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Study: Poverty fueling Muslim tension with West

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I seem to remember that the attackers at the airport in England (I think Scotland), and on the subway attacks seemed to come from middle class families and were not the poor ones.

The study found that 77% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of British identity, compared to 50% of the country’s non-Muslims.

And I seem to recall that this was one of the problems in Britian, the fact that these persons who conducted the attacks did not feel that they could relate to Britain, even though their parents who actually had immigrated from Pakistan felt that they related more to Britain. One of the reasons why many of the younger generation were flocking to more radical mosques. Also, if that many feel a strong sense of British identity, why is there such a push to enact sharia law in some circles.

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Scotland is not in England.

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30,000 out to 1.9billion hardly constitutes a study.

No, its about religion. Watch, ban religion and you'll see more people coming together. Religion is a failed product of man. Lest no to be forgotten, that many/most Muslims are very conservative, much more than those of the bible belt down south. If many more libs ever open their eyes, they'd learn that much the muslims have against the west are those lib beliefs. List it. Homosexuality - a big no no. Abortion - a big no no Woman's rights - a big no no Gun/war to defend god - a big yes. tolerance - a big no no.

No, it is about religious differences.

Notice how the non-religious can tolerate others of religion but not the other way around.

This study is a sad case.

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Funny, I thought religion was fuelling it. Namely the Koran.

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I agree with the results. I take China as an example. It´s a different situation, but nonetheless we saw last decade how China is becoming more and more open to changes - that actually are happening there. One easily can see this is the result of a better daily life: more comfort, information, culture, international exchange, and a sense of more freedom than, say, the 1970´s and 1980´s generations. Of course, the government still is way too beligerant, but again, not so as last decades. The richer China gets, the more ¨peaceful¨ it will be. This could work for muslim countries too. Western nations should realize that they are there to stay, it´s close to impossible to change milenar cultures because we feel like doing so. We have to adapt to them, to reach solid peace agreements, and let the money flow both sides. I think that´s what Mr. Obama has in his mind - it would be a huge step towards peace and prosperity in comparison to the backward steps we took so far with failed wars.

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It’s not about faith, it’s not about ethnicity.

Total rubbish. Non-Muslim Indians, Pakistanis and Arabs have no trouble at all integrating into Western society. Just a lame attempt by Islamists to play the race card.

If UK Muslims follow their faith to the letter, which is what the Saudi-funded Imams insist on, integrating into the west becomes impossible. This is because to them the only acceptable law is Sharia, which deems non-Muslims inferior, and accepts no legislation accept the word of Mohammed. Deal with the Imam problem and there might be some hope.

I also notice that other low paid communities aren't resorting to terrorism. That's probably because they don't subscribe to an ideology which advocates violence and which regards outsiders as 'the vilest of creatures' [Koran 8.55]

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Alphaape, how could you miss the difference between general trends and individual cases and still get out of high school? Or haven't you yet?

Seriously, these discussions always fall apart on very basic fallacies like this.

The other popular fallacy is demonstrated by bushlover and sailwind, who would swear to almighty heaven that they have isolated a very complicated issue to one single element, and there is nothing more to say. Daft. And we have been through this umpteen times.

There are a few reasons to explain why Islam has been with us for over a thousand years but Islamic terrorism is mere decades old, and no, it is not the poliferation of the AK-47 nor even mass printing of the Koran. One of the several reasons is poverty, and more importantly, AWARENESS of one's own poverty contrasted by AWARENESS of the affluence of others, not to mention both AWARENESS and MISCONCEPTION of the relationship between the two. But that has far more effect in generating the foot soldiers of terrorism and not the masterminds.

But there are more compelling reasons than poverty, and Islam does play a part, a small part. FAR more important is certain interpretations of Islam by particular followers, and it is not remotely fair to blame millenia old Islam for either recent popular interpretation nor interpretations by crazy people in the last few decades. The masses tend toward a great many fallacies you know, and that makes their interpretations of most anything suck for air.

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Wow, these terrorists need some new PR people.

If it's money they're after, maybe they should try adding the phrase "unless you give us one million dollars" to their bomb threats.

Or how about declaring a "poorhad" on the West. "Jihad" sows the misconception that this is about religion.

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Altria: If it's money they're after

They are not after money. They are bitter and seeking payback of a different kind. The effects of poverty can often be irreversible, such as loss of family when you could not afford medicine, or even violent deaths for living in poverty stricken areas.

