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Sudan judge orders pregnant Christian woman to hang for apostasy

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She was abandoned by her Muslim father at the age of 6, and raised by her Christian mother in her own faith. Putting aside the inherent absurdity of apostasy laws being enforced in the modern era, there isn't even a "choice" here: she was never "Muslim" to begin with. But apparently the court believes it not only has the right to retroactively assign religious status to a person, but to execute them as well... unadulterated barbarity. I'd say this was medieval, but Muslim nations were actually much more liberal and enlightened (relatively speaking) in the actual middle ages...

13 ( +13 / -0 )

Really doesn't help to give us much hope for the future of the human civilization. It's all about groups and money and fear of losing members of groups. How pathetic religion can be.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

this news is both tragic and high disturbing. The outrage it would be if something similar would happen in the west. All muslims would be up in arms.

Now, one question though. Why didn't the woman just lie and say she would become a Muslim and then take the first chance to get out of the country?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

This still exists in the world.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

I'm very glad I wasn't born in Sudan.

Can we please stop bombing these countries and build schools, hospitals, roads, etc to bring them into the 21st century?

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Religion has been a moral compass in USA for nearly 2 centuries since the USA founding. I think Christianity and Jewish faiths are a beneficial belief for many of the followers. It saddens me to see the 10 Commandments removed from courthouses. God from schools, ect....

The increase in Islam worldwide is disturbing to me. It seems to be a faith on intolerance and oppression. With many of the faith members ruthless and brutal to tother faiths. Woman are objects not human in some beliefs. Just terrible.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

Are you so unsure and harbour secret, nagging doubts about your particular version of made-up nonsense that you feel the need execute those who don't share your deluded beliefs? What if this lady is right after all, and you are wrong? Can you live with the torment of perpetually wondering if you have wasted your life believing the wrong nonsense?

The judge clearly has doubts about his religion and should be arrested for heresy.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

The outrage it would be if something similar would happen in the west. All muslims would be up in arms.

That's just the thing, according to Islam, they are correct and everyone else is an infidel worthy of death.

7 ( +10 / -2 )

Can anyone name any other religion that consistently perpetuates such sickening methods of persecution and coercion to maintain on a world wide basis? I've never been arrested for not going to a church, synagogue, Buddhist or Hindu temp let alone condemned to death. Islam, winning hearts and minds the world over, through blood, threats of violence, and death.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

@bfg

The Koran states, very clearly and without any kind of prevarication:

"Believers, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans - whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret."

So no, "Islam" doesn't think every one else is worthy of death, only some who follow a twisted version of their faith. We in the west shouldn't forget it.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

@Luca

The Koran states, very clearly and without any kind of prevarication:

"O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah . And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment.

The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]."

2 ( +5 / -2 )

'Religion has been a moral compass in USA for nearly 2 centuries since the USA founding'

The women burned alive for witchcraft were victims of that 'moral compass'. Islam is still destroying many societies because many still hold to the barbaric ideas of a book written in more barbaric times. Civilised societies have either abandoned religion or have chosen to ignore or been forced to ignore its more unsavoury aspects by secular law.

-1 ( +8 / -9 )

Triumvere;

" She was abandoned by her Muslim father at the age of 6, and raised by her Christian mother in her own faith. Putting aside the inherent absurdity of apostasy laws being enforced in the modern era, there isn't even a "choice" here: she was never "Muslim" to begin with. - See more at: http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/sudan-judge-orders-pregnant-christian-woman-to-hang-for-apostasy#sthash.x91hfZzp.dpuf "

Wrong. Should read up on Shariah law. Under Shariah law, every child of a muslim father is muslim, period. And the penalty for leaving islam is death. The Koran and Haddiths are clear on that. Of course, in our Western moral system this is a terrible concept, but this is Shariah law, and the Sudan judge is simply enforcing it.

Rather than picking on this particjular incident, we should look at the broader picture and resist the creeping intrusion of Shariah law into our societies.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Sick and twisted.

