remain so but for reasons other than racial animosity. Many white southerners do not see the flag as being about slavery. But unfortunately for them everyone else does. Even southern supporters of the Confederate flag cannot deny it was once used in defense of the institution of slavery. It is just a fact. The Democrat party and the KKK continued to use the flag as a symbol of racial solidarity and as a source of political power long after the war, through reconstruction, and Jim Crowe all the way up until the Civil Rights era. By that time, the flag was entrenched in the South.

Just about all if not all of the Confederate flags on state property in the South were put there by the Democrat party. Just as the Republican party ended slavery and were key to the end of Jim Crowe, they will also be taking down the Confederate flag as well. A pretty awesome legacy if you ask me.

Sorry, I couldn't help it....

Heh, yeah we noticed that in post after post after post. You really can't.

Just as the Republican party ended slavery and were key to the end of Jim Crowe, they will also be taking down the Confederate flag as well. A pretty awesome legacy if you ask me.

To borrow from Ronald Reagan, there you go again. I know you're familiar with the Southern strategy, I explained it to you earlier. You know half the truth is also half a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

A bit more of a mixed picture and legacy than you keep trying to paint.

"The Confederate battle flag was placed atop the Statehouse dome in 1961 for the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War, and lawmakers decided in 1962 to keep it there in response to the civil rights movement." - article

The whole matter has roots in the celebrated racism South Carolinians have suffered through.

A symbol of protest against civil rights has no place atop her capitol. This symbol, widely adorned, is as clearly associated with a statement of racism as the hooded garments of the KKK. It certainly has no place in a land that promises freedom and justice for all.