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Alphaape, how could you miss the difference between general trends and individual cases and still get out of high school? Or haven't you yet?

likeitis, I made it out of high school, undergrad (BS in Engineering), and grad school. So let's take a look at your statements:

One of the several reasons is poverty, and more importantly, AWARENESS of one's own poverty contrasted by AWARENESS of the affluence of others, not to mention both AWARENESS and MISCONCEPTION of the relationship between the two. But that has far more effect in generating the foot soldiers of terrorism and not the masterminds.

I guess you are probably now aware that Osama comes from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. So his drive to cause tension in the west is probably not for the lack of his affluenece but because he does not like the ideals of the west.

I can tell the difference between general trends can you. Take a look at the 19 hijackers on 9/11. Some of them had come to America to study, or had student visas to study abroad. So I would say that they may not have been as "sown and out" if they were able to somehow manage to study abroad in Europe and America, and for that matter be able to gain admittance in western schools if indeed they come from such poor areas where a basic education couldn't be afforded.

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There are a few reasons to explain why Islam has been with us for over a thousand years but Islamic terrorism is mere decades old,

Yes, but the "reasons" offered by the multi-culti crowd here are done in complete and blissful ignorance of Islam, its mission, and the violent example set by the cult's founder.

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Typical PC nonsense.

Did poverty fuel the 9/11 and 7/7 suicide bombers, all of them wealthy middle-class kids, often driving Benzes and going to university? Does poverty fuel OBL, a member of one Saudis richest families?

Conversely, are Tibetans, among poorest in the world, known for declaring Jihad on the infidel world?

The "study" was commissioned with a pre-determined outcome.

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WilliB

The "study" was commissioned with a pre-determined outcome

Can you prove that? Or are you going to be among the non-sense ones?

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Study: Poverty fueling Muslim tension with West

They would do much better to focus on the stagnating effect sharia has on every economy it has come to.

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how many Muslim countries are ruled by kings? About 80% with the rest being ruled by clerics. If they got a poverty problem, the west is the least of their problems.

Nope. This study fails and the people who conducted it should not receive any money for providing it and fired. They didn't just become poor over the last few years, many in those countries have always been poor. So why is poverty a problem now?

I don't see Haitians going Jihads against the powers to be and killing people at random.

Besides, I thought once you found god, you needed nothing else.

Nope, skip's study reports that Religion is the problem.

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skipthesong: good points.

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Take a look at your Gallup researcher:

http://www.watan.com/en/the-community/486-obama-appoints-the-first-muslim-american-woman-head-of-gallup-as-advisor.html

Trust a hijab-wearing muslima to produce an objective study about muslim tensions with the west! This is just so typical.

By the same token, why not commission the Communist Party to do an analyis of Cuban relations with the West.

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Why don't those kings of those lands start giving up some of their wealth?

I know. How about we start giving money to smaller groups there, help them over throw their kings/clerics.....oh, I forgot, the about the last time we did that.

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This study sounds like a load of crap! Why? Because just look at those poor, poverty stricken terrorists who killed our innocent people on 9/11, mostly RICH Saudis! I don't think these guys were starving for food, but more like sick and twisted brainwashed fools starving to live up to Osama binladen's idea of martyrdom and what, 70 hot virgins waiting for you in the Muslim part of heaven???

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Some of you guys do need to study History some more. Only a blind man can not see beyond 9/11 itself to know that there was more than simply 19 rich terrorists behind that ugly act.

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And what would you expect, 19 poor uneducated men coming to US to make their bravata heard worldwide? gimme a break...

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Alphaape: I guess you are probably now aware that Osama comes from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia.

I guess you are not aware that you made the EXACT SAME fallacy as I called you on before. I guess its not really all that important to engineering, but still...

Further, my post clearly states:

But that has far more effect in generating the foot soldiers of terrorism and not the masterminds.

Or, do you consider bin Laden to be a foot soldier?

I can tell the difference between general trends can you. Take a look at the 19 hijackers on 9/11. Some of them had come to America to study, or had student visas to study abroad.

Same fallacy. Third time.

Look, this is about run-of-the-mill terrorism; garden variety blowing yourself up in the marketplace in your own country, stuff like that, NOT the major terrorism headlines of specific years in western countries that experience considerably less terrorism.