She believes in one God, the God of her father and her mother. She believes. She is a believer. There is no God but God, as it is said in Islam.

At the very least there is strong benefit of doubt regarding this apostasy accusation.

100 lashes will likely kill her unborn baby, innocent in anyone's eyes.

The judge will be a murderer for many reasons. Even if the mullahs and radicals are happy with his verdict, Allah will surely not forgive him.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

'Religion has been a moral compass in USA for nearly 2 centuries since the USA founding'

Well, no. The witch trials you mention were held in 1692, 84 years before the USA was founded. All the participants -- witches, judges and the rest -- were subjects of the King of England.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Quote GalapagosnoGairaishu, 'were subjects of the King of England'

Well, no. To pick nits, they were subjects of William and Mary, equal sovereigns, during the time of the coregency.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

CokeBill:

" Can we please stop bombing these countries and build schools, hospitals, roads, etc to bring them into the 21st century? - See more at: http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/sudan-judge-orders-pregnant-christian-woman-to-hang-for-apostasy#comments "

Sorry, but building schools and hospitals will not stop Shariah law. Fwiw, Brunei has generously equipped schools and hospitals, but the Sultan of Brunei has just introduced Shariah law there. And by the way, nobody is bombing Sudan.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

That's just the thing, according to Islam, they are correct and everyone else is an infidel worthy of death.

This is pretty much what it boils down to. If one is to read the Koran, one will notice that there is a stress on violence and an intolerance towards non-Muslims. It has nothing to do with "extreme" interpretation or what have you; the Koran makes it clear that non-Muslims are to be treated differently than Muslims. The so-called "extremist" is merely following what Mohammed has commanded him. One can pick up a Koran and read for himself.

The Koran states, very clearly and without any kind of prevarication:

"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity.

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

From the Hadith:

The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause.' Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force.

Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

the Messenger of Allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah'

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Lucabrasi The kind of barbarism exhibited here is all too often dismissed as a 'perverted' or 'twisted' reading of the scriptures while it is often unacceptable to point out that much of what is perverted and twisted is clearly stated in the text itself. The sentence of death for apostasy is twisted only insofar as you accept that the injunction itself is twisted. The idea that the Koran or any other holy scripture is the word of god or divinely inspired must be dispensed with.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Jimizo

I like your posts and tend to agree with pretty much everything you say, but I have to ask how well you know the Koran... forget the hadiths, which were compiled hundreds of years after Muhammed's death.

The Koran explicitly states that apostates who join groups opposed to and fighting Islam should be killed. Apostates who don't actively fight against Islam are to be left alone. It's all there in black and white for anyone who really wants to know. Sorry, no time to provide a reference but I certainly will do later.

And I agree completely that scripture isn't the literal word of God. I'm a Christian but recognise the laughable nature of parts of the Bible....

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Lubracasi:

" Apostates who don't actively fight against Islam are to be left alone. It's all there in black and white "

I have to ask you how well you know the Koran. Can you name the verse you quoted, and locate its chronological order? Because I am sure you realize that the Koran contains a number of contradicting commands, with the later (more aggressive) Medinan verses abrogating the earlier (more tolerant) Mekkan verses?

Surely you are not ignorant of the concept of abrogation ("nasq") and are quote Mekkan veses which are abrogated and thus invalid? Please confirm.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Civilised societies have either abandoned religion or have chosen to ignore or been forced to ignore its more unsavoury aspects by secular law.

So then what would you call the U.S. or South Korea, Israel and quite a few countries in Europe Italy and more that do have a strong religious belief system? They are all ignorant? But societies that ignore religion are well off? That is a completely bias and subjective argument.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sudan represents Islam about as well as a panel of Spanish Inquisitors represent Christianity. Indeed, I am afraid countries such as these would not be any less backward if they all converted to Christianity tomorrow, and even then not for years. Or centuries.

The real problem is that these are backward, primitive people. I am afraid that if they did not even have Islam to keep them in check, they would be doing far worse.