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LostinNagoya: Some of you guys do need to study History some more. Only a blind man can not see beyond 9/11 itself to know that there was more than simply 19 rich terrorists behind that ugly act.

While I totally agree with your sentiments, I do not think the problem is a lack of history study. Its a condition many of my countrymen suffer from which could be called I-am-the-center-of-the-universe syndrome that most other countries cure their kids of by around age 5.

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Look, this is about run-of-the-mill terrorism; garden variety blowing yourself up in the marketplace in your own country

Duh. Also your adopted country.

NOT the major terrorism headlines of specific years in western countries that experience considerably less terrorism.

Double duh. This is specifically about terrorism by Muslims in western countries.

But still, its about statistics and general trends, not individual and unique cases.

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LostinNagoya: Some of you guys do need to study History some more"

Why, so we could argue more, my history against yours? No. This is about now. I could careless what happen in the past. I wasn't part of a damn thing.

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likeitis:

LostinNagoya: Some of you guys do need to study History some more. Only a blind man can not see beyond 9/11 itself to know that there was more than simply 19 rich terrorists behind that ugly act.

While I totally agree with your sentiments, I do not think the problem is a lack of history study. Its a condition many of my countrymen suffer from which could be called I-am-the-center-of-the-universe syndrome that most other countries cure their kids of by around age 5.

Bingo Likeitis! Some guys here think that killing the messenger of the problem will get them rid of the problem, as the saying goes...

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as we see now in Gaza, for example) to be taken into consideration when you look what motivation was behind those hijackers." I'll try to remember that when I go to NY, as I do every September and visit friend's families and several commemorations. Yes, everyone at the company had something to do with Gaza and what ever happened a hundred years ago, including those of my co workers who were Muslim.

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Skip: like you, I think that everybody that died on that terrible day were innocent. They didn´t have to die that way.

Now, are you going to keep mourning for the rest of your life? Or do you want things like that never to happen again? Well, I do. That´s why we should stop whining and act, talk, like we are doing now.

And in my opinion, the reasons that made those 19 men to decide to take such a bloody, criminal action should be talked.

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Personally, my sympathy for the Mohammedan world has about reached its limit.

I see the way they treat their own kind and I wonder where the hell they get off criticizing free democracies, Xtians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.

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History certainly has something to do with people's behavior. But we have to learn to live together and give each other the dignity each one deserves as a child of God (At least the Universe). Our structures in society and we, as individuals, have to support this. Evil builds upon evil and who knows where it starts. I remember in Belgium signs saying "No North Africans Allowed". Why I asked and they said because "we, the Belgiums, have been here for thousands of years. The North Africans do not change! You Americans have no history." All I can say is thank God for America, even though it has its issues as well. I fail but I keep trying to give each the dignity they deserve as children of the same Universe (perhaps God). Structures in society must evolve to protect the dignity of all people. Having a job helps.

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why can not keep using history as an excuse.

lost: every year on my anniversary, which is why I wasn't there that day - I got married two days before and we were in Puerto Rico, I can't help but mourning. I mourn more when I start seeing things like this that someone's poverty is the reason and I am supposed to find reason and understanding?

I recall someone saying that no matter how hard you have it, someone has it worse, and there are a lot of other people in the world who have it worse than Muslims; Hindus, probably one of the most peaceful people on earth and with very little corruption, have it worse and they ain't taking anything out on anyone.

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"joblessness and poverty"

Whose fault is this?

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Surveys of this kind normally produce the answers the survey taker wants so I don’t really take it seriously. It is a Muslim whitewash because that was what was wanted. I’m not going to get that bothered by it because in a few weeks there will another one that tells us something different. Some points that do however need looking at are that the survey was taken mostly in western countries, not in Muslim countries where most of the terrorist come from. Yes I know the London bombers were home grown, not so Madrid or the 9-11 teams. But then I’m talking about all the terrorists not just the big name ones. What we needed was a survey that took into account Muslin attitudes across the planet. After all integration should be two way. What about none Muslims living in Muslim countries? As for this argument that poverty creates terrorists, in some ways that has to be true, happy well off people tend not to turn to violence because they have too much to lose. On the other hand to point at the rich kids that turn into terrorists & say “but they aren’t poor so it can’t be true” is a total nonsense. Children from well off families have always had the time & money to become involved with extremism, look at the all the urban terrorists of the 1960s/70s in Europe & America. They may have come from money but they could still see the inequality in the world & acted on it, (Rightly or wrongly). Having a good life does not blind you to the wrongs in the world.