I wish the woman would just lie and repent and save herself and her baby. It worked for Galileo, and not, it was not Muslims itching to burn him.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

The idea that all religions are the same is nonsensical. You have to look at the content. There are deeply religious societies like Bhutan or Tibet, where no such thing as the concept of killing apostates or taking sex slaves in the name of religion exists. The Shariah and Jihad that Boko Haram practises belongs to only one religion. Other religions might theoretically have similar concepts, but I can not think of one.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

@Bass 'So then what would you call the U.S. or South Korea, Israel and quite a few countries in Europe Italy and more that do have a strong religious belief system? They are all ignorant? But societies that ignore religion are well off? That is a completely bias and subjective argument.'

Read what I said again. Progressive societies such as Sweden have basically abandoned religion. The US for example hasn't abandoned the bible but has chosen to ignore its more vicious aspects such as executing homosexuals, adulterers and rebellious teenagers. Some Islamic societies such as Sudan don't take such a selective approach and do what the book says. Sadly, many in the US have also chosen to ignore the better preaching of Jesus with regards to materialism and love of money. The phrase 'cafeteria Christianity' suits perfectly.

@Luca 'forget the hadiths, which were compiled hundreds of years after Muhammed's death.'

Unfortunately, many Muslims don't forget the Hadiths which contain appalling injunctions.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Religion, invented by man to control man. In the end nature has the final say.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@papigiulio

"Now, one question though. Why didn't the woman just lie and say she would become a Muslim and then take the first chance to get out of the country?"

She is a Christian. She cannot betray her God. As Christ Himself said (Luke 12:9):

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Besides, to lie as a sin to a Christian.

@driftnet

"I wish the woman would just lie and repent and save herself and her baby. It worked for Galileo, and not, it was not Muslims itching to burn him."

See my answer a few lines above. And by the way, Galileo was not urged to renounce Christ. He was only urged to change his views on the composition of the Solar system, which are two completely different things.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@Bass As usual you don't address the point. I think it is a good thing that the majority of religious people in the US pick and choose which parts of their holy book it is convenient to follow and which is either too difficult ( give all you have to the poor, rich people can't enter the kingdom of god, take no thought for tomorrow ) or just plain sinister. That is a great improvement on the religious fanatics and butchers in Sudan who tend to follow their different holy book more closely. One of the reasons why the US is not a backward, intolerant country like Sudan is that even its religious people don't follow what their Bronze Age scriptures tell them to do. Militant Islam is the most dangerous strain of religion at the moment, but if Christians and Jews followed their texts as closely, we'd have something similar. Give me hypocrisy over fanaticism any day.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@Jimizo

Give me hypocrisy over fanaticism any day.

Fanaticism as a concept is also open to interpretation. When you believe in God Almighty, you also believe that he is the supreme authority. And His word is above any worldly being's concern.

but if Christians and Jews followed their texts as closely

The problem is that you equate the Bible and the Koran, which is a false premise. They are not equal in any way. The Bible is not a violent book, and the religious practices of the Jews and especially Christians are peaceful.

The Torah has certain rules that have applied long ago, applied only to Jews that lived then, and apply no longer to the Jews that live today. So it is pointless to start quoting some lines from the times of thousands of years ago. That applied then, something else applies now. The spirit of the Torah is peaceful.

The focus of Christianity itself is the New Testament, that preaches about love and brotherhood in God, nothing about violence in there.

The Koran is a totally different production, with direct incitement to violence against anyone who believes differently.

How can you compare?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Islam has become a problem worldwide. It is not a peaceful religion as we see in headlines daily. It is oppressive to women. It is not tolerant of other beliefs. AND, it is thriving in some regions of the world.

That said most Muslims do live a peaceful life however they do not stand up and reject the "radical" movements as vocally as they should. Precious few actually do.

@Jimzo...many, many people need religion in USA. It is a comfort zone for them. The vast majority live good lives and are productive to society. You claim a deviation from the Bible, that could be the case but keep in mind the vast majority. I want religion here in USA!

Oh, and what nation IS the most charitable on the planet? Is it because of religious abandonment? More adoptions, more monetary donations in world catastrophes.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I sentence you to be hanged,”

In the Islamic world Judge Abbas Mohammed Al-Khalifa won't be forgotten. As he sat himself on the throne of Allah, thinking he had the right to condemn a fellow human being to death for being a human being. Creating another martyr at the same time. It's not just surprising to see convictions dating back to the early middle ages, or maybe even further back, shocking even, still survive. Muslims all over the world will have to deal with the radicals amongst them, the radicals, extremists who have no respect for humanity, human rights, human life. They may be a minority, but a cruel, misguided one.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oh, and what nation IS the most charitable on the planet? Is it because of religious abandonment? More adoptions, more monetary donations in world catastrophes.

Exactly! U.S. is still by far THE most generous country when it comes to as you said, adoptions, donations and humanitarian aide. Even when the country is in financial ruins, people will still dig deep in their pockets, religion has helped us to be kinder towards our fellow man, doesn't mean we are perfect far from it, but progressives are the least giving when it comes to the above mentioned and study after study has shown that.

By the way, how many muslims adopt children or give aide world wide? Radical Islam gives a lot towards terrorism and what else?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

'Fanaticism as a concept is also open to interpretation. When you believe in God Almighty, you also believe that he is the supreme authority. And His word is above any worldly being's concern.'

The problem is where does that 'word' come from? The bible? Your claim that the laws of the Torah are now annulled isn't shared by those I would regard as fanatics. How often do Christian and Jewish fanatics justify their homophobia and misogyny with references to the Jewish bible? Christians now try to get around the evils of the Jewish bible or jettison it altogether but it was extremely useful in justifying the crusades, the inquisition and witch-burning. Slavery was supported by reference to the bible, although others used it to offer a contrary view which among other things shows how contradictory the 'word' is. I thought it was a pity that Jesus didn't bother to preach about the evils of slavery which his father had no problem with.

As for Christianity preaching only love and brotherhood, it's strange that this concept of 'brotherhood' damns your 'brothers' to an eternity of hell if you don't follow Jesus, outlined by Jesus himself. The origin of anti-Semitism is also contained in the New Testament with the claim that the blood of Christ is on the hands of all Jews and their descendants. We all know what that led to, with Hitler himself explicitly referencing this to Christian Germany.

I'm truly glad that modern Christianity no longer follows the bible as the 'word' of god and we don't have to suffer like people in the past suffered under Christianity. Unfortunately, for many in Islamic societies like Sudan, they are still suffering due to taking religion too seriously.

@MarkG I know the US is a very charitable country but there are others. To take one example, if you look at data provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Aid, overall the US ranks highest, but for the amount given by percentage of GDP, the US ranks 19th. If you want to look at it in terms of overall contributions, godless, Communist China ranks second.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Why belief can be imposed?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Religion has been a moral compass in USA for nearly 2 centuries since the USA founding

I beg to differ. A far better moral compass has been a principled opposition to religious dogma regardless of what any scripture says. Case in point: the institution of slavery. For over a century, the vast majority of churches taught that slavery was biblically supported and justified. Opposition to it, to the extent that helping a runaway slave was "theft" of another person's properly, meant the person helping would go straight to Hell. (Read Twain's representation of the dilemma in Huck Finn.) In more recent times, the Bible has been used by many as justification for racial segregation.

The Bible is not a violent book, and the religious practices of the Jews and especially Christians are peaceful.

This is not true at all. The entire premise of the so-called "New Testament" is nothing but a threat. There is nothing at all peaceful about the prospect of being burned for all eternity if you don't accept a certain dogma. If people are going to claim that all Muslims are inclined towards violence as a result of some interpretations of cherry-picked verses, the same case can easily be made of the violence endorsed and practiced by Christ. Here are just four examples:

1) He comes to a fig tree wanting figs, but it is not yet the season for them. Finding none (naturally) he curses the fig tree and it dies. (Wanton destruction of life is against Torah.)

2) He admits that if his kingdom were of this world, his followers would violently fight for it.