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"joblessness and poverty"

Whose fault is this?

I do not know. The great depression answered the question for many. They did not know either but needed help and planted a lot of trees.

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The backlash in Europe is not going to come from Muslims against “none Muslims”, shall we take a great political risk & call them “whites”, it’s going to come from whites against Muslims. The survey shows quite understandably that most Muslims find western countries a good place to be, by comparison to their own home lands. The simple grass roots economics of the average family is now under pressure because of the financial crises across the world & it is what those people see happening in their own countries that is starting to create the real stresses. Laws are being enacted in Europe to protect none indigenous groups that do not at the same time protect the indigenous people. At the same time government & media are whipping up the paranoia of Muslim terrorists. To the simple minded these are the same people being protected by these new laws & that contradiction is not only unsettling but also feeds into Rightist propaganda. So a poor indigenous group see themselves being side lined in their own country in favour of people that they believe to be the root of terrorism. Government & media manipulation of the population have a lot to answer for here. This survey proves nothing, no more so than anything that I have just written, there simply isn’t a single truth & it is because we with open minds that try to understand that we are going to lose in the face of Islam. Reason always loses to unthinking brute force.

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grafton: War of all against all. When the Earth has enough for all. A shame on reason for sure.

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Despite their desire to belong, only a small number of Muslims questioned in Britain, for example—10%—consider themselves integrated into British society."

I personally think many non-muslim countries have come a long way in trying to accomodate them with KFC for examle serving food for them, banks doing practice in accordance to them...

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Well poverty and nutcase clerics who inspire their youth to kill.

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Poverty IS fuelling this tension because poor uneducated muslims are being recruited to wear suicide belts to take out others because the rich spoiled muslim kids can buy their way out of it and send in the poor cannon fodder. occasionally the rich kids want some of the glory too like in 9-11 so this poverty thing is only partially correct. I think it's Stupidity that is actually fuelling this tension. Stupidity of the clerics for 'interpreting' the Koran like they do and stupidity of 'true believers' to actually fall for this crap. These muslims poor or rich and educated have blamed everyone but themselves for their own folly. Truly stupid people.

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Poverty fueling Muslim tension with West, then they need to bomb their leaders homes and not ours. After they replace their current leadership then they can end the corruption in their countries.

They end the corruption then their new leaders can get better deals with the foreign companies. After that they get better jobs and bango they are making money and getting their kids some education.

Hell after they get their kids to better schools they will stop blowing themselves up.

Education is the key, have an uneducated population that is only taught by religious fanatics and you will have uneducated fanatics.

Same thing has happened in the United State with people like Paul Hill and the army of god. Uneducated religious fanatics that committed terrorist crimes.

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Need also to compare literacy rates and examine causes for the near universal inability of Mohammedan cultures to produce original thinkers.

S Korea, a small and relative latecomer to the globalized marketplace, has churned out more patents in 20 years than the entire Mohammedan world has in the last 200 years.

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teleprompter, that says it all. Useless people versus capable people will always breed jealously. Truly petty people of the wrold.

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"petty people" LOL. What is poverty?

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I think lifestyle is varied, and often named as poverty.

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" S Korea, a small and relative latecomer to the globalized marketplace, has churned out more patents in 20 years than the entire Mohammedan world has in the last 200 years. "

Not to mention tiny Israel. The Mohammedan world is fundamentally stuck in medieval Arabia, because that is what its ideology prescribes as Gods will how the whole world should live. But rather than recognize that, we take the Bromide as produced by Dalia Mogahed and pretend if we just throw enough money at it, the problem with islam will go away.

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patents, huh. Thats interesting. Patents bend time in a sense. You patent the future economical moves. All I hear about Islam, is about dealing with the Now. Is this the problem?

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A shameful conclusion with a liberal agenda in nature. Please read the Koran and try to see the real intent of Islam. Economic problems are everywhere, but the Buddhists, Hindus... naming a few; do not plot against the West. What happen to the mighty petrol money for the rest of Islamic world? Cultural, Economics, and Education (try science) are some of the factors of discontents among Muslims all over the world. Japan, China, and now India has worked hard for the progress toward modernity. Any lesson here, anyone?

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