3) He advises his disciples to get swords, and that if a person doesn't have a sword, they should sell their garments to be able to purchase one. (That doesn't sound like a peace movement to me.)

4) And perhaps the biggest one of all. Luke 19:27: "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

Right. Very peaceful indeed. Most Christians, thankfully, seem to overlook or interpret away those verses, trying to give others the impression that theirs is a religion of peace. It is no less true of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, just as the vast majority of Christians and Jews are.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

WilliB,

Wrong. Should read up on Shariah law.

I'm sorry, where in my post did I say the ruling was incorrect under Sharia? I didn't. This is what you get when you attempt to apply a medieval legal code to modern day life, and it's absurd.

For the record, I wouldn't want to live under biblical law any more than I would want to live under Sharia. And, I imagine, neither would you.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

“The fact that a woman has been sentenced to death for her religious choice, and to flogging for being married to a man of an allegedly different religion, is appalling and abhorrent,” said Amnesty International’s Sudan researcher, Manar Idriss.

Amnesty International has the most effective approach for ordinary citizens to become involved this: the kind of letter-writing campaign that has saved hundreds of lives around the world. The following link has the details on how to become involved in this urgent matter:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AFR54/007/2014/en/ffc8916a-01f8-43f3-be3c-87c91360fecb/afr540072014en.html

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Sudan judge orders pregnant Christian woman to hang for apostasy

Religions and their values shine through once more. Human life means nothing when gods and superstitions are at play.

Sudan judge orders pregnant Christian woman to hang for apostasy

To candy coat this with Political Correctness and Kumbayah hypocrisy would be tragic. This is a BARBARIC thing that Sudan as a nation is doing and whoever are responsible must be held accountable. This is murder for the sake of religions'.

I find it funny how folks are changing this into a "my religion is better than yours" fight. But, this doesn't change the fact that a woman is going to die because of a Dark Age/Medieval law.

Sick, disturbing and disgusting!

KotskyMay. 17, 2014 - 01:50AM JST

You spoke well in the defense of your beliefs, but I didn't read anywhere where you stated that you disagreed or agreed with Sudan's actions here.

So, I'll ask you, do you agree with Sudan's actions against this woman? It's a simple yes/no question no in between.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I beg to differ. A far better moral compass has been a principled opposition to religious dogma regardless of what any scripture says. Case in point: the institution of slavery. For over a century, the vast majority of churches taught that slavery was biblically supported and justified. Opposition to it, to the extent that helping a runaway slave was "theft" of another person's properly, meant the person helping would go straight to Hell. (Read Twain's representation of the dilemma in Huck Finn.) In more recent times, the Bible has been used by many as justification for racial segregation.

Spoken like a true athiest. I also beg to differ. I will keep this very short. I believe in our culture as Americans, that a good reason for a lot that is happening in our schools, way of life and the turmoils, the hatred and how our society is losing our morals is that fact that a some Americans are leaving religion. That doesn't mean you have to go door to door or to church or to temple, it's just the slow erosion in many of the troubled big cities. What you are going on about is how people USED to think for the most part. But you cannot say, prove or insist that people that are religious think the exact same way as 60 years ago. Christians and Jews have evolved since then.

This is not true at all. The entire premise of the so-called "New Testament" is nothing but a threat. There is nothing at all peaceful about the prospect of being burned for all eternity if you don't accept a certain dogma. If people are going to claim that all Muslims are inclined towards violence as a result of some interpretations of cherry-picked verses, the same case can easily be made of the violence endorsed and practiced by Christ. Here are just four examples:

Sorry Yabits, but it's not going to hold up. Our Christian, Judaeo laws are the fundamental pillars of what has kept us as a nation bonded. Now all these atheists want to take that right away and complain about saying Merry Christmas bothers them or they don't want you to say the word Easter? America has run completely amok with PC way, way overboard. You are NOT even allowed to think the way you want, because if you do, that is a crime. I have the absolute right to believe what I want as long as I don't inflict bodily harm on ANY individual, I can believe what I want and if that means I am against same sex marriage or I don't like minorities, that is my absolute prerogative.

1) He comes to a fig tree wanting figs, but it is not yet the season for them. Finding none (naturally) he curses the fig tree and it dies. (Wanton destruction of life is against Torah.)

Now what you are doing is taking the scriptures literally and NO one really does that. Compare that to radical Islamists that do. They take the Koran expand on the words and make up their own interpretations that fit and incorporate them within their rules and laws of Sharia.

2) He admits that if his kingdom were of this world, his followers would violently fight for it.

3) He advises his disciples to get swords, and that if a person doesn't have a sword, they should sell their garments to be able to purchase one. (That doesn't sound like a peace movement to me.)

4) And perhaps the biggest one of all. Luke 19:27: "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

Right. Very peaceful indeed. Most Christians, thankfully, seem to overlook or interpret away those verses, trying to give others the impression that theirs is a religion of peace. It is no less true of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, just as the vast majority of Christians and Jews are.

Very peaceful, there is no civil war or conflict or people in the U.S. or Europe trying to murder each other. So let me ask you a straight question. In the last 12 years how many Christians and Jews beheaded people, threw acid in little girls faces, Not allowing girls to have an education, death penalty for muslims that adopt Christianity, suicide bombings, honor killings, open and public executions, cut limbs off of people, kidnapped girls or better yet, Muslim girls from their families and tried to sell them off to the highest bidder. How many hijacked planes and murdered over 3000 innocent people, strapped bombs to themselves in the name of God, the father and the holy spirit, how many rounded up little boys and burned and mutilated their bodies. I can go on and on. There is NOTHING on the planet that even comes close to radical Islam. Yes, you have some crazy radical Christians and Jews, but it doesn't even remotely come close to what radical Islam has done! You give me a side by side comparison over the last twelve years of incredible radical off the wall violence that Christians and Jews have committed on the exact same scale with the same level of brutality and severity and indignation like the radical Islamists and I will clam up, but you can't and you know it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Willi

The Koran calls for the execution apostates who fight Islam but says:

"Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people." (4:90)

In other words, apostasy is fine if you don't join a group fighting Islam.

As for the problem of abrogation, it's not simple. Different groups have different opinions, and it's no surpise that the nastiest folk choose the harshest verses to justify their unpleasantness. Some Muslims deny its validity completely.

Abrogation is, anyway, kind of irrelevant, given that the Meccan verses are retained in the Koran. Why should that be if they've become null?

As in every religion, there are people of good will and people who revel in conflict and misery.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I could be wrong, but I do not believe the sentence will be carried out on this Christian woman. As has happened hundreds of times in the past, pressure from the world community in the form of thousands of letters will have an impact. Many hundreds of those letters will come from people whom self-righteous hypocrites would call "atheist," while at the same time these religious hypocrites won't lift a finger to help her.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@zaldaus

See my answer a few lines above.

Yes, its a good answer, but only serves to highlight how unjust this God individual is.

Or if not, then true believers should not complain so much about her upcoming demise. After all, like this, she will go to Heaven, go straight to Heaven, will not even pass go and who needs 200 dollars in Heaven? Early Christians sure did not seem to have a problem with even crucifixion. They were the true believers.

And by the way, Galileo was not urged to renounce Christ. He was only urged to change his views on the composition of the Solar system, which are two completely different things

You are splitting hairs. Many times in history people have interpreted their Abrahamic religions as God given rights to try and force people to recant their beliefs under a very real threat of death. What precise beliefs they are is hardly worth mentioning.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

yabits

" I could be wrong, but I do not believe the sentence will be carried out on this Christian woman. As has happened hundreds of times in the past, pressure from the world community in the form of thousands of letters will have an impact "

You are dreaming. Why should the Sharia court in Sudan care about hundreds of letters from infidels, or even one of them? They are enacting god`s law, what infidels think about it does not interest them.

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Yabits:

" If people are going to claim that all Muslims are inclined towards violence "

Strawman. Nobody can speak of "all muslims". A lot of muslims live in countries where strict islam is not being practised. But we can clearly speak about the laws of Sharia, and those who practise them. And yes, the application of Sharia means violence of the most abhorrent form, this article reporting just one example.

" This is not true at all. The entire premise of the so-called "New Testament" is nothing but a threat. There is nothing at all peaceful about the prospect of being burned for all eternity if you don't accept a certain dogma. "

To compare that with islamic Shariah is a completely false anology. The Christian threat is that I will be punished by some god AFTER I DIE. Well, that is no skin off my nose, and I am sure not yours either. The islamic threat is that you are punished by a Sharia court HERE AND NOW. How can you compare that?

Lubracasi:

" The Koran calls for the execution apostates who fight Islam but says: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. (4:90) "

You are wong. That sura does not speak about apostates. If want to check what the Koran says about apostates, check out e.g. suras 3:72, 3:90, 16:106 or 4:137. The Koran is very clear that the punishment for apostesy is death -- as shariah courts all over the world also recognize.

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You are dreaming. Why should the Sharia court in Sudan care about hundreds of letters from infidels, or even one of them?

I was not dreaming when I personally met Maryam Rostampour and Marzieh Amirizadeh here in Georgia last summer. The two Iranian women were converts from Islam to Christianity and were caught distributing New Testaments in Tehran and were sentenced to death by an Islamic court for apostasy. While awaiting execution in notorious Evin Prison, the two received many thousands of letters of support. They credit the vigorous letter-writing campaign as the single-most important factor leading to their release and expulsion from Iran. (Their captors were amazed and even intimidated that so many thousands of people around the world were focused on their case. There are hundreds more examples of successful campaigns.)

In speaking with both of them, I asked what they felt about Islam. Both were emphatic in saying that, having been brought up in the religion they regard it with complete respect -- knowing that the vast majority of Muslims are good people. But that many also hunger, as these two did, for something which their faith did not give to them.

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yabits:

" They credit the vigorous letter-writing campaign as the single-most important factor leading to their release and expulsion from Iran. "

I think they are wrong. Their release was a calculated diplomatic move by the Teheran mullahs. I don´t see how Sudan is interested in anything like that.

Lubracasi:

" Abrogation is, anyway, kind of irrelevant, given that the Meccan verses are retained in the Koran. Why should that be if they've become null? "

Again, that is only your wishful thinking. Abrogation is actually described in the Koran itself (Sura 2:106). It states that whenever Allah revealed something new to Mohammed which contradicted earlier revelations, this would abrogate the earlier once. Hence, the later the sura is, the stronger it is. The latest, and therefore strongest, Surah in the Koran is Sura 9,. This abrogates all others. Does it surprise you that this is also the most aggressive and intolerant one?

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@Willi

Yes. But still those awkward Meccan verses appear in the Koran.

Why? Are we meant to ignore them?

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@Lucabrasi, please tell me how many muslim apostates you've talked to about the Qur'an. Ali Sina for one, and a whole lot of others can easily call you on your personal interpretation of the Qur'an. They were "born" into Islam and can tell you what you want to believe is a complete 360 from what Mohammed meant.

Faithfreedom org. Just send some letters to Ali Sina and other apostates from Islam so you understand what its like from the inside looking out, instead of the outside looking in.

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lubracasi:

" Yes. But still those awkward Meccan verses appear in the Koran. Why? Are we meant to ignore them? "

Yes, the Meccan verses appear in the Koran, but they are abrogated by the aggressive Medinan verses. Why they are there? You have to ask that to the islamic scholars. I suppose the answer would be that the Koran represents all the relevations that Mohammed received from Allah, so it should be complete. Besides, the Mekkan verses are very useful to deceive ignorant ifidels by quoting them wonderfully nice, but invalid verses, don´t you agree?

This practise of deceiving unbelievers is actually described in islamic doctrine. It is called "taqiyya" by Shiites and "Kitman" my Sunnis. I suppose you knew that.... or didn´t you?

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